"My wayward is a wonderful person, besides the A's that he/she had on me"

WTF???

My wife said this exact statement to me while we were dating. I asked her "what then constitutes a bad person"? Her EX had mutltiple affairs on her, yet she said he was a good person. I told her good people DONT do that?

I asked what would you consider a person that doesnt cheat, or lie and also does the RIGHT things???.....an awesome person, a better than good person??......what?

My wife had a blank look on her face.........

She finally saw my point.......she said, "I guess you are right......He wasnt a very good person at all"

Its almost like saying........"he/she was a wonderful person, besides the armed carjackings they did" (extreme example I know)

If a wayward is going to put their spouse and family (kids, relatives) thru H#LL and back by having one affair or multiples, I really dont see how they can be considered a good person at all.

JMHO!

Please comment.

If I cannot consider my wife a good person even though she had an A, I would certainly not be interested in being married to her. JMHO. If having an affair makes a person bad by default, no M should ever attempt to be recovered.

If a person is bad because they commit a crime, I think capital punishment should be applied for every single crime. Rehabilitation is, by definition, impossible. Kill em all, I say.

Post deleted by Shaden

Post deleted by Shaden

Er, I'll stand by my previous post. Off with their heads!

LOL

SO,

Time and time again, we hear betrayed spouses talk about their waywards as though they are two different people. When affair dynamics and biochemistry are in place....it's as though aliens have replaced their wayward with some "thing" that just looks like their spouse. A heretofore ethical, spiritual....good person....becomes a lying, duplicitious monster. So who is the REAL spouse? Are they both the REAL spouse? I guess for me.....I look at my former wayward spouse as a really good man whose proven that he is capable of really bad things. Because of that....I may still love him and want to be with him....but there is no question that he will never truly have my complete trust or my complete respect. The past cannot be undone. And the truth is that every "good" person on earth is capable of "bad" judgment, actions, etc.

Shaden, you have me very confused. First you say that "choices are bad or good." Then you end with "Extremely bad choices... but still potential for good. They are neither bad nor good."

Which is it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Really? You don't even believe that Hitler was bad? Jeffrey Dahmer? You don't believe that Mother Theresa is good? Do you differentiate between Charles Manson and Mother Theresa? How else would we be defined if NOT by our behavioral choices?


Yes, I was a BAD PERSON when I was a practicing alcoholic. Being honest about that was the ESSENTIAL FIRST STEP in recovery. I don't need to lie about that. GOOD CHARACTER is not defined by being perfect, but by how we HANDLE our wrongdoings.

I was a BAD PERSON when I was a practicing alcoholic, but I made amends for my bad behavior and CHANGED into a GOOD PERSON. But I don't need to pretend I was a "good person making bad choices" or somesuch nonsense. I was not. How else is a person defined if not by their actions? I can't very well claim to be a good person today if I deny any such standard and pretend like I was always good, I wasn't.

A bad person can turn into a good person and vice versa. But it always comes back to this simple truth, good character is defined not by being perfect, but by what we DO with our bad deeds.

PERFECT explanantion of this, though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...I consider my FWH a person of GOOD CHARACTER because he was able to ACKNOWLEDGE his WRONGNESS and ask for my FORGIVENESS...

EXACTLY!

StartinOver,

For anyone to allow themselves to avoid the truth about their behavior is setting the stage for a never ending cycle of failure. People do NOT define “goodness”, in any walk of life, as cheating, lying, deceiving, being promiscuous, or hurting everyone close to them.

You’ll hear it from me that I have at times in my life been a totally rotten stinker of a human being; selfish, neglectful, deceiving, hurtful.

I own each and every day of those choices. My loved ones and me, we all share in the pain of decisions that I made in life that were hurtful.

Just dumping the raw thoughts of my mind down here on electronic type I’ll have you know that I think that anyone who acts in ways that are exceedingly selfish and hurtful to themselves AND others is a bad person.

The good news is that people have the opportunity to change. We all have the ability to see our actions for what they are and how they affect others.

Personally, I have pity on addicts that ruin their own lives with little effect on other people directly. I think it’s a shameful waste of a human being’s time on this planet to indulge in that behavior without trying to change.

However, adultery is something that pushes the bounds of human sufferance. It’s the icing on the cake for the ever self indulgent cake eater. It is EXPECTED that it will result in complete obliteration of all things sacred when you engage in this act.

So, in light of all that, and the fact that it pretty much stands on it’s own merit; tell me how someone engaged in adultery could be a good person.

I’m waiting for anyone that can support that notion. Hel!, I’m convincible if they have good enough game. It would make my life a lot easier to know that my FWW made choices that weren’t despicably evil and self deprecating.

Plank,

My husband is basically a good person.

He cheated on me.

He is a basically a good person who acted on impulse and did something completely idiotic and out of character.

This one act does not define his character, it was out of character.

Now, had he been prone to doing things that were basically bad, like robbing banks, swindling old ladies, lying, assaulting people, cheating, murdering, stealing, hurting children, and similar dastardly doings, he would have been described as a basically bad person who did yet another bad thing.

But that isn't what happened.

He is a basically good person who did a bad thing.

He is prone to helping elderly people on the weekends by mowing their lawns and repairing their homes. He takes care of his parents. He has (up until the A) been honest in our communications. He is honest in business dealings, and on his taxes. He is charitable in the community. He does not steal, hurt others, or commit crimes.

He succumbed to weakness, and is remorseful and repentant. His sense of guilt is incredible, and after a year, still bursts out in tears over his own misdeeds, and how he has hurt me.

A bad person would not feel the guilt, he would not care that others were hurt, and he would not feel remorse.

I have met bad people, and have been a victim of their crimes. They hurt you, and they go on with their lives as though you do not exist. They don't look back to see if you are bleeding. They kick you while you are down, and enjoy it. They shed no tears. Instead, they look for the next opportunity to take something from you and claim it for their own. And they laugh at you for believing that they can be redeemed - and laugh if you think that you might have a hand in redeeming them. My husband is not, and has never been, a bad person. It is not in his nature to be bad.

Stupid at times, certainly, but never, ever, bad.

IMVHO.

SB

Schoolbus,

You know I really enjoy reading your posts because you’ve worked your way through a lot of these things with an excellent attitude.

I never said that your H or anyone can’t be a good person if they’ve done evil deeds.

What I am saying is that there is a line in the sand that HAS to exist depicting “good or bad” behavior.

People that have A’s, while in the midst of their emotional robbery, are HORRIBLE awful bad people. This would include even your H during his A. No exceptions.

Where some people understand infidelity as “neediness” I recognize it more as self indulgent exceedingly selfish cowardice steeped in entitlement and realized through barbaric actions of self celebration.

There are many kinds of infidelity. Some are violent rages against a S, some are pity parties because the poor baby doesn’t get what he/she wants ALL the time, some are boredom (probably most), some are due to temporary lunacy. But they are all bad deeds executed by then bad people.

We, as people, can NOT allow ourselves to cull out the bad from a person’s history and declare them good. There are a lot of people on this planet that have done horrible things that would love another chance to integrate back into society if we would let them. But we won’t.

You hit the nail right on the head when you said [color:"blue"]“He succumbed to weakness, and is remorseful and repentant. His sense of guilt is incredible, and after a year, still bursts out in tears over his own misdeeds, and how he has hurt me.[/color]

If you take away those words remorseful and repentant then I would say he was still a pig. With those two words, however, he has earned his way back into the fold of honor no longer to be disgraced.

Adultery is one the few violations of living where you get the chance to define your “ugly mistake” by your future actions. There aren’t many second chances like that.

Schoolbus, I really envy your viewpoint on things. You have a way of disarming things that I simply can not deal with. That’s probably more about my inability to acknowledge grey than anything else. Black and white is so comfortable sometimes.

Unfortunately my wisdom is still in the blossoming stages and I have not the capacity to excuse heinous acts of intellectual butchery; unless the perpetrator is truly those two words that you used above.

Now back to the business of mental self flagellation over all of this yet again.

Beautifully eloquent, SB.

(I think you might be married to my husband, you described him to a "T" but I would add, "he's wonderful with children".)

Yesterday we watched The Breakup. Near the end he got really misty and came over and hugged me real close and said, "I appreciate you."

I really think the trouble with this thread is that the operative word in the leading quote is "HAD":

I don't think my ex was a bad person before he began his affair.

He was prone to selfishness and arrogance, but he was also a good father and sometimes cared about other people.

I don't think he had any idea how much his affair would hurt his family.

However, it soon became very apparent how much it hurt us - his 12 year old daughter talking about suicide, his five year old wetting the bed and enduring terrifying nightmares, his wife wasting away to virtually nothing and eventually ending up in hospital.

All these things were obviously a direct result of his actions, yet still he continued. And continues to this day.

To see the agony caused by your bad choices so graphically before you, and to still continue on your course, is, in my opinion, evil.

My ex wasn't an evil man. But he is now, because he continues without a hint of remorse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Alph.

Ok, just have to start by first saying...ROTFLMAO. That was freaking hilarious...I need a good laugh these days, and this fulfilled the requirement today...so, thanks!!


I believe that the keyword here is WAYWARD. The WW spouse sucks ~ there is nothing "wonderful" about a WW. Nothing.

It's the pre-WW spouse, and the post-WW spouse that is (usually, hopefully) wonderful.

Just MVHO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

~MF

omg startin over, my wexh said the same words to me!!!

he actually told me last winter that he and ow were, and i quote "good people"!
i agree startin... WTF?!

i answered, "yes, you're right, you are every parents dream"
everyone hopes to have kids who turn out just like this.

the fog is so thick it is incredible.


he actually thinks that he and she ARE good people, who, oops! just happened to break up 2 marriages and hurt 4 families, and destroy 2 children... but other than that little minor mistake (as he puts it, what? the damage is already done, might as well move on) they are all good inside and out with hearts of gold.

narcissistic sociopaths who should be committed.
i agree, off with their heads!
mlhb

Stratin',

I agree with you. While a one is a WS, they are NOT a good spouse, sibling, parent, neighbor, worker, boss, relative, friend, etc. Why not? Because WS' don't fit into our realm of life. They originate from another spiece. Periodically they are allowed to enter a human. When that happens, the unthinkable and often unbearable occurs.

Do I mean that literally? Not in the true alien sense but in the reality of how a person can change drastically into such a cruel and unknwon creature.....yes.

Scary ain't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Btw, I did similar with mine when he was a WS. He wanted us to believe he was could, I asked HIM to explain and stopped trying to 'assume' I knew his definitions. I was surprises how twisted his vocabulary and skewed his definitions had become. That's when I learned NOT to assume I knew what he meant.

L.

L.

It's not clear to me that StartinOver's beef is with those who have ACTIVE waywards, or FORMER waywards because "he"(?) did use the Past-Tense "had", not present tense "having", and he clearly was talking about the Betrayed Spouses speaking about their loved ones. That's what piqued my interest in the thread.

This got me laughing 10Swords.

Maybe I’ve had too much IC??!!?

My point of intent in posting here is that FWS’s that do absolutely nothing to recover are shmucks that just want to have a mulligan until they can reach the justification threshold for another *sshole maneuver.

The people that learn from their mistakes and try to right wrong while growing as a person are the ones that are great FWS’s.