My H is not willing to try, says ILYBNILWY & with his feelings gone why/how would he try. If his heart isn't in it it won't work. I thought that in time his anger would subside & he would see how much there is to lose but it seems that is not going to happen. I have my "ok" days where I find the strength to tell myself that one day it will be enough (for lack of a better word) that I tried all I could, that it wasn't me who gave up, wasn't me who walked away and that one day I will find peace in that. I have my "denial" days, where I read into everything he hasn't done (moved out 9/06 still haven't listed the house, no separation agreement, no divorce papers, has been very secretive w/ who is "allowed" to know about the situation, bought an aero bed instead of taking the bed from the guestroom, etc. etc.)and of course, my angry days, where I say good go! you have a choice of trying to work out your marriage w/ someone who loves you so deeply or being alone and you choose alone? fine! I deserve better, I deserve to be w/ someone willing to fight for me as I am for you. That you could walk away like the past 17 yrs mean nothing, then go! and then the worst of all days, those days where laxative commercials can you make me cry, where everything around me reminds me of him and us. When it hurts so bad I feel like I can't breathe. What else can I do but give up? Seems just as hard as holding on these days. Everytime we talk, we go around in circles, I want to try, he doesn't. He asks me how I could see this working? How I see us getting passed it? Asks me for a "plan" and when I answer him, he says he just can't. So why ask?? Why tell me that you see changes if they don't matter?? Why tell me that it makes you so angry that it took this to get me to see how trivial the things we argued about were?? Everyone keeps telling me hiw "lucky" I am, that we don't have kids and while I agree it would be hardER, it doesn't hurt any less for me. You don't have to have children to break up a family. It's just so hard to wrap my head around this...We didn't stop getting along, when we're not talking about "us" we're still us, if that makes sense, we didn't grow apart, we don't want different things out of life, there isn't anyone else, no lies, no trust issues. We have seen/spoken to eachother every day for over half our lives, I am one of maybe 3 people who really know him, that he has let in and all of it seems to mean nothing to him. I thought that if I could understand it, maybe I could move on but it seems like it's not a choice either way just what I have to do...HOW is another issue all together!?!?!?

Welcome, and sorry you're here.

Have you been reading the material? Have you been trying Plan A? If not, read up. While the forums often have good advice, the meat and potatos are in the Basic Concepts and letters sections of this site.

You'll find many, many people here who have been where you are emotionally. We call it the "rollercoaster."
All right, tighten your belt. The input you'll get here isn't always easily to take.

You listed the following:
"We didn't stop getting along, ... we didn't grow apart, we don't want different things out of life, there isn't anyone else, no lies, no trust issues"

So, what did happen then?

My best guess is your list of what didn't happen is what didn't happen for you. Your husband's experience of the marraige may have been very different from yours.

The very fact that he can say to you "I'm not in love with you" suggests he did indeed grow apart from you.

Part of me wants to suggest you ask him for his view of what went wrong, why he's angry, why he moved out. However, this would only be good advice if you could listen in silence, digest it all, and say "Thank you." Any refuting his story would be a disrespectful judgment of the worse kind, and solidify his view that nothing could change.

Now, how do you know there's no one else? I'm a little suspicious of someone who moves out but doesn't want anyone to know. That's not the behavior of someone who wants to divorce, not reconcile, and has nothing to hide. It suggests a whole host of other motivations.

Read up on PLan A and Plan B. They're in the infidelity section but Plan A is good for most situations except addiction and abuse.

Well Green,
The rollercoaster sucks!
We have discussed this too many times to count and I wish it was that our views were different, but they aren't.
We agree completely on went wrong, too many stupid arguements that I just couldn't see at the time how stupid they truly were. That is where his anger & frustration come in, that all the times he tried to get me to see it I couldn't. That I have my revelation when he's ready to walk away. I tried to explain that sometimes you have to see things for yourself but it doesn't seem to matter. He tells me that he just can't do it anymore, you can't unbreak a window, you can't unring a bell. He has said many, many times that our relationship was great, other than the stupid arguements. Just seems my realization came too little, too late for him...
He moved in w/ his sister (also one of my best friends) at my request, thought maybe he would be able to relax, maybe let go of some of the anger but so far, so bad! Everytime we talk we go down that road & I try to convince him of all that there is to lose & he just says he can't, his feelings have been pushed away, he just can't even try and that kills me! and yet, he says he hates that it took this for me to see things & other comments that make me think....hmmm....maybe there's hope but who knows!!
I know that there isn't anyone else, sometimes I wish there was, then I could just be angry and push on, ya know??He's a very private person so not wanting to talk about it or wanting everyone to know is just him. He doesn't want to have to answer a million questions or defend his feeling that he is doing the right thing...He tells me he doesn't know that this will make him any happier, he just knows he's miserable now....what else can I say/do that I haven't already...You can't make someone see/feel something they don't want to...

OOOH. I may be able to help on this one, thanks to my experience.

My marriage went south soon after we were married. I asked my H to go to marriage counseling repeatedly over a seven-year period. He always refused, saying things were great. Well, they may have been great for him, but I was miserable. My H knew exactly which of his actions were causing me distress, but he refused to change them. Twice I asked him to move out and he refused. His suggestion for how we fix things was I should stop obsessing about how unhappy I was.

Would you believe me if I told you he was taken entirely by surprise when I moved out with the girls? He had no idea I was so unhappy, so miserable. But, it was all my fault. B finally went to marriage counseling, but he didn’t do anything he agreed to. I filed for divorce and quit. B asked me one more time to go to marriage counseling. I went.

All through every marriage counseling session, and all through our talks, I got the same message over and over again. “You have to stay because… you haven’t tried. You haven’t tried hard enough. You need to tried again.”

By the last session, there was only one thing B could say that would have convinced me. If he had ever said, “You know, I did a terrible thing by not acknowledging your pain. I understand if it’s too late. I want what’s best for you. I want you to be happy even if that means we can’t be married.” Had he said that, I would have thought there was hope.

Because he never said that, because all he did was demand I put more and more energy and time into the relationship, a relationship he wanted to maintain at the status quo, because of that, I felt he could never provide the care I needed.

Now, do I think you should say something like that to your H? Not necessarily. I do think you should immediately cease and desist all talks about “us.” “Us” talks are full of requests for time and energy and commitment which a man in your husband’s situation cannot make.

Instead talk of anything and everything but “us.” And don’t talk to him every day unless he’s calling you. Needy isn’t attractive. Desperate is icky.

Have you done anything structured to help you make changes to how you handle conflict? How are you going to disagree without starting a stupid argument? My guess is the stupid arguments were full of lovebusters: Angry Outbursts. aimed at wounding; disrespectful judgments, aimed at shaming the other into agreement, and/or selfish demands to get something at the expense of the other. Sometimes, some help is needed to stop the LBs as we call them.

It is essential to stop all LBs immediately. Otherwise, you’re pouring water through a wire screen. Nothing you do will help if you slip up. Read up on the Love Bank and LoveBusters.

The good news is this system can work. I cut out all LBs and I met my H’s emotional needs, and he felt romantic love for me. Too bad it was enough to motivate him to stop LBs and to meet my needs. LOL. I’m better off now. J

PS: this doesn’t have to do with him “wanting” or willing himself to feel something. He can’t control how he feels about you. You control that, provided there isn’t another woman in the picture. If you meet his emotional needs with out hurting him by angry outburst, disrespectful judgments, selfish demands, dishonesty, or independent behavior, he will feel “in love” with you again.

That in love feeling is not something we can will. It’s a reaction to the stimuli another person provides. Care is how I describe the action verb “love.” That’s what you do when you intentionally meet another’s needs. Care you can do, care you can will yourself to do.

Okay, so where does that leave you? It leaves you with a lot of control, and a fair amount of time to execute this. He hasn’t filed yet, and he really doesn’t want to deal with the messiness of divorce. That’s on your side.

Now, what EXACTLY hurt him in the stupid arguments? Figure it out, and NEVER, EVER do it again. You may be able to ask him to fill in the Love Busters questionnaire. The request could go something like this, “Bob, I’m trying to make some changes in my behavior. Since you know me, good and bad, better than anyone else, would you please fill in this questionnaire? It’s about the things I do that hurt relationships. I promise I won’t get defensive or argumentative over your answers. I really want your perspective to see how it matches up with mine.”

Now, if you’re smart, you’ll have filled in an LB questionnaire before hand. Fill it in as if you were your H. This is what you’d do if your H refused to fill it in. That way you could even show him how serious you were about change.

Green, You're killing me!!
I posted today b/c I just felt spent. That I had exhausted all options & needed to face this inevitible end as it seems so completely out of my control...Now I get "It leaves you with a lot of control, and a fair amount of time to execute this. He hasn’t filed yet, and he really doesn’t want to deal with the messiness of divorce. That’s on your side" OH BOY!! He called this AM to tell me he was coming to the house tonight to do a few things, I asked him to come Wed instead as I would be out. He asked where & I reminded him Wed night is therapy night. As always convo drifts to us and around & around we go...I finally just told him I live you enough to let you go & told him that I don't want to have these convos again. I figure by pushing myself to move on, it can only help both of us right? If he is going to see anything he will see it on his own & I won't have to feel crushed everytime we go through this.
I don't know what else to do...I just know that I love him, I can't remember a time I didn't or picture a time I won't....

I didn’t mean to kill you with this. Part of it is you have to manage the roller coaster. Manage your expectations of him and yourself. A lot can be based on how you frame “moving on.” You don’t have go rush at a divorce, willy-nilly. I waited 6 months post-separation to file. I waited another year before really starting to push the settlement process.

Instead, think about “moving on” in terms of growing. You’re growing as a person, developing a better understanding of relationships, yourself and others. You’re growing in patience, fortitude and strength. Unfortunately, growth is usually painful, and often unpleasant.

If you frame it in these terms, you’ll be in a great place if/when your husband decides to give you a second chance. If you think of it in terms of “getting over him” or “showing him you don’t give a darn,” you’ll be much more vulnerable to making bad choices that will diminish chances of reconciliation.

JMHO.

Good luck.

Trying deperately to manage my rollercoaster, which seems at times a runaway train! The process of separation/divorce etc. will be at his discretion. I don't want this so it won't come from me. The house should be listed within the next week or so, as hard as it is to be there I know there is atill a part of me hoping that with the market as it is & the holidays approaching, maybe it will all work out in the interim. Maybe I'm foolish for being hopeful but I love this man & my heart won't let me forget that!!
Thanks for being here!

Green and Hurting- Green has a lot of good advice. It sounds like your husband (Hurtings) is suffering fatique. He does not seem to have an OW, he is burned out. Living with his sister may be just what he needs. It sounds like you (Hurting) is a much more social and verbal person than your husband. Keep us informed what happens. johoman

Thanks for the encouragement...I'm trying to hang in there. Some days are better than others. If I could just shut my mind off I'd be ok! I think too much!! I wonder why he seems so verbally committed to ending our marriage and hasn't done much at all since he left in September but yet isn't willing to budge at all or try to make this work? 17 yrs is so much to walk away from...He says it's not easy, that he doesn't eat, doesn't sleep, he's miserable...then why not try and know and at least have that peace of mind that you tried??

Okay. I don't want to panic you... But exactly why is the house on the market? Do not sign on to have the house sold unless you have had legal advice.

Since you and your husband are basically estranged, you need someone to represent you at closing, if not before.

I don't think your husband is planning to abscond with all the money, but selling the house while you're in limbo land can turn out very badly.

Hurting- A bell just went off in my head!1 I am a retired pysch nurse. What you just described is a classical case of depression. Can't eat, can't sleep for your husband.I would recomend that he see a doctor ASAP. He may need treatment for depression (you don't want to ignore that as the consquences can be very severe). I have seen (to many times) the consqences of untreated (or undertreated) depression. Depression can hit anybody and can be deadly. Nothing to play with. Once he gets his depression treated then your marriage has a fighting chance. One would not expect a diabetic in a coma to be a functioning human being and the same pricicple applies here. johoman

Green - The house is going to be listed b/c neither of us can afford it on our own so this is what has to be done.
We are going to speak to a mediator about the divison of the $$ from the sale. We've already discussed it & if for whatever reason, we can't work it out in mediation, we will have to hire our own attorneys...Just the way it has to be when he doesn't want to try to work it out. Not like I have a choice.

oh boy Joho...If his arm was dangling by a tendon I would still have to knock him out and drag him to the doctor..nevermind try to tell him he should go speak to someone for depression!! He'd say he isn't depressed, I mean afterall, this is what he wants!?!
He says he has no problem falling asleep just can't stay asleep, wakes up after a couple of hours b/c he can't shut off his mind. Wish it was doubt that was plagueing him but dreams are for dreamers...Trying hard to stay in realityland ya know??

Falling asleep and not staying asleep is a classic sign of depression. Could be part of a mid-life crisis too.

Or there COULD be another woman. That was my first thought. Doesn't matter if he isn't the type to cheat, or if he denies it.

Hurting- This is a free country. I guess he can do what he wants. I was expressing my opinion. What ever happens this is an opportunity for you to learn things about yourself. If there is anything good about a crises it is the opportunity to grow. johoman

Well, H called again today to ask if I had transferred $$ into our joint account (Could have just looked through the transactions but whatever) Chatted a little about nothing, how he was feeling, seems he has a cold, poor thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
he isn't sleeping well, blah blah blah...
Got into a little "us" chat, told him that I understand how he feels but it would be nice if he could also try to understand how I feel, that this isn't what I want & I am hurt, that I do try very hard to keep what's in my heart from making it's way out of my mouth but it is hard. I am hurting & though I don't expect compassion, he has to understand that this is not easy. He asked something about what my friends think, if they think he should be trying and that he's wrong for not? If they think he could magically fall back in love & we'd live happily ever after.
That went into how I should have seen things sooner, How angry he is that I have this revelation (I swear that is his favorite word) when he can't do it anymore, that he believes it needed to end for me to see it for myself & same old, same old. I told him I couldn't talk anymore that I felt ill, said I love you & hung up.
I can't keep having these convos over & over. I just can't. It's like breaking up again & again!!
Is he unsure? Is that why he asks? Why he can't sleep? Why he hasn't filed for a separation or anything? Why he has only moved his clothes & nothing else??? Why ask these questions if trying is not an option?!?!?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Huritng--Give him time. He is floundering. If yoou want the maraige to continue just sit back and watch. I think that is what they call Plan A in MB. johoman

Floundering huh??? Can I filet his a** then? LOL!!

You could filet him, but that’s usually frown upon.

Hurting, I think it’s time to seize some control back. First off, you might think long and hard about money going into a joint account. Second, you can control the conversation. As in, “Honey, I won’t talk about us.” End of discussion.

Consider this: Every time you have this conversation, you feel horrible and hurt. Your husband probably doesn’t feel any better than you do, although he’s enjoying putting all the blame on you.

You have never told us what the “stupid arguments” were about. I think this may be more important than you think. Truly stupid, nothing arguments don’t destroy marriages. If you tell us more, we may come up with better ways of helping you demonstrate change.

I’m going off in another direction here now. If your h is suffering from depression, you’re in for a big uphill struggle. When people are depressed, they are incredibly self-absorbed. The same is true of anyone in serious pain. (I’ve suffered recurrent clinical depression off and on since I was 9, so I know.) Your H would have limited empathy, and an inability to see change as a possibility. That’s part of the depression. Sometimes, fear can motivate the person to take action, but usually fear just further paralyzes him/her. In men (correct me when I go astray, Johoman), depression often presents as anger. So, your husband may be consciously feeling anger rather than experience the sadness, and he may direct that anger against you.

I’m pretty sure your H doesn’t really want to divorce you. If he did, he would have started that process long ago. Since you still love him, I’d slow down the how process including selling the house. Instead, I’d focus on demonstrating DRAMATIC, CONSISTANT change.

Now, tell us more about the real reasons why he left. What were the fights about and where did you go wrong in the fights? We don’t beat people up for past behavior if they want to change. We only take a 2X4 to those currently engaged in stupid or destructive behavior.