"My advice is if you're in the middle...not sure if you can or can't, do it anyway. Make your goal to save your marriage and live it with all you've got...can't be a fool or silly for doing that. Gives you clear eyes to look your children in the eye and say, "Here's how to live"...honestly."

Great thoughts, LA. It took me 3 and a half years to get through this mess, but I'm very happy that I took my time. There are no regrets on my part. Our grown children watched our actions, and I believe it has had a HUGE impact on them.

I think there are always exceptions to the rule. In this case I am sure that in some cases as an exception the WS is telling the truth.

The people we were when we met and married changes as we grow older.

What some people want when they are 20 changes over the years. Sometimes two people change so much over time they really aren't compatible anymore.

Then they step outside of the M and have an A and find someone that they are compatible with. It may work out and be the truth.

IMVHO I don't think most people have affairs for this reason. I think it is because their EN's aren't being filled. I think the people that aren't compatible anymore just get a D.

But is it possible for it to be the truth. OF course it could be in some cases.

I wonder about this a lot.

My ex has been living with the OW since April '05 - much longer than the average affair lasts for. It makes me wonder if they are actually pretty compatible after all.

The only thing I know they have in common is the fact that they are teachers. Everyone else says that they've got nothing in common apart from this.

But I don't know. The OW changed herself pretty dramatically to 'fit in' with my ex's life style - became a vegetarian, began drinking heavily; and he changed dramatically to fit in with hers - began a heavy smoking habit, became obsessed with money etc.

They've melded pretty well together so far. The man that my ex is now is certainly more suited to the OW than he is to me. I wouldn't have him in the house.

Alph.

"Maybe WS's are telling the truth..."

well, it all depends... after my H first ONS, when he turned into a WH, we had many many hours discussing he's new point of view that:

"The truth is what you believe in"

Of course he came up with this conception because he was denying the true.

I told him that no matter what, there would always be one truth.


I can relate to this anyway, but, I haven't wandered that much if any of his OW's were or not his soulmate, but I definetely wander if my H is my soulmate.

Anyway, I do agree with all that have been said about the fog, it really exists.

But I'd like to add:

"I don't believe there is one person for each of us. "

I agree, but at some point in our life we make a choice, we get married, we have kids, and from that moment there's only one person for us.

There are couples who FRIENDLY divorce because they realize at some point in their life they, let love die, don't love each other anymore, or have become different persons with different goals grown apart, etc... seldom this cases are related with infidelity, at least the ones I know of.
And I know quite a few within my good HS friends that were HS sweethearts.

In their feable mind of what's left of it, the WS believe the lie. They have to or the A can't survive, even for a little while. Also keeping the BS and family hostage to the A fuels the A.

I have heard of WS' making comparison lists before. LOL!!! So stupid. Remember the A is temporary and the M is long lasting (or s/b).

Her list of you has t/b short. The OM can only look good as long as you look bad. In her WS mind, making a list removes some of the guilt.

If it were me, I'd go make a list also. Guess what kind? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My motto: Keep the WS off their toes and wondering. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

L.

{This is long, I apologize. Breaking news in my story that I don't want to put in my thread right now. But it does tie into this thread}

I'm really wondering about my WS. I have strong indications that my WW, who was in an affair for two years and which I am (was) in the process of exposing and breaking up, is already having SF with another (possibly multiple others?)

I do not post this in my thread right now because there are people that may be reading it that I don't what to know about this yet. I will tie into the relevance to this thread below.

Here is what has me reeling. I went to my parents for dinner tonight. On the way home, I took the long way and drove by a bar that WW frequents and saw her car there. I thought she might be from a phone call she made earlier today. The phone call was suspicious as she mentioned going out with friends who she said I didn't know, etc. etc. D-Day was less than 3 weeks ago. Anyway, I went home, went to bed, and ended up waking up at about 1:00 a.m. in a cold sweat. I layed there for 15 mins and decided that I was going to get up and see if WW was still at the bar and do a little recon. Anyway, I see the leach friends car leave as I was pulling into a parking lot next to the bar. WW's car was still there. I found a spot in a parking lot across the street where I hoped she would not see my car and waited. Sure enough, 15-20 mins later WW comes out of the bar with a guy. His truck was parked right next to WW's car. The parking lot was pretty dark, and I was't close, so I couldn't see much. Anyway, WW gets in her car and heads back towards her apartment (which I didn't even know where exactly it was). Guy in the truck is right on her heels. I pull in behind them at a reasonable distance and follow. I ended up losing their trail towards the end, but I knew that the apt building had to be close to where I had last seen them turn. So I drove around for 10-15 mins looking for WW's car and sure enough I found it. The guys truck was there too. I took down his license plate number and am going to have a PI that does a lot of work for the firm see if he can run the plate for me.

I so wanted to go in and unleash he11 on WW and whoever this other guy is. But, I don't know which apartment is hers in the building and I knew that no good would come from it anyway. I also want to do some more investigation to make sure that this other guy isn't just somebody she met in her building that went drinking with her and her friends. Doesn't seem likely. I'm heading back over there in an hour or so to see if the truck is still there (her apartment turns out to be a 5 minute walk from my office). I can then go to the office and try to do some work or something (God knows I aint sleeping tonight).

So, I'm now in recon mode. WW has our desktop computer at her apt. The desktop has a bunch of files from my law school days taht I need, and there is a lot of music that I had on there, so I am thinking about telling her I need to take the desktop to my office to transfer those files, and when I have it there install a keylogger on it that can forward reports to an email that I set up. Melody had reccommended a program in the snooping thread that I might try for $40.

For now, I am going to assume that my hunch is right, which for some reason is what my gut was telling me this afternoon after her suspicous phone call. If that is the case, my M is over. A two year affair, and now that OM has kicked her to the curb and went back to his wife, she is already out fornicating with another guy. Something is way off with her.

We did have a good marriage. I was a good husband to her. Her parents and sisters love me because I have treated her so well. We did marry very young, HS sweethearts if you will, but I am/was still truly in love with her.

The only thing that makes any sense is that she changed so much in the last six years that she just wasn't compatible with me. We don't have a lot of interests that are in common, but we did plenty of things together, we liked being together and doing things together. WW was always kind of big into public displays of affection (unfortunately, was not at all into private displays of affection) We just went on a vacation to Vegas in Sept with the leech friends (who we paid for the majority of their trip despite them being the ones to book it in the first place). Although it was supposed to be a romantic getaway and an attempt to conceive, we only had SF one time that week and it was the typical her not being at all into it. But we did have an evening that we spent alone, just walking on the strip holding hands and talking. It was one of the highlights of the trip.

I am thinking that WW was being brutally honest when she said that she just isn't physically attracted to me (I'm no poster boy, but I'm not bad looking) and that she isn't in love with me anymore. I just can't fathom how she could be in love with me, have a 2 year affair that is finally exposed, have that affair more or less end, and already be out having SF with some other dude.

Assuming that my hunch is correct, and she is sleeping around with a new guy, I can't imagine me ever wanting to try to work this marriage out now. I am very hurt. I want to do more recon and be able to prove it, but as far as I'm concerned, the M is over. WS Fog or no, I just can't fathom ever trusting her again after this.

Scotty

I remember how that feels, from a BS point of view, and I'm sorry that her words hurt you so much.

But remember this, from a WS point of view:

They are not her true feelings, much as you may think they are (were).

She honestly doesn't even KNOW what her true feelings are. And it's not that she's lieing to you as much as lieing to HERSELF... I truly believe that.

Your thread title was "Maybe WS's are telling the truth"... and you're right, they are telling the truth as they see it... but it's from a VERY distorted, dark and confusing place... like a fun-house mirror.

Eventually, they will know the ACTUAL truth... and the real test of recovery will come when they see themselves and the OP under the harsh lights of reality. Some, sadly, never do take responsibility and have to keep that fun-house mirror around to live in their own skin.

In my opinion - All WS's will know the truth inside, but not all face it. I hope your wife DOES.

I find this thread interesting. My now EX WW is now being a lot nicer (****** she even gave me a key to her hotel room last weekend in order to let me and our daughter in at midnight after we saw a late movie and was lying there asleep) that when we were going throug the divorce and custody hearings. She even had a medical scare a few weeks back that had her not wanting to share with me then changing to falling into my arms to cry uncontrollably.

HERE's the BUT....but, she is still with this loser (and really, all kidding aside, and not to sound like a hurt BS, this guy's picture is beside loser in dictionary, serial cheater, kids don't talk to him, bankrupt even though a MD, OCD disorder, sex addict, immature, old enought to be her dad and if he started early granddad, pathtic looking physically, 6 romantic affairs and 11 sex affairs admitted to under oath, not one real friend, going on mission trips while in two affairs with two different women and more)

I say this to say she seems perfectly content with this idiot and I say she will marry him once he's divorced. She has lost a loving husband who worshiped the ground she walked on, a loving family of in-laws, her 18 month old son, her reputation, self dignity, respect, all decent friends, and more for this loser. Yet, she seems to be just moving right along. This morning she called to speak to our son and we made chit chat and I asked about getting our daughter (my step daughter) Sunday to take to gymnastics competition and she said okay but I have to check with her. We have our Thanksgiving church luncheon Sunday at church and she may want to go to that. She said all of this just like it was the most normal thing in the world to be attending the OM's church, going to a luncheon all the while everyone in the church (it was OMW's church as well) knows these two are being immoral and engaged in an ongoing affair. Didn't seem to bother her one bit. She was chipper during the conversation and we said goodbye.

Could it be that the two of them gave up everything for this and they have to make it work? We can't let everyone that told us how wrong we were be right? I don't know and really at this point don't care other than I find it almost out of this world how these WS's can think and act.

Wow, I canhonestly say that I didn't expect this type of reponse to this subject. Just to let you all know, I appreciate everyones viewpoint.

As for me, I guess when my wife told me she wanted a divorce back in June, I did my best to avoid it, but mentally I prepared for life without her.

I just look around and see all of these other happy couples and think 'Why can't that be us'? The thing is we get along well, we enjoy each others company, we really don't fight, we do well financially, etc. I am in my mid 30's, I should be enjoying my family and life right now more than ever. Instead I go home and pray for bedtime to get here quickly. That is when I am most happy right now at home, when I am asleep. I feel like my home should be a place of safety, and that is not how I feel right now. When I pull up to the house I just sit in my car for a few minutes before I even go in.

I don't want to live like this. I deserve better. My wife is right about one thing, I am a good person, and there is nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

I have done/ am doing my best to save my marriage, and I certainly don't think all hope is lost. But at the same time it feels like this whole thing has been controlled by HER wants and needs. I need to think about mine too. And right now I am thinking that mine include a women who loves me for the person that I am. I have always held the beleif that I would lay down and die for my wife and child if I knew they would never have to feel an ounce of pain in their lives. And this is what I get in return.

Thank you all so much for listening.

TTG...

Have you been doing two things...

Listen and Repeat (10Swords posted a great guide to it here called MIRRORING/VALIDATING/EMPATHIZING recently)?

O&H statements?

LA

My heart goes out to you. Finding that list must have been like a punch in your already fragile stomach.

I just wanted to say that this is so very true:

Marriage and Affairs cannot truly be compared.

This is absolutely true!!!

Your FWS is living in a HUGE fantasy world, and the words she listed for OM say nothing about HIM, the person.
Travel, social life etc, are actions, not feelings, or personality traits. Where is the description of him? such as "he is wonderful, kind, smart, honest"??

Sounds to me like she is looking for a way to escape her reality. Wouldnt we ALL love to Travel more? Have a better social life?? Of course we would. But the truth is, that isnt reality. Most people are not jet setters....we just aren't.

Reality is much harder to deal with.

I get by everyday on the knowledge that *I KNOW* if my FWS and OW were to be together, and try to make a life....it would be over in 2 minutes flat.
She would find out his less than ideal financial side, they would experience having 5 KIDS (3 hers, 2 ours), deal with babysitters, bills, car issues, schools, work, cleaning the house etc. Doesnt sound like much fun, eh?

But THIS is when the love of a spouse keeps a M together.
What will happen when they have to deal with all this, and "think they are in love". IMO, they'll find out real quick that what appeared as LOVE, falls quite short. ;p

I read somewhere around here that TRUE love develops over time. It isnt instant. Love is being there, day in, day out over TIME.


I wish you the best. Keep your head held high and know that you ARE the best and someday she will come out of the fog and see that again.


Oh, and also try to think back to when you and WW first got together. Maybe try and make your own list, (from her perspective) as if back when you first met?
I'd bet there was PLENTY more positives for you at that time!!!!

Time and heavy fog seems to make WS's "forget".
They will re-write history to make it more conducive to continuing the A.

Also wanted to say that I often think THIS to be true as well:

TTG:


Make your own list.

"Wife early in Marriage" VS. "Wife Later in Marriage and during A"

Let her see that. Discuss. Discuss some more.

NExt list:

"Reasons to stay with WS" Vs. "Reasons to leave WS"

You may or may not want to discuss this one. But it can show TTG where he stands in regards to keeping or losing Mrs TTG.

As for the list you saw. I could have wrote that list.

I was involved with OW for 4.5 years. Someone said that this list was WS justification. Your WS list did not put you in a positive light. To be expected under the circumstances. But in my case, I was trying to make a decision. Stay or Go? I decided not to. Didn't leave OW, either, but the list was always in my head. I was just using both women for my personal satisfaction. One was safe and the other was dangerous. I liked the excitement. BS does not ever, ever get the best in lists like these, especially early in the A.

So, do not place much emphasis on this list. Only trust lists that have been created after NC has been established and some withdrawal has occurred.

And the OM was a pig. Remember, your WS was not attracted to him for his looks, she was attrated to him because of:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Do you have any idea?

Start addressing that, and see what happens to you on the list...