I was wondering if someone could provide me information about Givers and Takers, what the simple definitions are, what the effects to the marriage are, etc.

Maybe a good link would help but I would appreciate personal insight from those who have experienced the effects in a marriage.

I really believe that I am a giver and the WW is a taker.

Thanks in advance.

Giver/Taker is a book by the Harley's. Go find it and read it.

L.

If it is more or less self explanatory, I too was the giver, and the WW was the taker. I did everything around the house, everything, for the last 3 years. All she did was eat my cooking, and gripe about what I made, and that I didn't get enough laundry done that day... and I had the full time job.

Orchid,

I'll try and get down to the local Iraqi bookstore this afternoon. Thanks for the great "go find it and read it" advice. I would have probably just have said "it is a good book" had I known it was a book. I thought this was the General Questions section of a Discussion Forum, my bad. I wasnt trying to get something for free uh, like advice.

kuky,

Thanks, I am going to get the book from Haji.

Read this link from the Basic Concepts area on the main site:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html

And by the way you will not find a book called "Giver/Taker" by Dr. Harley.

The book is called "Give & Take, The Secret of Marital Compatibility".

From the book,


Dr H says it's always tempting to consider the Giver "good" and the Taker "bad", but both the Giver and the Taker have their Thoughtless side, and the truth is both are good and bad. They're both good because they care, the Giver cares for others, and the Taker cares for us. They're both bad because they don't care--the Giver cares nothing for our own feelings, and the Taker cares nothing for others'.

There's a secret that neither the Giver nor the Taker understands, and that is we are more effective at meeting the needs of others when our own needs are met.

Here's something I wrote long ago about "The Good Taker and the Bad Giver":

When most of us think of the giver and taker...we tend to naturally think of our giver as the good guy, and our taker as the bad guy. The truth is that both giver and taker possess both good and bad and can have either a positive or negative impact on our marriages.

Harley describes these two "entities" in this way:


The giver is all about love and concern and the taker is our selfish side...so how can the giver be bad, or the taker be good?

Everybody recognizes the "good" in the giver and how giving can enhance relationships, but here's how a "bad" giver can ruin your marriage if all your marital choices are made solely selflessly:

*your giver is not honest....he won't tell your spouse what you need because he more concerned about how your spouse feels, whether your spouse gets his needs met, than protecting your interests or your feelings. If your spouse asks the giver if it's okay to do something....even something you don't want to do...the giver says okay.

*your giver is the one who creates resentment...all that dishonesty cloaked in care....leads to misunderstandings, mixed signals, missed opportunities. The giver thinks...my spouse should KNOW what I need....just like I know what he needs.

*your giver is your martyr....endless giving creates the ever suffering spouse. Givers are praised for their selflessness, but they become very unhappy until all that's left is to somehow enjoy the pain....and get what secondary gain that offers.

*givers avoid risk and change...no rocking the boat...who knows what could happen? Nope, givers like safety....even when that involves enduring discomfort.

*givers believe in unconditional love...because they don't ask for conditions. They just give.

*givers handle your tender emotions...fear, sadness, care, consideration. They also tend to be weepy and needy.

We all know how "bad" the taker can be....afterall he's the guy who makes selfish demands, angry outbursts and most of our other LBs. But how can the taker be "good"?

*your taker is the guy you need at the negotiation table....because your giver will NOT create harmony, fairness, honesty in the dealings. Without your taker, your giver will create an environment of sacrifice....leading to resentment, anger and loss of love.

*your taker is honest about what you need and gives your spouse the information to CHOOSE to show you he loves you in the way that you would like it. He doesn't require mind reading...he lays it on the table.

*your taker fights for what you need and doesn't let you sit home three weekends in a row...he makes sure you're part of the fun.

*your taker is not an enabler or codependent.

*your taker saves your marriage as often as your giver does by making sure that reciprocity exists.

*your taker is willing to take risks and make changes.


As an example, I'd like to put forward my own marriage and how my giver undermined the happiness in my marriage for years. I NEVER went into negotiations with my taker....so I never even got close to getting what I wanted. I always put my husband first. But I wasn't happy. I didn't like it.....and I BLAMED HIM for not giving me what I wanted even though I wasn't honest and he didn't know how to please me. There is no negotiation without the taker...the giver just says "fine", do what you want. I lived with resentment every time he did what he wanted. I punished him for it too. And I was not someone who he would want to spend time with in the future either because I was pretty much angry all the time.

Letting my taker out saved my marriage. Oh to be sure, I couldn't let my taker rant and rage....but once he wasn't in chains all the time, he was far less volatile. My taker is the one who found out that my husband was actually willing and pretty enthusiastice about negotiation. Instead of the old pattern...H wants to do something...I say yes...then treat him badly. The new pattern goes like this....H wants to do something, I tell him how I might feel enthusiastic about that...we come to an agreement about how we can both get what we need....and I treat him well...and we both have fun! He gets to enjoy his activities without guilt. I know that I won't be neglected because we have also made plans together.

Digesting now, thanks.

Reading through this, it seems very possible that I was wrong in that I may have actually been the "taker" giving WW what I thought she needed for happiness?

Though very giving in nature I was, as far as her emotional needs went, off the mark.

I can think of several examples one in particular. Every Saturday and Sunday I would make a big breakfast for the whole family. It felt bad when she never thanked me and only complained about the mess. Come to find shes not really big on breakfast <period>

Maybe she's just not "big" on facing a dirty kitchen first thing in the morning....I know I'm not. I wonder if she'd enjoy you making stuff for the children if you cleaned up afterwards too.

But I think you're right about people being "off the mark"....I think it happens alot. You can put an ENORMOUS amount of energy into your marriage and not raise the lovebank balance if you aren't putting that energy into the your wife's important emotional needs. Many people make the mistake of giving their spouse what they would want.....and it can backfire. Perfect example....if a man is upset....he often wants to be left alone. So if his wife is upset....he'll leave her alone....when what she really wants if for him to talk to her.

It's so great that you are really thinking about this.

I have to say that I empathize with what you're saying.. I did all this stuff to make my husband happy, but it wasn't what he wanted so it didn't fill his love bank.

I was expending all this energy shooting deposits at his love bank, and they were all wooden nickels for him.

It's fine to do the breakfast thing if it makes you happy for yourself, but the trouble is with "expectations" - you wanted something in return, her "thanks" or appreciation. When you didn't get that your own expectations set you up for disappointment in her. Understanding this is part of owning your own stuff.

Don't beat yourself up over it, though, as Maya Angelou said, "we did then what we knew to do. when we knew better we did better."

In the future you will know not* to fill her love bank with golden nickels you'll have to fill her love bank with the stuff she really wants.

Have you identified her Emotional Needs?

In another thread I mentioned how she became silent over the years and relinquished control. I kept plodding along thinking everything was OK and took over all of the responsibilities until BAM.

I dont know but somehow, as strange as this may sound, I dont think she trusts me with her feelings or emotional needs yet. I am also not sure that she really knows. Is that possible. WW may have self-esteem issues that are unchecked and I think she may feel intimidated in communicating her primary needs.

I have been trying to examine our relationship and am still searching for answers. It was suggested that I "own my own whys". So I am trying to shift the focus to what I may have done that contributed to A. One thing for sure, my listening abilities need significant improvement.

There are all kinds of human foibles that can conspire to create the weakness that allows an affair. It's much like untangling spaghetti, messy and frustrating.

Actually I don't think it sounds strange at all.

You don't know each other that well anymore. This was an eye-opener for me during my husband's affair. He kept accusing me of things that were far outside my character -- it was as if he didn't even know me. Because he didn't.

In some ways he forgot who I was. I believe this has to do with his own frustrations and fears and justifications, things he told himself about us that justified his reasons for the affair, the things that fed his entitlement.

From a woman's perspective, if I don't 'feel' the love I don't want to reveal myself. This just maybe where she is, or not. We're all individuals.

Have you begun Plan A? Is she willing to Recover at this point?

I am only going by what she has told me, so I dont know what to believe. But, yes she is willing to work it out and wants to recommit to the marriage. She also swears off contact with OM.

I talk to her daily and try to get her to come out of her shell. Anyway we have opened up alot (by phone) and after she is able to do it she says she feels very much in love. That the conversations we are having are a high for her. (Emotional Freedom?)

I dont think she realizes that I am still on the roller coaster ride of my life though. That may be frustrating to her as I am still asking for details etc. When I ask her when it started or shifted to a PA she says she cant remember. That is troubling to me.

Pride is a big thing for me, so I am taking this humiliating exeperience very badly. Somedays are better than others though.

Thanks

When will you be home with her again.

As you work out your relationship and become "new" and fall deeply in love with each other, you will both want to share and be transparent. Being in love stimulates the giver. Falling in love through written communications is a good thing, too, I think. I think you're on the right track.

My favorite Harley Book is Fall In Love, Stay In Love.

If you can become a man who lives his marriage that way, it would be pretty irresistible to your wife. There's nothing on earth like having a husband who shows his love for you that way everyday. He's (my husband) the FWS and yet I struggle to keep up with him in many ways. He knocks it out of the ballpark every day.

Stress on "FORMER".