No, I do not have a problem with my six children "talking back" to me. If they were to say something that hurt my feelings, I would let them know that, but I would not punish them.

I do have a problem with children talking back and being snotty. But that is very different from children questioning and wanting me to understand their viewpoint. There’s a fine line I suppose between the two… well, except when the talking back includes 4 letter words... that's just rude.

Yes I’m sorry to say that my kids must have spent a few months in the navy, or perhaps it was middle school. They go to their room and loose all sorts of privileges for talking back and foul mouths.

However, a parent has to be careful about over responding to back talk. Children are pretty good at manipulating situations. If they think that talking back will change the subject from an uncomfortable one, or if they think it will fluster the parent… they’ll do it in a heartbeat. I've found that a child will keep it up until the adult stops the entire conversation... they have to win at all costs.

Children will 'win' at all costs, even if it distroys them. So getting into a fight of wills with a child is just a downward spiral.

Neu, something just hit me. Kids will size up a situation very quickly.. they will find things that pit one parent against the other… that way they rule the home by keeping it emotionally stirred up. Do you think your step kids are doing this?

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>

Neu,

I've been doing a lot of thinking about all this. Before I respond further, could you tell me more about your step kids? What are they like other than talking back? What are the absolute worst things they do?

Another question, when your step kids are at their father's, what do you and your wife do with your time alone?

I fully understand its frustrating that your point of view is being ignored, I dont know how to tell you to get over or past that feeling,If she is able to keep the kids close to in line without your input maybe its better that you pick your battles on those issues. I dont see you getting any satisfaction on this issue,and she seems unwilling to move on it.I used to say deal with it, the kids grow up and you get whats left over, if your bitter about the kids it will spill over into the marriage and kill it before they ever leave, and nothing will be left over. I had bad feelings about my step kids but i hid them to try and make my marriage survive,sadly my wife was not able to hide hers and we will be seperating soon.I filed my feeling about her kids under"their loss" and went about my business, my wife couldnt contain her bitterness and it boiled over to the point that even friends and relatives see her anger.

Zorweb,

The kids "talking back". If any of the kids does something wrong that needed to be addressed by me or my W when the subject is over, it's over, but all of them feel the need to have the last say on the matter even after we have said no more talking on the subject matter. They will go and do it anyway and keep on talking while we are telling them to shout up. This is something I really didn't notice about them (kids) until after my W and I married.
You might think perhaps because I am involved, that's not the case. There are times when I stay clear of certain matters and my W still gets talked back to by her kids.
There are occassions were I have made agreements with them. For example, the oldest child asked me if he could go to his friends house for a while. He knew that is bedroom was a mess and needed to be cleaned. I told him he could go if when he returned home he cleaned his room, he agreed and away he went. He returned home and it was after 8pm and he was tired. He asked me if he could do it the next day, fine. The next day comes and goes and nothing was done to the room. He came home played on the computer and video games. I reminded him about our agreement, he than said he was going to do it. That day and the following day the room didn't get done. Now, when I came home from work he was playing video games. I being understandably upset told him to get off the game and go clean his room, which has dirty and clean clothes all over the floor and food that has been left in there for days. Even upset I reminded him about our agreement. "I don't feel like it now". He starts crying, which is normal for him to do when he doesn't get his way. He walks off to his room with an attitude and slamming the door. Then I hear him say "He's not my dad". Now that hurt!!! true I'm not his father. His father would never go for his room being the mess it is and especially not as long as I have.
I get the rolling of the eyes and I'm telling my mom!
My W in her own right is a slob and her kids follow right after her. If you came into own bedroom you would know who sleeps on one side of the bed and who sleeps on the other.
I like a clean environment, is there anything wrong with that? I told my W how I was on every aspect of home living before we got married just so there would be no surprises.
We purchased a area rug shortly after we got married to change the existing one that by the way was covering an area of the original rug for that room that was there when she moved in. Upon removing the old area rug, I saw soda and juice and food stains, that came from the kids. Not wanting the same fate to befall the new area rug I told them no eating in that room. They got upset even my wife. The question became why not. When I expalined it to them they didn't except it.
So after a while I got tired of agruing with the kids and W over it and let them do there thing. Yes friends it than didn't take them long at all to mess up the new area rug and my wife said nothing about it.
I have to be the one to stay on them about chores and cleaning. If one child has kitchen, that means all day. Do the dishes as neededand put away, take out the trash, wash and put away pots and pans used to prepare/make dinner.
No not them even my W. Food that wasn't eat'n (left overs) remain in the pots/pans in the kitchen on the stove over night and thats food gone to waste. That has cost more than $400.00 in wasted food in my est. since we've been married. Sometimes the left overs, which are go meals like ribs, pork chops, etc. is enough dinner of 1 maybe 2 nights in the week, or lunch the next day or so for my W and I, but goes to waste because of laziness.
I don't even invite friends over because they are such slobs.
No I don't call them slobs to there face. I have however, called them nasty on 1 or 2 occassions were they have made me really upset.
I have talked and talked to my W about this to the point were I don't anymore, because I get no where and she gets upset/attitude. I just don't like living like that. I try to show them a better way/quality of living, but there happy in there mess, and yet it kills me every day I come home. No one seems to care about my feelings <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . I'm not a person how gives time to self pitty, but these things are killing me.
Zorweb, do you think it's possible or very likely, that my W get upset/attitude with some of the things I have addressed with her and told everyone here because she knows that on some of these issues she know I'm right and perhaps even resentments me a little for being right. Maybe she has heard it from others (family, member, close friends)? When we get into agruements over all the things I have discussed in this forum she says "H you're just PERFECT!!"
Now I freely admit to her and you that I'm no where near perfect the only perfect person I know is Jesus <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Is it perhaps she is upset because she hasn't followed through on anything she has told me and when I bring it to her atention she realizes this?
Now, please address this question that I asked sometime ago. Do you or you not feel that she is pushing me away?
neu

Can I respectfully suggest that if the housework is bothering you, do it yourself. Try flylady.com for ideas, she also has a bit on stinkin thinkin and how families come around when they see that the house is being kept up. I know it's tough, good luck

Zorweb,
You asked two questions that I forgot to respond to so here goes. 1) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be supportive in certain ways like a parent, without really being a parent</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. I mean I am limited to what I can stay or do. Again mind you this has nothing to do with being emotionally or physically abusive. My dad was like that and I would never want any child to remotly deal with that type of childhood wheather they were my kids or some child in Russia. I just feel "hand cuffed". I feel like a pro. Basketball/Football player I'm on the side lines, but am only called into "play" when I'm needed. It's almost like being a toy. Played with when wanted, put/thrown away when not wanted.
2) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you and your W do when you have time Alone</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.
Well 92% of the time see stays in the bed sleeps/watches TV, washes kids and her clothes.
6-7% is going shopping (food, clothes for boys or herself), finding gift for family member or friend.
3-4% goes to H & W time. 3/4 of that time plus she is still focused on her kids. Those rare times when we are together though she is there is body majority of the time her mind is elsewhere like her kids, even though they (kids are with there father).
You might be thinking I may be streching this a bit, but I submitt to you this is the truth.

Neu,

I read your threads and think "why is he married to this woman?" It is clear you two have very different ideas about how home and hearth should be. I know everyone says 'but I love him/her'. However, in my experience this will not overcome completely divergent ideas about life and how it should be lived.

You should not be the maid that picks up and cleans up after children that show you no respect and aren't yours and your W constantly reminds you that they aren't. You should not be paying to clean up after them either. That should only happen if W is kicking in as well.

Frankly, this issue is a non-starter. This isn't about meeting needs or not. She views the children as her's and her's alone to raise. You have been offered some ideas of how to handle the discipline issues, but unless the W is into this same thing it won't work. Then we come down to a major issue: You cannot invite friends to YOUR home because of the state of the house. Now you could hire someone to clean it for the occasion and bolt shut the kids rooms. But, frankly then YOU are entertaining friends not you and your W.

I keep seeing two people with little in common, and major issues about the basics: children's behavior, basic issues such as the houses habitability, etc. If you don't get counseling for these issues, my recommendation would be to leave.

I will say having 3 children of my own, they rarely are perfect. The good news is that when they get to be teenagers they won't talk back as much because they won't talk at all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . However, you will still get lip if you allow it. Since you have no choice in the matter, and it is clear they don't view as someone to respect (you not being their father and being reminded of it is very normal, it is a test to see if YOU will hang in there, when their mother and dad did not.)

Which gets me to the end of this post. I think you should do what the children are telling you to do, GET LOST. Your W seems to be adding a tepid confirmation to that. The only things that would change my recommendation is if you decide you love your W dearly and you AREN'T going to be driven off by their behavior.

Whether you are the parent or the step parent, being a parent is no bargin for a long while.

So, really I don't see much to offer you. The situation is as it is, you just have to decide how much you are going to let it determine what you want to do.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

First, I'd like to address dean's comment:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dean790:
<strong>it seems like it is a mother?s nature to put her children ahead of anyone else...I know this in itself may seem selfish, but I wanted my wife to give me what I would give to her - number one priority.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think you are selfish, I think you are a bit clueless about parenting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Any mother (or father) that did not put their children first would be a huge red flag to me. When you get involved with a single parent, you need to understand that kids are part of the deal. I'm not talking about kids who are 17-18 years old, but certainly anyone under the age of 13-15 or so. Anyway, I think you are wise for sticking to dating childless women, since you don't want to have to share. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Neu, I read your posts with interest, and your last one really made me think. I think, as JL pointed out (Hi JL!), that the real issue is not as much your stepkids as it is your wife... You seem to have stepped into an unexpected situation, where your wife's habits regarding a whole number of things do not mesh with your expectations (parenting, morals, values, cleaning, etc). I guess the first question that pops into my head is "how well did you know this woman before you married her?", but obviously that is all irrelevant at this point.

I don't know if I have a good answer for you; from your last post, I can sense your disgust with the mess that you are living in. Sigh, I was there too. My ex was a complete slob as well: any project she would start would end up occupying half the house for weeks after she was done with it - somewhow I always ended up cleaning up after her; I would trip over her shoes, clothes, dishes, etc, that she left wherever was most convenient at the time (including in the middle of the hallway).

Unfortunately, as JL said, there is not an easy way to change this. People are wired differently, and while to you your wife and kids appear to be slobs, I can guarantee you that they view themselves as normal and you as some psychotic neatnik or a controlling freak. Sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . So, every time you want to establish "rules" for cleaning, your wife (and hence her kids) will be resentful. In the long run, someone is going to get an ulcer.

Like someone suggested, perhaps getting a housecleaner might help. However, my experience is that this will only be a bandaid. In between the weekly visits by the cleaning crew, you will still be overwhelmend by the spilled juices, piles of laundry, and decaying food.

Perhaps you should spend some time talking to your wife about your feelings on this issue, and see if you can come up with some mutually agreeable solutions. As much as I hate to say these words, the other option might be to go elsewhere, and find someone that you would be more compatible with. Although I have to admit that I shudder at the thought of the kids seeing another breakup. But perhaps if the tension level is that high, it is the best solution.

Good luck.

AGG

PS. My experience is that the differences between slobs and neatniks creates as much (if not more) marital discourse as most other personality differences, and I don't think there are easy ways to resolve these...

JL,
I was hoping I would hear from you! You made a statement about this being some type of test from the kids to see if I would "hang in there". I guess I just pray and see what happens.

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: neuschwanstein ]</small>

AGoodGuy,
Hi! You asked how well did I know my W before we got married, I guess not good enough. She hid these present issues well. Did you ever buy a book that the cover looked great and upon reading the first two or three pages looks great, but when you take it home and really get into the book it wasn't nearly as good as you were lead to believe?
Get my point <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> !

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by neuschwanstein:
<strong>Did you ever buy a book that the cover looked great and upon reading the first two or three pages looks great, but when you take it home and really get into the book it wasn't nearly as good as you were lead to believe?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I sure did... That was the difference between the woman I married and the woman she turned into. Although I'm sure she would say the same thing about me
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel after being married to her she didn't do what it took to keep her first H from cheating on her and eventually leaving her for the woman. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is probably the rudest comment I have ever heard.

Your entire post, (where everyone is dogging your wife whom they do not know) reminds me of my childhood. Except that it was the other way around. My mom let my step dad take over. she didn't want the responsibility anymore. My step dad was in military school for most of his young life, so you can imagine the discipline he wanted to lay down. Eventually I grew to resent my mother for not protecting me against him. He never hit us or deprived us of food but that was the only things she would not allow him to do. I just want to state that this is the main reason why I want to keep my marriage to my H. The father of my children.

You have never had kids, yet you seem to know so much about parenting. The best you can hope for is to be friends of theirs. You should not expect to be their father, because you are not.

I think if I ever got a D and then remarried, it would either be to a "Mr. Rogers" or I would wait until my children were grown.

P.S.
You could have the relationship that my Step dad and my mom have now. They are all alone in TN. and my brother and I don't speak to him and only speak to my mom on holidays. Resentment hurts!

TGIRL, I tried cleaning my house when my wife didnt get to it, instead of calling it help and appreciating it she started waiting for me to "handle "it,since I was so good at it, it gave her more free time....to run up the phone bill..

Jenni70,
first of all the statement was not to seem rude.
Second, As I don't have children of my own I am going to make mistakes. That is why I have come hear for help and sound advice.
Third, Dogging my wife out........... The information that I prove is the truth. Giving all issues related to my matter is important in recieving good counsel. Would my wife agree with the statements I have made, in most cases NO. Than again she can't even be totally honest with her closest girlfriends in my opinion because she doesn't want to she herself.
Now as for the parenting thing again. I am taking the sound advice given to me and see how it goes.
I sorry for you that you feel the way you do about your step dad that you have no contact with and your mom whom you have little contact with. However, I'm sure your past experience and my present are no doubt different on many levels.
From what you have posted you are coming from the view of a child "caught in the cross hairs" of the blended family with some "issues".
I seek help and sound advice with humor from you all in an attempt to travel the road you unfortunately had to. May God Bless You <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
neu

Jenni70,
first of all the statement was not to seem rude.
Second, As I don't have children of my own I am going to make mistakes. That is why I have come hear for help and sound advice.
Third, Dogging my wife out........... The information that I prove is the truth. Giving all issues related to my matter is important in recieving good counsel. Would my wife agree with the statements I have made, in most cases NO. Than again she can't even be totally honest with her closest girlfriends in my opinion because she doesn't want to she herself.
Now as for the parenting thing again. I am taking the sound advice given to me and see how it goes.
I sorry for you that you feel the way you do about your step dad that you have no contact with and your mom whom you have little contact with. However, I'm sure your past experience and my present are no doubt different on many levels.
From what you have posted you are coming from the view of a child "caught in the cross hairs" of the blended family with some "issues".
I seek help and sound advice with humor from you all in an attempt not to travel the road you unfortunately had to. May God Bless You <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
neu

Sorry, it seemed like one solution to the problem. How did she keep her house when you met her? (I know that doesn't solve any problems now)

Tgirl,
thanks anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Hmmmm, how did she keep her house. well it kind of difficult to say. I don't think it was bad, I really can't remember.
The one thing I will say is this. Before we got married to told her everything about me. My likes, dislike, my expectations if you will so there would be any surprises down the road. Alas I didn't recieve the same courtesy in kind.
neu <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I would like to speak to the idea of discipline in blended families:

From my experience, and from work I have done in therapy (as well as advice from my mother, who is a psychotherapist)...

STEP PARENTS NEVER DISCIPLINE.

Yes, there are rare exceptions, as in the step- parent who becomes the only parent to a child (though death or abandonment of the bio parent)...

Or in the case of a child(ren) whose parent marries while the child is very young and that child sees the step-parent *as* the other bio parent...

In both cases, it takes a VERY SPECIAL person to step in and parent the child... and VERY LOVING. Being a step parent is, in it's way, the most difficult job of all. It takes lots of hard work, love, and full cooperation of all involved.

In most situations though, the children have two parents, and they are solely responsible for discipline.

AGoodGuy,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I sure did....That was the difference between the woman I married and the woman she turned into. Although I'm sure she would say the same thing about me.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> LoL! that's funny! But like I wrote Tgirl there was no surprises with me. I was up front and everything and haven't changed.