Yes, WW is very angry at me because I came back home. She is also angry about a lot of things I did/didn't do in our marriage but as I have come to learn some of that is fog-speak, especially the revisionist history part.

We both have a lot to do to make this work, and my fear is that she will not be committed to doing it. We will see.

None of them are committed to working on the marriage at first. But please trust that moving back home was ESSENTIAL in saving your marriage. Let her be angry.

Know that you are standing for your family - your children, even though you cannot be with them. A man steps up to the plate and does what needs to be done, and you have done that. Good on you.

Ephn

Merry Christmas...so sorry you are alone today but know that we are thinking of you.

I wanted to say this also...IF your situation doesn't right itself and you don't save your marriage...this holiday will be a FACT which your then ex-wife can NEVER deny. This battle goes beyond the year or two it take to save it or end it. As your children grow older and the time lapses from the actual "infidelity" event it becomes tougher to maintain a believable framework from which YOU can still argue/demonstrate/maintain that it was not YOUR fault and that you did all you could to save it. Over the years, your then ex-wife and her family can use "nice" terms to describe things like "we just fell out of love" or "we both hurt each other a lot" or "too much water under the bridge". They will claim you are just bitter if you attempt to continue to discredit your xw. The kids will get sick of it...not know who to believe and just chalk it up to humanistic explanations. After all they will know plenty of other divorced kids that just won't care to get the truth.

Thus your battle today is to not only fight for marriage but forever document that it's not at all about you. YOU lived up to your vows to the bitter end, YOU fought for those kids to the bitter end...YOU were the responsible, committed, logical and reasonable ADULT upon whom YOUR family can and should always rely on for the truth, for rightness, for justice...for LOVE.

In doing so...you just may save your marriage in the process.

God Bless Eph

Mr. Wondering

Thanks for your kinds words MrW.

I am actually debating on driving up to MIL's house with the presents for everyone and just saying 'Merry Christmas" and see what happens.

One more knife in the heart today:

In talking engagements with my wife I learned that she wanted to have her family be a part of the special moment. So on this day in 1996 I proposed to my W in front of her entire family.

So sorry to hear that, Eph. But you can have the peace of knowing that you are the one fighting for your family after all of these years.

Like Mr W says, she is not going to be able to gloss this one over.

Just talked to the kids - they are having a great Christmas Day. Both of them (DS5, DD3) asked when they would be able to see me and talked of coming home. As mush as that breaks my heart that has to do something to WW's heart as well. I asked if we could get together tomorrow and exchange gifts but WW again said they have plans alrerady (like they did today but they are just at MIL's house). I mentioned about it being 10 years since I proposed and she said she has not really thought about it.

You know, I don't feel like I am making any imapct in what I am fighting for. if anything, I am the one being alienated and I am not even the WS here. How twisted is this? Right now it feels like she is winning. It's driving me crazy.

She is NOT winning. She is angry with you for moving home and wanting to save the family. She is punishing you for stepping up and being a man.

Please trust me on this. She would prefer for you to take the easy way, move out, and let her do what she pleases. Later she will respect you for the stand you are taking. In the meantime, she will continue trying to make you miserable.

Years ago, in the middle of a big divorce and custody battle, my husband disappeared with our boys for a week. He told them that I didn't want to be married anymore, and didn't want them.

My sons were only 2 and 4. My 4 year old later told me that he KNEW that I loved them. See, my husband dropped by the house a couple of times while I was at work. I had made the boys beds, arranged their stuffed animals, etc.

So even a very young child can pick up on things. If I were you, I would have the presents in the house, pay special attention to their rooms. It is sad for your boys, but what they most need now is one parent fighting for their family. And that parent is YOU.

By the way, I got sole custody of my kids, and supervised visitation for him. The judge didn't like the way my husband used the kids.

Today of all days she is succeeding in trying to make me feel miserable.

Do you have any idea who the OM might be?

I know for a fact who it is. Thinking of paying him a visit tomorrow and telling him that I am trying to save our marriage and if he has any respect for me, W, and our family he will not attempt to contact her or accept any contact WW tries to make.

Bad idea. Please stay away from him - he doesn't have any respect for you, your wife, or your family.

But it would be good to expose the affair to anyone that would have input to him - his parents, friends, work, etc.

I called WW today to ask if she wanted to go to dinner and talk and her reply was that there was nothing to talk about. I asked again about seeing her and the kids to have Christmas together and she said she had to think about it because she thinks I will use the kids to get back at her. This comes from a comment I made once about protecting the kids and keeping them with me which she took as a threat.

VENTING TIME:
Huh? Excuse me? She has the nerve to say this when she is the one who has run off from the family home with the children all because I stood up for what was right and came home? Then she brings up how she cannot trust me and that my word means nothing to her. All while she has been lying about seeing OM. She is trustworthy? It's all I can do to keep from blowing up when she does this. I know I cannot let this AO happen, but good gosh it absolutely kills me to hear this junk thrown back at me. I really want her to know how I feel without it being angry or retaliatory, but I cannot help but think if I try it will end up like that. Does she really think she can look at herself and our kids and say that she tried everything and that giving up is the best thing to do?
VENTING OVER

So she wants to come over tomorrow and pick up some "loose stuff" and have a discussion about how to divide up stuff in the house.

VENTING AGAIN:
What? She continues to deny me peaceful access to the kids and she wants to talk about dividing up family items? Who does she think she is, anyway? This is freaking ridiculous. There is no way I am willing to let her have anything in the house. I am so pissed off right now it is not funny. And to top it all off I an getting as sick as a dog.
VENTING OVER

The only thing I can think to do is try to tell her how I feel about the situation in a non-LBing manner and tell her that I do not wish to make any agreements to anything while she is involved with OM (even if I only have proof of an EA right now). She is going to deny this and the only think I know to do at this point is to tell her the facts as I know them from the PI.

Something like:

Me: It hurts me to hear you say our marriage is over. I think the best-case scenario for us and the kids is we try to build a new marriage. I know it will take work. I know I have things I need to change about myself in order to better meet your needs. I was not as committed to doing that in the past as I should have been because I didn't have anything real to base it on, but I feel like the MB principles that I have been researching will help us build a solid foundation. I don't feel like we had something like that in the past. I have what it takes in me to do this and I believe that you do as well.

WW: I told you already I am done. Your words mean nothing to me.

Me: I have heard you say you are done and my words mean nothing to you. I have been deeply hurt by your dishonesty about seeing and communicating with OM.

WW: Are you bringing this up again?

Me: You have a cell phone that is registered to OM that you kept secret from me. You have a laptop computer that you kept secret from me. Having those things says to me that you are keeping communications with OM in secret. You picked up OM on your way to the Dr and he went with you.

WW: I told you I took the cell phone back to him and he did not go with me. There is nothing on the laptop.

Me: I know and have proof that OM went with you to the Dr. What I have learned is that as long as OM is in the picture you will not want to work on our marriage. Also, I am not talking separation and divorce, only what it will take to recover and build a new marriage.

WW: What marriage?

Me: The marriage we have that has produced 2 beautiful children that need a mother and father. The one that our marriage certificate says took place on June 6, 1998. But I don't want our old marriage, I want a new, living, vibrant, marriage.

WW: I told you I don't want to be married to you.

This is where I start to lose the conversation because it ends up in this loop. I could use some assistance in getting out of this loop.

This whole thing is really draining me physically and emotionally and I still catch myself wondering if it is all worth it. Right now the only thing keeping me going is the fact that I want to be able to look at myself and my kids and say I did everything I could to save things. I just am starting to wonder if I have reached that point because I cannot get through the walls of anger and contempt built up in the WW. I know that my W is a loving, caring, respectful, fun loving person and right now I do not even see that in her at all.

Please pray for me that I will have the physical and emotional strength to pursue her and that any conversations tomorrow would go well. May every thought and every word be from God.

Hey Eph...

Look, all of the things she is saying are because of the fog. She is "drunk." Let's say this all had not happened, and that your wife came home one night drunk and started saying a bunch of stuff. Would you really take what she is saying seriously? Or could it be the booze talking?

Same goes here. All WSs do what you described above. And yes, it is very hard to hear that. But literally, they are not of their right minds. So, you are going to have to learn to separate yourself from her words right now. Otherwise, you will get drained and you will explode.

Now, the issue of the kids and the stuff in the house. I assume you have yet to see the kids since she left, right? And if this is true, what is the status on getting your lawyer to rectify that?

If that process is going on, then here's what I would do about the stuff in the house. I assume you have changed the locks on the house. If not, do so today! Then, let your WW know that since she has chosen to take the kids from the family home and to keep them from their father, that this issue will be settled in court shortly. And at that time, the judge can decide what she can get out of the house. In most states, division of marital property isnt decided until the end of the process. Sure, you can do so in the beginning (in a separation agreement), but of course, you arent going to agree to that.

So, sicne she has left, it is highly probably that the judge would only award her being able to get "personal" items (clothing, etc).

As I told you before, please make sure you have a pit bull for an attorney...and get him moving on protecting your interests. Defending boundaries is NOT a love buster!! Defending your family, your home and your marriage are not love busters!

You need to pen her in. She already is living at her mom's. So while trying to Plan A her, you also need to work behind the scenes to close off all of the things her Taker wants (divorce, house, OM, kids, money, etc). Get busy.

You need to hand your attorney an open and shut case. Oh yeah, and I assume that you have been documenting EVERYTHING!!

First of all, when she says she is worried that you will use the kids to get back at her, you need to point out that is what she is doing.

Secondly, you don't need to prove to her how you know about OM. She already knows. Let's say you get her to confess, then what? What does that do for you? Yeah, it may give you some satisfaction that she knows she's caught, but it will only tip her off that she is being followed, and it may send her into a fury. There is no use of telling her how you know, just that you know.

Don't let her take a d*mn thing out of your house. If she wants something, tell her she can talk to your lawyer. Tell her you aren't giving her a divorce, and she is in for a fight if she wants to break apart your family, possibly risking losing the children. Make sure your lawyer is ready for this challenge.

Oh...let me revise this above a little...

Dont come off as a hard a$$, okay? Dont say this stuff in a tone like you are gonna take her to the cleaners. As a matter of fact, just say the following:

WW: "I want to come get some stuff and talk about dividing up the property."

EPH: "What's there to talk about?" <a little reverse babble, since she said this about talking about the marriage>

WW: "Look, Eph, you dont have to be difficult. I'm not coming back, but we can work out a lot of this ourselves. That would be best for the kids."

EPH: "I dont do divorce...I do marriage. Thus, I am not willing to discuss divorce or divorce-related issues with you. I believe what's best for the kids is two loving parents in the same home. Outside of that, I do not agree."

WW: "You know...I will take you to court and you will never see these kids again."

EPH: "WW, I love you and the kids very much. I have asked you repeatedly to work on the marriage. I have also asked for you to give me access to the kids. You have done neither. I have not changed my mind about you or them...nor will I. As I said, I dont do divorce...I do marriage."

WW: "Well, yo uare goign to have to deal with me on this as I am not coming back and I will show the judge that you are being unreasonable."

EPH: "WW, you can do as you feel you have to. No oen can stop you. As I said, I love you and my family. If you chose to leave this family, then of course, there is nothign I can do to stop you."

WW: "I'm not leaving the family...I'm leaving you."

EPH: "However you want to look at it, WW. But as far as those remaining in the family...me and the kids...none of us want you to leave nor want their family destroyed. But none of us are getting a choice in that matter. If the other people in the family besides you got to vote, you would not be leaving. So, it appears that the family wants to stay together. It is you that wants to leave."

WW: "You are impossible to talk to. Why do you have to be this way? This is why I am leaving you. Why cant you get it together?"

Eph: "You are free to think what you want, WW. But just know that I love you and our family and I want us to work out our issues and move forward. I have not, nor will I, change my mind."

WW: phone goes 'click'


Okay, you see how that works? You stay on message. You dont get caught up in the "well, if you try to take the kids, I will get my lawyer to..." You DO NOT talk about divorce. Period! Let your attorney do the talking.

When you file for custody, do so first. And when you do so, dont tell yoru wife beforehand. Dont answer her questions about it once you have done so. Just go back to "I do marriage, my attorney does divorce..." mantra. That way over time, she will see that in order to talk to you, she will only be talking about marriage and family. In order to talk abotu divorce, she will have to talk to your attorney.

It sort of takes you out of the "bad guy" role.

So, update me on your status with your lawyer, the kids, the locks on the house, etc.

Eph,

I've read your story, and as every one who has been replying to you has suggested, your situation is not unique and you can make it through.

I've noticed some legal questions about SC, and I can provide some insight, as i am dealing with the legal system in this state currently. I am not a Lawyer, but I have learned a great deal in the past year as I have dealt with my situation.

To prove adultry in SC you need inclination and oppurtunity. What does this mean? You need to prove your WW had the inclination to commit adultry, and had the oppurtunity to do so. What does this mean? something simple like kissing, holding hands, etc. can prove inclination. To prove oppurtunity all you need is to prove that your WW was in a private location with OM for a lenghth of time to consumate the act. It sounds like your PI already got that by tracking your WW to OM's house. If she was inside for more than 15 min or so, you have oppurtunity. In other words, in SC you don't need 8 x10 glossy photos of the two in the act to prove adultry. Another idea: it sounds like OM went with WW to Atl. Did they stay in a hotel? Do you know which? If so give the hotel security manager a call. Most hotels keep all security camera footage for a couple of weeks, sometimes a month. Explain your situation to the security manager, and ask that he set aside any footage for the day in question. Something simple like footage of WW and OM checking in together will be a homerun in court. Once the legal battle is joined your lawyer can send a subpeona to the hotel for the footage.
here is a key point: In SC, adultry, by law, forever bars alimony, regardless of any other issues such as custody, etc. But adultry can play a huge part in the judge's decision when it comes to custody.
Hang in there man, you will overcome.

Would the fact that she previously admitted to having an affair with the OM multiple times previously in the marriage qualify for inclination?

Jw, excellent question which raises a couple of points i didn't address in my above post.

In SC, if you have SF with WS after full diclosure of the A, it indicates forgiveness which means you can't pursue adultery in court. In other words, if you file on Dec 31 claiming Adultery, and have SF on Jan 1, you can't legally claim Adultery.

However in this case, the previous A (3 years ago) was followed by SF, which means eph can't bring it up in court. But, it certainly appears that the A is ongoing, so it is definatly pursueable in court.

But eph, be careful. My lawyer has warned me that many WS on finding out about the above described 'escape clause' will lure the BS into a one night stand to cover thier tracks. So once the battle is joined in court, be very careful about any 'premature' recovery, as it can backfire on you.

A couple of more thoughts on inclination, phone records and emails can certainlly help. There have been a few tips on this above, but realize that both of these things are subpeonable once the temp order is issued.