When people hurt they strike out, even more so for your husband if you are constantly in his face. It's hard to think when you are cornered.

A preacher once said for every negative thing you say in a relationship you have to say 10 nice things to even begin to make up for it. Keeping score is what Dr. Harley preaches on this site, it's like a bank account, if the fight and hurts go on and on, then you wind up bankrupt. Yes it's possible to "fix" but very difficult and wounds go deep.

I' separated from my husband two years ago, we've both lived with the hurt and consequences of our fighting - which was worse then yours, it included pushing and shoving that I can't seem to forgive him for. Everyone has an "enough" point. It might be your husband has reached that - if that's it, it's likely what I feel for my ex, it'd take a miracle for me to give a dang about him again.

However it might be that your husband will (if you leave him alone) go into his cave even more, he'll think about this and if no more damage is done - and no more episodes - then he might take some baby steps back. It takes two to damage a marriage, it doesn't hurt for you to analyze what you did wrong now that you are living with it - it's part of the process. We want to learn from our mistakes so we don't repeat them. If you didn't hurt right now you wouldn't be learning from this mess.

Learn more, go to counseling if you want to on your own. You can't control him, you can't argue to get him back - you'll just push him away more if you continue what you say you are doing - especially with him saying back off. Yes people do stay in marriages for the "good times" but there has to be more good times then bad and the bad can't be really bad over and over again to the point where everyone is exhuasted. Your husband got off the merry go round. Sometimes I think about the good, I'm tempted to go back to my ex - but he hasn't done the "work" necessary on his part for me to do so. And I know it. It's going to be the same ride. Dr. Phil even says after a separation if work isn't done, then typically the same patterns repeat themselves, I have to agree with him from what I've seen in my own marriage - with another separation behind us.

Change is hard. Even if you tell him you are going to change, it's not overnight, he's right about that. It's a matter of hard, hard work, changing life long habits and ways of communicating. Myself, I have a horrible temper - and I do the same emotional love buster you say you do - blow up and get rediculous, now that I'm gone I know I can't blame my husband anymore - that's the easy way out - blamiing someone for your own problems so you don't have to admit them (and likely your ex is doing some of this as well, wanting to think it's all your fault). So I'm trying, trying to learn to "stop" myself when I feel myself "losing it." I'm trying to learn to stay in control and be more centered (exercise, eating right, yoga and other methods really help us women who are hormonal on top of it). I have a lot of work to go before I'll ever even date again (for their sake and mine). Life is hard isn't it?

There are also counselors out there who serve also as "mediators" in divorce situations. Who help with situations like this. See if your husband is open to that rather then going straight to a divorce if that's what he pushes for ok?

To the 1st post - I HAVE, from the very beginning accepted my responsibility here. I have owned my mistakes & been working on making changes...but instead of any kind of positive acknowledgement, what I have gotten is "you have your revelation when I can't do it anymore", "you realize this when I'm done, good timing, good for us" or very angry replies of "why now?" and "why did it have to take this for you to see it", "why did it have to end for you to get it"
Sometimes we just have to see things for ourselves. Ya know? At least I have, and have not been trying to trun everything on him, but I guess that matters as little as we do to him! What completely boggles my mind is why, if this is what he really wants, why has he not filed? not even for a legal separation??

To the 2nd post - Not sure if we are referring to the same but he said he wanted to see a mediator over lawyers b/c there is just the house, no children etc. but I have a couple of issues there...
1 - We will most likely not be divorced before I have to buy a new place & the law sees that as a marital asset. I need to protect that as it will be my "home".
2 - If this is what HE wants, why shouldn't I leave w/ what I am entitled to? Why shouldn't I make sure I am going to be ok, at least financially?? He just doesn't want the expense of the lawyers & thinks I will give in to whatever he wants, but is that fair?? I didn't want this!?!?

I still smell another woman in all of this.

See an attorney to protect yourself financially.

I agree, sometimes it takes a "crisis" to be a wakeup call. And I take back what I said partially, some can wake up, go back to the marriage and make it work. It doesn't take a shrink to help in some cases. I don't even know you, was coming to some conclusions. So the "why now" is because you had a wakeup call, separation, threats of divorce, those are all calls for change big time - what it means is an end to status quo, what was happening that wasn't working. I'm sure you've told him that, honey this is a wakeup call for both of us, but I've been reading, thinking, going to counseling - and it doesn't have to mean it's over. I'm going to give you your space. How about in another week we just meet for coffee somewhere? Or dinner?

Stats say 70-80 percent of divorces are fiiled by women (aren't I filled with useless information?). I think men even if they leave don't want to be the ones responsible for actually ending the marriage. For some reason it's women who file. Men tend to drag things on and on, partly for financial reasons, typically they make more then us, have more assets to protect.

Men don't like being alone, it's true that there "could be" an affair or another woman, it's not uncommon. Men aren't good at being alone and sometimes they won't leave until something is at least partially lined up. I do think men do "that" much more then women. If you are curious about the affair thing and want to obsess - I did - see if you can get a copy of his cell records, that's the best way to tell as the cell company - if they will - can give you an itimized record, or find it online. Crack his email. Whatever. I'll admit I found my husband's "just a friend" through cell records I shouldn't have reallly gotten. I wouldn't have "known." I think it's true that they were friends to this day, or maybe that's self protection as he's hurt me enough.

It probably wouldn't hurt to meet with a few attorneys at this point, it's true. Especially if he's determined to go down divorce row. I found the book Divorce for Dummies and thought it was good, about saving attorney fees. The info on mediators is there, and tips on how to pay the jerks by the hour instead of letting them clean you out. Mediators can be attorneys or counselors. If neither of you has an attorney then you can first hire a mediator, depending on your state. If you don't have kids especially this could be a good option as the mediator will try to help you compromise on financial issues and will cost a whole lot less. If the mediator is a counselor too, they might help with a legal separation even so that you are covered on that end. But legal separation is the same process as a divorce, it's not going to help with any reconcilation.

If you are coverred legally - basically you make agreements with him - with some knowledge of how the division of assets work in your state. If you can make a temporary agreement with each other on who pays the bills, you might buy some time. If he's not having an affair, the space thing still might help. Try to gently work with him on the financial issues, make sure both of you have your bills covered and it's fair. I don't think most men proceed to divorce quickly even if there is another woman. Unless there's major legal issues or the finances won't worry, time is ok. Don't let anyone tell you to hurry or rush along. He doesn't need to either. You don't have to decide in a day, or a month, or even six months on this. You both put a lot of years into this marriage. Give space some time. See if you can make one tiny baby step with him to gently agree to splitting some finances in the middle of this - and to meet in a week or two with little contact inbetween.

Even if you aren't religion Hope for the Separated is a very good book. And the other book too about a controlled separation. Personally I think that unless there's another woman he's going to stall and not want to make a decision. If there isn't another woman then he'll be alone, it'll be quiet, he'll have time to think - and a lot of men/women with that time do start to miss the "good" that you talk about. But they can't miss the good when you are in their face being so needy. Do the reverse psychology thing, for yourself too. Start to be very strong, keep a non emotional tone to your voice, as monotone as you can, be busy, be coming, be going, be doing whatever you can to avoid calling him. What ever you stop the emotiional venting, it's not going to draw him closer, it's going to push him away at this point - and if there is even a "semi" other woman, right into her arms.

You can take my advice or leave it, I'm screwy myself. I've just learned some things from hard knocks and way too many of them. Besides I'm an ex journalist, I had to read every book, meet with 10 counselors, go through 2 attorneys and turn it all into a big plot... so out of my mess I ought to have lots of useless knowledge to pass along....

Sorry about all the typos, I have a two year old up late...

Thanks once again...
If there is 1 thing in all of this that I am sure of, it's that there isn't another woman. I HATE to hear those stats about filing b/c the 1st thing I said to him in all of this was that I wouldn't try to stop it (contest or stall w/ signing, etc) but that it wouldn't be me to do it. I need him to at least own that part of this!! I am FINALLY backing off, for both our sakes. I can not keep beating myself up & blaming myself for everything. I am someone worth fighting for & I deserve someone who recognizes that! We have close to 2 decades invested in each other and it's sad (to say the very least) that he doesn't see anything worth fighting for! Life is about choice & decision. I chose to step bacb, take responsibility for my mistakes. I chose to try to work on them, on my own & through therapy, something I didn't believe much in before. I chose to fight. I chose us. I can not only live w/ those choices but be proud of the decisions I made.

Hurting, Try for a second to see it from his side. He probably feels as if he’s been fighting for this marriage for years, and he just can’t do it any more. If he had good times, he probably remembers them, but just doesn’t have the will-power to force himself to go back into conflict and possibly get hurt. Like of Pavlov and his dogs. Stimulation and response get hardwired into peoples psyche as well as our bodies. Even if intellectually he knows you may react differently and he may not get hurt, every particle of his being is fighting against going back into pain.

He’s angry that you discovered change was needed after he had given up, because it’s a tragically ironic situation. He probably feels it’s not his fault if you didn’t hear any of the other wake up calls he sent. After all, he couldn’t force you to see how unhappy he was. Yet, now, you expect him to put in even more effort. It didn’t matter what he did before, you saw nothing wrong. But, now, now, when he’s tired and worn out and just wants to get away, now, you suddenly want to change and work on things. You want him to put in more energy and effort and suffering. And the outcome is not at all guaranteed.

I think seeing what he may be seeing is a good step to forgiving, including forgiving yourself. It also helps to remind us all that our spouses are not us, they are individuals and they often have very different experiences of the same incident as we have. Yet, we all tend to assume our spouses see and experience things the way we do. If we’re happy, they are. If we think our marriage is good, so do they. If we’re cheating or tempted to cheat, so are they. If super sex makes up for a knock-down fight for us, it must for them too. Heck, my ex still believes I did nothing to try to save our marriage—if I didn’t have all my posts here, he may almost have convinced me.

The point, though, is you still may not have all the facts from your husband’s point of view. He may be harboring all kinds of bad memories, which you don’t have. This seems more likely if there’s not another woman in the picture. If he doesn’t have any pleasant distractions, and still doesn’t want to work on saving the relationship…

hey Green...
That is how he feels, He has said it many times.
He said he is not doing this to be happy, he is doing this to stop being unhappy.
I guess then I just have to accept that my realization is in fact, too little too late and accept this is it?

I don't know. I just don't know.

I don't want you to beat yourself up solid or twist yourself into someone you can't be long term. That's not good either.

Plus, you are worth effort, etc. and if this man just can't try again, no matter what the reason, you deserve more.

And you certainly deserve more than living in no man's land, like now.


One other thing, even if you can't save your relationship, that doesn't mean your discovery came too late. Maybe it's coming just in time to get you ready for something else.

Twenty years is a long time. But when you look at your expected life span 75-95 years, it's not the entirity of your life. My mother, at 61, swears the last 5 years have been better than any other, and each gets better than the other. She married her second husband 12 years ago, after over 25 years of marriage.

So what are you're plans for getting through Thanksgiving?

Wishing you had something better, but I know none of has a crystal ball! I guess all I can do is wait it out....I am not going to be the one to file & make it easier for him. He needs to see this through, one way or the other...
I am supposed to be going to a friend's house, she broke up w/ her boyfriend recently & has no family in our state but I'm not sure. I think I might want to just be alone.
My H is not going to his family's either. He is staying alone at his sister's place. He has an amazing family & doesn't appreciate it. He said he doesn't feel he has anything to be thankful for & just wants to be alone....idiot!

I'm all for you waiting it out for a while. Just keep in mind, some people are very happy living separated, but not divorced. For example, 12 years of separation.

And I do want you to protect yourself financially. It would hurt to get the facts about divorce law in your state.

I can't imagine that he would do that...He has said all along that he wants to sell the house and get a divorce.
He doesn't want to live in limbo, etc etc etc.
I am going to see an atty. after Thanksgiving just to know my rights.
I hate this & I STILL can't believe it!!!

Realtors like divorce, mostly I think it does result in the sale of a house. Is he willing to take about what happens while you are in limbo, are the house payments covered? The utilities, etc? You'll have to chat with each other on the business side of this with or without attorneys.

I can see how some people can live separated but not divorced. I've been doing it two years. Everyone pressures me to "move on" with my life and that's tiring, typically I tell them I have this under control (ie it's none of their business) but now and then I give in and vent.

Typically it doesn't matter who files. If you reach an agreement and understand who gets what financially you can have a paralegal draw it up even and only pay a few hundred. I think most attorneys make things worse, not better but I had a few bad experieces. To go through the process without a fight that leaves you both more bitter and the attorneys richer would be the goal.

Greengables has interesting points. It is strange isn't it how two people can be in the same marriage and experience it differently? Your husband could be at his "enough" point. I tried and tried with my ex, even in counseling he didn't understand how his harsh words hurt me and disrupted our home, how I couldn't live with that. He grew up in a family that was apparently very disruptive where this was constant - the arguing, nit picking, power plays and he was recreating an environment that was normal to him. I grew up in a Christian home where I can't even remember an argument between my folks so the constant garbage was very abnormal to me - as the disrespect his showed me as his wife.

Some of the psychology behind marriages does even go clear back to our own childhoods, where we form our habits, our defenses, our ways of communicating. If your husband is beat from all of this he may want to just get it over with. Or like most men he'll stall so long as the finances are worked out so you both can live. A counselor told me once that a lot of what they see especially with men, is they find its easier to move on and start over then it is to go back to a marriage that wasn't working. There are so many people on this site who really do the work, using Harley's techniquest to repair marriages, sign the contracts, go to counseling and really work to save their marriages. It's inspiring. Maybe you can sort through those stories in the emotional needs part of this site just to see some of the miracles that can become of situations much worse then your own if you want some hope.