Say "hello honey!" and don't allow her to bait you into a fight. Ask her to end her affair with the OM.

I am a saint, that's how. He is a loser. He moved back to Boston without a job. He got lucky and found one a month after he moved back. She had to pay for most of the stuff they did together in NYC. He smoked pot right after his interview. Luckily, the company did not drug test before they hired him. He is the anti-Jim. I am an engineer that is extremely responsible and conservative. He is an artsy type that smokes pot recreationally and floats through life. He moved back to Boston with just his car and his clothes. He is a loser.

- Jim

My wife came home and she is pissed at me. She says we are definitely getting a divorce now. She is so mad that I told her boss (the affair started with a coworker who recently just left the company). She says that I crossed her boundaries and will never forgive me. Please advise on how I should move forward. She is REALLY pissed! How do I get through this. I thought I had hit rock bottom before, but now it is unbearable. Please help!!

- Jim

Jim, she is mad for all the RIGHT reasons, because you interfered with her affair. They always get furious and they always threaten divorce. And it always blows over once the affair is killed. So, stick with your plan, don't fight with her and don't let her anger bother you. Remember your goal here, it is to save your marriage by busting up her affair. NOT TO APPEASE and ENABLE her affair in order to avoid her anger.

Just tell her that you are so sorry she is angry, but you will do what it takes to save your marriage. Smile and pat her on the head. Don't try to reason with her and don't EXPECT any reason from her. You are dealing with the equivalent of a falling down drunk!

How are things this morning, Jim?

~ Marsh

Jim, would you mind if I get a little "flippant" here for a minute, just to make a point, not to maliciously hurt you?

I'll play poker against you any day in a "no limit" game if you react to a "re-raise" or an "all-in" bet this way.

You have three choices and only three choices, to extend your poker analogy. CALL the bluff and see how the cards fall, RERAISE to put pressure on your opponent and get them wondering if they really do have a "better hand" than yours, or FOLD the cards and walk off to a new hand or game.

If you sit down at a poker table, you sit down knowing that it might take a long time before the cards "turn in your favor." Be patient and enduring. Fold many hands, if needed, before "putting all your chips into the pot." Let the "opponent" think that you are a pushover and easy to "bluff," until you are READY.

Jim, you are fighting a war right now that you can't win. You are on the defensive, not the offensive, and your wife knows it. You have given her all your "playbooks" and she knows where you are strong and where you are weak.

First point, your actions are manipulative because you don't have them as part of a coordinated plan. You are using "bullets" that you like and just shooting them out there hoping that something will work. That's not a plan.

First thing, it doesn't matter if your wife has been having a Physical Affair and/or an Emotional Affair. I'm willing to bet that in your case the problem IS your wife and not the OM, so a different kind of strategy is needed.

Let's face it, in poker-like terms, you ARE in a "no limit Hold'em" game (your marriage) and you either win or you lose it all. IF you lose it all, you move on to the next "Game" (potential woman who might become your wife) or you "give up playing poker" to avoid potential further losses or "painful choices" where you lack absolute knowledge that you "can't lose."

Jim, you need to begin with yourself. You need to understand the differences between Boundaries and Standards. You need to understand what Emotional Needs ARE, and how you rate yourself as meeting your wife's emotional needs.

But you are fighting childhood issues with your wife. She needs counseling for those issues, as much as and perhaps more than, you need marriage counseling. Much of what she is doing is based in FEAR, and, of course, your past behavior has simply reinforced those fears to the point of giving her "justification" for looking outside of your marriage to get some of her needs (i.e., conversation) needed. IF we accept your assessment that the affair has not yet involved sex, it's only a matter of time before it does. BUT the real reason I tend to believe your assessment at this point is that your is using the OM to get ONE need met, conversation, and her "past" is deeply limiting her ability to relate on a sexual level. She see that as "surrendering" her "singlehood right of controlling the situation."

She has done the same with you. She gives you "mercy sex" to keep you placated, not because she enjoys sex or wants to meet your Emotional Needs for Sexual Fulfillment. This is, again, why I think (from the little you have written so far), that the issues are "in her head" and are related to her own family upbringing. YOU were, in college, an "escape" from all that. But now REALITY (i.e. marriage) have hit her and hit her hard. Marriage IS surrendering "self" in favor of spouse, and that is scaring the begeebers out of her. Add that fear your admitted "poor communication skills" up to this point, and in her head she is looking for "safe ground."

IF you truly love her and don't just want a "Trophy Wife," then get busy on the next few things "pronto Tonto";

1. Read and apply Surviving An Affair (Divorce Busters is good, but this the Marriage Builders approach that has worked for so many)

2. Read Torn Asunder by Dave Carder so YOU will gain a more thorough understand of the types of affairs and what you can do about them.

3. Learn "Reverse Babble" that you can read about here on MB, because some posters are experts at it.

4. CHOOSE to endure all, be patient like you've never understood or applied the word before, and wait for enough time to pass so that your wife can SEE the actual changes in yourself that you have made and not think that they are merely your attempts to "manipulate" her.

5. STOP any more exposure. You have done enough for now. That does not mean that you can't use exposure, when appropriate, in the future, but it's becoming counterproductive at this point, especially if the affair has not yet become physical.

6. Continue to learn all you can about the OM, your wife's contacts with him, etc. Build a file of facts. You may eventually throw them away, but you need to a)know the truth in order to know when she is lying to you; and b) to protect yourself legally from someone (both of them actually) who are acting "their own best interest" and could care less about you or how you get hurt.

7. Contact an attorney to seek legal counsel on legal separation in your State, "alienation of affection" suit possibilities against the OM, and potential protection in the event of a divorce.

Keep posting and keep asking questions. We ALL understand how tough it is to think clearly at this time and the sick desperation you are feeling emotionally.

You CAN do this. You CAN save your marriage. But YOU will have to "carry the load alone" for possibly a long time. Be Committed to the "long haul" if you choose to really try to save your marriage AND get your wife the "mental health need" she really needs to overcome her past family life history.

God bless.

She's not talking to me. She is, however, going to counseling with me today at noon. I'm under the belief that she will try to convince the counselor to convince me it's over. Not much in the way of expectations, but hey, who knows? As far as a plan, I had a plan and was sticking to it, but I was allowing her to continue speaking with Phil. At wasn't working because sometimes we would have a good time together, and then after she talked to Phil she would be a real (rhymes with witch). She wouldn't agree to no contact, so I felt I was forced into exposing the affair in an effort to end it once and for all. I am continuing plan A. I haven't made a love buster that I can think of since August. I even picked up Einstein's bagels for her this morning (she loves asiago cheese bagels). I am just going to try to meet her emotional needs for conversation slowly and wait this thing out. I don't think she'll leave the house and she just can't go to Boston. Any other advice? If not, I'll update you how counseling went.

- Jim

You're doing great, Jim. And you are right to be want to have her end all contact w/ OM. You will NEVER win her heart back as long as she is having contact w/ Loserboy.

Here's a list of do's and don't's another poster put together. I'm sorry, I can't remember who wrote this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP


Keep posting.

~ Marsh

What do I do now? She is on the phone with Phil after she updated her resume. Do I keep her from applying to jobs from our computer? Do I tell her to stop calling Phil? How do I get the affair to end?

- Jim

Tell her you dont want her talking to him. And ask her to hang up the phone. You can't force her to do it. But you can tell her that you think what she's doing is wrong.

Why don't you want her using your computer?

~ Marsh

Jim,

Have you considered giving Dr.Harley a call? He is a miracle worker. I'm sure he could help you put together a plan.

~ Marsh

I don't want her applying to jobs on the east coast so she can leave me.

I have already sunk tons of money (~$1000) into counseling and talking with Divorce Busters and books - I'm just flat broke right now, especially if I need to get a lawyer involved. I am hoping that there is enough experienced MBers out here to be able to help me formulate a plan for free.

- Jim

You can't force the affair to end, but you can insist she take her affair calls elsewhere out of respect for you. She shouldn't be calling her partner in adultery in front of her H; that is a boundary that should not be crossed. If she continues, turn up your music as loud as possible or do something to drown out the sound.

Let her use the computer. Applying for jobs means nothing.

Jim...

Please be assured that your exposure HAS done major DAMAGE to the affair...Affairs thrive in secrecy and now that it is no longer a secret it can NEVER be the same fantasy relationship it once was to them...Allow exposure to work it's magic, it will...You've done great! I would suggest actually speaking with his parents and enlisting their help to encourage their son to get out of his relationship with your wife...Tell them that you dearly love your wife and that you want very much to save your marriage...

You are also perfectly within your rights to tell your WW to take her affair conversation outside of your home...You can't make her do anything, but while she is talking to him, you can calmly repeat "please take your affair conversation outside of our marital home"...

I would also recommend that you invest in a voice activated digital recorder for her car...Snooping is in both of your best interests...It will let you know just what is going on now and it also lets you see firsthand just how fake this whole relationship is, which will help you in recovery...

Mrs. W

P.S. I don't know where he got it Marsh, but I do know that that is the list that Mr. W carried in his wallet during my affair...Great list...YUCK to my affair...

Hmmmm, I don't know what to tell you. I hope someone else can advise you here.

It seems as though she's bent on figuring out a way to leave you.

I think you should concentrate SOME on protecting your financial situation. You should get a hold of a lawyer.

Keep plan Aing her. And pray.

Read up on plan B, b/c if she leaves, you'll have to be ready w/ one.

~ Marsh

Jim - separate your bank accounts NOW. Beyond that, I will wait to hear what is said at the counselor's meeting.

But here is the "bottom line," as I see it. Your wife claims to be bent on divorce and joint marital counseling will avail you little if both parties are not willing to at least "try" to save the marriage.

So you need to operate on the basis that she WILL attempt to divorce you for whatever reasons she wishes to select as her "justification."

You separate the accounts in "preparation for her carrying out her threat." IF, in her mind, she is serious, then you are only beginning to "comply" with her already stated wishes.

You rigorously adhere to Plan A behavior for a maximum of 3 to 6 months, you set the schedule. IF the affair is not ended by that time and if she is still waffling on the divorce and ending the marriage, then enter "Plan B" where she will be left totally on her own and you are not subjected to continued emotional abuse from her....in order to preserve the love you have for her from further declining.

Jim, this is not for the emotionally faint of heart. If you can't "bring yourself to do these things," and you won't file for divorce yourself, then resign yourself to being her doormat anytime she chooses "self" over "marriage."

One other thing, we all know how each day seems like an eternity right now and you are desperately looking for the slightest encouraging sign. Jim, there won't be any as long as the affair is still going on. She doesn't need you for her emotional support, she has someone else to provide that need who equally could care less about the sanctity of marriage.

You need patience, endurance, and long-suffering willingness IF you really want to remain married to this woman. So start with that and ask yourself if you REALLY want to be married to her. If so, under what circumstances? IF the answer is you want to remain married to her, we will try to assist you all we can, but understand that the road may be looooooong before you can enter Recovery, let alone achieve a loving, Recovered, marriage.

God bless.

She is DEEP in the fog now. Now she is talking about her and OM loving each other and being together. All she said at counseling is how the marriage is over, she's contacting a lawyer, she's going to start looking for another job out east, and how she doesn't regret what she's done. She is worried about her job, however. The affair was just emotional when the OM worked there, but became physical after he left. I contacted her boss about the situation, but I also know a senior level person that can consult with her boss. I am going to try and make them force her to end the affair. What kind of legal action could be taken against the company? Is there any reference I can site where they must tell her to end it or risk losing her job? I'm going to start doing a job of plan A right now (I've been kind of sad and upset, but I haven't committed any love busters). Help please?!?

Yes, she is deep in the fog. How does she expect to pay for a lawyer when she doesn't even have a job lined up out there.

Of course she says it wasn't a PA while they were both working at the Company. Riiiiiight! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Keep this thread bumped up, so that the attorneys can read this thread and answer your legal questions.

You might want to change the title of this thread to read "I need legal advice!" Or something of that sort so they will see this.

Hang in there, Jim. We're all pulling for you.


~ Marsh

She has a job, she just doesn't make much money. She said if the divorce costs are too high, she'll just leave when she gets a job on the east coast and stay married to me. Of course I told her that her name was on the house and she is still legally obligated to pay for that. I just feel terrible right now. This is the first time that I actually doubted whether or not it will work out. She is extremely stubborn, so much so, she might just ruin her life because she decided she was going to leave me.

- Jim

Seems to me there is quite a bit going against her right now. She doesn't have enough $$ for an attorney. (She's just fog speaking when she talks about hiring one.) She doesn't have a job out East. But she does have a drug smoking pothead who is living w/ FOUR other people she can hook up w/. Good grief! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry you're going through this. There is ALWAYS hope for your marriage as long as you are willing to fight for it.

She is using her words to work "black magic" on you so you will give up and let her go. Don't listen to it.

A poster named LovingAnyway, drew this analogy for the WS who chases after the A., She said it was like Alice in Wonderland going down the rabbit hole. She's chasing a fantasy....it's totally NUTZ.

Keep bringing her back to reality.

I know you feel awful right now. It really sucks.

((((JIM)))))

~ Marsh