Oh, BTW, I find this statement from Anna to be very much of a red flag:

"He's resisted [our] relationship each time we get to another step in it."

I'd like to defend my position. I'm not against people taking time to think and consider what they want out of a relationship in general, a relationship in specific and life. I think that's great.

But, when there's been discussion, often lots of discussion, with no resolution, and then the couple breaks up, when all that's happened, I'm very uncomfortable with someone who suddenly sees the light.

Maybe I'd be more comfortable with break-ups leading to "Ah, ha! I love her/him" if breaking up or leaving wasn't the last option for me. I don't think separation or break up should be used as a threat to force another to change. It may be a consquence, but it's not a crowbar.

Therefore, someone who doesn't see the light until I'm out the door, is not a good choice FOR ME.

I'm also very skeptical of those people who suddenly discover they love what they lost. Where were they before? I would not knowingly go into a relationship with someone who would take the relationship and me for granted until it was gone.

And, I'd also have to wonder what AGG wonders: Did the person feel romantic love for me now, or was he just lonely and afraid of being alone? Would he be any more likely to demonstrate care for me in the way I would like him to?

yanno...those who need "wake up calls" are usually the same people who fall asleep at the wheel, again and again and again.....

so much drama...they broke up because it COULDN'T work, so they should stay broken up...the pros and cons don't matter--the fact that there are cons that are DEALBREAKERS makes this a relationship that could never work.

i think good ol' j just found out that Anna met some new guy ...

Though I tend to agree, it is a red flag, we must also look at why he's been that way.

Anna has said numerous times she wasn't looking to get married for a few years down the road...he may be wondering If there really is NO rush to the alter, then why the rush to move the relationship along to the next level?? It's been what a year??

So if she has made it as clear to him as she has to us, that she wasn't wanting to get married for four or five years down the road, why the rush to move the relationship along at a faster pace?

Unless maybe, she really does want to get married sooner rather than later??

Come on, if a woman told you she wasn't looking to get married for a few years, but only wanted to date, and go out and have fun, wouldn't it take you off guard, if what, every six months she started pushing for more of a commitment from you and if you didn't give in she broke up with you? Until she finally gives what comes across as an ultimatum concerning marriage, something she has made a point of saying she wasn't wanting for a few years.

I certainly understand if her feelings have changed on the subject, and her wanting more from the relationship, but that's a matter of her being honest with him about it, and then allowing him time to think about if it's what he wants without necessarily breaking up with him, because he can't give an instant answer.

But I can also understand his being resistant to moving the relationship along to the next level, if he's been under the impression she wasn't wanting more...at this point, I mean, why be in such a rush to move things along, if were not even going to be looking at marriage for another few years...

AGG,

You say you had the same pattern with G and maybe I'm fooling myself but I don't see this in the same way. For one, you told G for 9 months what bothered you, I told J pretty much in one night what my goals were and then when his goals didn't match mine, I broke up with him. See the difference. If I would have tried to let him see the light and stay together, I don't know what would have happened, maybe same outcome...

You also said I have indicated to you I broke up with J more than just because of our goals being different in marriage. I don't recall indicating that. I do recall telling you later that perhaps J wasn't the right person for me for several reasons..such as that he is a bit immature, etc.

I have not made any decisions one way or another. Once I think you asked me what would I do if J came around, I know I had my friends ask me as well and I said I think I would say "No, mainly I am not out there to twist anyone's arm, either they want to be with me or they don't."

Thanks for the comments AGG, of course your opinion is valued to me a lot.

A

no need to defend your position, I understand where your coming from.


But wouldn't it also be fair to say, that since she has made it clear marriage wasn't going to be anytime soon, that he's looking at it from a completely different perspective?

he's thinking..marriage in a four maybe five years, we'll just take this relationship slowly, get to know each other, become friends, yada yada, then all of a sudden...it's not marriage in a few years...it's lets discuss this NOW!! And if we can't come to an agreement right now or in the next six months, then I'll end the relationship..woah...wait a minute..I thought....four or five years..it's only been a year...why the rush??

Well, hmmm okay..so she ended relationship..so now he's thinking..Okay, I was thinking four or five years down the road, am I okay with NOW?? Or a year from NOW?? Let me think about this..so he takes a couple months to think..am I ready to make this commitment NOW??



I agree, it shouldn't be that way, but again, she's the one whose been saying...marriage four or five years down the road...he seemed to be okay with those terms..the terms of the relationship changed...and because he couldn't agree to the terms right then...she ended it..so he took time to consider the new terms...I think it was a wise move on his part to do so...so it's really not an AHA moment..it's re-considering the terms of the original dating agreement.



what light is there to see?? She changed the terms of the dating relationship...put more out on the table..he wanted to consider if he's okay with those changes..



I don't think it's a matter of him discovering he loves her, I believe he already knows he does, but again, she's making changes to what was originally discussed and what he was mentally and emotionally prepared for, and then running out the door instead of sticking around. Thats on her...not him..imo

I don't ever remember being this wishy/washy in my life. I read what Green Gables thinks and I think, "Wow, great point, she hit the nail on the head. I read what TR writes and I think, wow, TR you nailed it." I read what so many of you write and each time, each one makes sense, yet everyone has so many varying opinions!!

I went over my girlfriends house tonight. We talked about this of course. I know that while the "I wanna man" thread fit J pretty much perfectly that if I look at everything about J, he is not perfect, but then I think that I will not find everything I want, it's just an impossible goal, yet I also know that I think about J and thoughts of warm, loving, caring feelings come over me. I know that I am in love with him still, thoughts of him make me smile.

So anyway, tonight he calls. He said in conversation, "I really worry about pressuring you. I have been miserable and you have been trying to move on, if you find you won't be happy with me then I would never want that as much as I want you back." I liked that a lot.

He also reiterated some things such as he said, "We never talked much about marriage, while I knew it was something we would probably do some day, it was way in the future. You shocked me and I do think for whatever reason when you did it, emotionally I shut down because I couldn't think and I wanted time to think about everything you said. Then I handled it all wrong." He also reiterated that he tried to call and talk to me about this early in our break up and I didn't respond well, also that night on IM when I said I never wanted to see him again, he thought that he didn't have a chance any more. He said that night was horrible for him and since then he has been miserable thinking that I wouldn't even consider getting back with him.

He also said what he wants is for us to get back together, to work towards engagement but that he has been thinking about how to fix the problem with the distance between us. Week days are hard when I have so many kid activities and we both have to get up early in the morning. He does not feel comfortable sleeping in my bed while my boys are in the house and neither do I, but he said he would feel comfortable sleeping on my couch and that would allow us time to get to know if we match as a family or not.

We had a very long conversation but I told him he has had two months to think about things while I have spent two months thinking it was over and trying to think of every reason why he wasn't right for me and moving on. I need time to just think about everything. I told him my concerns, how I feel like he has resisted every step of change in our relationship. He said he didn't feel like he has done that. I told him also that I thought he didn't like change and he did see some truth that one.

Well I am exhausted. Everyone on this thread has gave good advice and some really good things to think about, and I appreciate it very much.

Night. (not gonna proof, I hope I didn't make too many errors)

A

Well, I don't mean that it was the same situation - just that it took a breakup for someone to "wake up". I prefer the negotiation approach, because I don't think it is healthy for breakups to become prerequisites for change. Way too much drama, like aeri said.


WHY?? This fact bothers me as much as anything else - why did you break up with him in one single night over one conversation, after what, two years together? It seems like a huge overreaction...


That's what I meant, that there were things other than the "different goals", such as his apparent immaturity, his desire to spend money on himself rather than perhaps you, and what you told me offline about his family and parents... How have those things changed, if at all?


So what are you thinking at this point?


Thanks, hope I am not beating you up too much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Maybe it was, at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. J looked me in the eyes and said, "I don't want to consider engagement for 4 or 5 years." I said to him, "I need to know he's committed. I would rather be married sooner than 4 or 5 years, my life has changed a lot in the last year and I can see it happening now but I would compromise and at least want to know there's an engagement to be married, and then possibly maybe two years after that, which would be 3 years total." He said, "I don't want to consider even engagement for 4 or 5 years."

I thought he was just buying time. He's 38 and NEVER been married, I really didn't think with his comments that I was going to change his mind. To say he didn't want to consider even engagement was enough to tell me I didn't want to stick around for 4 or 5 years to see if he would commit then either.

Just to straighten out something I said wrong, the comment on breaking up in one night was not totally correct, I didn't break up that exact night, I left there thinking I would in my mind I knew I would, but I wanted to think it over, not jump, and then after thinking about it for a few night, I broke up.

A

I'm not very confident about my reaction to this, especially since it sounds as if J may have been somewhat blind-sided by changed expectations. Also, this question bothers me a little:

I'm not at all sure that any of this should come "naturally" - especially in a time frame as short as a year. (For someone who's "not young any more" a year doesn't seem like a very long time.)

But, that said, here's something that really bothers me:

Romance is good. Romantic feelings are good. But if the only reasons being provided for marriage being the right direction are romantic reasons, then I see flags waving; and if the flags aren't quite red, they're at least orange.

Romance (and sex) may be the glue holding a relationship together, but the structural materials need to be something else. Anna, you've described a number of qualities of character and personality, on both the positive and negative side. These are part of what's important (though only you can decide how to weight them), but I didn't see much here addressing matters of lifestyle, values, and goals.

Your thinking long term, and if this is the man YOU really want to spend the rest of your life with. it's not really about being wishy/washy but trying to come to terms with what it is you really want in a long term relationship.


Are you expecting J to be perfect Anna? It certainly comes across that way...can you really be okay with the fact that HE isn't perfect, and never will be perfect?

You seem to have so many expectations that it doesn't give any room for imperfections or mistakes. Is that fair to him or to yourself? Don't you want to be given room for mistakes?


That is love..He is willing to let you go, even with as much as he loves you. He would rather see you happy with someone else, than miserable with him...

it takes a strong and mature person to be able to do that.

But I'm curious, why do you think he's immature?

Sorry I have little time Gnome to respond to your post. I did read it, do have some thoughts on it and will get back to ya.

I just wanted to share with you an e-mail J sent today. It's in response to my e-mail asking if he told his parents of our breakup and their reaction...One thing I never could figure out whether the parents thought I was right for J or not because I know they want grandbabies and I've been there, done that, and finished. So anyway, here's his response...

Hi,
Yes, I did tell my parents about us breaking up. My parents were surprised and shocked. My feelings and emotions essentially shut down immediately when something like that happens (and I sound very cold/stern) which frustrated the ****** out of my mom since I couldn't express what I felt at that moment.
"Why did you break up?"
"What happened?"
"When did this happen?"
"How are you doing?/How do you feel?"

Every time I see them though, they ask "Have you spoken w/ seen her?"....except for that one time several weeks ago I would answer "no".

J

My response back to him...

Hi back,

I appreciate you sharing that with me, and I have to say in a way it makes me feel relieved I am not the only one you can sound cold/stern towards at times. I have seen you do this and it was one of my concerns. I worry that later each time you will shut down on me and it hurts me when you act cold. I know you don't mean to so it's hard to know what to do when you do it.

A


His response back

I'm sorry I do it....I don't know why I do it....I retreat/ run away when I feel overwhelmed but not to hide from it, I think that I need reflect on what is going around me. The "Men are from Mars/ Women are from Venus" seems to describe me somewhat, but not necessarily to the same extent anymore. The sad thing is that when I may appear cold/stern, I'm really not. I'm thinking and trying to mull things over in my head. Using your emotions is like a muscle, if you don't use it regularly, you don't really know how to use it just right.

"it's hard to know what to do when you do it.".....just tell me to go to my cave and come out with an answer...lol (J go to cave know...think about feelings)

J

Okay, Not sure but I think he just bought Men are from Mars while we were apart because I have never heard him talk about the book or caves...

Later, gotta go feed a pig...for real....HAH

Hey Gnome, I am really exhausted, been running since 5:00 this morning but I did want to answer a couple of key questions from you and TR...

I think we are a good match overall. We both think a long the same lines as not believing in living together, not wanting to sleep together while the boys are around, we are both very conservative people, we like going to bed at the same time, waking up at the same time, going to the gym, we both enjoy renting movies, volleyball, swimming, going to the same places, being active, playing things like ping pong. We have similar religious beliefs and political views, morally agree, etc. I think we need to discuss goals more if we were to pursue this, ideas on what retirement should be like, etc.

TR on your question with me thinking J should be perfect or the man I pick should be perfect. No, not all, I was only pointing out that while J fit the list, I do realize he does not meet everything but no one I meet will.

Also, on the question of J's maturity, I think mainly I just see the difference in life's experiences, having children, going through a marriage and going through a divorce, I just see a difference.

I can barely keep my eyes open. If I missed anyone's question through this thread and the person thought I should answer, please ask it again. Sometimes I think about the question, think about how I would answer and then with two boys and a busy job, I forget to actually answer it. Sorry if I did this.

A

As much as I want to jump up and down and yell [color:"blue"] YAY!![/color] to you with that romantic's heart I have, I have to admit that I think this relationship, from dating to engagement to marriage if that is where it goes, is going to be WORK. Now, it might be worth the effort, but only you can know that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

J seems very complicated, for such a near perfect guy.