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Hey bOb,
I am calling you out because it seems so uncanny that your feelings so often echo mine. It's been 4 and 1/2 years since D-Day for me and yet I'm still feeling so empty inside that I've often come to the conclusion that there simply has to be something wrong with me in this whole process.
My journey has not gone all that well, in that my FWW does not and will never want to truly participate in any kind of real recovery process. For her, the best thing that can happen is to completely forget about what happened and pretend it never was. The problem as I see it, is she wants me to EXCUSE HER rather than FORGIVE HER.
She has never :"had time to read SAA or any other book I've suggested" in terms of recovery, but has somehow read 3 romance novels and the Devici Code. Hmmmm….. Seems sorta strange don't y0ou think?
Oh well, I have admired your resolve and think only that I may still have a lot to learn in spite of all my efforts. I can't help but to think that you have somehow done something to impress Squid that I failed to impress upon Gail. My worst fear is that she somehow, still , doesn't really "get it."
Being betrayed somehow changes a persons life forever. I know you feel the same way, but, how do we get our FWW to begin to realize that? My FWW thinks that things will just return to "normal" if I woulds just let go of this. Is she right, or am I all wet in thinking that it will take much much more that that?
I've posted to you, bOb, in the distant past, and my original post is probably lost in the archived posts by now, but I think I need your counsel. May seem strange since my D
_Day was much earlier than yours, but some of us don’t fair as well as others when it comes to true recovery.
Any thoughts you could suggest would be greatly appreciated.
All Blessings

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Hey ST

Nice to hear from you, albeit with you facing yet another challenge.

These days I feel I get something of a aerial view of the landscape of marrigebuilders so get to see trends and generalisations. I'm sure you do too.

While some WS are highly contrite and willing to work as soon as they get their "F" , others seem to have a steely rod of entitlement within them that makes them resist full contrition and full investment in recovery.

With Squid she wanted to be excused AND forgiven. It was the hard yards of self analysis and change she was reluctant to do.

Like you I tried to settle for less than enthusiastic contribution to our recovery for a long time, because I knew how entretched Squid's discomfort-avoiding instinct could be.

Eventually it took me to deciede that I would not continue in a marriage she didn't value enough to incovenience herself to recover it. I would try to get her to emote how she felt saying :


"How much do you love me ?"

"VERY much"

"but not enough to read a book or see an MC?"

"That nothing to do with how much I love you. Thats just not "me"".

"Can you see how *I* feel it is because you don't love me enough to do something you feel uncomfortable with ?"

"I s'pose so but....you know how I am. I don't do that stuff".

"Nor did I until I had to."

"well..thats your decision"

....

Eventually , in February, this conversation ended by me saying :

"I must place my needs as highly as yours,Squid. I must place what is RIGHT for our marriage over what either of us feels comfortable with.
You need to understand what happened in your affair and discover the reasons why you had it and how to avoid it. Also how to help me recover.

This is not going to " go away" because your way leaves undrawn poison in the wound in our marrige. baby I love you but I won't have a one-sided recovery.

I must let you know that this has become a personal boundary to me. I will not stay indefinitely in what I see as a one-sided marriage".

Squid was shocked, but made some efforts ENQ etc.Most importantly she asked me what I thought she should do. I exploained to her about my "three strands" of recovery concept and that she had contributed enormously to the PRACTiCAL strand, and some to the traumatic strand but as yet very little to the PERSONAL strand.

We discussed a lot and she started to open up. How her childhood experiences affected her and her views of entitlement and altrusism in parenthood. She started reading pop-psych books about how the child affects the woman, and also ENDLESS "bad childhood" biographies ( like Dave Pfelzers for example).

She's making steady progress in this. Its not the priority *I* would choose but I cannot deny that she is taking her personal recovery seriously now. Sh eeven talked about seeing a counsellor.

Unfortunately Jerry the only way Squid has stepped up her contribution has been when I have made it a condition of my staying in this marriage. I have not done so lightly. I would have divorced Squid if she did not step up eventually.

So I'm afraid I don't have any great wisdom for you. I hate having to progress like this in fits and starts ut that's how it has been for us.

Not to say life is bad. Far from it ! Squid has THROWN herslelf into the other strands of recovery. As a result I am pretty much OVER the EA part.

Have you read "love must be tough" by James Dobson ?


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Thanks for the great replie bOb, I do appreciate it.
It's been a long journey, hasn't it(LOL)?
I guess I should have been more insistant in my FWW's participation in all of this, but she seemed at the time, not to be able to handle it emotionally. Not being a counseller, I didn't want to somehow push her over the edge.
I, like you, wanted her to understand the why of her A. She's convinced herself it was the drinks she had and the anti-D meds she was on. Certainally strong facilitators, but not, IMHO the true and real reason.
I had her read a thread here a few weeks ago of a WW who was in a very similar sitch as her and she basically chastised me. Told me it made her ill, and was now in a terribly depressed mood. Most of the replies on that thread were about getting to the real reason of the A and not the alcohol or any other such "reasons". So, typically, she has not mentioned it, or brought it up in convo since.
This just seems to be how it goes. "Don't think about it and it won't hurt you anymore."
Have more thoughts about this but must go for now.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply,
All Blessings,
Jerry

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Jerry

Theres a huge difference between and excuse and a reason IMO.

Our spouses need to learn which is which in their own situations.

Squid is very fragile emotionally too.

We should speak more about this when you have time mate.

All blessings


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I feel for you both when you talk about your pain.
Like Shinethrough I do not see that much progress in my state.

DDay for me was April 2005.

My husband had been having an affair on and off for 3 and a half years. The affair had finished a few months before.

It was like a ton of bricks on my head, I had thought he was depressed and tried to support him, he was at times very unpleasant, I could feel that distance, but he denied he was having an affair, and I trusted him so much (stupidly, as he had cheated on me 3 times in the first 5 years: one-night stands sort of things when on holiday by himself, before we got married and had children).

Although he has apologized quite often and tried to explain, and has usually been supportive, I am not over this by any means.

I just do not understand how a man who says he loves you and always did, can sneak out of the house or take advantage of the fact that he works abroad 4 days a week to go and screw another woman!

How can one dare to come home after that, how does one face one's kids at the dinner table? How can one get into bed with one's wife after screwing another? I do not understand and I still haven't had a satisfying answer. I hurt and hurt and hurt and hurt and it's been like that since April 2005.

We have been in counselling but I felt he often tried to look for "reasons" why it happened: the job...What had his job got to do with it?
I could not do that to him!!!!!!!!!
He listens to me, he feels for me, he is affectionate and looks after me, and I am still in sheer ******! If it was not for the children, I don't know what I could do, I feel destroyed.
I cry when I think of you still depressed after 4 years, Shinethrough.

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You getting help Lorraine ?

Long term A's have a different prognosis than "flings" as I understand it.

Someone like Steve Harley might be able to help you work with the facts.

Also,I am NOT SLIGHTLY depressed after 2.5 years !!

Squid LOVES me and I LOVE HER. We cope with the consequences of her affair every day, yes, but the A is long cold in the ground now.

Because I reckon there's work left to do, doesn;t mean it hasn't been worth the effort.

Read THIS ( click here) to see another side to my recovery story !!

All blessings.


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Bob, What do you mean exactly by long term affairs have a different prognosis than flings? Do you mean for the BS, the WS, the marriage? My husband was out of it by the time I found out, he described the affair as a prison he did not know how to get out of and said the OW was manipulative and emotionally blackmailed him.
He really looks after me, but it keeps nagging me as soon as he goes back to work. And I spiral into depression. You see, I still do not understand how he could do that.
I do not see myself getting help with Steve Harley, I am French, live in France near the border, I am married to an Englishman, and he unfortunately has to work in Germany.
Good for you 2! It 's nice to see some people manage to get better.
Thanks!

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Hi Lorraine

Affairs tend to be emotion- and fantasy- driven things, that burn out through thir own intensity within 2 years.

As I understand it there ae different dynamics at play which keep affairs that last well beyond the " addiction" phase running and can require different processing.

Steve Harley is contactable by phone at a time to suit your timezone.

Idonot know if there isa pro-marriage counselling service in France, Lorraine.

Why not search this site for the acronym " LTA " or phrase " long term affair" and see what you find ? It may help you.

You live near the German border ? Alsace perhaps ?

Very beautiful, if so.


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From what my husband told me it had burnt out quite quickly, well within the 2 years, but after that it dragged on, on and off, meeting every 2 months or so. OW kept him going because she enjoyed the manipulation. He said he was angry with her and was trying to control the situation. She would phone her own husband while with mine, can you imagine the sick mind one needs for that? He said he wanted to break up, but she would contact him, make him feel guilty.
He feels that it was not a LTA. The length of it was due to his inability to be firm and get rid of someone very clever. I don't know of course.
When I said "Would you be tempted to see her again?", he said no he was relieved to be rid of her, that it would be like going back to prison, and that she could be a nasty person.
Yes we live in Alsace and it is a beautiful area.

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Dopff et Irion alsace reisling is one of Squid's favourite wines !

I see that your H's affair may not be considered to be an LTA.

What actions are you taking to recover from it, Lorraine ? Have you both read "surviving an affair " for example ? Is your H contributing to all you need from him to help recover from this ?


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To Bob, I don't know if I am taking any action apart from being miserable. I find it ******! He really does try to help me. But what throws me is that he might say one thing one day, 2 months later he might say something that contradicts what he said before. And I have got a good memory. So I still wonder non stop. And suffer.

To Shine, I think Bob is right when he says that your wife has to do a bit more. My husband tried as well to tell me it was the past, and I should get over it. Of course, we BS want to get over it, and probably all or most WS want their BS to "move on". It is up to you to demand her help, she put you in that mess! It has to go at OUR pace, don't you think?

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Hello b0b pure,

I have been following your story for some time and have appreciated your perspective on this very difficult subject. June 1/06 I discovered my wife was actively involved in a EA/PA for a year and half. While I have to give her 110% for her efforts in recovery thus far I still feel something is missing. I am intrigued with your concept of "three strands" of recovery and I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that. My W. has done a 180 turn around in the way she treats interacts and responds to me, yet I see little evidence of her dealing personally with the A. itself. She starts to read the books, of which I have purchased copiously, then never finishes them. Any efforts outside of the way she responds to me seems to come in fits and starts. I get the sense she wants to put the whole thing out of her mind. So far she has resisted counselling for logistical and pragmatic reasons. In fact I am detecting a rather pragmatic approach on her part to recovery in general.

I want our recovery to be the best it can be and I think that the "three strands" as you describe them could offer some guidelines and a helpful framework, at least in our situation.

Thanks

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Hi bob and welcolm Lorraine,
Sorry about not getting back sooner, but major Holiday here in the US, Thanksgiving Day, and lots of company and friends.
bOb, you're of course right, about my w"s lack of participation in this whole course of R in our M, but I have recognised this from the very start.

My W has had a lot of very nasty things occur in her life, not the least of which, was a rape when she was 17 years old, that resulted in a pregnancy, and ultimately the birth of a child which she gave up to adoption. I wasn't informed of this till we had been married for about 3 years. I offered to find and adopt the child, but she adamantly refused.
Thus, I feel there are definitely FOO issues at play here, to the extent, that I may never completely comprehend.

I guess I've come to the point in my life that simply states that I will endure what ever is left and try to make the best of a very bad sitch, as I have done in the past.

Lorraine, you seem to be very early in your M to have to suffer from the pain of infedelity. Have you couseled with anyone about this? My pain is no less than the pain you feel at this point, but in a couuple of months, we will have been married for 37 yaers. That's an awful lot of investment in each other. It's actually a lifetime!

Could I ask, how much investment do you have at this point, in your rather young M? You should IMVHO,shoulld not have to be facing this horrendous pain so early in your M..../.

Is there any way bOb or I could help you?

Thanks aginn bOb,
Look forward to more discussion if your up for it

All Blesings,
Jerry

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Thank you for your messages!

Shine, We have been married for 20 years, together for 30. I am 58 , he is 54.

My husband cheated on me 3 times in the first 5 years, while he was on holiday by himself, and I made a mistake of simply making a point that I did not want to live like that. I certainly did not make enough fuss, as I was worried about losing him (my first husband had left me, we were a bit too young).
I also attributed this to a lack of maturity as he is a bit younger than me.
He was the one who asked if we could have a family together. He was a great dad and I thought we were out of trouble as far as cheating was concerned. I gave him full trust again.
He has been very apologetic, very concerned about me.
This time it was a proper affair so that was a huge blow!!!
I am still grieving a lot. This weekend he has told me that he felt more able to talk with me, perhaps we'll make progress?

In your case Shine, I think that your wife has a lot of problems that complicate your situation, and that have nothing to do with you as a person.
It sounds as if she might have buried a lot of the hurt that she felt when she was raped, and giving up her baby for adoption might also have left a huge feeling of guilt that she does not feel she can cope with, and that she may have buried too.
How can she also face the hurt that she has inflicted on you, the one man who was good to her?
If she faces that, the rest of it might come back up, and that might be what she senses, so she wants the "box" closed. Of course that attitude prevents you from healing.

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Hi lorraine555,
I'm sorry for messing up the particulars in your sitch, but that's why I don't post all that often. I have a prepencity for mixing up pertinent facts. Oh well, that's me

So if I have this right, this last A was no. 4?
Is that correct?

If so, I do feel sorry for you're having to endure this oncce again. This seems cruel and unusal to say the least.

I can only say that in the book by David Carder,"Torn Asunder", he has stated that he counselled people who had been raped and molested as children, and then faced the pain of infedility, and all said without a doubt, that the unfaithfulness was the worst pain they had ever had to face. I say this to point out just how extremely painful all of this to a BS. It truly is a pain beyond belief, and usually results in some form of PTSD immediatley after.
Dr. Shirlee Glass enfornces this in her book "Not Just Ftiends."

If I could offer something IMVHO, it seems you never really dealt with those 3 A's that occured in the first 5 years of your M. Could this be true? I mentioned to bOb that there is a big difference between excusing and the very hard work of forgiving. You even "offered" that excuse as him being "immature" at the time. Do you see that as an excuse? There is no excuse for adultry. There is only forgiveness and a total resolve to defend yourself from your own weaknesses. But, if there is no admission of the weakness, then one remains vunerable. Hope this makes some kind of sence.

Thanks for jumping in here. As bob has asked, are you getting help? The whole point of my post was to say, you can't do by yourself. Reach out and get help wherever you can. Don't be shy about this and expect things will just take care of themselves. Too many of us BS's have done just that. That's why I'm still here after 4+ years

I wish you the best in your recovery, and, if I could offer anything useful, I certainly shall try

All Blessings,
Jerry

PS: You're right about my FWW having issues, that I really can't begin to comprehend. She has boxed out all things unplesant in her life and she is very good at it.

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The first 3 were not exactly affairs, it was in each case one night of sex and nothing else afterwards, and that was 25 years ago, i really had forgiven I think, it only bugs me now because of the recent affair where he WAS involved, "in love" and so on.

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Hi lorraine555,
Thanmks for the reply. I noticed something I can only say, as I see it, as a big reg flag.
Quote:

The first 3 were not exactly affairs, it was in each case one night of sex and nothing else afterwards,


,

I'm sorry to say that that is not the case,IMHO.
A ONS is simply another form of A, but, nontheless, is still an A. A's are classified, as LTA, Short T A, and ONS's. Each are truly A's but of a different clasification. This is well documented by many differednt experts in the field.

Quote:

i really had forgiven I think, it only bugs me now because of the recent affair where he WAS involved, "in love" and so on.



I'm glad you have forgiven, although, the term indicates past tense, as if it were also forgotten. But now, 25 years later, you bring it up once again, so it really has not been forgotten. This is exactly as it should be. Forgiveness is a verb and something I find I must do every day. There is no way such a horrendous hurt will ever be forgotten. God does not require us to forget, but simply to forgive, seventy times seven. I reached that number fairly quickly and continue to do so constantly. The result of a sin that will always have consequences.
My FWW, while in MC, stated very clearly to C that "I did not have and A." Do you see the denial there? When she looked at me, I simply stated, "It's kinda odd that you say that while I sit here with and STD I will have for the rest of my life as a result of the A you did not have."

If A's are not dealt with, they will somehow find a way to rear their ugly head again. In a different place and time, perhaps, but the real problem does not to seem to go away until there is a real epihany, or light bulb moment, in the
life of the offender.

Thus, I am very dissalusioned(sp) in my FWW. I don't know if she gets it or not. But she will not do the work to figure it out for the both of us.

Very frustrating!

All Blessings,
Jerry

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I get your point about ONS, what I meant by "not an affair" is that there was no emotional involvement.
As I said I had forgiven, and even forgotten which I should not have done. The reason why it is very much in my mind and it makes things even worse for me is that I wonder if he is just going to do it again.

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Its bizarre, Lorraine : I would have not considered EA's to be "affairs" but ONS to be devastating. I know others who are destroyed by EAs. People think differently don't they ?


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I was very upset and worried about the 3 ONS (which happened in the first 5 years we were together, at times when he was away by himself).
But for me affairs were to do with a length of time (just a question of words, not a question of how I feel about it).

For me the emotional involvement of the more recent affair and the length of time (over a period of 3 years, even if as I explained it seemed to have dragged on and the "meetings" were very infrequent ) make it much more unbearable.
So now I suffer from the four, 3 ONS plus long affair.
I made the mistake of not putting up boundaries properly for the ONS, because I was worried about losing him.

My pain has been excruciating and I just hope my husband has finally realised that he cannot do that anymore!!!!!!!!!! He seems to get it, he has been very apologetic, he cried at my pain, he has been very supportive. So I wonder if I can have a tiny little bit of hope?

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