Green,
Thanks for the post...Ok, Fileting bad, got it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Our problem boils down to communication & ironically I have been told that it one of the "easiest" things to fix.
Well, the specifics of my stupidity are as follows...
I wanted him to make some plans for us, because he rarely did and instead of just asking for what I needed/wanted, I would start a fight that he didn't care about me. If I had a bad day & didn't feel like talking he wouldn't accept nothing as an answer when he asked what was wrong, instead he would keep asking until I exploded & then turned it into something about us & whatever was really bothering me got lost in the mix. I know, I know I should have calmly said "I really don't feel like talking right now, but thanks for asking" but let's be honest a) hindsight is 20/20 and b) "real" people don't usually do that. We tend to take out our daily frustartaions on those closest & I'm NOT saying it's right but I am guilty as many are!
Now this next thing is EXTREMELY difficult to admit but when I am PMSing I am a NIGHTMARE!! He used to suggest I try herbal supplements or such and I would FREAK! What can I say, he was right. The arguements that we had pretty much all coincided w/ "that time" but what woman wants to admit that?? That's the ugly truth. No infidelity, no lies, no drugs, no beatings, just an idiot w/ a bad temper & poor communication skills.

Hurting--- Green is right--if he really wanted a divorce he would have done it long ago. You are showing some insight into hyor own behvior which is good. In this day in age it is so easy to end a marriage. Like I said- give him space and see what happens. johoman

Talk to your GYN right away. I think they were doing studies or possibly using one of the anti-depressants to treat extreme moods during the cycle.

Well Joho...what can I say to you...Thanks for the support & From your PC to God's ears!! I have read so many posts showing the "progressions" from the bomb to the separation to the divorce & we're still no closer to anywhere. Well, maybe in the fact that he is pushing now for listing the house. That's his top priority. We don't have real grounds, so we will have to be legally separated for 1 yr prior to getting the divorce. I am trying to stay positive but it is unbelieveably hard. I read someones post that said "Believe none of what they say and half of what they do"...I am just so very fearful of slipping into denial-land!! It's hard enough to try to see the light at the end of the tunnel but then to find out it's attached to a train coming at you full speed?! I don't think I could take it!!
Green, Thanks, I will run that by her.

Hurting-Grounds are realy not relevant in divorce these days. Most everything is no fault. It used to be "mental cruelty" but now if one just wants out that is all it takes. His acts are more important than his words. Even if you all sold your house it would not end your marriage. johoman

Joho - In our state the no fault is granted after a yrs separation..When the house is sold, I will be buyinng my own place & I have to look at that as MY fresh start, ya know? So for me, I would need to let it go. It's not our house that we'd be selling, it's our HOME.

I'd drag my feet on selling the house. I'd still check with an attorney. Sometimes the order in which you do stuff can have long reaching effects.

Can you rent the house for a year?

Can you get him to marriage counseling with you? Or failing that mediation or even divorce counseling? Any sort of environment where you can display new behaviors.

My dearest ***,

I had mentioned to you some weeks back now, that there were things I wanted to say to you, for me, for my own personal reasons, call it getting it off my chest, closure, or whatever.

I would have much preferred to say them to you in person, but maybe this is just as well.

I’ve heard that in a lot of the rehab programs they tell the abusers to apologize to those they have wronged,
I have decided to apply this technique in my own “recovery” process and so I would like to start there.

First and foremost, I am sorry, so very sorry, for any hurtful words that were spoken without thought during an argument or disagreement. I am sorry for any time in our relationship that I made you feel that I was not happy or that I did not love you, nothing then, or now, could be further from the truth. As I once told you I can’t remember a time that I didn’t love you and I can’t imagine a time that I won’t. I am sorry for any day that passed by that you did not know just how truly, deeply, loved you are.

I want you to know how truly sorry I am for those times I should have just calmly said “I appreciate you asking and Yes, something is bothering me but I am not ready to talk about it right now”, whether it had to do with us or not, but didn’t. It isn’t right I know, but it is true that we tend to take out the frustrations of our day to day on the people we are closest to.

I am sorry for the lapse in my ability to communicate with you. You are now and have always been my best friend, and I yours. I should not have let my own insecurities, or fears of rejection become an issue of contention. There should never have been a taboo topic, not between us. Ironically, you are the one person in this world I feel and have always felt I could be me with, the person I feel the most comfortable with, the one person who knows everything, the good, the bad and the ugly.

I am indescribably sorry for my inability to recognize the impact these things had on you sooner.
I hope that you know I could/would never intentionally hurt you or be the cause of your pain. It hurts me immensely to know that I have.

It took me these last couple of months to get over how you could not “just” forgive me and to understand why you would make references to me changing with anger. I can now say I understand your “why now” frustration, and disbelief of my revelation, as you call it. I understand from my own frustration, feeling that I was trying so hard, doing all I could and it wasn’t enough. I saw firsthand what it was to be in your shoes.
I wish I could say with any absolute certainty it was a specific result of this or that, but I can’t.
Maybe it was finally reaching out to others for their opinions, maybe it was the heart wrenching fear of losing the man I love, maybe the work I have done while in therapy, maybe it was divine intervention, I just don’t know.

What I know is that I am truly, truly sorry. What I know is that this is the hardest lesson I have had to learn. What I know is I would give anything to have you love me again, the way you used to, the way I love you still. I still believe that you are my soul mate, that loving you has not been my journey but my destination.

Your loving Wife,

****

Hurting- Beautiful letter but more for your self then H. To soon old to late smart. Did you H give you any indcation that he was unhappy?? Some times we ignore things we don't wish to acknowledge to our own peril. johoman

Apparently that’s the case...Spoke today, had a nasty fight this morning, while fighting he just kept saying how he wants to sell the house & then proceed with the divorce...He's so angry and so cold & nasty, you would think I tried to kill him or something!!
Later on this afternoon he called back & we spoke like nothing had happened, very calm, he told me he was meeting w/ a headhunter (he hates his job) told me his sister is miserable, she misses me so much (I knew her first, we’ve been best friends since high school) I told him I wished he missed me and his response was “How could I” – Didn’t ask him to elaborate, couldn’t take it!
We talked about us being friends one again one day too but I said I just don’t see how, I love him too much to be his friend, it would be too hard. He told me again how frustrated he is that I see it now, when he can’t take anymore, can’t do it anymore.
He says he gets so confused & frustrated how I could be so hurt, how I could cry so much, be so devastated when for so long he thought I wasn’t happy. I decided to end the conversation there…Couldn’t take anymore crying or heartbreak for one day.

H came to the house today to clear out some junk from the garage. My B-I-L helped him take the stuff to the dump & they ended up talking for 3 hours (pretty funny actually as they had never been all that close and neither of them are talkers, My B-I-L especially...very quiet) Well, he spoke a lot about the issues and that he can't do it anymore, nothing new there but also commented a few times that he doesn't know if he's doing the right thing or making the right decision & that he wouldn't know how to come back, how to try...I know that doesn't mean he's not going to go through with it, but any uncertainty seems a "good" thing at this point. Should I just leave him alone and let him work it out for himself?? Any ideas?!?

So now it seems that maybe Mr. So Certain this was the right thing, may not be all that certain afterall...but now what? I obviously can not be the one to convince him of what to me should be so obvious so what CAN I do? Do I just go along w/ whatever he wants (to move forward w/ selling the house, etc) and hope he realizes before it's too late? He has said to me a few times & now also to my B-I-L that "he wouldn't know how to try or what to do" He says he still wants to move things forward but the end result isn't guaranteed. To me, if you don't know you are doing the right thing, Isn't it worth trying to find out? What is he going to go all the way through the divorce process and THEN see how he feels!?!?!
What am I supposed to do here!?! HELP!!!

Next time he says he doesn’t know how, suggest you two get some help forming a plan. Since your H doesn’t like doctors, avoid words like counseling and therapy. Go with “plan.” You can also stress the “information gathering” aspect. More of “Well, let’s see what’s out there that might be able to clarify the situation for us.” “Clarifying the situation” is way different from marriage counseling, and you may have better success in moving him that way.

One reason your H may be frustrated is he doesn’t want to put any more energy into the relationship. It could be because in the past the relationship sucked energy out of him. If this is the case, you should avoid asking anything of him. Continue to refuse to discuss “us” with him. Those conversation drain energy like the hole in the bathtub. (And no, this is not contradicting my first piece of advice. There’s a difference between responding when someone says “I wouldn’t know how to work on our relationship” and discussing yet again what went wrong in the relationship.)

You can continue to show care for your H by trying to meet any needs he’ll let you meet, and not committing LBs. You’ve been doing this, and he keeps getting less certain divorce is the answer. So, you ARE taking action. You are controlling yourself. That’s all you can do, and slowly, it’s working.

I would still drag my feet on the house.

Don’t get impatient. This requires a LOT of patience.

Thanks for the post..
I just don't know if I have it in me...This has taken such a toll on me & I don't know how much longer I can do it. I know it sounds crazy since this is NOT what I want but I have even been thinking of filing myself just to take back control of my life! I am sick constantly about this whole thing!! When I talk to him all he says is he can't, he won't no, no, no...but yet he hasn't done anything to move forward w/ this D he wants so badly. Then he comes to the house Saturday brings me coffee & a new hands free for my cell, Cleaned out the vacuum, brought the garbage can back up to the house and tells my B-I-L he's not sure he's doing the right thing, blah blah blah. Then today I called him to get an opinion on something & he immediately gives me an attitude!! What the f*** is wrong with him!?!? and how much longer can I go through this limbo h***?!?!?!?!

It's been over 2 months now since he left. He didn't say he wanted time, he didn't ask for space. He said it was over, he couldn't do it anymore, wanted a divorce, etc etc.
So why is it that we have gone nowhere in that time? Why does he tell me he is 100% sure this is what he wants & then tell my B-I-L he doesn't know if he is making the right decision? Why does he ask me how we could get passed this & why did he tell my B-I-L he doesn't know how to come back, how to try? Why does he have to be nasty to me for no reason at all & if I am a little short w/ him he wants to know why I am being nasty!?! I feel like I am losing my mind!!! Can anyone shed some light?!?!

Thanks to all who posted but I am done! We are done! I can't do it anymore. I have tried to do the right things & for the most part I did, Yes, I also got in my own way many, many times but now I think it's time I realize that I fought a good fight but it is time to surrender. I throw in my towel, I wave my white flag. I can not keep going in these circles w/ him. I can not keep listening to him tell me to give up, let go, it's over. No matter what his inaction is showing I need to listen to what he is saying. He said very bluntly this morning "We are not going to reconcile." So I guess that's that. He'll file when he's ready, I still need him to at least own that. This is what HE wants and HE needs to see it through. I deserve better than this. I deserve someone who would fight for me the way I have fought for him, for us. Someone who wouldn't use my changes against me but respect me for making them. He actually yelled at me this morning, "Thank you for not listening to me and not seeing what you were doing until AFTER it was too late, Thank you so much" As if it was intentional!?!? It's only too late when you choose for it to be and he obviously has. Good for him.

There's a good book out there about planned separations. A counselor wrote it because he said even after separation couples had a hard time deciding if they should divorce or not. He felt that space was good, but with less anxiety. From what I've read here there's been none of the really bad stuff some of us have dealt with - drinking, violence, cheating - in your marriage. There's been a lot of arguing and some poor communication. If you can get a hold of that book, I think it makes sense if you can reason with your ex. If you've been married for as long as you have six months isn't going to make a difference. See if he's open to a six month plan, or whatever time period you want to make it. Make agreements that you'll meet casually even for coffee every week, that you won't argue and hammer on each other, that you'll allow each other space, that you won't date others during this time period, that you'll make sure this is what you both want, that neither of you will file for divorce, make agreements on finances, who pays what during this period of time.

I think space is good. It's not uncommon that separated people change their minds even on a daily basis. That your husband said he wants a divorce today doesn't mean much - tomorrow he could change his mind. Give him some space, give yourself some space. That you are still arguing means something is left here. Take care of your own emotional needs, take drugs for depression if you have to, st. johns wort or whatever, exercise, go to church, try to get some balance here yourself during this time period. There's a christian book called Hope for the Separated. It's a good one too. This doesn't have to lead to a divorce, there are techniques and if he's willing to give it some time, try them out. Yes limbo isn't a great place to be, it's a place where we all sit and suffer the consequences of bad decisions - it's a place where we look at ourselves and what we contributed too. It's a place of hindsight and hindsight isn't fair on one hand, having lived it and punished myself for my mistakes. But somehow we move on - trudge forward - look at every day as a new one, try to leave the past behind us.

Take care,

thanks horsey,
I appreciate your post but he is NOT willing. He has NOT accepted responsibility for anything (Beyond telling me he has) where I have stepped back, and more importantly stepped up. Taken responsibility for what I did, apologized, sought help through therapy etc. I asked him for a chance, a chance he is not willing to give. I have done all that I can...all he does is tell me that it is too late, that if I really cared I would have listened sooner, done something sooner, he tells me he can't, he won't do it anymore. He toggles between I've made my changes too late & he doesn't believe they would last. He tells me there's no hope for a reconciliation and that I need to "get over it".
I ask him to at least try to understand that b/c this is what he wants, doesn't mean it's what I want and he basically says too bad, it's what you did that got us here so to him, I have no "right" to be so crushed. I don't even know this person, this selfish, hateful, hurtful being he has become! He did make a comment this morning that all I do is push and make things worse. So I ask myself, If there's no hope, what is it I am making worse?? but I can't continue to beat myself up. I do it enough.

Give him SPACE. Men go into their caves (ie Men are From Mars book) when they have something to think about, being in their face all of the time can push them further. Let him have some time, take some time to yourself. Give it a break for a bit... that's what I think anyways. You never know he could turn around. Use a little reverse psychology, don't NEED him as much. Try to find some hobbies, things to do, exercise, eat right, do whatever you can to stop clinging to him. You'd think the crying and whining would work with me - I know from personal experience that it doesn't seem to work AT ALL. It doesn't make them feel bad for us, it appears that it just makes them think we are pathetic women. My mom once said to never let my husband see me cry, I believe when I did do the crying/whining after I left him it was an effort to get him to understand me. If I could have stayed cool and away from him it would have helped. Your ex is saying he wants space, give him space. When you are tempted to call him, whine, cry whatever, have at least one thing you make yourself do AT THAT MOMENT rather then calling him. Call a friend, go for a walk, go to Starbucks, the library, whatever. But stay away from him for awhile. You are taking advice from a screwed up person if you hear a word I'm saying by the way.

Horsey...
So is it wrong to wish that while he is in his "cave" that a boulder fall on his head!? Afterall, it's not like it would hurt as his head is protected...being that it is so far up his a** right now!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I am going to give him space as I have nothing left to say anyway...I know, I know..we're women and we can always find something to say! LOL. It just hurts that what I take from this is the equivalent of him saying that in the 17 yrs we have been in each other's lives, there is nothing worth salvaging, nothing worth trying to build/rebuild from.
That's an incredibly painful thing to digest. that he can admit that our relationship was great other than these stupid fights but then say he can't look at this like a scorecard & that no one leaves for the good times. Why can I see everything that we have worth fighting for and he can't find anything? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />