My DH has been faithful for 2.5 years now, but I still don't trust him. He is currently in Colorado at a school for a week and we have already had a big fight because he didn't answer his cell phone or room phone. (he was out running). When I finally got hold of him, I was very angry having had anxiety for an hour about where he was, what he was doing. He is supposed to call me when he gets home from class.

He is completely ticked off at me. Part of me understands. The other part of me wants to scream at him because "he made me this jealous and insecure woman" (I can't remember if my siggy is on here, but he's had 5 A's, 3 of them long term, one with a woman that lives a city away).

He has gone away 3 times in the last two months for various schools for work and we fight and I cry and have anxiety attacks constantly if I can't get hold of him. He is completely ticked off because he says he did nothing wrong. I'm ticked off because I have turned into this anxiety-ridden woman and don't trust him.

How do I deal with this? When do we learn to trust again? At this stage, if we were to divorce, it would be my fault for not trusting him and not being able to get over it. He is completely defensive and has no sympathy for my anxiety anymore. The anxiety rules my life when he's out of town (yes, I take meds).

Someone please help me with this.

shell

Shell,

Your husband has had five affairs since 2001, and he tells you he has no sympathy for your anxiety and you think it is your fault for not trusting him?

Do I have that right?

Stand back and look at your situation. Stand way back and look at your situation. You are trying to decide your future based on what you don't see. Your big quesiton is this: Is he having an affair today?

Instead, look at what you do see. He didn't slip into affairs #2, #3, #4, and #5. He knew what was coming. Affairs have been justifiable for some reason to him.

Now, people can change, and they do. Even serial cheaters can change.

Has he? Does he take your concerns seriously, or does he blame you by telling you that he did nothing wrong? Does he try to work through with you what might make you feel comfortable when he is out of town, something as simple as making sure you have cell phone access to him at all times?

The truth is right in front of you. It's not hidden. What you are anxious about is what you don't see, which is whether or not he is having an affair today. That's not what's important. What's important is whether he cares about you and shows that care by trying to address your concerns.

What's important you already know because you put it in your thread. Face the truth of what you already know, and then figure out what you are going to do about it. I doubt you are killing your marriage. He can remain married and a player -- what a deal for him. The question for you to ask yourself is if you want to stay in a marriage in which your husband dismisses your concerns.

Respectful

Thank you so much for replying.

Well, I am 100% sure that he is not having an A at home. I am 100% sure that he has not had an A since DDay. He told me, "Shell, I'm not that man anymore". I believe him. But, I can't get my brain to follow suit. Does that make sense?

He said to me that he is just so tired of hearing me question his whereabouts and what his itinerary is, that it's so old and he's just worn out with it. I just cannot keep myself from obsessing over whether he'll get drunk and get himself a ONS while away or something.

He has given me all his numbers and he has promised that he will not drink. He says he'll call me when he gets back from dinner with the guys that he's at the school with. He really has been trying and I guess he feels that I don't see that he's been trying to be a good husband since this happened.

I just can't get passed the feeling that it will all happen again. I obsess and I question the ****** out of him when he's away, to the point where we basically stop talking civilly. He still calls to tell me he's back in his room and to say goodnight.

Tonight (because of the 2 hour time difference) he went running first because he forgot about the time. That's when I couldn't get hold of him and of course, I call five million times, hoping that he will answer the phone. I freak and become this crazy lady, crying in front of my poor kids.

That's what has him at wits end. He feels that he is doing all he can do, but its never enough, that no matter what he does, I'm going to find something to be upset about.

I don't know how to get passed that. I don't know how to just let it go and trust him. I've read the books and tell myself all the time that he's fine, that he's faithful now, etc., etc., etc.

I get the feeling that after hearing me talk about this stuff for 2.5 years, he's just done.

I feel like I just want to give up because I can't stand the anxiety and not knowing what he's doing out of town.

I'm not making much sense, sorry, I'm not very articulate.

Thank you for your help.

Shell

Shell,
You're making a lot of sense. I'll bump up a thread of mine from four years ago -- look I've posted nearly 3,000 times on MB. You've been through quite a trauma.

My husband is two hours time zone away from me now. Last year, he traveled every week. Did I feel jealous or anxious? No.

Do you know why? I started to realize that the problem was not faithfulness. It was thoughtfulness. You can see thoughtfulness in how he treats you. You don't need to know what he is doing away from you if he is being thoughtless right to your face.

You do your part. Tell yourself that, if he is unfaithful, it will come out eventually. Don't concern yourself with that. Treat him with tenderness and kindness.

I'll bump the old thread of mine.

Respectful

Thank you so much Respectful. You're right on all counts. It is definitely the thoughtfulness.

I'm really going to try kindess and tenderness with him. I really think the he and I need to review the EN questionaire again, because we have gotten away from that. After I read your old post, I reviewed my old post linked in the bottom of my siggy and reviewed the advice I was given.

It struck me that I was really, really happy when he was giving me the emotional attention that I need. I'm not getting that anymore and i really need it.

You hit the nail on the head. Thank you again for helping me.

shell

HALSEY,

IMO, he is setting himself up for an excuse for #6 and again put the blame square on you. AGAIN.

I would need 7-10 years of faithfullness before I even considered the much lesser attribute of thoughtfullness. This man doesn't need an EN questionnaire, he needs a 2x4 between the eyes. If he were my husband, he would be running with the cellular up his #ss.

You are obviously a much more forgiving person than I.

Best of luck.

I agree with Cymanca. Trust is earned. I doubt he has earned it. Sheesh, I would never trust him - certainly not is a few short years with his record.

Cymanca's got an important observation here, halseybach.

Your husband should be doing EVERYTHING he can to restore your sense of trust and security.

He should go running with his cell phone.

Thoughtfulness, as Respectful cites, should dictate that he carries the phone. Cell phones aren't huge things -- I run with mine when I'm on travel simply because I don't want to be without it if I need it.

I had a similar incident with my wife. She's had 3 affairs and was on travel for work. I tried to call her cell and got no answer. Tried a bunch of times. Finally called her room phone -- no answer. Approaching 11:00 at night her time -- no answer (2 hours behind our home, so I was up late). The next morning when I do get in touch with her, she's upset about all the missed calls. She claims she went out with the group she was traveling with (someone else drove -- a female) and she forgot her cell phone in her room (she left it charging). Since someone else drove, she was at their mercy of when she'd get home. Obviously, I have problems believing the entire story -- she couldn't borrow a phone to let me know what's going on? Ever hear of a pay phone? But like many times, her story was plausible and I have no real reason to dispute it.

She had the same response your husband did -- "Why don't you trust me!" Duh!! Hello!! I expect her to carry her cell with her everywhere when she travels. I expect her to answer as soon as possible or call me back as soon as she can. This is a minimum expected behavior. It should be for your husband as well and he should not be resentful or angry about having to suffer some consequences for his poor choices.

Blessings

Cymanca,
At its core, people have affairs because they are thoughtless. They let themselves get into situations which they thought were good for them and did not consider the feelings of their spouse. That is thoughtlessness. My husband wasn't concerned about how I'd feel if he was having an affair. He was only concerned that he wouldn't get caught.

As Blessings described, his wife showed thoughtlessness when she wasn't reachable by phone and then she turned on HIM to let him know it was his problem that he didn't trust her. The fog of the BS is to accept that logic. After all, Blessings didn't KNOW she was having an affair.

This line of reasoning misses the point. The point is that, whether the spouse is having an affair or not (which isn't known), to not be reachable by phone is thoughtless. That's what's known, and that's why it is so disturbing to a spouse who wants to be able to reach the spouse by phone.

Focus on having him show you thoughtfulness that you can see and don't worry about the thoughtlessness or thoughtfulness that you cannot see. Otherwise, you'll go nuts and think it's your problem. Sooner or later, he'll be consistent in what you see and in what you don't see. He'll either have the habit of thoughtfulness or he won't.

That's what kept my sanity.

Respectful

shell, I am very sorry you have chosen to live like this. It must be a ****** of a life. I called Dr. Harley's radio show once and asked him about serial cheaters. He believes that they can change, but only if they take EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS to affair proof their marriage.

Doesn't sound like your WS is interested in doing any of that. As long as he is not interested in affair proofing your marriage, you know taht this will be your lot in life. You can't make him change, he must want to do that on his own.

But, at least with multiple affairs under your belt, you know exactly what life with him will be like and have made a conscious choice to live this way. In other words, you are a volunteer.


If you find yourself resenting your choices, I would recommend Dr. Harley's words about serial affairs:

From Dr Harley's article Coping with Infidelity: Part 4 Overcoming Resentment:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

p.s. Cymanca is correct, trust has to be earned. You would be insane to trust an untrustworthy person. You have an obligation to protect yourself from him until he has demonstrated and EARNED trust.

And I dearly hope that you don't have sex with him until he has established trust, lest you pick up some STD. Have you had STD testing?

Protect yourself, Shell!

Thanks everyone for replying.

Let me update you.

I'm exhausted for staying up until 12:45 a.m. last night talking and crying on the phone with DH. He's in Colorado, a two-hour time difference from me. Nothing was solved of course.

Tonight we're fighting again. I asked him to come home earlier because I'm exhausted. I can't wait up that late every night to talk to him. He goes out to eat with all the guys from his class.

Long story short, no compromise from him. They "guys" have their schedule. There is only two cars so he has to wait for them (total 5 guys). I asked why he can't go to dinner with whomever is ready so he can go and get back. Nope. Why can't he just go grab something and come back. Because he want's to enjoy his steak paid for by the company. All about him. Nevermind me here, dealing with his scout den at my house tonight and trying to take care of the kids.

I have been trying to compromise with him, such as Ok, go out to dinner with the guys and have one or two beers. Ok, I can handle that. But please come home earlier so i can talk to you. 11:30 is too late and I'm exhausted from traveling all weekend as it is. The kids are upset. He can't. I give up. I said to him "you know what, fine, do what you want, be selfish, you're not trying to work on this at all with me and I'm done." I hung up.

That was 30 minutes ago. I don't know when and if he will call me but I'm done. The man is totally incapable of helping me and working with me to get through this. It's all about what he wants.

What's so funny is that before he went on this trip, he told me he would do all these nice things to work with me and make it as painless as possible. No facking joy there, eh?

I just can't do this anymore.

There's no need to fight. He has chosen to do what he pleases regardless of the impact on you. He interprets your attempt to compromise as a demand that he has to do things your way.

halsey - please take a look at the links in my sig line, especially the first one. I think they will explain a lot to you. They sure made all the difference to me.
Mulan

Halseybach,

U need to step back and chill a bit. U have every right t/b cautious.

E-mail instead of doing the phone calls. You will find it is less stressful.

Handle what you can and leave the rest. The world will not end if the boyscouts have a few crumbs on their uniform. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As for his wanderings....I use the doubt and reverse babble tactics. He says he is out with the boys, I reply, 'oh hm.....' Irriates the WS' to no end and then you'd have your answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


take care,
L.

Halsey,
I was thinking back over what we went through with my suspicions about his continuing an affair. He was out of the house for two months. He also spent a week at his brother's house. He spent probably 40 nights sporadically over the years in a hotel room.

What happened over and over was I reached a point of intolerance and then just reacted. My reactions were very nasty and not planned at all. I'd say things like "You two deserve each other. Have fun raising six children together."

I think what happened is that I tried to tolerate because my feelings were dismissed and disregarded and I kept thinking -- well, he has a point. I don't know he's continuing his affair.

There were two key problems for me:
1) Willingness to tolerate as a sign of my commitment to marriage, and
2) Reacting rather than planning.

You seem to be following a similar pattern to mine. You are trying to express your feelings, your feelings are being dismissed as overblown, you are trying to tolerate to a point of intolerance, and then you are blowing up in anger and making extreme statements like "I'm done", followed by some calm and a reconciliation and a repeat of the pattern.

Bottom line: Your feelings need to be respected no matter what. That is not happening.

Let him know how you feel. "I feel uncomfortable..."
Then hear what he has to say.

Is he going to say something dismissive of your feelings, is he going to say "Your feelings are your responsibility", or is he going to ask what change in his behavior would make you feel comfortable?

Harley once said on the radio program, "Love is a willingness to change." I thought that was a terrific line. It's not a willingness to tolerate, a commitment to stay together no matter what, a desire to coerce the other person to do your bidding, etc.

It's simply a willingness to understand the other person and work together to meet each other's needs.

Give him the chance to do that. You are muddying the waters by telling him what to do ("Do this to make me happy, or else I'm done") and blowing up when he dismisses you.

And you feel guilty about blowing up.

We attended the Marriage Builders Weekend in June. I had been on MB, obviously, for several years, and had called into their radio show perhaps 100 times. I didn't expect to take anything away from the seminar, but I did. What I took away was the utter futility of trying to change his behavior or convince him to change his beliefs. What I took away was the pointlessness of arguing.

Tell him how you feel.

That puts the ball in his court. It's up to him to make a response.

Respectful

My dear, you are not killing your marriage.

Read the Policy of Joint Agreement on the MB site...it's really appropriate for you both, especially now.

If you are not "enthusiastic" about his trips away, either go with him, or he doesn't go. You should respect yourself enough to negotiate until you are both in agreement. He won't respect you until you respect yourself enough to insist that this marriage is good for both of you...not just one of you.

Find a solution that takes both of your feelings into account. It's the only way. Right now, these trips are killing your love for him. It will eventually erode all the love you have away.

We have the power by our actions to create love, or destroy it. Spend time negotiating together a solution which is good for both of you. If negotiations become unpleasant, stop. Try again at another time, when you can both be kind and calm.

Read the MB articles on conflict...they are golden!

Good luck. You are on the right track.

I think Respectful is on the right track here. Ultimatums are not POJA.

In some households the husband's job is High Priority and trips out of town are non-negotiable, at least in the short-term.

For my husband to match his current salary and seniority after 16 years with the company would require quite a bit of planning and forethought and some luck thrown in.

The last trip out of town increased his value to the company.

It was tough, and we had some difficulty with the same types of things. Dinner out with workmates is part and parcel of out-of-town business trips.

What I do think you should discuss with him when he gets home that you do believe he's being faithful but out of respect for you and because of how much you were hurt in the past you need for him to be extra-vigilant about staying in contact when he's away.

Couldn't he have called you before dinner and then immediately afterward? These need only be 5 minute calls to check in and allay your fears. You can't keep him on the phone for hours while he's away on business, it's just completely unrealistic.

You could POJA a job switch but that does take time and effort, and Personally I'm much less enthusiastic about that then I am about the business trip.

I hope he's back home now and you can discuss with him your fears and his responsibility. If he wants to believe they are irrational fears, so be it, it doesn't matter what he believes as long as he understands that it is necessary to follow through on allaying them in a way that is meaningful to you.

There is no need to argue the point but you can let him know that it is normal for people to predict the future based on past behavior and since he's working on changing his past behavior it is essential for you to see him changing it in a meaningful way.

You have much more power here than you give yourself. I think it would be extremely helpful for you to read up on BOUNDARIES. Forget ultimatums, crying, hand-wringing, and crazy-making.

Make up your mind what you need, tell him what that is, be open to negotiation you can be happy with, and let him choose whether he wants to be happily married to you or not.

That's all you can honesty do.