You hit the nail on the head krusht. I'm twisting in the wind because I don't have a clue what to do right now. I've been thinking about the "set her free" thing too. But there has to be a *reason*. We have 3 kids that I do NOT want to put through that.

Some of the things she is saying sound eerily like what she said last time she started into an EA. One minute I'll think she's starting to cheat again, the next I'll think she's right and I just cannot meet her needs the way she wants. Maybe I really am so critical that she just cannot relax? I feel like I can never bring up anything or present any point of view that differs from hers. I feel like I'm constantly restrained. Once or twice in the past few months we've had a fight where she'll yell, throw things, curse, etc. I keep my voice normal and try not to LB but if my voice goes up the slightest amount she'll POUNCE! "Are you raising your voice to me!".

I could *swear* she's looking for things to be upset with me about. We're in a dance right now: "this is bothering me", "ok, then lets address that", "no thats just one little part of it", etc etc. "I'm just not sure", "I'm sorry". She has a habit of saying "I just can't do anything right" whenever there is the slightest disagreement. Heck, the other day the paper in our printer jammed and she did that. "Oh H, I'm so sorry, I just can't do anything right"... What is that all about??? I didn't say or think anything ill and just came over and fixed it; no issue whatsoever.

We have counselling again soon. She is not resistant to counselling so I'm going to see how it goes. My mindset now is the following:

- R talk is pointless or maybe even harmful (clingy, makes her feel trapped)
- Have to stop mentioning D or separation (also clingy, etc)
- Will try to continue to show affection and do the plan A stuff but keep it low key
- ILY on phone calls is getting wierd, should probably stop it.

She sure is keeping me off balance right now. Thanks for the replies and thoughts. Keep em coming!

SL, she is really fixated on the need for "space" right now. It is either:

a) another EA starting up, *or*

b) she feels smothered and controlled

It is probably (b). I've been telling her to relax and take some space and she has started to do that. I mean for the past year we've barely ever done ANYTHING apart.

However, I would *think* that if she was feeling (b) that when I told her to go and do things and she has started to, that she would start to feel better, start to "hug back" again, not be so stuck on this position of "I'm not sure about you". Instead, there is a new issue, the past emotional neglect, my "looks" if I get annoyed at her...

So I have gotten myself calmed down and back under control. No R talk, no talking about D or separation. Showing affection but keeping it low key and just having basic conversations with her. Read the Dobson book a couple more times (well skimmed it) and I'm definitely now feeling more self-respect and confidence and acting that way. I actually feel pretty good right now; no panic.

So, I haven't mentioned this in the thread yet because it would be so unbelieveable if it were true but this is what my gut is telling me: W is "interested" in our neighbor. Across the street is a family of 5 and I have sensed a lot of interest between my W and the H. I thought nothing of it for a while; they would chat in the front yard every so often and she would ask how his day was when he'd drive up if we were outside. I keep getting this wierd feeling though; on Halloween, she had our kids coming home to me begging *me* to take them out because W was chatting with the neighbor for so long. She's suddenly taken an interest in working out in our front yard!? Running up and down the hill, doing pushups, etc. Sunday she worked out out front, then spent all day out front washing the car (she *never* washes the car; she always takes it to the drivethrough!!!) Last night one of the neighbor kids came over and asked me to go paintballing with him and his dad on saturday. It seemed like once W heard that the dad was going she got real interested. Later she said "its not fair that *you* get to go". Oh, and he works an odd schedule so he's home on some weekdays too.

Either my W is CRAZY or I am... I know if I bring it up it'll be met with a lot of anger; she's already dropped hints in our other arguments about wanting to be able to talk to "whoever she wants" without feeling guilty.

But, I almost laugh thinking about it... Its ridiculous! How could she possibly... ? 6 kids involved? two families right across the street!? I must be wrong about this!!! My "gut" must be out of whack right!? Anyway as mentioned earlier, she also recently was able to get out of me that there is no more snooping at all anywhere in the house(!) I gave her the keylogger and told her thats all I had. She didn't really show compassion or happiness about the fact that we took that step (maybe the WS doesn't realize what a step it is for a BS to give up the means of snooping...)

What do you all think?

GET ANOTHER KEYLOGGER STAT!!!

Start snooping again! Do not tell her!

Your gut is probably right. BS's gut feelings usually are. She has a history, she has the opportunity-

snoop snoop snoop!

She is deep in fog, you realize that, don't you?

Yup, it will be very hard to snoop this though... I'll do my best. Thankyou MrsRob!

Hi Norm- Can I make an observation about your sig line? You are not in recovery yet. Your wife is still a WW. She's still thick in the fog. She still is not on board with making your marriage wonderful. She should not need space, she should not mind your snooping, she should not be angry when you state what you need to feel safe in the marriage.

I can't tell you how happy I was the other day when my BH gave me the code to check our answering machine! After 7 months <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. His comment, "well, I can see what you're doing online anyway." So he still doesnt' trust me but he's working on it. Baby steps, and I have to be all right with it- I'm the one who put us in this situation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Same with your WW.

You have to snoop and do whatever it takes to expose and get her out of the fog she's in.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but she has some serious growing up to do, as do all of us WW's- though I'm a F!!!WW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Everything about this thread SCREAMS that she's either still involved in an old affair or starting a new one. NG, you've been here a while. Go back and read your posts about the last week or so and think about what you would tell someone who just came here for the first time.

Tons of red flags.

"Needs space"
"I love you, but that's not enough"
"Insisting on 'privacy'"
"Resentful of your past behaviors"

I'd agree that you're 'snooping' isn't over. You need to get the keylogger going again. You need to go into full scale investigation mode, because she does NOT sound like she's on the up and up with you at all.

Well, I can't make up my mind but you're right, if it was someone else I would say its an A. Anyway, I've now got keyloggers and the phone is tapped. Don't know how I'll catch it if its the neighbor though unless it has gone way farther than I think.

So here's why I can't make up my mind what this is: In our discussions she talks about how she "deserved" to be spied on. She said she screwed up a lot. She says she is so sorry she hurt me. But she said she hurt for so long and she just doesn't want to try any more. She says our marriage was terrible since our first son was born. She says she wanted to leave so many times but couldn't because of the kids.

How much is rewriting of history? How much is her true hurt and resentment of me? I have no idea! But it is VERY confusing how close we seemed to be getting up until recently.

Maybe she is suddenly feeling guilt and trying to not take the blame in her own mind? I don't know... We *seemed* to be doing so well...

I think my best guess is that she has started falling into another A, is confused by this, and has to make me into a monster for it to be ok. But its just a guess...

She is *searching* for things to be upset at me about right now.

Now to change my sig line...

For reference, our marriage was not marked by any huge problems. We started out absolutely FABULOUS. We were so in love. Over the years we settled into the routine of taking care of kids and working and travelling to see relatives. Not much romance at all now that I think about it. At some point she did become depressed and I recall once asking for us to go to counselling which I tried to talk her out of (thought I was "cheering her up") and we didn't go. If you read the stories about the H neglecting the W, that was our marriage. I had no idea what was happening. I guess its the story we hear over and over.

Normal Guy:

Normal problems.

Lets start fixing them ok. Pull your head out and look around.

What are your Emotional Needs?

What are your WS's?

Your WS wants to get out more and see other men. Your M may be doomed. She may just be somebody who will never be comfortable with just you.

So.

What are you going to do?

Which EN of hers have you been missing the target on? Can you ever meet them?

Which EN of yours is she missing? Will she ever meet them?

Maybe I am outta line here, and maybe there is more info on another thread about your situation.

If so, please direct me to it.

Your W is getting ready to be the Thanksgiving Turkey for your neighbor.

And if I was that guy across the street, I would have it all. (six kids? Across The Street? No way! WAY!)

If she says that you can take the neighbors kid with your son to the paintball park, it's ON!

Remember, I am a WS. If the guy across the street is, or just needs a nudge to become one, when will it stop?

IMHO.

I don't think its needs that aren't being met; maybe resentment. Admiration maybe but no matter how hard I try to meet that one; she sees herself in a very poor light.

I'm not just sitting back; I am acting LG. I will drop unholy nuclear exposure on them if I catch anything and I really don't think I'll ever trust her again if this turns out to be true.

Thankyou to all the FWSs who given me their perspective on this.

NG:

I'm not talking about exposure here. That will come if needed.

But what is up in your Marriage?

Resentment occurs because ones EN's are not being met.

Lets start with yours.

Can you list them in order?

Norm,

Like OWL says,""Tons of red flags.""

LIKE....

Sunday she worked out out front, then spent all day out front washing the car (she *never* washes the car; she always takes it to the drivethrough!!!)

Is she in her own little world??

Now I got that car washing scene from "Cool Hand Luke" looping through my brain!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

kirk

<George Kennedy> "come on button....POP!"

lol
couldn't resist
JS

LG, after her EA that I found in May, we went into counselling and did the ENs questionaire. I might not have it 100% correct in memory right now but here they are.

W:
Family Commitment, Admiration, Conversation, Affection, Financial support.

Me:
Open & Honesty, SF, Affection, Family Commitment, Domestic Support

We've been spending tons of time reconnecting, gone on vacations, trying to meet needs left and right. BUT, she now says it was all an act. She says we were just going through the motions. Mechanical. There are no feelings. She just shut down completely about 2 weeks ago. At times I thought maybe something was missing but then the term "fake it till you make it" is thrown around a lot so I just kept going. MB recommends not bringing up the A so we had our big final "talk" about it and I have succeeded in leaving them in the past. I actually started to trust her, etc. I think recently things started to go downhill a little; maybe that has scared her. But I and counselling cannot get anything from her that we could change. Its like she says; she just doesn't know if she wants to be married.

I may LB more than I realize. Here is an example: last night, she was sitting on the couch watching TV, I start rounding up the kids for bed which is like chasing a herd of cats. One of them is looking for a school paper so we start going all over the house looking for it. Finally I ask the W, "have you seen this paper" (I have some small amount of frustration so it must have shown but I was trying *not* to show it), she says "what paper" and I said, "the one we've been looking for for the past 5 minutes". Now this was taken very hard by her. I immediately and profusely apologized but she gave me the cold shoulder. Said she *was* starting to feel better today but then this happened. Whew, it is sooo hard to be perfect when you're being completely rejected. I'm going to keep trying though.

Normal,

First of all that wasn't an LB. She should have been helping.

Second you can fake it until you make it. The worst thing is that when something isn't second nature to you it is hard doing it. As time goes on you will get better and it takes less effort.

Sounds like she doesn't want to do the work necessary to make it second nature.

You know last week the FWW and I had a convo. She asked me to throw some stuff away. Without argument I did. I mean she asked I did it. She asked if I wanted to know why and I said you can tell me but it isn't necessary.

Then came the kicker. She wanted me to quit SMOKING. Geez talk about some darn effort on this thing. I said OK I will.

To me that is how I have always been. She asks I oblige. The same cannot be said in return.

You can try all you want but until she decides to put both feet into this recovery it won't work.

I would say MC, and IC may be your answers.

Good luck.

Yup FNM. She was sitting there in another world. She wasn't even aware of what was going on. Anyway this event got stored away as another little piece of resentment and the Love Bank is NOT open for deposits.

MC is continuing but our appointment this week got preempted (very bad timing for us too!) She is still willing to go too.

Normal,

I feel for you. Since the first day you posted here I saw a parallel in your M and mine. You do realize I am hurtingless right? Name change. LOL.

Anyway. My FWW is somewhat the same. To me it seems like her LB is not open and yet I somehow keep making withdrawls. LOL.

I am getting a little frustrated with the MC right now because it is only going the way she will allow it to go. He is going against his normal methods because of her resistence.

I am a little tired because the issue that caused the deterioration of our M, which led to the A, which has led to her unremorseful and unrepentent behavior hasn't been worked out.

She still has a sense of entitlement. It almost seems as though she thinks you should change and she is great.

Look normal I know I had an A but that's because of you. Now if you change and I stay the same things will be great. LOL.

Not going to work. Hopefully she will see that.

Yeah I realize who you are HL :-) I am hopeful that counselling can pull us out of this current situation but I don't know. She is extremely withdrawn right now.

I'm feeling very bad about the snooping now. Doubting my gut again. Maybe I should just confront her.

Why is it snooping? Can you not have an honest marriage? What does she have to fear?

DON'T DOUBT YOUR GUT. My BH not doubting is what FINALLY got me started emerging from the all-encompassing fog.

Norm, YOU ARE THE ONE IN THE RIGHT HERE!!! Don't forget that!

Sorry for all the yelling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />. Sometimes a good guy like yourself needs a 2x4 to realize others are maybe in not so good a place.....