Luna,

Glad you are finding closure. What it seems like is when the BS find closure, the WS finds open wounds. Of course WS' don't like to suffer alone but giving it to the BS and family is no longer an option. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

Hi Orchid,



I was really surprised to continue to see at how much WS had not taken me seriously.... I knew he wasn't....given his numerous attempts.... testing waters.... taking it as a 'given' that I would 'come around'....I don't think he ever envisaged that it could be a 'permanent' thing.....LUNAMARE no longer being 'there' for him?..... nor how much it was all tied in to 'his' choices...

...as if the infidelity...was like an...ooops... I goofed...'spilled the coffee on shirt' attitude....so what? ... and EXPECTED me to get over it... and continue to be there for him....as usual.... I really felt he was 'stunned'....

In his mind...I felt...it was like...I will have LUNAMARE .... AND....OW.... it was never.... I will have LUNAMARE....OR....OW..... I really saw in his eyes...the impact.... like being 'hit' by a ton of bricks... just like a BS is hit....at D-day.... total disbelief!

Orchid....I now understand...what you mean by the 'being in sync' state.... that one little exchange....even though it broke PLAN B (although it just allowed me to reiterate PBL terms).....is what I needed ..... WS realizing this WAS NOT something I was prepared to overlook... I CHANGED the dynamics of our R....there WERE consequences to his actions..... is he prepared to pay the price?

I have done the most that I can.... I have waited long enough.... I do believe the pressure is on him again.... from both sides.... I do believe OW is putting pressure on WS to 'committ' further to her...to their R....and 'show her' he is serious.... and NOW he knows I am also VERY seriuos, too...

Again, he seems to have to again choose in which R he will invest.... but now....all the cards on the table!

He has a better deal with OW....very few conditions....as he can insist on contact with mother of his children...he is for now 'choosing' not to committ to living together...

With me...the conditions are much higher.... end of A with OW...or NO RELATIONSHIP under any terms (ie friendly co-parenting)....OTOH....I happen to be the mother of our boys!

..tough....tough....on WS....but then....he placed himself in that spot...he needs to figure out....what does he want....the MOST!

...actually....the very spot he was at the beginning of the A....just he couldn't see it, then, too much fog!

...I, OTOH....feel I have travelled far...on the personal recovery path!

It seems, Luna , that you are feeling empowered. You deserve all the credit for that, not the fact that you think WS is "getting it".

If WS'a getting it is what you're waiting for...don't bother. It only gives your power to him. Of course you want the marriage to have worked, your WS choose otherwise.

I say this, not in a harsh way but from personal understanding. Remember, my ex still will not admit he had a relationship, EA or PA, with his GF while we were married. Would I love to have have him admit that and that he's created for our boys a living situation neither of us wanted for them? Are there other things I'd like to see him "get"? Absolutely, but I can't afford, emotionally particularly, to let those desires dictate what I do and how I approach MY life and the lives of my boys.

I applaud you for taking back your strength. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Nams,



I 'get' what you are saying...LOL!

It was important FOR ME that I at least ATTEMPT to the best of my ability to 'get through' to WS....what the consequences of his choices would be....and that I would NOT be around...like he thinks.... that HIS choice did not involve just 'a bit more of coordination' with LUNAMARE re boys...FOR the plus of having OW in his life....

I am fine knowing that I have at LEAST attempted to communicate it to him.... whether or NOT it reached destination...or whether it will ever reach destination....is something else....and IT depends on him...and HIS state of mind!

I do know the exchange does make a big difference TO ME.... and bottom line...that matters...TO ME!

Yeah, Luna, I know what you mean about doing all you can for your own sake. I knew ex had one foot out the door, was more like bidding time rather than actually trying to repair our M but I had to plan A as if he were fully engaged.

Regardless of the outcome I know I did all I could to save our M and keep our family together, ex even said as much. Cold comfort.

Hi Nams,



How would you describe your relationship with your ex now, Nams?

We're cordial. We communicate about the kids and he leaves his R.V. in my driveway and in exchange he does work on my house. On occasion he will get angry about one thing or another regarding the boys and try to take a hard line with me. I manage to set him straight. I suppose if you were to ask the children they would see that we get along. We will both show up at school stuff, him not as often. I'm very flexible when it comes to him spending time with the boys. I'd like him to see them more and have always said yes if he asks for something unscheduled. He has accommodated some of my requests for changes too.

On a more personal level I don't respect him and try to be out of the house if he's here doing work. We have had some exchanging of information mostly about things we've shared in the past or people we've known. This can feel familiar but not good when you consider the end picture. He does manage to put himself and GF first and the boys feel that.

He's very good about always meeting his financial obligations and for that I'm grateful.

Hi Nams,

Thanks for your reply.

Looks like you have found a 'functional' common ground... so your ex is unwilling to 'come clean', even now?... glad to see though that it is not 'holding you back'.... you seem to have plans for your future....your work.... and open to 'dating'.... so good luck with it all, Nams.

I think I still have some 'processing' to do.... to learn to live with WHAT IS.... (as per BR)

Update.

I met with a lawyer today. So I am now aware what my the options are. Given the 2 years that WS has moved out...I can choose the divorce route or legal separation, and if I choose the legal separation route first and then divorce route, it will cost twice as much...

By law, seeing that there are children involved.... the court offers the option of several 'free' mediation session to 'iron' out the division of assets, etc. between us.... in fact...that is what WS said he would look into....to avoid a 'costly' division of assets through lawyers....(it is a fact... that neither of us has the means to pay lawyer's fee)

I am in PLAN B... said to WS that I would not 'meet and discuss' anything with him until OW is out of the picture.... and personally, unless the mediation can be done without us sitting together...ie not face to face...but back and forth between us...I would rather not be a 'willing' participant to it.....and if not, would I be willing to pay a lawyer an 'hourly' rate to negotiate on my behalf instead (money which I don't really have)?

Not yet sure what I want.... I may just decide to be STILL and let WS do what he 'threatened' to do..... see what he comes up with...and 'drag' my feet.... and wonder if this would not just be a Lbuster?... powerstruggling?

The 'division' of assets will involve a lot of paperwork.... not looking forward to it, either way!

Should I just cooperate and get it over with it? Should I just not let my message be.... I will not stay married to a man who cheats on me?... who chooses to invest in R with a woman other than the mother of his children?

...as WS has again placed me in the 'obstacle' role to his 'happiness'.... should I just not 'move out of the way' and let him have what he wishes for....and see what happens?

It's not pleasant playing the 'obstacle' role... which I think helps to fuel A even more.... a 'common foe' to beat to reach 'being together at last' for WS and OW.....

In the meantime... I suspect WS will find a way to have OW move in the apt above him somehow....by 'indirectly' taking charge of the apt. 'personally'....inspite of the fact I am co-owner....it would be too messy to 'fight him' over it.....

Your thoughts will be more than welcome....

It sounds as if no matter what route you take it is going to be expensive, and involved.

I, personally, was not willing to do mediation. I set up an LSA, and had my lawyer send it to PWC. He was a bit blindsided at the time, but he was forced to make decisions. We went back and forth for quite a while, through our lawyers. If he made changes, I would decide If I agreed and then have my lawyer set up the more updated version of the agreement.

Do whatever YOU want. I got an LSA because I was not ready for D, but I wanted to protect our assets and separate finanaces, AS IF we were divorcing.

I think you do have to make the decision of whether or not you want a divorce FIRST, then make this decision. If you are not ready, then I would consider the LSA.

Hi SL,

Thanks for your input.

I did notice a MAJOR contrast between...when I consulted a lawyer either before or just after WS moved out (can't remember <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />...and was maybe following advice given here or by Steve H.....).... but back THEN, I was in SHOCK....I do recall somewhat having been given the same information.... but I hadn't registered much of it... couldn't do much...because I COULD NOT believe what was happening.... this time around... it felt differently.... not emotional....not in a daze... and ready to 'accept' what will be will be....

So...at this point...I am really not in any hurry... WS is not part of my daily life.... the worse has happened... I am aware of all the paperwork that will be involved should all of this lead to a D....but I would like to take him up on his 'bluff' and let him do some of the 'legwork'....with my not consenting to let OW move in upstairs from him, WS may have 'cornered' himself and have to prove his true intentions to OW....and thereby proving to ME that there is 'no doubt in his mind' and that he really has NO interest at this time in re-investing himself in a R with me and in making his family a priority again.....it will hurt...but it will be CLEARER....

...but I really don't want to sit across WS and negotiate anything.... so my first choice is to have me 'represented'.... whether it be for mediation sessions or D proceedings...if WS chooses to initiate process...

....and if he does... as I already said above, I will then take it as a clearer indication that he has no 'doubt in his mind' about what he wants.... and in turn it will help me give myself permission to 'move on' a little further....

...it may LOOK slow from the outside... but major changes have happened IN ME.... I could tell from the difference IN ME with my meeting with lawyer...no feelings of ANXIETY, PANICK, FEAR... just me getting info. about what needed to happen....to 'legally' move on.... it's a process....and I may be a SLOW train... but it's moving regardless....

Hi Luna,

It seems to me that your WH has made himself clear. He doesn't want the responsibility of marriage with you or with OW. What he chooses to do with OW should not impact your decisions about your future.

By waiting for him to make any move you are giving him control. I understand you don't want to D, who here really wanted that as an outcome. You need to take control of your future and not let your WH's behavior or uncertainty about what he wants in his future dictate what you do with yours.

Hi Nams,


...I am slowly 'testing' myself.... I need to be in sync...with whatever move I choose to make... I definitely see a difference from 2 yrs ago.... and 'knowing the way I know myself' it will happen....in about the same way I got to PLAN B..... that's maybe why I am not in any 'rush'.... because I know I will 'get there'.... wherever I need to get TO.....LOL!

EDIT: I know for a fact...my decision would be easier to make if S made decision to end R with me... right now what I have is a WS...so my interest in seeing the A end...is just that.... to confirm that S wants out of the marriage... and not WS..... I know.... it's what I want.... and what I want is not TOTALLY in my control.... I get that....which is why I need to consider making decisions, taking control of my life now, as A continues....and who knows when it will end...IF it will end....

Hi Luna!

I just caught up on your thread. I have been away from the board for awhile.

I am not at all surprised you are contemplating Plan D. But not for any of the reasons mentioned. As I recall, you have always said you would give it two years. Non? Maybe it seems that WS actions triggered it, but wasnt two years your mental marker all along?

Moving to Plan D means letting go of the hope that WS will still change his mind and truly letting go of your M....that is painful. Like turning off the life support on a M in a coma. You finally conclude that it isnt going to wake up, and so that is when the real goodbyes are said. But no more holding on to something that may no longer be there and finally letting has also got to be very liberating! (Hospital cafeterias dont cook soulfood, if you catch my drift!)

I am really pleased to hear you were able to confront WS under top notch conditions and to say your peace face to face....feeling like he hadnt been "getting it" must have made you question: "How could he make a decision about leaving us or coming back to us, if he doesnt really understand the real consequences of that decision?"

When you went into Plan B, I remember that you did it to save your sanity, but also to make an open offer to your WS . Essentially saying: WS, I will give you a second chance to rejoin the M despite breaking our contract, so long as you change your actions.

You have left this offer on the table for him to take for two years.

Two years is a long, but reasonable time to wait after twenty years of marriage and considering your personal needs.But is three? Four?

Why should WS deserve to have such a lovely Luna-offer extended for so long?

What are you really gaining after 2+ years of waiting?

You have gained a lot of personal development ground so far...But wont you be able to continue this after a D anyway?

You yourself have said you needed time, understandably so, but you have also alluded to past habits of hiding behind fears and not confronting head on and not standing your ground and up for yourself.

Is it possible that hanging on past the two years could turn into hiding?

Hi Ahuman,

Thanks for taking the time to catch up on my thread.



It certainly was....that I would not make ANY decisions until after two years...and I really needed it to 'pick myself' up from the blow of an A.....so....here I am....re-evaluating the situation....and realizing that WS is still very much in fogland....and....what do I want to do about it?



Yeap...that's what it means....letting go of the 'hope'... and I do expect it to be painful... which is why I am now in the process of gathering information about D proceedings as it is the next step for me to consider.... and lining up some support..... warning friends that they might get a call from me in 'crisis' (family too far away)...back in IC.....



I agree with you, Ahuman, it would personally be easier for me to 'move on' had I seem WS out of the fog....and S telling he wasn't interested.... so...I was disappointed to see HOW MUCH WS was still in fogland....



Something to think about, Ahuman, and which I will do....

I know for one thing....two years is long enough for the one week/one week deal with the boys....and when WS wanted my cooperation, like, my routines to match his....and taking the house keys from the boys when they are with him.... I took it as an opportunity to actually re-open the issue.... and I have informed WS that it was time to consider what the boys 'wanted'... I have discussed it with the boys....they are thinking about it....and we will discuss it again, inform WS how they feel, etc..... I no longer want them to feel that they are 'forced' to go the WS....not at their age.... and both WS and I will have to 'adjust'... but at least, the boys might feel less like they are living 'out of suitcases'.....and I feel better about that....

Although I do see WS making very 'awkward' attempts at reconnecting.... the bottom line....he is still very much a WS....and someone that I cannot allow into my life....

....a WS is very 'draining'....energy-wise.....

I hope you are doing fine... and certainly would appreciate a little update...if you see catch this post.

Hi again,

I am up early packing for a business trip...low and behold you have already replied! Thats great.

By the way, what's good to see/do on a Sunday in Montreal, any ideas?

Sounds like you are in good hands: Luna's! You sound like you are doing what you need to prepare yourself for this in a healthy way. My only fear was that you were not facing it, but I think based on your repsones that it not the case you are just taking the steps as you need to do.

You never know, you may have some painful days followed by days of extreme excitement and happiness to be free from all this MUCK! Single life has some great adventures in store for you I am sure!

Dont forget, the grass is always greener....recovery has its own disadvantages, especially for the BS. I think the FWS has fewer, sorry to say. Nothing is fair in love and war, right? One hangup for the BS, that I have seen, is shouldering the fear of the "unknown". The "what if" of a spouse-taking a business trip--for example. The rebuilding of trust is a HUGE challenge. You might be surprised at all of the anger, resentment, and fear that you would have to work through.

A silver lining to Plan D is that YOUR HEART IS FREE of this whole mess entanglement! (I would wager that even when it comes to dealing with WS for the kids will feel different when you are D).

But anyway, I am not in your shoes, so my view may be misplaced. For what its worth, you seem to be fairing very well.

You asked about me, and well, aside from having to leave for work (I have come to dislike flying and leaving my family!), I am getting along swimmingly! I have worked very dedicatedly at recovery now for three+ years and although the issue is always there, like a giant ghost, we have and are making daily progress toward trust and wholeness as a couple.

If we were on a boat, it is as if the rift caused by my A is the horizon behind us. It is just part of the marital scene now, we cant get away from it, but the scene can be beautiful nonetheless.

My BS still has bad dreams sometimes and still has moments of distrust/fear, I do my best to reassure him of my sincerity and love and then we keep moving through life.

One thing that I have personally found challenging is to have gone through all of this, been open and honest even though late, but still live branded for my past. Its not as if he is calling my a liar, it is just that he still fears I may lie, so in essence it feels the same. I was so young and stupid! I honestly had no concept about the vast consequences of my choices. It sounds even dumb to say that--how could one NOT know??? But it so true. Have you seen the film Shawshank Redemption? Great flick. If you havent I recommend it. Anyway, my point is that I feel like Morgan Freeman....when he is before the Parole Board and he says he wishes he could go back to speak to the stupid young man that stole the television and shake some sense into him. That is how I feel about my 28 year old self!!

Whew, my fingers are gabby this morning!

Totally off the subject, have you heard of or read anything by Pema Chodron?

Okay, I better go finish packing now!

Ciao.

Hi Ahuman,

Thanks for posting so quickly yourself.



Many things...when are you coming?



Oh...the 'fear' is there alright....but like a book out there says...' I am facing it and doing it anyways'


I hear yeah, Ahuman!



Actually, since I have had to communicate more with WS re boys (in writing only)....it has made me realize that, with PLAN B, I seemed to have achieved enough of a detachment ....to be able to pick out the 'fog' and manipulation, etc. in his messages, and SEE THEM AS HIS ISSUES, and only consider the essential....

WOW..... I am pleasantly surprised! ...seems to me I am ready for the step... and 'my way' seems also to be 'slow but steady'!



Ahuman, it sounds like you have taken responsibility for your actions...and that you have become all the wiser for it.... but I can see how it can at times be frustrating for you...



Yes I have...and I agree....



Ahuman????...are you kidding me?? you're only 28 yrs old!
I am waaaaayyy older than you.....and only seem to be half as wise!



No...what about?....recommend I look him/her up?

Have a good trip, Ahuman.

Update.

I had to have some exchanges (written) with WS re modifying the one week/one week routine for the boys.... they want to stay MORE with me....so.... you can imagine that any suggested modification would not be received very well by WS....

....and I can confirm....dealing with a WS can be very draining....it helps to have achieved some 'detachment'.... because otherwise hearing the 'fog' must be REALLY hard to take... as what a WS can say is really unbelievable... blame, denial, accusations are rampant..... hard to imagine that somewhere in 'there' is the man I THOUGHT I used know..... or, was I under an illusion all these years?

It should be settled shortly.....and things should be 'calmer'

I am glad I brought the issue up, though ... WS threatens to let the Court decide.... if that is the case...that's fine.... I am not putting words into their mouthes....and they are going to be 17 and 12... I think the Court would find it in 'their best interest' that they are old enough to decide with whom they want to spend more time and allow them to choose...

Still gathering info. on D proceedings... I don't think I will go the Legal Separation route.... it would have been something to consider shortly after D-day.... to buy time... but after two years.... seeing that WS is still very much in the fog.... PLAN D I think is in order...

PLAN B was good.... but it's time to move to the next level.... WS seems really 'set' in his fog.... it's going to take a while, IF it ever lifts.... I don't think I have the energy to 'wait around' longer..... we will see.....

Hi Luna,

I'm an old poster from the childrens board. I read your entire thread. I think it's time for plan D. Good luck with everything you are doing great.

Unsure

I haven't been able to reach anyone of my friends to 'have a shoulder to cry on'.... and hope you all won't mind if I just type away....and try to get whatever needs to get out from my system...don't expect it will anything ENLIGHTENING... don't expect it to make much sense even.... don't feel very intelligent tonight....

sadness is what I am feeling...can one really CHOOSE what we feel? ...maybe... with a lot of practice...it would be nice... what I do know is that I have yet to hit the LOWS of after D-day....when my whole world seemed to have collapsed.... I now see that I have survived... and I guess that leads me to believe.....that I will also survive THIS.... whatever it is....

I also wish I was not so set on the idea that a STORM is coming.... going to take it as a challenge to see if I can change that THOUGHT to something....more positive...

...I really can't figure out what I am feeling... am I disappointed to see that WS seems to have made no progress at all after 2 yrs? ...yep.... discouraged?.... yep....

...hard to do PLAN B for two years and NOT expect some evolution.... niet...no..nothing...fog fog fog...and nothing but fog....

...loneliness....yeah... that, too....

helplessness...yeah...

I am now going to figure out what I can DO to get me out of this MOOD....something that will EMPOWER me... something enjoyable...

Thanks....to those who actually took the time to read this post....

a run-of-the-mill....no lightbulb-moment post...no insights.. nothing....zip...

....just....sharing...

....because....those moments exist, too.... TOTALLY UNBRILLIANT!