I haven't posted in a while, I was actually hoping to come back with a great recovered marriage story, but I guess I'm not there yet. Married to FWH for 9 years, 2 kids. D-Day was February 2006 for MOW, with NC since March 2006.

Sorry if this is going to be long, but I need real help in figuring out what happened. I don't want to leave something out that might help.

Things were finally going so good. He was committed, doing family stuff, and we just seemed on the right path to happiness. The last couple of weeks I realized that I have stopped worrying when he goes to work. I feel the trust coming back.

Monday night, he told me a story about some internet chat he had. A woman seemed to be pretending to make him her boyfriend to make another man jealous. That concerned me. This woman does a lot of relationship talk with H. He knows that can concern me. He got really angry with me. I tried to expain my feelings, and that I am fearful, because he had an affair. He walked out the door. Came back and wouldn't speak to me the rest of the night.

Yesterday he was just hostile to me. I tried to write him nice email that this was just a bump in the road, and we are ok.

He said he doesn't beleive anything I say, doesn't trust me. That he never should have shared anything with me, and he never would again. That is is tired of having to worry about when I am quiet, when I sigh, what I am doing, etc.
I had no idea he was so concerned with my every move.

Told me to do whatever I needed to do to be done with all this. And then let him know. Just kept getting angrier. And said that he just can't keep doing this for another year (recovering the marriage).

So I guess I made a huge mistake. When he walked out Monday I was mad, and went online and snapped at the woman and her boyfriend to leave my husband out of it. I felt bad. And I knew H would be really angry, because she would probably not talk to him again. So I mailed her and told her I was sorry, but that the situation had just made me uncomfortable.

I told H when he cam home, and he hit the ceiling. Said I crossed a boundry, and got into a "relationship" that was his, not mine. He has been telling me that these online conversations are just casual, certainly not "relationships." Then he brought up that I crossed his boundries when I exposed the affair.

So I asked him if he wanted to divorce over online games. I am stupid. The whole idea seemed crazy to me. I didn't mean it as a real question. But he said I should have chosen my words more carefully.

He yelled at me as I backed away. He is done with me, wants to hit me when he looks at me, can't stand me, will never give me any money or take care of me, doesn't care where I live, and that I can take the kids out of state. He no longer cares where I go or what I do. That I am to pack up and leave his house by the weekend. We are supposed to take our children to Disneyworld next week. He says I can go without him.

Our children saw this. Then he told them he was leaving (he had a meeting), and that Mommy and Daddy can't be together because we can't get along. (??? I can't remember when our last fight was- and certainly not in front of the kids)

I sat in our living room next to the Christmas tree and watched our little girls sob, and say that they are the only ones who don't have a Daddy. I had to bring them back in the house after they ran out after him and clung to his legs crying.

I left him alone when he came home last night. He was on the computer for hours. It nearly killed me.

This morning, he was chatting with me about his meeting, and ended with "did you pack your stuff." He said he told me months ago that our entire relationship was a house of cards that was going to come down. And it did, and it is my fault. That he can't trust anything I say, my actions are lies. That we are done.

And he told me that he has changed passwords on all his accounts, and I can't have anything that is his. He has cleared the computer history. He knows how this will hurt me, and it is. I don't know what to do tonight. How can I sit in this house while he is on that computer. And he wants to punish and hurt me right now. I don't know how far he will take it.

Maybe some of this is my fault. He hates is when I bring up the affair. And I do try not to. I am really working hard on healing. But this is the month the affair started, and it has been hard. And my Grandmother just died suddenly. So I had a hard time Sunday night. I couldn't sleep, because the thought popped in ny head that the man next to me might still be in love with someone else.

So I asked him Monday morning. He said he loves me, and that he doesn't love her anymore. And he called to check on me a couple of times. So I was really happy Monday. And today, I don't know if my chilren will even be in their home for Christmas.

I told him I don't want to do anything in anger, and asked it we can cool off for a couple of days. He said yes, but when I asked him if we can just put all decisions off until after Christmas, he said no. I have never seen him like this. I really think this is the end. I may have to let it be. I don't know what to do.

Things were so good finally. Is this guilt? He never forgives, not me, and I am sure not himself either.

He is making his house of cards fall, and I don't know why. It hurts so much, I don't know how to get through the day. And I am scared of anger from both of us. He is furious with me for crossing his boundries. That seems ironic to me, since I consider all the women he allows into our lives to be crossing mine. And all my boundry crossing has just been a reaction to that. (And yes, I know I should't react. And I sure should not have talked with that stupid woman.)

I am ready for Plan B, but will stay in A for now.

Please, is there anything normal about this? MC says this may be ok, because he is getting anger out, instead of holding it in. He has told me we are done before. But never like this. Never that he wouldn't even take care of me anymore. I'm rambling now. Some advice please!

bump

Are your children his natural children?

What has he put into the recovery so far?

Do you have a pre-marital agreement and is the house his non-marital asset?

Do NOT leave right now. Put that idea out of your head completely. He can leave if he wants, as you can not make him stay.

From what you are quoting him he's demonstrating passive aggressive traits. Look that up on the internet and educate yourself on how you can affect your relationship with him by your actions.

I don’t advocate violence by any means but I have to tell you that when my W pitched my laptop into it’s dying breath, literally, it was a big eye opener for me about how my addictions were affecting her emotional outlook on things.

Reread all the stuff that Dr. Harley says about secret relationships and acting like your S was watching you with a camera and all. This is for your understanding about his actions btw.

Uh, yes, is the short answer.

If you two have NOT been working on the relationship, really working, then he was bound to blow up like this; he stills harbors much guilt for his A, and [email]D@MN[/email] you for bringing that up, as it was under the rug where it belongs. Recovery is not avoiding each other and walking on eggshells to keep from disturbing the peace. If he asks if you've packed, tell him you have no intention of going anywhere, or any intention of discussing divorce, as that is not what you want. Do not incite him. Just state your peace and walk away.

As far as I am concerned, as a BW, my husband's boundaries can be the same as mine; basically 'do no harm'. If he is having intimate conversations online, or however, and this is YOUR boundary, you must enforce it. Your words obviously hold a lot of power, otherwise, he would not have blown up so! Whoa, he's totally bunged. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Don't go rushin' into Plan B without dealing with this situation first. Surely, contact a lawyer and check out your rights, but DO NOT leave under these conditions. He can leave if he would like to; you STAY in that house.

Also, if you feel physically or emotionally THREATENED, call the police and make a report. He has no right to intimidate you in that way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Don't believe his CRAP; it is HIS, not yours. You stated how his online R's make you feel, and that is HONESTY. Don't fall for his babble.

Hang in there. DO NOT LEAVE! Also, he may be falling into an EA; it's easy to do, especially online or on the phone or IM. Don't you lay down for him right now! Protect yourself and your family.

Sounds like he developed an EA. You need to talk about this with the Harley's.

- Jim

Hi WTR, sorry you are going thru this. I'm no veteran & no expert, I'm also in recovery and discovering issues of my own that are having an effect on our M & I need to resolve.

I've no real advice for you other than what's been offered, but as I was reading your post I couldn't help but feel how silly he's being. Sounds like he hasn't been an open book, like he's not respecting your boundaries, and like all his accusations/threats are babble. IMO, he's hiding something. He shouldn't be online, and you shouldn't be apologizing for interrupting. You are working to protect your marriage, and he got mad when you did what you felt necessary to do so (talking to that woman). She's got no place in your M so you did nothing wrong in letting her know this! Him getting mad at you is quite similar to being angry when first exposing an A, no?

Best of luck to you, and hopefully somebody more qualified will come on & offer you some real advice. I don't think you should be too terrified or sorry though. You didn't do anything wrong!

Thanks for your quick replies. I can always count on these boards for help.

No, he has not contributed to recovery completely. It has been more of a "sweep it under the rug." Things have been so good the last couple of weeks, I have tried to push for a little more "true" recovery. Maybe that is part of the problem???

I believe he is passive-agressive. I have been reading that thread in recovery, but still had a hard time dealing with it.

And our children are his, and he is devoted to them. For him to pull them crying off his legs shocks me. Or that he said he would let me take them out of state. I am scared for him. He is so angry and hurt.

I know I don't have to leave the house. I wonder if he knows that too. I have no idea if he will leave if I don't. He wants to punish me. We have a beautiful home. He wants me to lose it. I don't believe he will hurt me physically. He never has in 10 years. But I have never seen him like this either.....

He won't listen to anything I say right now. I guess I need to read the posts on "being still" and the "lighthouse" again.

And I don't know about an EA. I would have said no. I have seen a lot of his chat over his shoulder. But I haven't seen everything. He sure is angry that I talked to her.

This is going to be a really long day........

So you are/have been OK with the online chatting? This is/has been acceptable to you?

Julie,

I wouldn't say I have been completely ok with it. It has really been the only problem we are dealing with.

He likes to play games and chat. The chat that is in the room with 50 other people, game realted, or just fun stuff, is ok. He lets me read the chat anytime I want. None of these people know anything about him other than his game name. Very casual. Sometimes I play and chat in the same room as well.

The problem comes, that he does not see red flags when I do. This woman he chats with, tells him things like, her husband has had two affairs, she wants revenge, her life story, and she invites him into private chat to do this. That is when I get nervous.

He gets angry, because he says it is nothing, and that he will never let another person in our relationship again. I get angry, because he already has, and I want that door slammed shut with no cracks.

In my perfect world, there would be no chat. I have really been trying to POJA it by accepting the more casual stuff.

But right now, I think I would just like to throw his computer right out the window!

I see. Thanks for clarifying. Again, I'm not really qualified to say much else or really help but was hoping you'd share more on your thoughts re: the chat. Perhaps it helped you, to put your own feelings on the subject into perspective? It sounds like in the situation you described, this woman is looking for EA or revenge against her H - she is being inappropriate. It seems like the simple solution for your H would be to say "nope, gotta log off now" but I can't even begin to understand how they think. Perhaps he's felt he could offer her some help, but no matter - he is hurting his W, his M.

Stay calm, you're not going anywhere. Hopefully the experts can get you in a place where you're able to lay down your boundaries & get back to your recovery.

wtr: Your WH is a huge bully who knows that all he has to do is get angry and threaten you with both emotional AND physical violence to make you back down. As soon as he gets nasty, he knows you will immediately feel frightened and guilty and will run away. Then he's free to go back to his girlfriends - online and otherwise - with no more interference from you. And that's exactly what he wants.

As long as you fear his anger, he's got the upper hand. He is bullying and cruel because it WORKS for him. It allows him to have both a wife and girlfriends, and since that is his #1 goal right now (never forget this!) he cares nothing for the damage he is doing to you.

Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS. It only matters to a S. See the difference? Your husband is a WS right now and that's why he's being so cruel.

The only way around this is to stop being afraid of his anger. Now, make no mistake - NOBODY here is telling you to stay with an abusive spouse. But if this is a matter of he yells and threatens and you back down, you must stop backing down. And if this makes him escalate towards you, then you immediately call the cops and have his lying, cheating, cowardly bullying *ss thrown in jail for a while. He absolutely deserves it.

(I'm sorry - was that a DJ? Well, you know Mulan's Corollary: "It ain't a DJ if it's true.")

You can also read the first link in my sig line - the one about "The Boomerang Relationship" - but I'm not entirely sure he's Passive/Aggressive. He may have been for a while and then just escalated into full-blown Aggressive when he got caught. Some of them do move straight into Aggressive if P/A no longer works.

There have been many discussions here about boundaries in marriage. You have none, it seems, while your WH's boundaries are just as backwards as they can be.

There is much work to be done here, but it's not hopeless. You will have to start with boundaries - not his, because you can't control those, but YOURS.

Good luck.
Mulan

wtr,

Like I said, it is quite easy to become engrossed in someone else's world, and start to converse regularly about her situation. This IS how EA's begin. Don't be clouded by his online gaming to ignore these signs. Setting up a boundary here would be good.

Let me give you an example, my WH came home after his A, and WE made no real recovery steps together. I worked on personal recovery, but was waiting out the fog and the 'broken heart' from the loss of his affair partner, in the mean time, WH was making new friends. He was particularly attached to the young woman, and began to have many conversations with her; they would IM, TM, call each other (both married). I became aware of this, and told him that this relationship made me uncomfortable. He then said that she is only his friend, and he would not end the relationship. After a month of dealing with the GUT WRENCHING feeling, I asked WH to leave AGAIN. He was having another affair and would not end it. Boundary crossed, not followed, and I enforced.

WH may never come back, but I don't want someone who treats me like the dirt under his boots, either. I'm okay with my decision to be treated with respect. Your H's reaction sounds fishy, WAAAAAAY too overblown! Something is not right. If he is saying things about taking HIS children with you, then guilt may be playing a part in this.

Keep posting, let us know what's happening. I'm no expert, but I have learned alot through the affair that my WH had, and this reaction is suspicious, in the least.

{{{WTR}}}

I remember you...

Do you remember...about separate and equal? About his stuff NOT being yours? Listen and repeat?

You say there is nothing you can say he'll listen to...and I ask, are you listening to yourself? Are you hearing the power struggle both within the marriage and within yourself?

Ouch...ouch...ouch...lots of pain in your posts...reasonable pain...and some, added...can you remove the part you add to yourself? Like wondering if you're laying next to a man in love with someone else? Totally within your control...a self-stab you would do well, be loving, to remove from your heart. Inward focus, WTR...seeing, as Mulan and others have said...where YOUR boundaries are, what predetermined, progressive enforcements you put into place...and are committed to acting on...

Your FWH is now WH again...no ownership, blame-shifting, fogged out...you remember those signs? On the anniversary DDay time no less...see the alien? Remember the alien...know that is not your DH...that is WH...he's back...full of justifications, rewriting and resentment.

You have no control over his stuff...just your own...how much of the pain you are experiencing right now is self-betrayal?

In your corner,

LA

"I have really been trying to POJA it by accepting the more casual stuff. "

That's a non-sequitur.
POJA isnt about "accepting" stuff.
If you're not "enthusiastic" about him doing that stuff.. then it isnt "POJA".

sounds like you're bargaining, not having "joint agreement".

wtr,

I'd like you to memorize the next statements:

H, I understand how upset you are, but I'm not leaving my home or taking my children away from their home at Christmas. If you are so unhappy that you're willing to abandon the people who love you the most....then I can't stop you but I will not involve these innocents in that kind of chaos.

Do nothing to pack or leave. If he tries physically forcing you out....call 911. If he continues to threaten you....please see an attorney and get a temporary order of some kind to keep the children in their home.

Now.....please go back and reread what LovingAnyway had to say....because while you can't control HIM....you can explore what contribution you may have in this.

My gut feeling is that your husband will rethink this....it sounds like an enormous over-reaction....or a new red flag (EA). It's hard to say which at this point....but be prepared for anything.

((((((((((((((((((((((wtr)))))))))))))))))))))))))

Absolutely. Write this down if you have to.


I agree 100%. Do Not Leave unless you feel physically threatened, and in that case you call 911. Otherwise, let him know HE is free to leave anytime he wants but you will not be forced out of your marital home. You have just as much (legal) right to be there as he does so don't let him bully you into thinking you don't.

Expect him to rage if you tell him these things. It's always worked for him before so he will expect it to work again. Just walk away and go sit with the kids while he does. He will be madder than ever when he finds that bullying doesn't work with you any more, so do not be surprised when he tries to push your buttons even harder.

If you feel you need to keep a cell phone in your pocket at all times so you can call 911 if necessary, then do so. Don't tell him this - just do it. And don't hesitate to use it.

Please keep posting and let us know how you are.
Mulan

Yes, it is always boundaries with me/us. I do have trouble with them. He hates to be controlled or told what to do, and that is how he sees my boundaries. What I really want is for him to protect the marriage on his own. But I am not sure he knows how.


Mulan,

I am still struggling with the Passive/Agressive thing. I think you are right that he is agressive now, but he is passive about stuff too. Goes to MC, but never reads the book she suggests.

I have no idea how to start with boundaries now. He wants me out of the house. It seems hopeless to try to set or enforce anything right now.

I will look for some of the thread on boundaries.


Silent,

I am on guard, believe me. There is something not right, but I can't figure it out. He was so determined that this marriage was over at the beginning. Now he has said in MC that he is committed, we are staying together, things have been better. Why this now?

My fear is that this is within him. He blew when I mentioned his affair, and the first thing he was mad about, was that he shared something with me, and would never do it again. He is pushing out of this relationship just like a WS. But he is also a person who has a hard time taking responsibility for his actions. I don't know what to believe, but you are right, I can't live my life with a WS.


LA,

Thank you. Your posts always get me thinking. Your words have inspired me on so many different threads.

I do see that he is a WS again. But it seems to me that it is only in mentality. There have been so many things with him that I believe anything is possible, but I really don't think he is in an affair. That is why this seems so out of the blue to me.

And I am trying to look inward. It is hard right now. I have grown so much this year. I know myself better, control my LB's, and work each day on emotional needs. But now I must turn to boundaries, and I honestly don't think I know how.


Techie,
Oh, you are right. I should have seen that when I wrote it! I guess I considered accepting to be as enthusiastic as I can get.

I've read your thread, and hope that things work out for you. These online games can really throw trouble into a marriage!

WTR,
You cannot control his behavior so don't even try. Tell him how you feel about what he is doing. Be specific. It concerns me that you have on-line conversations like that. Don't bring up the affair.

See what he does.

I'm going through this myself. To be honest, it's horrible. He wants to call me controlling and uncaring, but all I am doing is telling him how I feel. How is that controlling or uncaring?

Respectful

Stop beating yourself up over this. You have handled all the situations correctly and your FWH is the one who needs to change his attitudes and behaviors.

This seems to be a boundary issue. You have requested that he subscribe to reasonable boundaries in order to allow you to regain trust in him over time. He lied to you and betrayed you when he made the choice to have an A. And you should now blanketly trust him? I don't think so. If he wants to have you in his life, he has to understand that his choices have now resulted in consequences to him. It is perfectly acceptable at this point for you to DEMAND that he not be involved in situations like some online games that could result in him starting down a slippery slope of having his needs met again outside the marital relationship. After all, he proved once already that given the right sitch, he makes bad choices.

As BS's should we punish our WS's forever and never give them any lee way...nope, that is punative and not conducive to rebuilding a good relationship but they have to earn their way back to be allowed to engage in activities that could result in another inappropriate relationship. Just because an alcoholic has fought off temptations to drink for many months or many years doesn't mean that we should stock his cabinets with liquor and blindly trust that he will not sneek a swig. Why should we treat a former adulterer any differently. If they want a healthy marriage, their first concern should be on protecting you from additional hurt. Secondly, they should protect themselves from making another stupid decision and then only if the first two criteria are met, they can endulge in activities that are escapes or recreational for them. JMHO.

NT

star*fish,

I will memorize it! I need total control over what comes out of my mouth right now. And I hope H isn't reading this site today. I don't think he would, but maybe...

I hope he will rethink this. I am worried about him. I know work has been hard lately. To see this side of him, he must be in so much pain. But, I control me and my stuff, right!

I think about your signature line often. I really have tried to inspire him to want to change. Maybe that is part of where I got into trouble with boundaries. I was to busy trying to inspire, when I needed to enforce.


Mulan,

I know I am in good legal standing on the house. No judge is going to throw a stay at home mom and two little girls out on the street at Christmas. But if this gets really awful, and he would let me live with the girls out of state and with my family, that is something to consider. No judge would ever make that happen unless he was dangerous to the kids.

But I have no idea how he will react if he really wants me out. When he had the affair, he offered me everyhing I wanted, and wanted to take care of me always. Now he is raging hate at me. Maybe the cell phone is a good idea.

I'm glad for these boards today.