I'm new here, but not new to MB concepts. My wife is having an affair, and is about to escalate it from an EA to a PA. I've been running a Plan A on her for about 2 months. She is in complete denial.

Here's my problem/question: I've already caught, and attempted to put a stop to all this, twice. This will now be the third time she has done this. Once she takes the affair physical, I basically plan to file for divorce. In fact, I told her after catching her the second time, this is exactly what I would do. Honestly, I read posts on here, about WS who move out, are blatantly having an affair, file for divorce, and yet people still stay on "Plan A", I just don't get it. At some point, you have to be realistic. I don't know how they do it, though I do respect their dedication.

But really, my question/problem is, what's the point of Plan B? I mean, we started counseling with Jennifer last week... and she was great... but I told her, I was very concerned that it was about to turn into a PA, and today, my reconnaissance confirms my suspicions.

When I told Jennifer this, she said we might have to go to a Plan B... ok, I get that, understand the concept, etc, BUT...

Suppose Plan B... WORKS? Then what do I have? A spouse who returns to me, not out of love, but out of force and coercion?

And, more to the point... how do I know the WS can be trusted again? I mean, she already agreed to "no contact" with both me directly, as well as with Jennifer... and was back emailing the OM within literally 15 minutes of ending the counseling session.

So.... what in the world would make me think she would not just do it again? I.E., "hey WS, I caught you cheating, now it's physical, so here's Plan B, including no money." I'm the breadwinner, so THAT will get her attention right quick.

But... then what? What in the world would prevent her from coming back and just simply being more careful next time? If she doesn't love me, then... really, what is the point of continuing this?

I've been wrestling with this for several days, and I can only come to one conclusion: The only way I would be willing to do a Plan B, would either be in conjunction with a divorce settlement, and then, literally, starting over from scratch... or, less melodramatic, and slightly more realistic, a post-nuptial agreement that would spell out the settlement. That way, if, and presumably WHEN the WW is caught again continuing the affair, it's an easy legal transition at least to moving on.

Without such mechanisms in place, what would possibly motivate a fogged WS to TRULY break all contact? It seems like it would just make a lot more sense for them to pay lip service to the no-contact provisions to as to end the Plan B pressures, then be more careful. After all, they're fogged, so it's not like morality comes into play in their thought process. And then what? Plan B them again and again?

Without LEGAL constraints on their behavior... where does it end? And why would it?

The goal of Plan B is to protect you, not to force or coerce your wife into anything. See, usually affairs end within 2 years. If she refuses to end her affair and you remain in contact with her during the duration of her affair, you run the risk of falling out of love with her entirely. You also run the risk of a nervous breakdown or years of post traumatic stress disorder from being exposed to her abusive affair.

Plan B gives you time away from the affair, while it dies a natural death, but protects you and your marriage in case you both decide in the future to resume your marriage. It is also important in Plan B to completely seperate your finances and perhaps even get a legal seperation agreement. Under no circumstances should you finance her affair. You should only pay what you absolutely have to pay.

Plan B enables you to detach emotionally from the affair mess, which puts helps you use better judgement if you have to make tough decisions about divorce, etc.


Plan B does none of this. It does not force your W to return to you at all. It does the opposite. In Plan B, you state your boundaries, ie: end of affair, recommittment to the marriage, etc, and she is free to respect them or not if she wants you back in her life. If not, then she is free to move on.

Plan B can have the effect of pulling the WS off the fence, but there are no guarantees. This is because the BS usually meets 3-4 needs and the OP meets 1-2 needs [usually top needs]. When the BS is removed from the scene, the WS realizes this loss and begins to look to the OP to fill that gap. They usually can't or won't, which creates great conflict in the affair. Since the BS has removed himself, the WS often feels that she has made great sacrifices for the OP. Becasue of this, the expectations of the OP greatly increase because of the sacrifices the WS has made. This can cause resentment in the affair, which leads to lovebusting.

Anyway, the affair does not normally last long for many of these reasons.

When you go into Plan B, you would end contact with a letter that stipulates conditions that have to be met in order to reconcile. It is a love letter that gives a path back to the marriage. If the BS is still available, that is.

Here is an article about Plan B, that may help somewhat:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

esk,

You got a great answer from one of MB's best.Read it over several times so that you understand Plan B completely.

Best of luck

If you go into Plan B, she may very well make these kinds of noises and pretend to be committed to your marriage again. But you will be able to tell pretty quickly if she is sincere or not. You don't let her back unless and until you are absolutely assured her affair is done and contact is ended. She will have to PROVE it to you.

There are several things she will have to agree to in order to come back, and a WS who is not sincere will usually BALK at those conditions, revealing their true level of sincerity.

If she tries to come RIGHT BACK, you can be assured she is not done with her affair and is likely trying to get you back on the plantation.

It is really not as hard as you think, though, esk. We can usually tell pretty quickly who is sincere or not. You would also want her to go through counseling with Steve Harley as a condition of reconcilation.

thanks Cymanca <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

p.s. esk, you are perfectly within your rights to choose divorce right now and walk away. No one would fault you for this. But consider a few things:

a) this marriage may be perfectly salvagable. If you had a good marriage before, you can have a great marriage in the future.

b) divorce is often more difficult than recovery from an affair

c) your children very much need an in tact family - divorce will devastate them. Their lives will never be the same

You have nothing to lose at this point, esk, so you really risk nothing by going into Plan B. You have no great choices right now, but in my opinion, Plan B is probably better than divorce.

esk, did you expose the affair as we had previously discussed?

So, just for clarification, are you saying somewhere in this trail, that when the WS quickly attempts to reconcile, they aren't really sincere? My WH has been in his affair for 2 1/2 years. I also read that most last 2 years and die, there's just resurged with a weekend away. Is there really any reason for me to hope given the stats?

CAD,

False recovery is often based when the WS or BS is NOT ready. It could be due to selfish reasons on the part of either side. In most cases the WS is the selfish one and sometimes in cahoots with the OP in an attempt to get the BS to back down on D proceedings until it is covenient for the WS.

As for the 2 year mark, it is a general estimate. Don't gauge the A in your case by it. My H's final A lasted 3 painfully long years. He taught us how to live without him and move forward without him.

This meant that in our recovery he was the one who had to prove he was worthy to be let into our family. He was the one who lost the privilege of being a valued and loved family memeber. He still had the financial responsibilities but he lost his right as a valued member. Remember he did teach us (by his WS ways) that we could and did live without him as a valued family member.

I played this thought them and now to him as a reminder of what life w/b like if he screwed up again, in big and little ways. Of course he does not like t/b reminded of his A days but sometimes it is necessary.

As brought out by Mel, plan B is initiated by you and for you to protect you and your family ONCE you are done with your plan A personal improvements.

If your W is still a WS after you are done with plan A, then you have the option for plan B or plan D. It is reocommeded you don't enter those plans until your mind and heart are in sync. Don't make life changing decisions while in an emotional state. That is where the beauty of plan B comes in.

A BS may be done with plan A but they are not ready t/d the D yet. Threats t/d plans B or D will fall on deaf ears beacuse the WS likes threats. No threats, just do what you need t/d without warning. Implementing plans B or D are NOT negogitable with a WS. You do it when YOU are ready. Agreement on separation or divorce proceedings will require some negogiation but that's later.

You may find the WS will want you t/d the D and when you do, you may get accused of NOT wanting the M. This may confuse you but recognize it as a confused attempt of your real spouse trying to get out of the clutches of the WS, yet struggling internally with the WS. You will see instant switches of her personality and this may freak you out. Be prepared for it. That is why it is vital you are on stable ground with your mind and heart in sync.

When I started the D process, it freaked out the WS and even the OW thought I was playing games. She warned him in an e-mail to 'watch out for L, she's up to something'. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> 2 funny!! I told the WS he'd better watch. I refused to let the OW or WS dictate my life anymore.

Hope this helps!!!

L.

Usually not. Initial attempts are usually from discomfort from Plan B and not a sincere desire to end the affair and recommit to the marriage.


I wouldn't look to stats for hope, but to the specifics of your situation.

No, I did not.

Reasons:

To recall from the previous thread, I had very real legal reasons why I could not do this. We are in the midst of a relocation to another state; WW had to stay behind for some "career" stuff (which is true, but of course, the affair is the real reason). So... just this past week, I moved, with our three children, to the house from which I write this, and WW went back to an apartment, and this all happened with her CONSENT.

This would have been very difficult, if not impossible, to accomplish if I had exposed before the move. It is highly unlikely she would have agreed to it. I don't just have a marriage to try to save, I also have a legal position to protect, in case it (most likely) doesn't work out.

Add to that, WW is in TOTAL denial. I mean, yeah, there's fog, and then there's FOG. Our children are ages 8, 6, and 5. Yesterday, she got on a plane, and walked away from me, and them, to return home. Today, literally the day after she gets back, she is meeting with her lover. Yesterday, her daughter was crying to her how much she is going to miss her, and wishes she would not go. Today, she is going to run naked into another man's arms. Most people don't literally abandon their children in another state just to do something like this.

I have already caught her TWICE in the EA; typical denials, "were' just friends, it's just flirting", you all know the drill. Plus, she's been painting me as an abusive control-freak to all of her friends (I've had angry outbursts and disrespectful judgement, for sure, which have now completely stopped for several months, but she is setting me up).

So, if I expose before this, then all of her friends just go, "see, I KNEW he hadn't changed, he's just trying to control you", and then, Plan A over, marriage over. WW walks out with her head held high, and the court's support. Plus, I researched, and most courts don't recognize the concept of an EA.

Finally, I can't find anywhere in MB literature, either in the articles, or in SAA, where "exposure" is advocated as it is on this board. Radical honesty, yes, but I haven't seen it (exposure) actually written about by the Harleys.

We are supposed to have another counseling session with Jennifer tomorrow night; I told her I was very concerned that it would go from an EA to a PA after she returned home; I just had no idea it would be so soon.

When I expressed this, Jennifer mentioned that we may have to go to a Plan B if that happens, since I had let her know that I will not be able, personally, to keep doing a Plan A if she goes through with it. Jennifer did NOT mention anything about exposure either before or after this, in spite of the fact that she knew (was able to tell within 15 minutes of talking to WW) exactly what was going on.

She also told me that if it did go physical, not to do anything until talking to her first. I promised her I wouldn't, and so I won't. I will report back on the results of the session, and her recommendations.

esk, exposure is a tried and true Marriage Builders principle that comes from the Harleys. The forum members did not just make this all up. Exposure is simply the most potent weapon that you have in your arsenal right now and I thought you understood this. We have seen affairs end THAT DAY. To not expose this affair is to enable the affair at the expense of your marriage.

Your W is no different from any other WS we see here every day. Her friends are no different from any other "friends" we see here. So what if they say you are "controlling?" That does not undermine the goal of exposure. Your marriage stands a much greater chance of ending because of an affair, than it does from exposure. It can survive the temporary anger from exposure, it can't survive an affair.

And of course Jennifer did not mention exposure, because your W agreed on the phone to end the affair. The point of exposure is to end the affair so there is no need if the WS ends the affair.

There is nothing anyone here can do for you if you won't use this weapon, esk. I wish you the best.

Which leads me right back to the original question... THEN what have I got? A wife who is with me by FORCE, rather than by choice? Not what I want out of life. I only want to be with a woman, who chooses to be with me.

What can I say, except that I know my wife? If I expose before it goes physical, she has ground to deny it. She can always say it was just a fantasy or whatever, and since she has been lying to her friends the same way, they'll back her up on it.

But once I have evidence of the physical affair, well, she could still deny it of course, but then, no one else on earth will believe her, including her friends who she currently values more than me (she once told me, recently, that she would not sacrifice her friends for her marriage). And, more importantly, a custody court judge.

If I expose a PA, well, her friends may still support her, although I doubt it after she lied to all of THEM the same way, by saying it was just a fantasy, and she would never actually go through with it. They will feel betrayed at that point, and she won't have any other place to run for justification for her behavior, as she is currently getting from them.

I hope I'm not violating some confidentiality here, but Jennifer didn't believe that for five seconds. Jennifer very well knew contact was going to continue, and she told me so. She said, "I don't believe her reality, I believe yours". I'm not sure it could have been more clear.

This has such a ring of finality to it... I'm not saying I'm not going to do it, just not until talking with my marriage counselor, and my lawyer first. That's all I'm saying (regarding exposure per se).

esk, I answered your questions. Take what you want and leave the rest. If you are only taking advice from your lawyer and your MC, then there is no need to post to you here. Take care, friend.

Recall, my original question was regarding Plan B, not exposure. And yes, you did answer my questions about that, thank you. You then asked me a question, in turn, about exposure, and I answered that in kind.

Please understand, when I disagree with a concept or advice on a message board, it doesn't mean I'm not going to change my mind... it means I want to hear arguments to the contrary.

I know a lot of people on the Internet are calcified in their opinions of things, I am not like that. I use a variety of different message boards, for input on different things, I always consider all the responses, as I know they take time and thought to write out, then I make the best decision I can, with the information I have. No different here.

I'm really not offended if a bunch of people tell me what I am doing is wrong.. in fact, usually, if everyone is telling you the same thing, it means it's time to listen. So that's all I'm doing, ATM. I promise, I'm not just hearing... but listening. Even if I'm not doing exactly what people say to do.

I guess my point is, I value your input, whether it looks like it or not.

I have always said " The deepest fog is BS fog"

I don't have a clue how plan B is about force..


Plan B is a loud and clear statement to a WS

choose to do whatever you want to ..

I am no longer part of your equasion at all...
I am no longer interested in any of your choices....

there is NO force
no co-ersion...
there is a WS left to make all decisions and choices alone...

without insight, rebuttal, or input from the BS..

there is anything BUT force or co-ersion...

it in fact says..

don't worry I the BS will not call contact or see you...
I will have NO interest in what you do or don't do

I will no longer be part of your life or triangle


there is no force in plan B..
there is freedom...
and if and when a WS faces their actions and demons on their own with no ability to blame or shift anything on to the WS...
they often begin to see themselves and their choices in a whole new light...

sometimes...

plan B is a solitary act of love..
then silence...

where is the force...

ARK

Esk,

Did you read my post on plan B? Also since you are working with Jennifer, she can guide you well with a stable plan. Either way, your mind and heart must be in sync so you w/b strong when either plan B or D is implemented.

Have you identified your personal boundaries? Secured your finances and created your personal support group? Get IC for your children as needed.

Check out child custody laws in your area. You are new there and may need to establish residency 1st. If so, then work on it but make sure you check things out before the WS tries to take your children from you.

The question is what r u doing to get prepared?

L.

Ark...

I guess, because in my situation, I am the breadwinner, and always have been, by a long shot. This isn't because I am more capable than my wife, just more ambitious. That's something I've always told her in our marriage, she certainly has the ability to make a lot of money, just not the desire. She has been very content to lean back and let me do most of the heavy lifting. In MB terminology, I am very well meeting the need for Financial Support.

Add to that, she has already given notice on her job, and her apartment, with the intention of moving up here in January, after her career stuff is finished.

She's also very bad with money management, so much so she had to file for Ch.7 BK last year. Fortunately, our credit and checking have always been separate, so my credit was still intact enough to buy a house. But, because of this, (her poor money management habits), we have mutually agreed it is best that the primary savings be exclusive only to my own accounts, and she does not have (direct) access. Of course, to get "access", pretty much all she has ever needed to do is hand me the checkbook, within reason.

So, add it all together, and you've got a woman isolated in another state, without her husband and children, the clock running out on her job (they've already hired her replacement) and her apartment (she's already given notice), combined with the fact that she's got no savings or credit to speak of, or really any financial wealth beyond her next paycheck.

So, really, if you add it all together, if I do a full Plan B including cutting off financial support, she doesn't really have any choice but to come back into the fold.

So, that's all I meant by "coercive". No, you're right, the concept isn't, but in my situation, it is very strong medicine to be sure.

Still, that doesn't invalidate any of your points. You are 100% correct in your post, and I agree completely. *I* am not the one having this affair... *I* am not the one making this choice. I get that. The affair is the bad choice... Plan B is merely the bad consequence arising from it.

It's not that I "feel bad" for her, cutting her off financially and emotionally. It's more so that, if/when she returns, I want it to be for ME, not my money. That's part of what prompted my original question... in Melody's reply, she said that the WS has to PROVE it to you, that it's really over... but how? What are some tactics/techniques, that can PROVE that my wife has ended her affair, and is with me, for ME?

Esk..

no one would here would ever want you take back a WS because of default..

it's all her choice....
always has been always will be



so what is your plan
to continue to support financialy the engabling of her affair...

are you co-dependant...(oh I how abhor the labels we society adore)

are you an enabler....

your wife has the ability to make money
your wife has the ability to be financial sound

your wife chooses not to over and over and over again...

are you tethered to her forever because of that....

why would you take back a financially strapped WS..
I wouldn't....

you create a plan B that fits you...

proof an affair has ended..

new or no cell phone with you having access to it at all times

access to all computer passwords..keyloggers etc

a person willing to counsel with harleys who gets what havic she wrought and seeks to never ever be capable of such a thing again...

those are the signs....

ark

WHOA... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Hold on there JUST a second... I think you just touched on something HUGELY important that maybe I was missing....

... are you saying....

... that she be required to be indpendently financially solvent... BEFORE I take her back....

... as a way of "proof" that it's not just about the money?

If so... THAT IS SO F'ING BRILLIANT. Seriously. Definitely a question I am going to pose to Jennifer tomorrow night.

I would *never* have thought of that on my own. THIS is why I post to the message boards, right here. For perspectives I would never have considered.

But before I get carried away (too late, lol), IS that what you were saying here? Or did you mean it different? Or can anyone else elaborate on this part? Is this a standard Plan B thing?