Hello again everybody,

I'm in bad shape tonight. WW and I had been making some progress. We have been talking much more openly and honestly with each other, which I took as a very positive thing. I'm so sick of lies. I also did the right thing and called off the purchase of our larger home so that we can focus on our M first.

Well, we went out to a shopping mall as a family today. While the kids played in one of the kid stores, WW and I talked about the rest of my questions about the A. I feel like I now have the complete picture, including some details that yes, were painful. But I felt good that we were at a point where we could talk, and that she would feel safe in being honest with me.

Well, because I appreciated her honesty, and because I am sincere in my belief that I need to fundamentally change my own behavior for our M to be ever be not just recovered, but better than it ever was before, I decided to tell her something I've been holding on to for years, especially since it's a fundamental symbol of our M.

So here goes. One of my failures was in always avoiding issues. I was a non-confrontational person to the extreme. My WW on the other hand can have a raging temper. There was at least one night years ago where I didn't sleep most of the night because she had threatened to physically harm me. There were many incidents of verbal abuse and angry outbursts. Instead of standing up for myself, I would just absorb these incidents. Whenever I could, I chose not to face that temper when in retrospect I realize of course I should have. Every time I avoided or absorbed an issue, it was unfair to my W because she was then unaware of the damage it was causing to our relationship.

So here's what happened. I confessed to my WW that in the first year of our M, that when I went to the gym, I would take off my ring, at first to avoid scratching it on the bar, but also that there was a part of me that enjoyed feeling like I was "out there". What's worse, the ring fell out of my pocket one time, and I didn't realize it until later and was never able to find it. I ended up buying my own replacement ring instead of telling her the truth.

I told her this because I need her to know that I would never do anything like that again, and the very fact that I'm telling her now is my committment to her to be honest with her going forward. I also told her that when we do rebuild our M, I need it to be with a ring that she puts on my finger herself.

I realized the risk, and recognized that when she's still in withdrawal from OM that it wasn't the right time to tell her. But I couldn't picture 6 months of "Plan A" and then springing that on her. I want to be honest with her now. I am committed to her and I do love her, and I am losing the fear I've always carried with me.

Of course what happened is that WW feels that she is now vindicated and that I need to let her go so she can be "happy" with OM. She has taken off her ring and asked that I take off mine. I did, since I need her to be willing to put it back on me anyway. I am trying desparately to convince her that the fact that I told her should be the proof she needs that I am making the changes that she needs from me. Unfortunately, now she just feels that I never loved her, which is definitely not true, and I wish she would see how much I want to make this work with her, for us and for our children.

She says she will give it 2 weeks, and then she wants me to move out and start to pursue a D.

Please wish me luck that we can turn this around.

TomFool

Don't move out. Let her move.

Tom - When I replied before about you putting up with her raging, I didn't realize that this has been happening all your marriage. You need to STOP tolerating it. It is bad for you and for the children. I suggest you walk out the door when she does it again.

You just gave her ammunition to use against you at a time when you are under fire. She was going to leave anyway. Nothing has changed here, except that you handed her some new ammunition to use against you and justify her affair. Put your ring back on, tell her you love her and aren't interested in divorce. This is just another ploy in her arsenal.

And secondly, radical honesty is something to be utilized while in recovery, not when you are under fire. As you can see, it has not helped you in the least.

Simple manipulation

Give me a break

Sure the timing wasn't right but you did a good thing and honesty is never a mistake.

She's just using your disclosure as "the ultimate justification"...which it isn't one at all. Don't buy it.

2 weeks...ya' right. IF she wants to leave, she can. You don't go anywhere. She had an adulterous relationship and if she wishes to pursue it further she can have at it...but on her own.

You stay in the house...You stay in YOUR bed...

You can bet she'll be contacting OM shortly to tell him HOW AWFUL you were and why there is no need for them to TRY reconciliation.

There is always "the final straw". Your inappropriate but not sinful behavior over 4 years ago does not a final straw make.

Good luck...you did OK. Again, HER ADULTERY IS NOT YOUR FAULT.

Mr. Wondering

Like Melody said: The timing wasn't right...be careful.

FYI, TomFool has brought his wayward wife to the forum so be aware of this when you post to him.

You are all really lifesavers, literally. I can't imagine how many people come to these boards in despair, and find the support and community they need here.

I'll never know if I did the right thing tonight or not. All I know is that I definitely had to tell her about the ring sometime if I want our M to be real, and not just going through the motions. I know the timing wasn't right, but I couldn't stand the thought of trying to "win her over" for months and then springing that on her. It may very well be though that radical honesty has to wait until a more appropriate time.

I feel that I need to prepare myself now for what may happen if she insists on separation. I agree that as long as I am the one who does not want a D and wants to work on the M, then I should not be the one to move out. So if she moves out, yes it will be horrible for all of us, but at least it would make it very clear that it is HER decision to give up on the M.

However, what happens if she stays in the house, but either resumes the A or the scene at home becomes very detrimental for the kids? What if she does move out but she tells the kids it's daddy's fault that she has to leave?

I really just need to prepare myself in advance as to how to best protect my children as best I can, so I appreciate any advice.

TomFool

Tom,

My ex-wife also leaned heavy on the rage. I understand what you mean by just not rocking the boat.

The key thing with her, is that she grew up under a very abusive mother. She simply didn't have any other model of what a woman should be.

-AD

You did the right thing. You were honest. You came clean and told the truth. Yes, the timing was off, but in the end, you are in the right.

No matter what, there is no justification for an affair. None.

This is TomFool's WW.

Let me explain couple of things:
TomFool is very passive-aggressive and non-confrontational to the point of driving me or anyone insane. This is how stupid he is: everytime we try to make plans to go eat or out somewhere, he can't decide and always says, "I don't know or I don't care." It took me a very long time to figure out that he was just afraid to tell me. Almost 2 years into the relationship he freaked out accusing me of never doing anything he wants. My fault was to believe him - he said he didn't know or doesn't care - so I would believe him and make my suggestion. I never knew of the amount of hostility and resentment he kept tallies of for every stupid little thing he imagined that he had to give into.

You see he is a liar in many ways because every time he gave into me (because I never knew when and why he was giving in) he lied and lead me to believe that all was ok.

You folks have no idea how many times I've had to have talks with him about him needing to basically use his words and have courage enough to tell me what he thinks and feels. You also have no idea how many times I've told him that we've needed couseling - wayyyy before A started. You also have no idea how he explained to his parents that I'm not happy because I have an inferiority complex and feels that I am undeserving of his love. You have no idea that with 2 children he would never get up at night to care for the children. You have no idea how many times I've complained to him that I feel that I am doing 90% of the care giving for the children. You have no idea how he sulks and broods about every little thing requiring that I be his god damn mother and make him feel better. You have no idea how when I gave birth to my second child I was devoted to him enough to let him go home to sleep even though I was the one on the table having had just pushed the baby out for 10 hours. You also have no idea how he came back 12 hours later and asked if I slept any and my answer was no (because we were told that there was no nursury and that we'd have to take care of the baby) and yet how he still announced that he was going to go back home after the 1 hour visit. You also have no idea how he went out got drunk, arrested, and came home the next day at 2:30 pm with attitude and refused to call me or answer any of my calls. You have no idea how I didn't sleep all night praying to god to not take my husband away from me and my children because I could not fathom how uncaring and immature he is. You have no idea the depth of his lack of devotion and care that he has demonstrated. You have no idea that his brother-in-law asked me and my child to leave one thanksgiving dinner and I had to go back to get my husband because he stayed and did and said nothing while the whole ugly scene was played out. You have no idea how I've told him over a 2.5 year period that we were in trouble and that he needs to give me something, to show me something by getting us counseling or changing and becoming a man. I've always accused him of not loving me enough and rightly so. His lack of devotion from the very start of our relationship cannot be explained in its entirety.

When he took the ring off because he liked "being out there" was when I was pregnant with our first child and we had just gotten married. You have no idea the amount of suffering I've suffered as a result of his lack of devotion from the very start. YES, YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT IT'S REFRESHING TO FINALLY KNOW THAT MY UNHAPPINESS WAS NOT IMAGINED BUT VERY, VERY REAL. AND IF YOU HAD TO LIVE WITH SOMEONE LIKE HIM YOU WOULD ALSO BE A RAGING LUNATIC ONCE IN AWHILE.

So now, he can't stomach the possibility that I might find happiness because it is unbelievable to him that someone that is so undeserving and clearly second-class to him might possibility not want him.

So if you folks want to continue feeding him is lies and twisted delusions, go right ahead. But sincerely, if you really want to help, please help him and advise him correctly to let me go and help me to convince him to pursue the most amicable divorce.

I do not love him and I am certain that I cannot love him ever again. Please help him to put our children first and not force me to go through an ugly divorce. Please do not allow him to punish our children.

Thank you.
TomFool's WW

welcome mrs. tom fool......

i can honestly say i know exactly what you are talking about. my hubby is the king of conflict avoiders...he is legendary. i have been through all that and then some. mine even went as far as to send me for a d&c alone after having a miscarriage cause he didnt realize it was a big deal. the real reason was he didnt want to deal with it or take off work. i could tell you horror stories that would curl your toes. ive lived this life for almost 15 yrs. the final kicker was that HE had an affair on me. so believe me ive been there done that and got even shat on more than you.

what you are saying is horrible if true.(i dont know either of you) yet none of it is a reason to have an affair. what you did was wrong. if it was so bad then you should have gotten out first and then started your life over. not gotten a new life first......

why did you choose to stay and have an affair and not leave him first? why did YOU make the choices YOU made?

Mrs Tom Fool - I couldn't even read your whole, ranting post but certainly got the message that you are an entitled and selfish woman. I hope you get what you want; Tom Fool will be better off in the end, however I doubt that will be true for your children.

No way

This is why you don't tell your spouse about this site. At least until both parties are committed to recovery.

MBers:
This is a couple that needs help. It doesn't benefit them to take sides or to exclude one of them. My husband is here too and this site has helped us both. It takes two to build a marriage, right?

Mrs TomFool:
Clearly you are angry, and have good reason! Your marriage is in trouble because you have so much resentment. Your list of grievances is valid, however it does not justify having an affair. Believe me, many people here have been in your shoes. We understand. Do you understand that this is a new beginning? TomFool wants to change. He wants to save your marriage. Like you, he does not want a divorce. There is so much hope here.

Mr TomFool:
You did the right thing. Honesty is best. Of course she is angry, but anger is not the end of the world. Allow her to feel everything- she will calm down in time and you two can begin again.

Patience...

Mrs. TomFool...

I hear you...I understand you...I was you...I myself am a FWW...So I get it...COMPLETELY...I hear your anger, your frustration and your pain...

ALL of the circumstances that you've laid out, certainly demonstrate lack of care in a marriage...All of those are reasons that your marriage was in trouble...None of those are reasons to cheat...NONE OF THEM...No doubt that TomFool is 50% responsible for the state of your marriage...He is not responsible for your CHOICE to have an affair though...That is all yours to own...There are many things that you could have done BESIDES having an affair...YOU personally could have gone to counseling to learn how to live with a P/A Conflict Avoider...You could have sought divorce...You could have drawn boundaries instead of crossing them...But instead you find yourself here...Again, I understand that very well...

What Tom has shown now, though I believe you are missing it, is that he is willing to do the work to become the best husband that he can be...He would not have sought out marriage builders and begun posting here if he wasn't...You know what that communicates to me? That he does love you very much...that, in fact, he cherishes you and wants very much to be given the opportunity to show you just how much...EVEN in the face of this very painful betrayal...There he still stands with his hand out to you...Fighting for your marriage and family is a very noble deed...It is heroic and someday, should you choose to do the only right thing here and stay with your family, you will be awed by him for that...I promise you...and I certainly didn't believe that when I was in your position...NO WAY...I thought that my past feelings of love for Mr. W would never return...That I would NEVER be physically attracted to him again...I doubted it very much-believed it impossible...But I chose to do the intelligent thing and listen to the professional opinion given in the MB books and the most amazing thing happened...I fell more in love with my husband than I EVER was...My early posts here certainly show all the doubt that I had...I am no different than you...I am not special in this...A recovered marriage is the BEST thing...It is AMAZING...Will you take the steps to regain your integrity and simply try??? Trying means reading all the information on this site and following it to the letter...Figuring what in you allowed you to cheat...If you work the plan, it will work for you...

It will NOT be better for your children to divorce...Go read up on what divorce does to children...It isn't pretty...Is that the legacy that you want to leave for your children??? That marriage isn't forever...that the vows are a LIE...that for better or for worse really means, for better and if not, then until someone better comes along? I don't think you do...What I think is that you truly wish to feel loved, honored and cherished...Your husband IS the man that can do that in a way that NO other man will ever be able to...Will you give him that chance? Will you give yourself that chance to become completely fulfilled? Will you give your children the best possible environment in which to grow up? I hope you will...You will NEVER regret it if you do, but you will regret it FOREVER if you don't...

I hope very much that you stick around here and talk to us...Let us help you get the marriage you have always dreamed of...I know that I would be more than willing to talk to you and listen to everything that you have to say...here and/or through email...my address is in my signature, please feel free to use it anytime...I truly do understand what you are saying...I want only the best for you and your family...Btw, welcome to Marriage Builders...

Warmest Regards,

Mrs. Wondering

I wonder if the two of you can afford a counseling session with the Harley's? It is expensive, but they can often get to the core problems immediately, much quicker than a regular counselor.

At least then you could avoid a long, drawn out, costly divorce.

To Mrs - I'm wondering why you wanted to buy the other house with this man?

As usual, you miss the point, SR. It takes two to recover a marriage, but as you can see, they are not in recovery. There is only ONE who wants the marriage because there is an ongoing affair. An ongoing affair warrants Plan A and Plan B, which is done alone. I would like to see you achieve that with both of them posting here. Good luck!

Mrs. Tomfool,

If what you say is true, then no, Tomfool has not been the husband he needs to be. I hear him saying that he understands that and wants to change. What's the harm in giving him a chance. If it works and he is able to become the husband he can be then he wins, you win and most of all your children win. If it doesn't then you are right back to getting a divorce anyway.

Wait, I know what the problem is, its that you decided to sleep with another man. See this is the danger in having an affair. Now you think this man is the man of your dreams. He's not. 1-3% of Affair marriages make it past 5 years. So if some many of these people were soul mates don't you think they would stay together. Being with the other man has warped your senses. Affairs are like an addiction. You are getting your fix from the other man, getting your needs met (the ones you say Tomfool has ignored). Trust me he's not perfect and if married himself is a sorry piece of crap for pursuing and participating with you and harming your children. Good people don't have affairs or at least they don't continue them.

You have a lot of resentment and some of it no doubt valid. But, if you didn't want to be married to Tomfool you get a divorce not have an affair. This is selfish, entitled and indulgent, not to mention immoral and a recipe for disaster for all involved.

Take your eyes off yourself, give you husband a chance to proved to you how much he loves you and wants to be the husband you want him to be. If it works then you will be so thankful and if not you are no worse off, nay you are better off for having gotten your dignity back by stopping to participate in affair, tell your children that you gave your marriage the best shot you could and feel good about moving on in life one way or the other. To do this you have to stop seeing, no contact whatsoever, with other man. Your Marriage stands no chance as long as you are blinded by the excitement (short term) of an affair.

Do what you will but I guarantee you that no amount of resentment, anger, or justification will be enough to look your children in the eyes some day as they get older and wonder why they have to travel to two homes over and over again. Nothing will justify you having become an adulteress. You can't blame Tomfool for this. You made this decision, no one held a gun to your head. Only you can get your dignity and self respect back whether your marriage makes it or not.

Well said...BRAVO hopeandpray!!!!!!!

Mrs. TomFool,
I understand your feelings in many ways. I've dealt with many of the issues you dealt with by being married to a man like your husband in many ways. The selfishness in allowing you to do everything is something I've endured in my M.

Mr. TomFool,
I understand your feelings in many ways. I often took whatever my H dished out. He was the loud, angry one. He was the one that did whatever he wanted and I learned to keep my mouth shut b/c verbalizing what I felt and thought didn't matter. If he wanted to do something and I disagreed he simply bullied me until he got his way.

None of what has been posted by either of you justifies an affair. If he took his ring off but never went beyond that, it's an incredibly hurtful thing but it doesn't justify anything. He did not have to be honest w/you but was. You would never have found out probably.

Marriage is hard. Divorce w/small kids is harder. One thing I've never really understood is how a person can cheat and leave their spouse to be with that other person and then have faith that the other person would never cheat on them. Also, how can the other person ever have faith or peace of mind in the R that the two cheaters have created.

Mr. Tomfool,
Don't leave your home. If your wife wants out and wants a D, let her be the one to proceed. If she wants out, let her be the one to leave. I made the mistake of leaving b/c I couldn't tolerate my H's actions anymore. Now, all my possessions other than clothes and a few minor things are in the house. I believe w/all my heart that I will go through literal h*ll to get my things when the process of D is started.

God bless you both.

You need to think about what you have and if you can work through the issues before you decide on D.

An old but very true saying is "The grass may be greener on the other side but it still needs mowing". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />