First time poster, short time reader and researcher her on MB. This one is long.

background:

Me(BS) - 33, Her(WW) - 30 (just turned), Married 8 years, 2 kids ages 5 and 3.

6 weeks ago my wife wrote me a letter stating she could no longer stay in our marriage, that she needed to fight for herself and her ED rather than the marriage. Our marriage has been somewhat tumultous with us LB'ing all over the place, in and out of IC and MC for various issues related to our past. We had just started to communicate with each other about where we felt our marriage had come, where it was, and where it could go when she dropped the bomb.

My initial reaction was I did not agree to any kind of separation or divorce and I was not leaving the house, then of course I got all clingy. She moved into the guest room and got all private on me, keeping pocket book close by, cell phone nearby, dropped some cash at VS on underwear, took her "toy" with her, etc so I suspected an A of some sort was in processes.

Without any direction I tried to do what I later learned was Plan A (work on me - I am in IC, love her selflessly) but I still continued to LB rather than meet EN. Once I found this site and started reading SAA and HNHN and researching I did manage to learn (thanks to some posters here on spying - eblaster is great) about some EAs online via chat and e-mail. I felt this was part of the reason why she felt the way she did (the fog) so I exposed what I knew and she admitted it was going on. She agreed to send NC e-mail that I read, then we deleted her extra e-mail accounts and a Friendster account; however it seemed to be to easy and did not sit well in my gut. I continued to spy and after digging around in her room I found out she has a laptop that she will not not let me even look at now so I know there is more going on, then later found a box to a cell phone registered to a dude she had a PA with 3 years ago, the results of which we were still working through and she was attempting to keep NC with. She then asked me to leave the house on 11/20 due to stress and I dumbly agreed.

In the meantime I have read many people's stories on here and of course the veterans recommend to go back home. I called and had and appt with Steve on Tuesday, and we started a plan to see if we could convince her to just look at the MB principles, and if she flat out refused then we would go from there. He did not reommend going back home yet, nor further exposing my further A findings. Well today she flat out refused to look at the MB principles so here we go....

So now i am digging in for the long haul and steeling myself for what else I may find. I talked to a lawyer today to understand my legal options. I will not pursue separation and divorce, I will put that burden on her; however I will protect myself and the kids however I can. She has already stated that she and the kids would go to her brother's in KY if I come back and I don't want her to pull our oldest child out of school and leave the Dr. she is seeing for the ED.

This is a mess, but it is similar to other stories on here. I rejoice with the ones who have made it - it gives me hope. Basically I am clinging to God and his promise from Isaiah 41:10.

I welcome everyone's advice. Post away, help me to not be blind, encourage me, pray for me, guide me, etc. I still love my wife and want to rebirth my marriage.

what is ED?

ED=Eating Disorder, i.e. Bulimia

WOW, your story sounds like mine. Any chance you could get eBlaster or Spector on the laptop? Although this may up the ante and outrage her, you may want to stop her legally from taking the kids out of state. Crossing state lines is a no, no. Is the brother reasonable, does he like you? You may want to inform him of what's going on and if he is family centered, he maybe can refuse her coming there for the sake of your family. I think she's bluffing mostly, passive aggressive and using reverse psychology. Just keepbeing there for her and the kids. Get back in there. Don't leave or give up until you are ready to pull your hair out for days, then you can seperate with no guilt. Boy, the cell phone, thing, brings back memories. I demanded my wife close her account, I dialed for her, I walked out of the room to get other phone to verify, while I was gone, she hung up and continued to act as if she were closing it (even pretending to give the phone company her SSN), get it? I held the phone up and busted her, then we called them right back. It's warfare. The she cried, which just about destroyed me. Hang in there. 2 years later, I'm glad I stayed. Not to mean it's all good, but I did the right thing, not what was fair.

You need to get your lawyer to file a motion to keep her from moving the children out of state ASAP. After that you need to move back in to the house, gather up your evidence, and expose her to anyone that would be in a position to put pressure on her to end her affair including her family, friends, coworkers and boss (if the OM and her work together). This is a huge threat to your marriage and you must be unafraid to step up and confront this challenge. Work on yourself (ie figure out what emotional needs you weren't meeting, plan A, stop LBing, go to the gym, hang out with friends and family for support, go get some ADs, get to church, etc.) and hopefully your wife will notice if her affair starts falling apart. You can do this. Be strong and stand up for your family!

- Jim

Thanks for the advice. I would love to get eblaster on the laptop. Problem is twofold - need to get the laptop in my hands, then need to the password. I did change the password on the wireless so she can't connect that way any more. I also bought a wherifone last night and will use the GPS functions that you (dveloperz) have mentioned.

The brother and I are good friends, but I have to wonder about the whole blood being thicker than water thing.

The lawyer I talked to indicated it would be hard to get a TRO but we might be able to be creative.

My plan is to go back home, expose all the new info I know about, call her brother and mother as well os the OM and explain as nice but as firm as I can that I know what is going on and that I will not stand for it. I also hope to hear back from Steve Harley to get his opinion on this.

The whole "alien abduction" analogy is certainly valid here
I'll keep updating as we go along.

It's good to hear you are taking action to get your marriage back. So many BSs are so afraid to confront their problems head on. The meekly sit by and take no action which just enables the WS to continue and meanwhile does major emotional damage to the BS. Trust me, the actions you are taking WILL have a positive impact on your situation. My WW agreed to NC just 5 days after exposure (which she has since broke once for a 5 minute phone conversation, but we're continuing to work towards reconciliation). However, it will get better before it gets worse. When you expose, you will send your WW in a rage where she will threaten you and say all kinds of nasty things to you, but usually they are just hollow threats to get you to back off their affair. My WW swore that I had ruined any chance or reconciliation the first few days after exposure, but after the 5th day there was NC. Isn't that what you want? Good luck in weathering the storm. It is freezing rain here in STL, and is supposed to drop 4-8" of snow on top tonight.

- Jim

P.S. Where are you at in SC? I used to live in Florence.

I'll admit that I am afraid of the repercussions/reactions of my WW but I have to face my fears head on. Even though she has expressed no desire to work towards reconciliation, I know that this is a product of being engrossed in the A. I can see the impact on her by the direct impact on her health.

My biggest fear, though, is that I will not legally be able to prevent her from taking the kids away if I cannot prove they will be harmed by this (that's what the lawyer said). But then again, maybe going home will call her bluff.

Thanks for the info. Keep it coming. I was hoping others would join in also.

jmwc95 I am following your thread as well. Maybe I can help you as you are helping me.

dveloperz - did you have any problems with coverage using the wherifone?

Where does the OM live? If she is leaving town so that she can continue her affair that would definitely harm the children. If the OM lives in town, I doubt that she would move that far away from him. I think you need to call her bluff.

- Jim

WW's brother is in KY. OM lives about 50 miles from where we live in SC.

I think you are right about moving so far away, and even if she tries I will get my hands on that laptop and other cell phone.

Does your wife work? It would be hard for her to support the children without any financial help. You could argue that she would harm the children by not being able to provide a home for them or provide for them financially. I also doubt that her brother would want to financially support his sister and their children when she has a husband that is more than willing to support all of them. I make almost 2.5 times more than my WW and she likes the comfortable lifestyle that we can afford together. When I threatened to kick her out of the house and financially cut her off, she got a nice dose of reality. Let her know that if she is leaving (and she is still married to you), you will not support her decision. Cut her off financially. WW are used to using intimidating tactics to get what they want. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

- Jim

Excellent points. No, she does not work, she has been a Stay at home mom for 5+ years and she threw out to me once that her family would support her, but I think if they know the real story they may not.

At any rate, cutting her off financially is a good idea. At least I can control that unless she goes and files for separation and possiblt alimony but she may not have a way to pay for that either.

Everyone, I request your prayers for the strength to expose, to expose in love, and to not lose it emotionally when I do.

Pray that this would be the step that starts on on the long road to recovery.

Thanks.

You'll be fine. It feels a lot better when you have more people on your side. Instead of you versus them, it is the whole village versus them. It is empowering to expose the affair. Trust me, you may think you made a mistake at first, but after a few days her anger will subside. I think our situations are a lot like each other. Our WWs were very angry and tried to intimidate us into allowing their affairs to continue. When faced with the very real possibility of being cut off, I'm sure she'll get the same dose of reality my WW got. I'll keep you in my prayers. Let us know how it turns out.

- Jim

Quick update:

Had a short sessions with Steve H today. My plan now is to go back home Sunday (I am out of town this weekend). Worst case I expect WW to blow up over this and leave herself, best case she stays but we will be in separate rooms again. She may even accelerate Legal Separation, but I have my lawyer on standby. If I am guilty of anything I am guilty of wanting to save my marriage. WW told me today she would let me know when she wanted me to pursue her. Yeah, right, like that will happen any time while an A is going on. Exposure is coming....

WW did help me fill out the LB questionnaire together - lots of negatives from her but we did get the top 6 LB nearly identical. Man, I have some work to do but I fully embrace the challenge as my past does not dictate my future.

I wish I could just get her to look at the MB principles, she does not have to commit to anything yet. Still won't consider IC or MC, says she is working on herself, i.e. Ishe is too busy in an A for me right now.

Thanks everyone.

SCBetrayed,

It is good to see you taking the first steps in saving your marriage. From your story, I think the ability to save your marriage is entirely in your hands. If you execute a good plan A (and maybe plan B), I'm confident that you'll be able to save your marriage. You need to be that confident as well. She is tied to you strongly. You are the father of her children and the sole breadwinner in the household, and you have a long history together. Things may move painstakingly slowly, but you will untimately succeed. Remeber to stay calm and firm and follow the MB principles. Don't give in to your WW no matter how much she goes kicking and screaming and threatening you. These are typical WW ploys to get you to back off of their addiction. Ask God for the strength to get you through this, and with God on your side, you will not fail. Good luck, the journey has just begun. Keep us posted.

- Jim

P.S. You sleep in the marital bedroom. If anyone needs to move out, it is the person having the affair. Again, it is all about setting boundaries and gaining respect.

Well here is how tonight went:

I told my wife I was coming home (I have been out two weeks, bad decision I know) because I wanted to stand for our marruage and fulfill the vows I made to her. She flipped out about changing my mind because we have an agreement, which is an unsigned draft of a LSA we started on but I have no intention of completing right now. I then went for the exposure of the A, said to tell me what was going on with OM. She flat denied anything, then I asked about the cell phone she has registered to OM. She said it is so she can talk to people, I said Oh so you can talk to OM without me knowing. She denied that and denies any A is going on. I said let me see the cell phone and the laptop, she would not do it. I said prove to me nothing is going on by sharing thse, she still would not. She is still keeping secrets there, I know it.

She then said "me and the kids are leaving," and I said I would help her pack. She called her mom to come help also. She tried to put all the blame on me, I tried to stay calm and not engage in LB behavior. She did not want me to stay in the house because then the separation time would start over. She will be leaving tomorrow, probably to go either to her mom's (living with BF) in NC about 1 hour away or brother's in KY about 5 hrs away.

I told her I will not talk separation and divorce, this is what the lawyers will do.

Now the doubts are creeping in and I wonder if I did the right thing. So how the heck can I do a plan A if she is gone? Does this put me in plan B by default? Now what do I do? I will talk to my lawyer again tomorrow to see what can be done to stop her from taking kids, but like I mentioned before is not too hopeful.

This pain is so great right now. From her perspective the M is over. Am I naive to think otherwise? Help, please.

Heading over to the house this afternoon to help her pack. Even though she denies the A, should I expose to her mom and brother? They are her only support right now.

To hear her say the words "I'm done" and "Don't even look at me" in the tone she uses just cuts like a knife. Then when I tell her that I want to make every attempt to meet her needs, she says "That is what I used to want. Those are not my needs any more." From what I have read here this sounds like typical WW talk.

Off to call the lawyer to see if I can do anything to postpone this.

You did the right thing.

Your WW is pissed because you called her bluff. Now she feels like she has to go through with it anyway so she doesn't lose credibility. You need to take her cell phone and laptop. Search the entire house for it, and do not let her take it. Do not help her back. You don't want her to leave with your children. Next step you need to do is expose her affair to her family and friends. Let them know why your WW wants to stay with them. It is because my WW is having an affair with OM and does not want me to interfere. I am committed to saving my marriage and keeping my family together. That is all you need to say. Expore to OM's family and significant other (if there is one). If you can't get into your WW cell phone or laptop, get a PI to help you. You need this info. You can still plan A while she is gone.

This is IMPORTANT. If your lawyer isn't going to vigorously defend your rights, you need to find a lawyer that will. None of this, "I don't think we can win" crap. He needs to be filing papers left and right to at least temporarily keep her from leaving the state. It seems like your lawyer isn't going to go through the effort if he feels it won't do any good. You are the client, and he needs to do what you want.

I'll get the pros involved to help you out. Stay strong, you did the right thing. It always gets worse before it gets better. This was to be expected, but it was necessary to save your marriage. My WW's affair was over 5 DAYS after I exposed. Keep the faith, and put your life in God's hands.

Thanks Jim, standing by for the pros.

She will be pissed about trying to get the laptop and phone - I don't care. She says I am treating her like a kid, trying to control her, trying to force my decisions on her. It may seem like that to her, but I am trying to save our marriage.

Oh, and I did leave a message on the OM's phone saying the secret is out in the open.

You are treating her like a kid because she is acting like a kid. My WW accused me of being controlling, and I said, "If it is controlling to keep your wife from fooling around with another guy, well then I guess I'm controlling." I left it at that. There is no arguing with a WW.

Oh yes, you should expose this affair to everyone. Call up her mother and brother NOW and tell them about the affair. NOW!

And don't allow her to take your kids out of their safe home to accomodate her affair. If she wants to leave for an affair, she can leave, but your kids should not be snatched frm their home.

Nor would I let her take any furniture, joint possessions unless she has a court order and a sheriff with a big gun.

Hopefully, your lawyer can prevent her from taking the kids. I suspect her leaving stunt may be a ploy to get you out of the house so she can resume her affair. So, don't fall for it and ensure your atty understands that your goal is COME HOME. Most atty's only want to facilitate an amicable divorce, so let him know this is not your goal.

Be strong! God Bless!

You need to expose before your WW and OM preempt you on exposure with a story of their own. Get a PI involved if you have to, but expose today!

Is the OM married?

Talked to my lawyer - unless the children are in danger there is no way to stop her from leaving right now. My gut tells me they are not in real danger; if anything they are just being pulled along in this. I told him I only want to talk saving our marriage and I need him for when she wants to talk divorce.

Will call her mother and brother now and let them know what I know and suspect. I also did a background search on OM and will call his parents.

no, OM is not married.

Tell her family that you want to stay married and keep your family together, and would appreciate anything they could do to help. Let them know that there IS an OM, but your wife is denying it.

I doubt that your wife will go very far. She will want to stay close to OM. Don't leave your home. Let her make the decisions now. Don't love bust. Stay calm and be matter of fact.

First of all, yes there is. It is called telling your WW, "NO." They are your kids, too. Can you take some time off work? Stannd up to her and tell her that your children are going nowhere. Don't be afraid of your WW. Call another lawyer and get a second opinion. Surely there is some paperwork that can be filed, if for no other reason, to let your WW know you mean business.

Tell your WW she can go, but she's not taking the children. Go ahead. She'll be furious, but she'll respect you. It sounds to me that she thinks she can walk all over you and get whatever she wants. Let her know that times have changed.

Oh, and you need to expose to her family and friends NOW!

Just called another lawyer and will have a consult today to see if she can do anything different.

Called her mom - she did not really believe the A was part of the problem. Says, like WW, that she does not love me the way a wife should for some time. She did already know that WW was talking to the OM.

of course, her mom did the same thing in her marriage so I should have expected the response I got.

Nice MIL. Did you have a chance to call her brother yet? Maybe he has more sense than his mother and sister.

What time are you going home? I am worried that your W will have the locks changed since you forewarned her.

Can't get in touch with her brother yet.

You know, it makes it hard to trust myself in knowing an A is going on when the WW won't admit to it, and the MIL says what she said. MIL even asked me, "what did you expect by going back home if she says she (WW) does not love you?" I said I am standing for our marriage and if she wants to leave then it's her decision. I hate that I decided to leave for even two weeks; but now if she is able to leave with the kids I won't even be able to see them or her. Gosh, did I really make the right decision here?

How do you do a plan A when the WW is gone?

I have a session with SH tomorrow morning.

SC,

I have been where you are. Listen very carefully....

Everything you do will be presented by her attorney to the judge in the worse possible light. You leaving earlier? She will present it as you abandoned the kids and her. You helping her pack? They will present it as you forcing her out. You allowing her to take the kids with her? They will present it as you condoning the kids moving.

Do not stand for it! Yes, your attorney is correct...in a way. She is their Mom and has legal right to take them where she pleases. But not permanently!

But the big thing to take from this is that YOU ALSO HAVE THE SAME RIGHT!

If I am correct, SC is very similar to Virginia. In that you have fault (adultery, for now...which you need to get all of the info you can to prove that!! More on that in a minute). Shortly, if she leaves, you will have abandonment also. This is why you agree to NOTHING concerning separation, divorce or custody. Not verbally, not in writing, not in action.

If she is going to try to move things out this week, then you be home and make sure she doesnt do it. How? Well, it will be hard for her to take the kids out of the house if you are right there not allowing her to do it. If she makes a scene? Call the police. She will be escorted from the premises, if need be.

Tell her that you are defending the family and yoru marriage. She is free to leave and to seek what she can get from the court system. But, you will not allow anything or anyone to leave outside of her.

While you are trying to save your marriage, you first must shore up your legal position. You must make sure she is penned in. She will hate it, she will be angry. So what? Do right!! Always.

On the legal front, you need to document like crazy. Journal EVERYTHING that has to do with you, her and/or the kids. Get info on the adultery. Get a PI, if need be, to prove that they have been together. Have your lawyer issue a subpoena for phone and email records. You must deal with your wife from a position fo strength.

But first and foremost is protect those kids. If need be, have your attorney file for an immediate court hearing for custody purposes. It might take a few weeks to get in (unless there is an emergency such as abuse).

The kid thing works both ways, they can come stay with you and you take care of them... Get your boss informed of what is going on and make arrangements to have your work covered in case you need to take a time off.

Pick up your kids from school and tell your wife they are staying with you and you will have them at school the next day... make sure your lawyer knows and if she has a lawyer tell your lawyer to contact them and let them know, that your exercising your rights as a parent and that your not taking the kids anywhere.... get the documentation started for your custody rights.

Mortarman,

She is already throwing up verbal agreements we made, but I tell her that not all the info was available (i.e. involvement with OM) so I reserve the right to take back my agreement.

I think in order to subpoena, I need to start a case, which means I need to start paperwork, right? I will ask the lawyer this afternoon.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't want to make a big scene. Maybe she is counting on that. Again, hearing her say "I am done" makes me just want to throw in the towel. Will all this effort drive drive her further away from me?

The only evidence I have of an EA are the cell phone registered to OM, the laptop that *might* have info that she won't let me see, and some before/after screenshots of her Yahoo e-mail account before we deleted it.

You can break in to you own home...however, you may need to be careful of giving her any actions she could use to file a restraining order against you. You can't go busting in windows with the children around and expect a judge to think you "calmly" busted in the window.

The taking the kids out of state is problematic. Without any proceedings and orders prohibiting such, either one of you can do whatever you want with YOUR children. You can't physically stop her. You can say "NO"...but that will only get you so far. Perhaps YOU could be the one to take the kids on a little trip...but kidnapping the kids back and forth is not a good play. If she takes them against your desires, document it, send her emails documenting it and try to make her look bad.

If she ever calls the cops...do not be the irrational one in front of the cops...tell you story calmly and if you are directed to leave...leave. Any lack of respect for the cops or the court will be used against you. Hopefully...she'd be the one going nuts. It is very common for WW's to try to file bogus restraining orders to get you out. Be careful.

IF she does leave the state with the kids you may then necessarily file some papers with the court seeking perhaps a temporary custody order and demand for return of the kids to the jurisdiction. Depends on the state. Based upon what you've said earlier I HOPE you are in Virginia (edited to add - Duh! SC)....one of the toughest states on Adultery around. I would recommend filing such ASAP. I had a friend that was living in Michigan with his wife and 2 kids. Wife went home to Illinois over the summer and unbeknownst to him, obtained an Illinois driver's license. Then she filed for divorce in Illinois (interestingly she filed BEFORE the required waiting period but the judge didn't care). My friend then filed in Michigan trying to get them back in the state...the judge ordered it and he went to Illinois to enforce it and the Judge there believed her crap about him being abusive and controlling and ruled against my friend. Now, he could have appealled and likely won...but he didn't have the money or the resources...so they settled out of court VERY favorable to his now XW.

Unusual story...but these things happen. Be prudent. Consult with your attorney. Stay calm.

Mr. Wondering

MW, I am in SC. I did find out that adultery = no alimony.

The financial aspect of this whole thing is overwhelming. We already have enough debt and I really don't want to pick up more by getting lawyers involved, PIs and such. Maybe she is also trying to use this as a ploy to get what she wants?

Why is it that the right thing to do is often the hardest thing to do?

She can't get any further away NOW. As you can see, appeasement will get you nowhere fast. But at least with you in the house, you have a better chance of bringing her back. She kicked you out so she could have her affair, moving back interferes with that. Everything she is saying to you is CLASSIC fogtalk of a WW who is in an addictive affair. She is saying nothing we don't hear on this forum every day.

I doubt she will stay out of the house if she leaves at all. That is most likely a threat to keep you out so she can carry on her affair in peace. If she has to carry on her affair from her mother's she will be very uncomfortable living with her mother. And you WANT her to be uncomfortable as possible becuase that will bring her back.

I am concerned now about you getting back into your house. What time are you going home? What are you going to do if she has locked you out?

Expect her to do and say ANYTHING to keep you out of hte house so you don't interfere with her affair. Don't fall for it! Go forward and interfere, interfere, interfere! The affair is the biggest threat to your marriage, not her anger!

I have an appt with another lawyer at 1. I should be home between 2 and 2:30.

I will find a way to get back in. I just hope she is still there and stands by her agreement to talk with full openeness and honesty, but I suspect the fogtalk will still be there.

I am still on here for about 15 more mins.

Oh, and thanks to all of you who have posted encouragements and tips here today. I really appreciate it.

If doing the right thing was easier, then everyone would do it. You are going to lose a ton of money in a divorce, so why isn't the stuff we are suggesting worth the investment. Don't let your WW take the kids. Here is the perfect answer to a self-entitled WW: "NO." Let your employer know your situation. Get a lawyer that will vigorously defend your interests. Get a PI to uncover the truth of the affair. Your MIL is typical, but hopefully if you are good friends with the BIL, he will be an ally. My SIL was my biggest ally. I talk with her nearly every day, and my WW avoided her sister. She got NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER. She went on to tell her that I was too good for WW, and that if she didn't want me, every woman in her office including SIL would scoop me up. SIL called WW stupid.

If you can't get inside, call a locksmith. It is your house afterall. I'm sure your address is on your driver's licence. Have him change the lock or get you another key.

Anything you do or say that directly confronts the affair addiction will be met with hostility.

What to do?

Tonight, assuming you get in, be still and listen. Just cause YOU won't talk divorce or separation doesn't mean you can't let her ramble on and on about it. Just listen and meet her need for communication without her even knowing it. I doubt she's going to give you much truth but she MAY if she thinks it will further or benefit her addiction. You could say "If I just knew the truth", let her infer that you are saying "If I knew, I could let you go". She'll also maybe believe telling the truth with be a good way to manipulate you back out of the house. Allow her to infer that. Use her wayward desires against her to get what you want. ONLY after that do you really speak and say "NO". If you are too strong up front, she'll just fight you tooth and nail.

Be still...charge neutral. You have no idea what tomorrow holds, but today, you are going to be the best individual, husband and father possible. Carry on each conversation calmly as if it may be your last with her and you want to remember it forever. You will make it.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W makes soem great points!!

As you bolster your position behind the scenes, you carry on yourself as the loving husband and father in front of her. You stay even keeled. Dont be sucked into arguments. Turn her foggy statements around, by asking questions.

Example...

WW: "I dont love you anymore. Cant you get that thru your thick head?"

You: "I hear that you feel like you dont love me anymore. I am sorry to hear that."

WW: "It isnt going to change. We should do this whole thing amicably."

You: "I understand that you believe things cannot change, right?"

WW: "Yes. I wish you would just leave."

You: "I understand that you thing that me leaving is for the best, correct?"

WW: "Yes. Why cant you jsut leave?"

You: "Honey. I am as committed to this marriage and to you and the kids as I was when we first married. I understand your feelings. I do hear you."

And on and on.

Do you see how you defuse the situation? You never get sucked into the discussion abotu divorce, separation, etc. You continually turn her statements back on her.

But you also stand firm on your stance of the marriage, the adultery, the recovery.

OK, here is the update:

Talked to another lawyer, again said nothing could be done to prevent her from taking the kids. Crap!!

Went home, no one was there. Wife already took the kids to her mom's. I called her and we talked a awhile, she agreed to meet me for dinner to talk more. Denied any PA going on, but admitted EA is there. She will not come back home if I am home. She says right now she will be happer divorced from me than married to me.

I can't stand being away from my kids and any possibilities of seeing my wife and working things out. She is still not willing to engage in working on our marriage and I can only hope that time (1 year in SC) works in my favor now. I am just not willing to engage in a nasty and expensive legal battle, I want to have control in negotiating this LSA together. I will find an apt. or something and she will come back home now. My taker has been running wild these last few weeks, I have to lock it up from here on out. All I have done is push her away and I cannot force my wife to do anything she does not want to do. If she says she is done, then all I can do is try to improve myself and see if she will eventually change her mind. And you know what, internally I feel at peace with this.

I did get her to agree to return the cell phone and write a NC letter to OM and I need to figure out how to enforce that. The next step is the laptop - still a sticking point.

Maybe at some point I can get her to talk to Steve Harley as a way to help me like someone mentioned in another thread.

I am not giving up, I am just stepping back to let God do some work in this. Right now I don't know what else to do except try to meet her ENs. Maybe you all will see it as giving up, I don't know. I am just mentally and physically exhausted from all this. I need to recharge. I want to live my life for my wife like Mortarman's thread on Huband's roles.

Tomorrow is another day, let's see what God has in store for us.

Of course she'll admit to the EA because that explains the exhorbinant phone calls and emails but she's counting on you not being able to prove a PA because THAT would be adultery in your state. She thinks that no one will EVER be able to prove the PA. You don't need to SEE them to prove it...just getting a hold of some suggestive emails or other documentation, then demonstrating alone time.

DON'T MOVE OUT. You are NOT driving her away by staying. I know it seems counterintuitive to make her mad and uncomfortable but appeasement will get you no where. If she wants to leave she can. You CAN get your kids at some point as YOU have just as much right to them as her. You will be in a much better position if you STAY in the family home. In fact, you should also stay in your marital bed. She will be mad, but your marriage can survive her anger...IT CAN NOT SURVIVE HER CONTINUED AFFAIR.

Also, with you out, what does she care about sending a NC letter and returning the cell phone. She can just call him on the home phone from now on...or better yet, just have him over for a "visit". Maybe he can even borrow some of the clothes of yours you've left behind. I know that's a bit mean...but you've got to get some balls and fight for your marriage, your family and yourself with a bit more zeal. You can't make this easy for her.

HOPE will not save your marriage. A solid PLAN like MB MAY. Either way, YOU will make it and you will have a notion that YOU did everything you possibly could to save your marriage.

Stop letting her manipulate you. Stay calm, stay put and fight. If SHE moves out...so be it, at least it makes HER uncomfortable and not YOU. When you get to see the kids it will be in YOUR HOME. When you fight for custody...you will be in a position of strength, not some crappy apartment without bedrooms for the kids and perhaps outside the kids school district.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I forget...is your wife a SAHM (Stay at home mother)...if you get HER to move out, she's likely to go out and get a job to help pay her expenses...all the better for YOUR custody petition.

p.p.s. - NEVER indicate you are getting advice her at MB....this is YOUR sanctuary. You may think you can teach her and fix this overnight...YOU CAN'T...this process takes time and you need unfettered access to this website. Don't tell her about it.

p.p.p.s. - Get a PI or do some serious snooping. Your Wayward Wife WILL NOT tell you the truth about her affair. I know it's really hard to not trust this person you've loved for so long...but you can't. She's not your wife right now...she's a corrupted adulterer alien right now. Trust NOTHING she says and only 50% of what you see her doing. It's all addiction behavior. She'll only be nice to you IF you enable her addiction. Expect it.

SCbetrayed, do you want to save your marriage or not? You are going to have to BUCK UP if you want to make it here. You are not going to save your marriage from an affair if you run crying at the first warning shot. She is huffing and puffing only to intimidate you from interfering with her affair. That is all this is, a ruse, a ploy. She is hoping to bully you out of the house so she can come back home and continue her affair. That is all this is. But the worst thing you can do is RUN.

If you stay there, she will see her little ploy did not work and will soon come home. She has no intention of forfeiting her home by living with her mother. That would be extremely uncomfortable. She wants to be home and will come home regardless.

Even if she did try to keep your kids from you, all you have to do is file a seperation agreement and you will have visitation. She can't keep your kids from you.

If you want to save your marriage, you must stand your ground. It would be a dreadful mistake to crumble like this and allow her to manipulate you. Stay home and I strongly suspect she will soon be back home.

You have very little chance of working this out or seeing your family if you don't live there. And in many states moving out is viewed as ABANDONMENT. And hopefully your clothes fit the OM, because I promise you, he WILL be in your house soon enough!

You are going to have to MAN UP, SC. You can't flee at the first sign of a little smoke and mirrors or you will never make it. Appeasing someone who is ****** bent on destroying your marriage will get you nothing, much less your marriage. STAY HOME!!

She can't prevent you from taking the kids either. If she doesn't come back by next weekend, pay her a visit and take the kids back.


Of course she doesn't admit the PA, she knows you don't have proof. She is manipulating you to get you to move back out. She doesn't want to live with her mom. Here is an idea - CUT HER OFF FINANCIALLY! She'll have no choice but to come home. DO NOT MOVE OUT!


Don't let her win. Think of it like this. Your wife that you love and the mother of your children is addicted to drugs. She doesn't want to give them up, but it is ruining you and your children's lives. You can't make her give them up, right? You have a responsibility to try and get your wife help for the sake of your family, and that includes putting yourself through ****** for a while. You can't get her off drugs by leaving her alone and hoping she stops. STAND UP AND DO WHAT IT RIGHT!


This is a start, but you need to be around to enforce this. Also, drop the laptop for now, and confiscate it when she is asleep or gone from the house.


This is important as well. You should probably talk to Steve Harley to reinforce you are doing the right thing and come up with a more specific plan.


We never said this was going to be easy. If doing the right thing were easy everyone would do it. You might need to get some IC and ADs to help get you through this. Talk to family and friends to help recharge your batteries. You are in for the fight of your life. It always gets harder before it gets easier, but you are on the right path. Don't cower in fear at your wife's anger. You will never break her affair by leaving her alone. You need to confront it head on. As for leaving it in God's hands, He directed you here, just like He did all of us. God gave me the strength to save my marriage, and I pledged to God that I would help others in my same situation. Think about this, if God didn't want you to stay at home and fight for your marriage, then why would several complete strangers come to your aid and be there for you at your darkest hour? I don't even know you, and will never meet you, but I am trying to help you save your marriage. Can't you see what God is telling you to do? He'll give you the strength to get through this, just like He gave all of us. You are just going to have to trust Him.

Quote: "She can take the kids blah blah blah she's there mother blah blah blah..." Well he** so can you. You are there father. She has no more rights to those children (probably less in her current state of mind) than you do. Don't forget this!!!

Listen to the wonderful advice given you and you will be fine. Stay calm and collected. Be the stable parent.

Why do you think she agreed to go out to dinner w/ you?

She was hoping to convince you that what you are doing is hopeless.

She was hoping to convince you to give up the house to her.

She played you, my friend.

Now that she got what she wanted do you think she'll agree to more dinners w/ you?

Get back in that house!

Only THIS time don't tell her you're going to do it before you do it!

You have EVERYTHING to gain by doing so, and NOTHING to loose.

~ Marsh

SC<

These folks are correct! Your first mission in all of this is to protect your interests and those of the children, while at the same time making things extremely uncomfortable for your wife in affair-land.

You talked about negotiating a LSA. You think that will help. No it wont!! It will help you get divorced! She wants you to help her, help her get what she wants.

If you want to save your marriage and your kids' family, you had best get out of the business of helping your wife in this. Sure, it is hard...but it will be much harder on her than you, if you follow the plans here.

Your wife is running from God. You are trying to obey Him. Guess who is going to have a harder time of it? Of course, your wife! But if you dont listen, if you dont "be the man," if you dont do everything possible to protect your family, then you also will not be obeying God.

You are in charge of your family. God will hold you responsible of what that family does and does not do...including your wife. You must do everything possible to make sure yoru wife gets back to her knees. You must also do whatever it takes to make sure that those kids are not in an environment of rebellion to God. That you NEVER, EVER condone, enable or normalize the rebellious life your wife is trying to head into. It should always be wrong in your kids' eyes. It should always be sin!

You cant physically stop your wife. But there are many things you CAN do to lead her back. And we can help you with that!

But you can take charge of those children and protect them. I knwo the attorneys said that she has every right to take them. Of course, she is their Mom. But you have every right to have them in your home, in the family home.

Look, SC law is very similar to Virginia's laws. You and I live in great states for combatting adultery and the like. And one of the first things to understand is that if this goes to court, the judge is going to look out for the "best interests of the children." And he has a list of what he is looking at. One of those things is "where do they live now?" Where have they been living? Who has been providiing for their care? Where is their schools? Where is their stuff?

If your wife gets the house, and you move out, then she has the advantage. A judge WILL NOT remove children from their current home unless there are safety issues!! He will jsut not upset the status quo!

So, when my wife wanted me to sign a LSA and me to move out, I had the good people here to stop me. So, my wife moved out into a one bedroom apartment, saw the kids maybe every ten days for an overnighter...and I got custody of the kids in the end!!

Whether or not the marriage makes it is a separate issue to the one confronting you as the father of those kids. God holds YOU responsible for their upbringing, not your wife. And you cannot take charge of and influence that which is not in your presence.

If your wife was a cocaine addict, would you let her take control of the house and the kids?? Of course not!!! Well, she is an addict, but she is addicted to a person right now. She is sinning...rebelling against God. do not leave your kids in that environment!!

As I said, I know she has rights to them. But so do you!! So, you stay in the house, you tell her that you expect equal time with the kids right now. And not one minute less than equal!! They way I did it, until we went to court, was mandate 4 day rotations. I ended up with more, since she worked. But I would never settle for less!!

For the court, this is key. As I said, they will not remove the kids from their home and from the person providing most of the care. Also, as Mr. W will tell you...for tax purposes, you want the kids with you most of the time, otherwise yoru wife gets the write-off.

On the marriage front, you need to get the good on her. In order to help expose. But also to get you ready for possible court fight. As in Virginia, you have the ability to not have to pay alimony because of adultery. By her leaving the house, you also have the ability to charge her with abandonment. I am not sure what it is in SC, but in Virginia, adultery is a misdemeanor.

You also shut down ALL money to her. All access to credit cards, bank accounts, etc. Open noew accounts and mvoe ALL assets to those accounts. She WILL try to take them, as my wife did!!

Go get your kids. Tell your wife that you are not doing divorce, that you will do everything you can to save your family. And that you expect while she works this out, that the kids will be with you, in the family home, most of the time (or at least half).

You are in a position of strength here, SC. You have God on your side (she doesnt). You have a plan (as outlined here), and she doesnt. She is fighting the odds (over 95% of all affair relationships end!!). You are in the house, and she isnt.

So, shore up your position. Get help from Steve and us. Tell your attorney what you expect!! Pray constantly.

Be the man.

P.S. - DON'T TELL/FOREWARN HER YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND AGAIN AND ARE MOVING BACK IN....JUST SHOW UP WITH SOME OR ALL OF YOUR THINGS IN HAND AND ENTER YOUR HOUSE. If she leaves, she leaves.

I talked to Steve H this morning. We have a plan that I can fight for my marriage even in separation.
I am looking into a PI for further investigation of a PA so I can have solid proof. Without that it's all speculation. Yes, in SC adultrey=no alimony.

I am tired of waffling back and forth, saying I am leaving, then staying, then leaving, then staying. I am a freaking wreck right now. As far as custody, I have to work and my kids would be in school/day care if I have them. Yes she may be using all this against me.

I have IC this afternoon as well and will discuss it further then.

So are you staying or leaving?

YOU NEED TO STAY, END OF STORY. NO MORE WAFFLING!

P.S. If you stay and cut her off financially, it is a 99% certainty that she will be back with the kids in your home with you. Isn't that what you want? She has manipulated you enough, it is time to fight fire with fire.

Have you read the Spying 101 thread???

If not, go to Just Found Out board and click on the top thread "For Newly Betrayed Spouses" by Longhorn. In Longhorn's signature line is a link. You can save a lot of money on PI's by getting the information yourself. You still have access to YOUR home...you may enter it at any time. Even if you separate...you can go in when she's not there and snoop. When you finish the Spying 101 thread you should also read through the entire "For Newly Betrayed Spouses" thread.

Mr. W

p.s. - One last flip-flop...move home....if you are going to separate and move out at the very very least, use your waywards compulsion to get you out to arrange a favorable LSA/custody arrangement. She'll likely agree to much more to get you out the door than otherwise. Go for a 4 day/4 day schedule which automatically rotates weekends OR go for every other Friday night, Saturday 11am through Sunday until 3 pm, and Wednesday evenings (I suggest this with the understanding you work full time). Try to maximize and NEVER accept the every other weekend and one night per week crap. You no longer HAVE to accept that. It will likely only happen IF you accept it. Whatever you negotiate will likely end up being the temporary custody order and then the final custody order. Don't give in and don't move out without a firm agreement NEGOTIATED by your attorney's and NOT YOU.

p.p.s. - Adultery only gets you out of alimony...not child support. The more custody you get the less you pay, the less you pay the more likely WW gets a job to make ends meet, then when she gets a job the income she makes is then factored into the child support and you end up paying even less. The decisions YOU make right now will effect YOU and the kids financially for YEARS.

It's good you got in with Steve. And I have no doubt he has you set up on a great plan, no matter whether your wife stays or goes!!!

Now, the main issues are getting the goods on the affair and protecting the kids. If you need help in findign ways to get the info you need to prove adultery, please ask!!

On the kids...you said that when you worked, the kdis would have to be in school/day care? Is this a problem?? I did it (and still do). And I am able to be with them more than my wife. I am able to keep them in a proper environment for most of their time.

Because I did all of this, when we went to court, I received most of the time with the kids. I have them from Thursday afternoon to Monday afternoon. I have all weekends (unless there is a 5th weekend in the month). We split Christmas and Thanksgivings. She gets one week in the Summer...so do I. Plus, I get all of their Spring Breaks.

I did an analysis on this the other day. Sure, for the most part...I have them 4 days a week, and she has them three. But with the added days (like Spring Break) as well as me havign them on 99% of the weekends, my wife only spends time with them on Mon-Tues-Wed nites, as they are in school and her at work.

So, I broke down the number of waking hours she could actually spend in their presence the next two years. And the numbers are staggering!! My wife, over the next two years, will spend no more than 5000 hours with our kids. I will spend over 15,000 waking hours with them (not in school, work, etc).

Now, let me ask yo ua question...who will have more influence over their upbringing and their lives? "Mrs. 5000 hours" or "Mr. 15,000 hours"?

SC, it is that simple. It is NOT easy! The best hope is that your wife removes her outer brain casing from her waste disposal unit and recommits to the family and the marriage. But short of that...it is YOU that will have to pick up the slack and protect this family from her!!

Do you want her to have the 15,000 plus hours with the kids...with the OM??? You want this loser OM to have more influence over yoru kids than you? You want your kids raised in an environment that promotes adultery, promotes destroying families? That is what she is building (or wants to build).

SC, this is about the kids right now. You are the ONLY sane parent they have. You must remain so. Do not back down, do not let up. Look at those kids everyday and swear that you will protect them and their family. That you will lead them.

God expects you to lead. Only you can!! You are now about to learn the difference between simple and easy. This whole process is incredibly simple. It is NOT easy!!

But that is why we are men! We were made to "die" for our wives and for our families. You need to sacrifice your wants, your needs, your desires...for the sake of yoru family and your kids. And yes, SC...even for your WW!!! God demands this!

We can help you. Steve will help you. But you will have to reach down and grab a pair and decide that this alien masquerading as yoru wife will not be allowed to destroy your family.

It's your call. Your kids are depending on you. Even your wife is depending on you (note: I didnt say WW!!!).

Are you up to the mission?

Wow, there is some GREAT advice here and a lot of support on this board. Thank God!!

SC, I am not qualified to add any advice or pointers to your thread, but I've been following it...and I've just noticed something: the title of your thread: "How to rebirth my marriage"

You started this thread looking for help in SAVING YOUR MARRIAGE. This board and your thread is FULL of people HELPING YOU SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE! Many have saved or are saving their own! Now GO OUT AND DO IT!!!

OK, PI is hired. As far as spying, I did read the thread on Spying 101 and I used the keylogger to get some info before she switched to the laptop, used phone lookups to get the cell phone numbers and such.

Thanks everyone for the "Man up, get your butt in gear, Just Do It" talk. My only worries are continuing to show weakness by not sticking to a decision. I feel like I am using the kids as pawns. Why can't this be saved even in separation?

I am starting to doubt if this can even be saved now and if I want to go through this. I am starting to feel like it is all slipping away.

1. You only show weakness when you give into your WW. If you flip-flop against your wife's wishes, that is not weakness.

2. Your WW is the one using your children as pawns to enable her affair, not you. You are trying to protect them.

3. Wondering whether or not you want to do this is perfectly natural. Doing the right thing isn't always easy (it rarely is). On the contrary, it was slipping away BEFORE you moved back in, now you are taking positive steps to get the marriage back.

But at what point do you just look at the situation ans say - She does not want anything to do with marriage any longer? Why fight it any longer? Yes I want to save this, but if she does not everything will be taken as me trying to control her.

SC,

You will know!! Trust me. The Lord will let you know. But until you go thru Plan A, and Plan B...you will not be prepared for Plan D (Divorce). You just wont.

You are too soon into this to know anything. That is why you must have a plan (Steve is helping you with that) and you must stick to it. It is the plan that will keep you moving in the right direction, no matter what your WW does.

Look, anything you do that is contrary to her desires right now will be perceived as trying to control her. Forget about it!!! She is in the fog. She hasnt a clue what she wants, or what she is talking about!! So, stop listening to an addict! As others have said...her anger is NOT the enemy of your marriage...the affair is!! Fight the affair!

She will not want to have anything to do with you as long as she is in the affair. Kill the affair and after a month of NC and withdrawal, you WILL notice positive changes in your WW. If she knew she wanted to divorce you, she would have already done it. She is addicted to her affair now, and can't find a way out. You must show her that way, no matter how much she goes kicking and screaming.

I think the obvious answer to this is: NOT when she's involved in an affair! And CERTAINLY not when you are HELPING her continue her affair.

You said it again: you want to save this. All the steps are here to do so.

You're not controlling her at all - you're not keeping HER in the house, you're keeping YOU & THE KIDS in the house. SOMEBODY'S got to look out for them!!

It's YOUR choice when you want to give up on your marriage.

You aren't responsible for how she takes anything you say or do. Being a fogged out WW there really isn't anything you can do that will please her right now.

But, there are things you can do that will cause her to RESPECT you.

Manning up will get you respect.

When a woman respects a man, she will find him sexy.

Sexy is good, no?

People have saved their marriages under worse circumstances than yours.

Chin up.

Acting strong will make you feel strong.

Feeling strong will chase your fears away.

~ Marsh

As I have heard many times on here...

What would you do if you werent afraid??

Going home again and saying "I changed my mind again I am staying home" will get the response "Make up your f'ing mind. You can't make a decision and stick to it. Me and the kids are outta here again and don't try to get me to come back again because I can't believe a word you say. I don't love you and never will. I already told you I am not sleeping with anyone, and no you cannot look at my laptop. See you in court." She will still seek separation and divorce like she is now, expcet in the meantime I won't be able to see her or the kids. More $$$ to lawyers.

Then she leaves and the PI I just hired cannot do anything. $$$ down the drain.

Right now I am in the pit of despair, if you cannot tell already.

Somebody send me a PM with a phone number and I will talk to anyone right now.

I'll be honest, I am afraid of a lot right now. Afraid she will not love me, afraid I will lose her, afraid no one else will love me.

Yup.

You're probably exactly right.

She will say all of that and probably a bunch more.

So what???

She's the one that upset the apple wagon. If you stumble a bit while you're trying to pick the apples back up, so what???

Shame on her, for what she's doing.

Not on you.



She will not be able to keep the kids from you forever. You will go to court and be sure she does not do this.

You will be in a better position inside the family home than you will outside of it.



She's gonna have to worry about $$$ too, once you cut her off.



Why can't he still do his work w/ her living in another place?



We know.

Having a plan will help you escape from that pit.

~ Marsh

Dont SAY anything...just do it!


Blah, blah, blah. They all SAY THAT. Means nothing!


Which means...she is sleeping with someone!


Why cant you see the kids??? What makes her able to keep them from you? If she can keep them from you, why cant you keep them from her? I am being sarcastic, SC. But what I am saying is she has NO right to keep the kids from you. And if you are out of the house, you wont see her either.


PI can follow her anywhere. Doesnt matter where she is at.


We know!! Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. It is why we are here for you!


SC, email me your phone number and I will call you when I get out of work. My email is [email]Mortar29@yahoo.com.[/email] I get off in three hours, if you can hang that long!

But in the short term, what you have been doing is arguing for your limitations. Stop that! God plus you is a majority!! You are getting yourself all wrapped up in "what ifs" and defeatism!

You have a plan. You have one of the best marriage counselors in the world (the Harleys) behind you. You are obeying God. You have South Carolina law behind you. You have those that have been thru this behind you. You have all of the statistics that say that her affair will end...and that your marriage isnt necessarily over.

As Steve Harley told me once, though...is that you cant shorten this journey, but you sure as heck can make it longer!

Your wife was right about one thing! You have to do the right thing, and stick to it. Leaving YOUR home is NOT the right thing. You are still a married man. You are still a father. it is your house and your kids' house. If she doesnt want to be a part of the family, then she can leave.

You talk about your wife as if she has some special right to keep the kids, that you dont have. Not so! You have as much right to those kids as her. So, bring them home. At the very least, tell her until things get worked out, that you expect a 4 day rotation schedule for the kids. Four for her, then four for you. It will keep one from getting the majority of the time AND it will allow you to show the judge that you can handle being Daddy by yourself.

I told you, my man...it aint easy!! But you are the man in this family. No one...not your wife, not Steve Harley, not us...can take your place. Only YOU can fulfill your responsibilities. Only YOU can save your family.

Do you have a choice? If your wife and kids were in a burnign building, would you go after them? Of course you would.

Well, SC...the house is on fire! You gonna run away...or run inside?!?!

We know, SC! We know! Lean on Jesus. He is in control!

All of this will pass.

You know, in the Army...heros werent guys that had no fear. heros were guys that got up out of the foxhole when they were scared to death, and did their duty anyway.

This sucks! I know it! But you have your mission.

Right now you have lost her.

Right now she doesn't love you.

Doesn't mean you can't win her back.

Doesn't mean she won't love you again.

I thought I'd never love my BH again, but guess what?

I was wrong.

I love him LOTS and LOTS now.



Just b/c your WW has chosen to have an A, doesn't mean that you are unlovable.

The A is about HER not you.

Please know this.

My A had nothing to do w/ my DH.

It was all about ME.

~ Marsh

She's in an affair....even though she calls it an EA, it IS an affair. I'm betting it's a PA too. Making this assumption, she's addicted. She could move to New Zealand and still need her fix of OM. Waywards act crazy and the PI will still be able to get intelligance on her eventually. Even if she leaves, you'll discover in communications about the kids that she's going out "with the girls" some night...PI then is put to work.

Do you know who OM is?

Is he married? Have you told his wife or significant other?

You may want to get a bit more intelligence prior to exposing. Did you try the voice recorder??? Actually, don't tell me here...maintain your deniability...just do it. Hide one in her car and/or in your home (see the attic idea I posted on the Spying 101 thread so you can plug it in and not rely on batteries).


YOU WILL MAKE IT.

Mr. Wondering

SC, you have no choice - you HAVE to participate in this.

A year from now, you HAVE to look back at the role you had in this.

Will she be at your side or will she be gone? We don't know.

Will you be proud of your actions, your role in this...or will you be kicking yourself, posting here to others saying "please don't do what I did..." THAT part you have COMPLETE CONTROL over.

I don't want to yell at you. I want to celebrate with you. Let's get there!!

SC, email me your phone number, and I'll give you a call. I can't get private messages to enable. My email is [email]jmwc95@yahoo.com.[/email]

The PMs don't work here.

~ Marsh

SC,

Do you hear Marsh??? She was where your wife is now. She KNOWS!! She has been in the middle of the fog.

Wanna know something, SC?? I bet Marsh will say I am dead on with this next statement...when she was in the fog, it was one of the loneliest places she has ever been. Even with an OM!!

SC, you feel alone, unlovable. It is now, that you turn to God. I am assuming you are a Christian (if not, please let me know!!!). If so, then I will post again with where yoru strength really lies.

But you must understand that deep down, your WW does nto feel good about herself. Right now, she projects that on you. You are the cause, you are the reason.

But if you follow the plans here, she will eventually realize it had nothing to do with SC...and everything to do with the selfishness of Mrs. SC.

Isnt that right, Marsh?

Hale yes!!

It was the darkest most horrible place I've ever been in.

I seriously lost my mind.

I almost lost everything...

Your WW needs you to be STRONG!

Don't let her destroy herself or your family w/o a fight!



Yes, that's right.

Your WW thinks that getting rid of you will make her happy.

She's delusional.

She needs you to not let her foggy state affect your thinking.

She needs a hero.

Will you be her hero?

~ Marsh

Please answer Mr. W's questions.

~ Marsh

SC,

I'm still offering to talk. Email me with your phone number and we can chat. You'll get through this.

I'll still give you a call if you'd like, but I'm going to be unavailable until about 7:30-8pm EST. I wish you the best.

Hey everyone,

First, thanks Mortarman for the talk tonight. It was just what I needed to get out of my own fog.

Jim, I'll e-mail you also and we can chat tomorrow or whenever you might be available.

Marsh, I appreciate your comments and insight as a FWW.

Everyone else, thanks also for your comments and ideas. Please keep kicking me in my tail because I need it.

Yes, I know who the OM is. I know where he lives, I know his phone numbers. WW already had PA with him once before.

OK, I am planning my next move to storm the gates so to speak. I need a plan to execute rather than flying by the seat of my pants. That's what I did this time and that's why I crumbled.

Please pray for me and my WW.

SC,

I can probably give you a call around 12pm EST if you email me your number. I have got to drive back from the plant to my office (about a 30 minute drive), and I'd rather help coach you through this than hear about how bad the Rams suck on sports talk radio.

SC,

Looking back over things could this really be a continuation of the PA with the OM from 3 years ago? It looks like your recovery over the last three 3 years was rocky...I'm betting your wife kept OM around on the side as "just friends"...which made recovery impossible. Good news, she may just be an run of the mill adulterer and not a serial cheater.

As far as this being an EA...NO WAY, the new lingerie you referred to in your first post along with a sex toy and the fact this is the same OM from a PA from three years ago is a dead give-away. Trust the observable facts...not what your wife tells you.

In case you didn't know....I am an attorney. Steve H. is trying to save your marriage, I want you to save your marriage BUT I also want you to protect your backside legally by getting into YOUR HOME. This marriage may or may not be savable in the end. If it's the latter, you need to maintain a strong position to protect your children from her, OM and her mental instability (ED) and immorality. This affair may take a hurculian effort to squash. If it's as I suspect, a continuation of the affair from 3 years ago, her rationalization and justifications are going to be difficult to surmount. She will likely feel she gave you a chance AND that OM and her are soulmates (more like assoulmates) because she/they tried so hard to be apart and give up the affair but just couldn't. Problem is...she likely NEVER gave him up.

Whatever you do...don't tell her about this place. You can't teach her right now and this is your support forum.

YOU will make it.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W...it is a continuation. After talking with SC last night, it appears that they did not handle the last time well. Kind of swept it under the rug! And it appears to have laid dormant at the very least, or continued undetected over this time.

Oh...and I love the "assoulmates." we need to add it to the lexicon.

Yes this is actually a continuation from 3 years ago. As MM said, we never dealt with it properly and she never gave him up. We need real recovery this time, and it starts with me taking the first real step, not these fake steps I have tried.

So, what's your plan of action?

What's your next step?

~ Marsh

SC,

I am probably going to leave a little earlier that expected. Shoot me your number if you want to talk. My email is on my profile.

I feel like I am banging my head against the wall with this whole exposure thing. WW asks why I told her mom. I told her it was because I needed to expose the A. She continues to deny, deny, deny, even though the clues are there, says I am making it what I want it to be.

For those of you who have been down this road, how did you not get so frustrated by continued denial. Do they eventially break down? I just want to say "prove to me there is nothing going on."

SC, relax. What did we talk about last night?? This is a PROCESS, right? This is gonna take time.

You need to get yourself to understand this. To not expect too much here. She is dancing the dance of the WS...right along the WS Handbook. Whether it is a PA or EA is immaterial to what you have to do (of course, you need to get the goods on the PA for legal action, though).

Remember, your path is clear. And it is the same, whether or not she stays. And whether or not you want to stay married to her.

So, stop worrying about what she says!! She hasnt a clue what she is talking about. If she came home drunk one night and started saying a bunch of stuff, would you take what she said as fact? Or would you just understand that she is drunk and spouting off?

Well, she is "drunk" and addicted right now. So, stop trying to make sense out of nonsense.

Active WS's lie. It's part of their nature. Don't expect anything else. If you are sure that the A is going on, you don't need to get your WS's confirmation that it is.

A possible answer to her denials: "I'm sorry, but behaviour X, Y, and Z, suggests to me that you are having an A. You may say otherwise, but my thoughts on this are are primarily based on what I know about you have done and what you continue to do, not on what you choose to tell me."

Mortarman,

I just got done talking with SC. He knows what he needs to do, and I'm sure he will be able to implement it. We'll call it nuclear WW defogging. I'm sure he'll be back here very soon telling us about how his WW completely flipped out.

SC,

I know it is difficult to laugh right now, but one of the things that I did that made me feel good was to talk to a mutual friend (who was on my side) and have a good laugh about all the stupid crap that came out of my WW's mouth. All the stupid rationalizations, justifications, excuses, and strange coincidences were all comical when you actually stepped back to look at things. Step back and have a laugh to yourself about the WW implosion.

P.S. DO NOT LET HER TAKE YOUR CHILDREN! TELL HER NO! GRAB HER LAPTOP AND CELLPHONE AND DO NOT GIVE THEM BACK!

Jim,

Good points!

Ha, Ha - Nuclear WW Defogging = NWWD from here on out.

I hear NWWD is quite painful.

I know we still havent found the NWWDs in Iraq yet!

Be careful with the "GRABBING" of stuff...you don't want to give her any real scenario with which to file a restraining order against you. She MAY make one up all by herself, that you can't control but no sense handing her a viable fact pattern on a silver platter.

Exposure, your presence in the home and a non-enabling demeanor will do far more than snatching away her computer. You can't control her...take the computer and she'll find another way to continue her adultery. You CAN ask for it, but the real goal is to get either her or OM to end the affair by making it the more difficult painful choice.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W makes some great points!!

She will no doubtedly make false accusations against you to get you out of the house.

Or, she will cry to the judge that she "had to move out" because you were acting "scarey" and "irrational."

Make sure all of your movements are measured and rational. Make sure they are confined to what we talked about. Which means, anything you do should be to bolster and protect the family. The family home, the family finances, the kids.

As I said, if she chooses to leave the family, then she can go. But, you and the kids choose to stay in the family. Thus, anything you do to promote, expand, protect, etc the family, if done reasonably...will be seen by the judge as reasonable.

I didn't mean for him to rip it out of her hands, I just want him to find it and have it disappear from where his WW was keeping it. Hopefully, it will have incriminating evidence on it that proves a PA that can be used against her. At least he should get SpectorPro put on it so he can monitor her communications with OM. Again, since he lives in SC, this will help him financially in any divorce. When I found a calling card in my WW's purse, I just ripped it up, and threw it away. My WW knows if she tries anything, I'll find it.

Consider acquiring a voice activated digital recorder and carrying it in your pocket or having it available to put in your pocket if things get heated.

When the lightbulb goes off in her head that she can get you out by calling the cops and acting scared and intimidated there is often a window of opportunity between when she calls the cops after initiating a huge fight and the time the cops arrive. In that time period, with a recorder in hand you will likely be able to document that it's a ploy to get you out of the house by asking the right questions. She will feel empowered and her adreneline/enthusiasm will have her saying all sorts of stuff against her interest. BTW, it's not illegal in any state for you to secretly recorder a face to face conversation YOU are participating in.

You: "I didn't touch you and you are afraid of me...why are you calling the cops"

WW: "To get you out...you piece of crap, you're trying to control me by not allowing me to have an affair"

You: "But I'm not threatening you"

WW: "Well, that's not what I'll be telling the police when they get here"

You: "So you are going to just lie...to make me leave"

WW: "Yes"

Filing a false police report is ILLEGAL. Also, kicking Dad out, especially in front of the children on false charges will not bode well for her in future custody hearings. Take the opportunity if it presents itself with vigor. Be prepared and VERY calm AND do as the cops direct....do not indicate you have the recording until later, allow her to actually file charges and pursue the restraining order before you reveal the recorded conversation.

Mr. Wondering

Forgot to mention

HOPEFULLY, THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN

Only preparing you for a very common wayward spouse play.

Mr. W

I know what you meant Jim...but SC might not have...I was just clarifying...no worries.

One thing about Jim's idea of snagging the laptop...I'm no computer whiz but a good computer hacker can somehow access everything ever done on that computer even if it's previously been deleted. If the computer disappears perhaps someone could do some diagnostics on the harddrive. You may even be able to return it shortly thereafter.

Mr. Wondering

He has hired a PI. I suppose the PI could do that for him.

I know a very nice registry hack for recovering deleted emails if they happen to use Outlook as their email client. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Let me know if you need it. <<nudge>> <<nudge>> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yep, that is the plan for the PI to get anything I need off the laptop. That is of course if I am unable to get her to show me herself.

Good points on just taking things away and the voice recorder. I will especially need that for when I go back home.

She called me again today asking if I setup the appt with the lawyer - I said no and told her there are more things to talk about. I am dragging my feet here.

Promote the family, promote the family.........

WTF - I use outlook on my personal PC that WW also used for some time and ofetn deleted e-mails she sent. How about getting me that registry hack?

Yeah, and I'm sure she wants you to pay for the whole thing. Why in your right mind would you pay money to tear apart your family? She's got another thing coming. SC, can you feel that control coming back, coursing through your veins? You are about to stand up to your wife. You are powerful. Don't let that power corrupt you, but enjoy that feeling that you haven't felt in so long.

Here you go! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Start the Registry Editor (Regedt32.exe)

Navigate to the following key in the registry:
[color:"black"] HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Exchange\Client\Options [/color]

On the Edit menu, click Add Value and add the following registy item:

Name: DumpsterAlwaysOn
Data Type: DWORD
Data Value: 1

exit the registry editor.

You should now have activated a new item in the tool menu. recover deleted items. It should work for all your Outlook folders.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

wtf,

This is a good snooping tip.

Have you already put it in the spying 101 thread with a little explanation? If not, it would be appreciated by many for years to come, I presume, plus it's easier for you to find if you need to refer another poster to it yourself...instead of explaining it again and again.

I always link to "Spying 101" off Longhorn's signature line. I don't necessarily want it in my sig lines as too many WS's that show up or lurk may find it too easily that way. I figure the fog is good for something.

Thanks,
Mr. Wondering

WTF, does that work to recover deleted items *before* turning on the registry setting?

It works as long as the OS has not overwritten the data and / or a "policy" has been set for how long the data is allowed to exist for. This can vary greatly depending on the working environment.

The short answer is: Yes!

OK everyone, after a night of prayer and reading the Bible and others posts here I now have a plan.

-God will not tell me to get a divorce
-In the spirit of Matthew 18:15-17, ask members of our church to meet with WW and I.
-Go home because God gave me headship of the home, because I am the wife's leader, because I am responsible to God for what happens or does not happen in the home
-Set boundaries - affairs are unacceptable, other people cannot meet the top emotional needs of my W (not WW), I am not to blame for her poor choice
-Continue exposure
-Protect the family if WW leaves again (this is tough one)
-Cut off financially if necessary
-Do everything to create a loving environment at home, eliminate LBs (ranked D, DJ, SD, IB, AO, AB by her), meet her top 3 ENs.
-Be the husband God has called me to be (as identified in MMs post on husband/wife roles)
-Be thinking of plan B

Thoughts and comments appreciated.

Good plan, start it today!

I just want you to brace yourself. You are walking into a firestorm. Expect the worst initially (it will probably be worse that you can even imagine), but stay strong and don't let it get you off course. Keep God in your life, and He will help you weather the storm. Expose to ANYONE, that would be in a position to put pressure on the affair (family, friends, churchmembers, OM's family, etc.). Don't be afraid to expose because you are embarrassed. People will have a new found respect for you for standing up to protect your family. Don't be afraid to ask others for help. You will need as much help as you can get. It will let you know who your true friends are. Read up on Plan A every day. You need to meet her EN and avoid LB as much as possible. Execute the best plan A possible. And remember, don't forget to do stuff for YOU. You need to continue to live your life. It is easy to become consumed with your problems, but you need some time to take a break every now and then. Be strong and keep us updated. Feel free to give me a call ANY time.

Hey Mr. Wondering,

From a legal perspective, what could be some implications of the financial cutoff. Could/Would this be viewed in a negative light?

Thanks.

I emailed Mr. W with your question, so hopefully he will get you a quick response to your question. I will tell you what I know. I discussed that option with my lawyer, and he said that it would be looked at slightly unfavorably, but not nearly as bad as taking the kids to another state or infidelity. If you told the judge your reason for cutting her off financially was so that she couldn't take the kids and run, I doubt it would be held against you.

Remember...I'm a tax attorney NOT a divorce attorney.

I agree with Jim's assesment above but I think you should do it carefully. MM actually has more knowledge than I on this subject.

Cancelling all joint cards, giving her notice that you have done it afterwards (only to insure she doesn't have some dramatic story to tell in court about how her cards were all declined while she was trying to buy food for the kids at the grocery store or some other story), offering some fundage like cash on the kitchen table at your home as you want to always be thoughtful of your OBLIGATION to support the kids.

Any cards she has in her own name you can't cancel.

If you have a joint bank account then it is often advised to go in a withdraw much of it. If there are 5 people in your family you withdraw 4/5ths to protect you and kids from her adulterous demeanor. Might not be a bad idea to meet with your lawyer first before doing any of this, because then you will have the added excuse that you did it after discussion and suggestion of an attorney.

Just some thoughts.

Also, in your list above you said "be considering Plan B". I think you are way to earlier in this to be considering it. Plan B is NOT a punishment or done vindictively. Anyway, there is plenty of time to learn about Plan B, just worry about Plan A for now.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W is correct. On all counts.

SC, while holding back and protecting financial assets can be used against you, it probably wont if you do as Mr. W suggested.

Here is an example of how to do it...

Let's say your paycheck is normally direct deposited into the family account. Well, you go to HR at work and change the deposit to an account you open today, just in your name, at the same bank. Then, as you get deposits, you only transfer into the family account what is needed...as needed. She says "I need to go buy groceries for the house." Then, you get online and transfer $200 so she has the funds to do so. She needs gas??? You hand her a $20 bill...or transfer $20 into the main account.

All of this is predicated on her still being in the house with you. If she has left, then give her nothing!!

My wife's attorney tried to paint me as not supporting the kids when I cut off all money to my wife when she moved out. But, because I had them most of the time, my response in court was "hey, they were with me most of the time...she should have been paying me child support." I also mentioned that it was my wife that had left the family home...that the $$$s were staying with the family and I was supporting the kids. I just wasnt supporting her abandonment of the family, marriage and kids.

That was good enough for the judge!

This is why I told you that you need to have those kids at least half the time right now. The judge in my case, actually had me submit to him the calendar I had been keeping (a part of my journal) that outlined the exact days/hours that I had the kids and my wife had the kids. I had proven with that calnedar that the kdis were with me the most!!

If not, if there is no way to get them most of the time (you really do need to get them with you most of the time, though!!), then you could provide a stipend into the account for her to draw from as child support for when the kids are with her.

What you dont want is her to have unfettered access to the family finances!!

Ugh, I just talked to her and she is willing to talk to Steve Harley if I let her stay in the house (talk about dangling a carrot) and only after signing LSA. I asked her to not make any commitment to working on the marriage, just talk to him and see what he has to say and look at the MB principles.

She also gave me down the road about leaving/staying and it impacting the kids. Says she doesn't fell like her feelings can change, especially after my behavior the last few weeks. We will talk more tonight.

I don't know if I can take it any more. I really think talking to Steve will be helpful for her and get her thinking, but at the expense of me not being at home? Neither of these were part of my plan, but am I willing to adjust the plan? I know what everyone will say, but what do I want to do?

You don't sign anything. You stay in the house. You don't negotiate with terrorists. You want to preserve your marriage, right? Follow your original plan. She wants you to move back out, and she will tell Steve Harley how your marriage can't be saved. Stay the course!

MC won't work if the A is on going.

She'll agree to almost anything in order to get what SHE wants.

I hope you didn't tell her you are thinking about moving back in the house.

I hope she doesn't find this thread.

~ Marsh

I feel like techie in his thread. I hear what everyone says but can it apply to me.

yes, she says she has no interest in the marriage. Do I think SH can help her? Absolutley. Will she take it serious? I have no idea, probably not the way she talks. But SH will tell her the same as he told me, would she be willing to just research the principles, not make a commitment to work on the marriage. Should I take the chance that she will bite into what he says?

Not at the risk of ruining your plan. Your plan which will be carried out over the next several months has a much better chance of working that a 50 minute call to someone she has no intention of listening to and just is using to manipulate you into getting what she wants.

Marsh,

She doesn't know about this site. I did give an indication I want to go back home. Still no hard proof of an A, just clues that of course she denies.

I guess I am looking at a child custody battle now?

You'd be looking at that if you didn't implement this plan, and you have a better chance of winning a child custody battle if you go through with your plan.

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

Follow your original plan.

First things first.

Get back in that house.

Collect intel about the A>

Expose the A.

Secure your finances, and your children'r future.

Apply pain and discomfort on your WW continuing her A.

Draw her back to your home.

then ask her to speak to Dr. Harley

PLEASE don't change your plans.

~ Marsh

I talked with him again. He's going to follow the plan. He's not looking forward to the plan, but he knows it has to be done. I don't blame him. No one likes walking into a firestorm. It is emotionally taxing and scary. But divorce and breaking up your family is more taxing and scarier. We are praying for you SC

SC,

Dont leave your house!!!!!!!!!
She is negotiating with you to help end the marriage!
All WSs do this. she will be willing to "listen" to Steve if that means you will agree to sign the LSa and leave. Dont you do it!

Stand by your boundaries. Protect your family and marriage. You are being sucked in again by her.

Her is what will happen with Steve if she talks to him one time. Nothing! She will still move forward, still pursue this mess.

The reason for her to talk to Steve is twofold. First, to determine the situation. And second, for him to plant seeds in her head. it will take time for those seeds to blossom.

But, Steve isnt going to wave a magic wand and your wife be ready to jump back in and stop this move toward separation/divorce.

Ask yourself this question...why did she make this move (agreeing to talk to steve if she can stay and if you sign LSA)??? I know the answer...do you??

She can come home any time she wants, there is nothing stopping her. Signing a LSA will only harm your position, so you don't want to do that. You have no reason to do so and cooperating will only harm you. If she is serious about saving your marriage by counseling with SH, then she will do it without strings. But, she ain't serious. She is just dangling a carrot to con you into giving her what she wants.


That is really cute coming from a fogged out WW who is an affair and has thrown her childrens daddy out of the house. She is not exactly QUALIFIED to discuss what is in the childrens best interest when her every action is designed to facilitate her sleazy affair and destroy your marriage. PLEASE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Do you understand that you are talking to the EXACT equivalent of a falling down drunk? I don't think you get that, SC. She is so fogged out that she is saying insane, nutty things. Nor does she have any idea how she will even feel TOMORROW, much less far into the future. Pay her babblings NO MIND.


What do you want to do? Hopefully you "want" to save your marriage and ignore all this, because you will LOSE if you go along with a scheme devised by a WW who is he11bent on destroying your marriage. There are no adjustments needed in your plan. Don't leave the house and don't sign a LSA. If she wants to work on saving your marriage, she will call up SH herself.

You aren't going to get far if you keep allowing her to throw you off your gameplan. This is just more of the same: SMOKE AND MIRRORS designed to SPOOK you off the battle field so you will stop interfering with her affair. BOO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Also, SC...please understand...you are not unique. Your wife is not unique. There have been hundreds of people on this board in the EXACT same situation as you two. And they all doubted the plan. They all thought their spouse was different, or their situation was different.

They werent. Yours isnt!

This is actually a good thing that she is trying to negotiate! I say that because she is beginning to feel hemmed in. She knows she is going to have to leave if you dont. And find a place. And get money. And expensive lawyer battles...blah, blah, blah.

In order for her to do what she thinks she wants, she has to get you out and to agreeto all of this.

Refuse!

As a matter of fact, SC. You had best get back into that house tonight. I guarantee the next move she makes, after you tell her "no" to the LSA, is that she will petition thru an attorney for child support, etc because you have abandoned the marriage and family.

Count on it! I know that isnt the truth. But the judge doesnt know that!

Get in there tonight. Dont say anything...just go!

Agree with everyone above.

Also...maybe change your screen name to something a little less obvious just in case she takes a peek in here in the future to see if maybe you are posting. "SCbetrayed" may be a pretty obvious name if you are in S. Carolina. You don't have to reregister, just change the name and all your posts will self-adjust to the new name.

May I suggest a name for you?? How about "ROCKY" as in Rocky Balboa.

Mr. Wondering

Good idea MrW.

I find myself with on more question: If an A was not going on and she still wanted to end the marriage would I do these same things? I only see plan A and B mentioned in the context of infidelity.

I feel like a fogged out BS right now.

Praying for strength.....

Didn't like the Rocky idea, eh?...no worries.

To answer your question: it is irrelevant. It doesn't make any difference except there would be no affair to contend with.

However, it's irrelevant to your situation because your wife is admittedly having at the very least an EA with the same guy she had a PA with 3 years ago. IT NEVER ENDED. You never recovered from it and it continues. She has failed to repent and make amends and still stands outside of God's grace. Besides she has no biblical grounds for divorce.

Further, even if she weren't having an affair, moving out would still jeopardize your custody position. YOU will be portrayed as the abandoning one by her attorney.

Consider this...does the nature of her desire for divorce change the fact that you refuse to be relegated to a every other weekend and one week night a week father???

You will make it.

Mr. Wondering

Here is how I envision the conversation:

Me: I am tired of the lies, the my indecision, and my controlling behavior. I want to see if we have what it takes to save our marriage. I am not making a committment to do it, just to see what it would take and if we have what it takes.
I am home. If you need to leave then do so, I will let you. You can go wherever, even to OMs house if you choose. I will still be able to have time with the kids because we both are entitled to that. I want you to be serious about any MC, not becuase I am controlling you to do it.

WW: see ya

Me: I could not live with myself knowing I did not try to stand for our marriage.

Her: I cannot live with you period. You are pathetic.

Me: I hear you say you cannot live with me. That breaks my heart.

Her: Your word means nothing to me. You have gone against it so many times lately.

Me: I am sorry my words mean nothing to you. I am doing what I feel is the right thing to do, what God would have me do. That is all that matters to me. I am trying to establish boundaries for the first time. I will not stand for a continued EA with OM.

Her: There is nothing going on, I already told you. You will think whatever you want to think.

Me: I am sorry you don't want to work on the marriage. I will call you to arrange time with the kids.

OK, should I mention my intent to cut off financial support to the bare necessities? Is there any reason to mention any other points of my plan I outlined above?

Thanks.

I would not mention your intent to cut off financial support. Then there is the risk that she might beat you to the bank or run up the charge cards.

I do think an after the fact notification when you are DONE cutting off financial support would be good. She gets to learn that leaving the marriage means leaving behind marital assets....e.g. consequences.

Here is how I envision the conversation:

Me: I have done alot of thinking and have decided it is a mistake for me to move out. This is my home and I have absolutely no reason to leave so I will be staying. This is our childrens home and they need their father. They should not be dragged from their home to accommodate your affair. I will also seek primary custody of the children if you do not bring them home. This should not be difficult given your affair, your lack of a residence and lack of finances. In this state a mother cannot keep children from their father; the courts frown on that. This is their home and this is where they belong.

I love them and I love you and am not willing to give up on our family, especially for your affair.

So, I will stay here and am prepared to work on our marriage when you are ready. I will not discuss or participate in any seperation schemes. I also will not finance your seperation if you choose to do so. You will have to get a job and finance this yourself.



WW: see ya

Me: silence

Her: I cannot live with you period. You are pathetic.

Me: Yes, I have been pathetic. But I am firm in my resolve now and I am here to take care of my family

Her: Your word means nothing to me. You have gone against it so many times lately.

Me: Understand. But I feel very resolved that I am doing the right thing now.

Her: There is nothing going on, I already told you. You will think whatever you want to think.

Me: That is correct.

She needs to be told that you will be cutting off financial support and will not finance her affair. But as bitbucket said, PROTECT YOUR FINANCES NOW before you say this.

And most importantly, Eph, GET BACK IN THAT HOUSE!! Don't even take another foolish chance like that. We have others here who left the house for a few days and had to get a COURT ORDER to get back in. Others found the locks changed or the OM in their bed. Many courts view this as ABANDONMENT. IT IS A TERRIBLE MISTAKE TO LEAVE!

YOU: Hi Honey, I'm home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(Keep it sweet and simple. She has the choice to leave the home and live else where. You don't need to say you're "letting her leave.")



Good.



YOU: I hear that you believe I'm pathetic and that you can't live w/ me. If I were a cheater, I'd have a hard time living w/ me too.

(Don't tell her what she says breaks your heart. She'd be happy to know she has that much power over you. Better to reverse babble w/ her.)



You: I hear that you choose not believe my words, fair enough...then believe my actions. I'm your husband, and father of our children, I'm here b/c it is the RIGHT thing to do. You are free to keep choosing the WRONG thing by having the A.



You: I'm sorry you still feel the need to lie and cheat. I'll call you to arrange time w/ the kids.

Wow, thanks ML. I wish I could be so eloquent with my words.

I plan to get that voice recorder before I have this conversation; for documentation purposes and hopefully so ya'll can help me see through the WW fog.

I am out of here for now.

So, are you back in the house yet???

If you are not home perhaps tonight would be the perfect time. She can't run off and file a petition for divorce until, at the very least, monday.

However, the absolute worst thing you could do is cut yourself off from your support group. I hope you haven't disappeared.

Mr. Wondering

Has anyone talked w/ him?

Anybody know what's going on?

~ Marsh

I have his number. I could give him a call. I expect that he is at home and doesn't want to post on the forum in front of his WW.

Ahhh, OK, that makes sense.

I just wish we had an update.

~ Marsh

I know, I've been checking my computer like every hour.

Anybody hear anything?

~ Marsh

too much going on now. Will post more details ASAP.

Keep us updated and we can help you make adjustments to your plan as necessary. Hope you are doing alright.

I talked with my man today, and he is back in the house with his WW and the kids. Needless to say, WW was not happy. He could not locate the laptop or the cellphone. WW was supposed to go visit a psychiatrist today, but is currently at OM's house. My man told me to tell you that a storm is brewing tonight when she gets home.

He said he is afraid that she may be on to this website, so he is going to lay low a little bit, and keep us informed as necessary. I think he sounds a lot better. He is much more calm and firm in his resolve. Keep up the good work.

Way to go helping him and all JMWC95!!

I hope that he will resolve to stay in his home and call for an emergency custody hearing if WW tries to remove kids or goes to stay with OM. He should be documenting all of this in case this goes to court.

Oh, someone is documenting it, alright.

Eph,

If you fear your wife is reading here do not hesitate to email me for some private advice at the email address below.

Mr. Wondering

Post deleted by jmwc95

Deleted by Marsh

I'll post the whole story soon when I have time to sit down and do it.

Ok, cool, cuz we all want to know what's happening.

So, the only reason you know about where she's going right now is b/c of the PI?

She doesn't know YOU know, right?

Hang tough.

Jim's right, we are all praying for you.

~ Marsh

He knows because of the PI. She does not know about the PI. Considering she stopped for a "pit stop" at OM's house, and he spent the day with her afterwards, I have a feeling she will find out about the PI later tonight (hence Hurricane Eph).

Thanks, Jim.

I'll be watching the weather reports for that hurricane tonight.

~ Marsh

So should I wait to get all the details from teh PI tomorrow or just start this "battle" tonight? I want to have my ducks in a row prior to this final exposure.

You've waited THIS long, might as well get your ducks in a row.

~ Marsh

Three cheers for
Mr. Wondering

Posts were deleted...your turn Mr. W.

~ Marsh

OK, so I have evidence of an EA as mentioned above. Today is do or die time. Just trying to figure out how to expose and not give up my source in the event I still need it. Somthing like "I got a tip that OM was with you..."

My heart is pounding out of my chest today.

You don't have to give a source. Just tell her you know. She knows she was with him, so you don't have to prove it to her. Was there any kissing or anything like that? How long were they at his place before they left? If there was affection and they were in his house for a while, that is proof of a PA as well.

Wait a minute, is it starting to get dark outside? Is that the wind picking up? I think a storm is a brewin'.

Okay...so you expose. You catch her in a lie, and you tell her you know what she really did yesterday. Is that going to change anything? Would it be more beneficial to you and the OMW to wait until you have even more damaging evidence? But whatever you decide, NEVER reveal your source.

I don't think there is an OMW in this case. His WW has been insisting that he moves out and that no A has been occuring. He is now confronting her and letting her know that he knows. Also, SC is a state that is very hard on adultery if he does get divorced.

This is exactly what I was thinking...

EXPOSURE is when you EXPOSE the A to other people.

What you're doing is CONFRONTING her...

What do you hope to gain from it?

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, I'm just wondering if you stand more of a chance of losing something rather then gaining something.

I say, keep spying till you can prove the PA...keep your cards close to your chest and continue to Plan A her.

It doesn't mean you can't tell her you KNOW she's having an A...I just wouldn't show her my proof.

~ Marsh

You are absolutely right, Marsh. "Confront" is the correct term.

Hold tight on confronting her. You need to prove the affair so that you are covered under SC law. A lot of money is riding on you proving that (alimony, etc).

You have enough evidence to confront her. Now, get enough evidence to lock your legal position.

Once you have that all together...then you can confront and watch the cockroaches run for darkness!! With no where to run!

I hope he saw your post, MM..

Maybe someone could give him a call?

~ Marsh

Good advice MM. I don't know anything about SC law, but I figure four aces are better than one. If jmwc95 is still around here, maybe he can contact EPH

Just back from lunch. I hear about confronting, and I agree to some extent, but I see it as more exposure. She has blown off and denied and explained away my claims that I suspect something is going on.

As jmwc95 said, there is no OMW.

She has admitted to a PA with this guy 3 years ago to her mother, MC, and Eph, so I would assume he has sufficient legal standing based on the new info he has. What do you guys think?

If you confront her now without any positive evidence of a physical affair, wouldn't this cause her to become more secretive, and drive the whole A so far underground that more evidence would be harder to obtain?

I think the law says since we have hd SF since the previous PA it is considered forgiven. Even I told her that I forgave her after we worked through some of that before.

Eph,

Was there kissing or any other intimate contact between WW and OM yesterday? I am saying that the burden of proof for a PA is less considering she admitted to previously having a PA with the OM. If she is seen kissing and/or holding hand of OM, I think the court will come to the conclusion that a PA is ongoing based on previous history.

Yes, but, SHE knows she's having the A, and YOU know she's having the A...

You don't need to prove it to her.

All it would take is a LOOK to convince her you KNOW what she's doing.

What do you hope you'll gain by showing her your proof?

It will cause her to go further under ground and you might not get the chance to prove the PA part of it.

I think it's more to your advantage if she wonders if you have proof, but doesn't know for sure.

~ Marsh

Yes, why not wait till you can prove the PA?

Catch them kissing or her spending the night w/ him....

Hold your cards for now.

~ Marsh

How are things going inside the house?

Are you surprised she's staying put?

What did she say when you moved back in?

Any chance of meeting any of her ENs, yet?

~ Marsh

Here is the latest:

Earlier in the week I was just home to take care of the kids while she went to the Dr. in Atlanta (and spent day with OM). Jim and I had a misunderstanding.

This week I have had chances to meet her ENs, mainly those of affection by playing with her hair, neck/back/shoulder rubs, etc. COnversations have mostly been about the kids, her day, my day, memories, things I have learned about myself. I try to keep away from talking M.

Last night I asked why she was still seeing OM. She denied it, and I pressed some still without revealing my source. She finally admitted to a story about taking the cell phone back to OM. I asked if OM went with her to Atlanta and she denied that. I just told her that I believe there is more going on that she is letting on, and she said I could think whatever I wanted. I tried to not let this be confrontational. more in line with exposure by getting her to admit to something.

I have been afraid to try to go back home after the last failure and today I was supposed to sign a lease on an apartment. My head and my heart were screaming not to do that, so I went home instead and I am here now. WW was at a Christmas party at her mom's, and I called her to tell her I could not leave, that I could not live with that wrong decision and I was ashamed that I had even left to begin with, and I was staying home. Of course as I thought my manhood, my word, my whole existence were called into question. I just said I was resolved to do the right thing now and all other agreements were null and void because they were the wrong thing to do, especially in the light of having physical proof that she is still seeing the OM. I even told her I would not finance any separation or divorce proceedings.

She is furious, told me she hated me, told me she never wanted to see me again. I just said we need to arrange a time for me to pick up the kids, and she threw out I would have to talk to my attorney about that so she is threating to keep them away from me.

She is on the way home to pick up stuff, clothes, etc to take back with her. I guess we will have a "discussion" when she gets here.

I feel like a wreck now. I feel like this was the only right decision to be made, but it also feels wrong. To hear her say she hated me was like cutting my heart out. I don't know right now how anything good can come out of this. To her, our marriage is over. Now I am starting to feel like that as well. But I know that I can go on, I can keep learning about myself and improving myself, and I don't need her to justify my existence in life - I have God for that. For the first time I feel like I can let her go.

I will keep you all updated. Thanks for the words of advice so far.

The old marriage IS over. You are fighting for a chance at a new one. Now that you are home...stay there. You are disrupting the addiction and she is resisting and attempting to manipulate you with everything in her arsenal (especially stuff that's worked before). She wants you to accept it's over so she can go back to fantasy land. Reality ain't easy for the wayward.

Also, trying to get them to admit things feels like an accomplishment in honesty for the BS. It's not. They will only be honest when it serves the addiction. She will be honest with you just enough to manipulate you. She was trying to give you a sense of security so she could twist the knife harder. You weren't making any progress trying to be nice and expect the same from her. Moving home...IS progress and I commend you for doing it...NOW stick with this decision and see it through.

Conflict is good. It's better than withdrawal. With you home she is incurring consequences for her choices and is focused on you and your actions. It's real. Don't believe the fantasy...it's NOT real. Her hatred of you is a lie, it's part of her distorted mind right now. You must stay strong and believe in your convictions, your vows, your family.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

p.s.- you said for the first time you can let her go. THAT is progress. When you can detach from the desparation of being the BS and desparately trying to fix things you will become much more able to win this fight. You just stick to being the best husband, father and individual YOU can be and let God sort out the rest. Do what you can do and accept what can not control. Accept uncertainty.

Eph, you can't give up so easily. Just because she says BOO, does not mean you should abandon your plan. You are never going to win your wife and family from this affair if you run crying from the room every time your W raises her voice at you.

Your goal is SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, not to avoid making your W angry at you. You CANNOT AVOID MAKING your wife angry right now unless you sit back, do nothing and allow her to destroy your marriage.

So, you are going to have to MAN UP here, friend or you are not going to make it. You are not going to die if she gets mad and throws a tantrum. She is angry for ALL THE RIGHT REASONS, because you are INTERFERING IN HER AFFAIR!!

THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE!

If you can't stand a little anger from your fogged out wife, then you need to just pack it in right now and leave, because you won't have the NADS to save your marriage!

Exposure means exposing to someone who does not know. She already KNOWS about her own affair so you can't expose to her.

Rather than playing cat and mouse games that achieve nothing, why don't you move past the 'did you or didn't you?' and just tell her what you KNOW?

Mr W and ML,

Thanks for checking in tonight. It's hard to stay strong when she is trying her hardest to tear me down. It has worked before but I am resolved that it will not work this time. Fog or not, her words still hurt like heck. To hear the person who once said "I love you" now say "I hate you" is one of the most painful things I have been through.

I know I have made the right decision now, and I am probably lucky I still had the chance to get home.

Also, I completed the gaps in my journal from when I was away, showing that I spent significant time with the kids and her so that she cannot some back and say I abandoned them.

moving home = right choice
staying home = right choice

Her taking off = bad/wrong choice
Her absconding with kids = bad/wrong choice
Her having affair = big wrong choice

YOU only control YOUR choices. Keep making the right ones and you'll be proud of yourself however this ends up.

I know it's tough hearing those words. Eventually, IF she pulls herself out of this, she will regret those words and apologize for them. She's suffering the effects of an addiction. If she were on crack cocaine you'd be hearing the exact same things if you were attempting to interfere with that addiction. She's hopefully not herself right now. If she is herself than she's essentially lost to you and the family forever. Time will tell...but either way...YOU will make it.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - get yourself a pitbull attorney and protect your legal rights. Protect your families finances as well...don't allow her to take you all down to financial ruin. Eventually, if and when you bust up the affair the more resolute and decisive you are the more attracted to you your wife will end up being. READ, READ...and READ some more. Get educated on the dynamics involved to help you cope.

Eph,

Did she kiss or show affection to OM when the PI was watching her?

I know you are doing the right thing. You will be alright. Just keep up the good work. My wife is at a wedding tonight at her home town, so I got wasted tonight. I actually turned down another woman. I know that I don't NEED my WW now. You don't either. You are just trying to save your M.

Hi Jim,

There was nothing physical captured, however I would consider the fact the OM rode to Atlanta with WW, had dinner together, and such to be showing affection.

All I can think of is that sometimes the right thing to do is not the easy thing to do.

I apprciate all your tips in my thread. If I could leave you with one it would be this - please be careful being in situations where you are having to turn down women. Yeah, we don't NEED our WW to live, but we sure do WANT them in our lives otherwise we would not be putting in this effort. We can't jeoparidize our efforts.

Latest update:

Talked to WW this morning - she is coming over to get stuff from the house. She will not let me see the kids until we have a legal agreement in place. She says that because I went back on our draft LSA that we "signed" she has no guarantees about anything, says that I should have thought about this before I decided to come home again, my word means nothing (and her's does right now?), blah, blah, blah
Also said it should only take a few weeks to petition the courts. I recorded that conversation for later.

she can't use the kids to extort a favorable LSA. That is going to look REALLY bad. Be certain to document multiple requests to see the children until the court imposes an agreement. Don't negotiate one AT ALL...that is unless she's willing to give you 100% custody....THAT would be reasonable as you are the only sane person in this marriage right now.

Mr. Wondering

Stay sane...don't give in to manipulation

Just saw that WW went to the ATM and took out $600 from the back account I left some money in for supporting the kids.

You might have to keep the balance a little lower so she can't use your money to pay for a lawyer or finance her affair instead of spending it on the kids.

WW came and got clothes for her and the kids, toys, books, etc. While she was here I got her purse in the van and took the credit cards that I already took her name off of, the debit card for the joint bank account, and also found the cash she took. I left her with $200.

I asked MIL if she supported my wife/her daughter's decision to leave our marriage and pursue an affair. She said she did not want to talk about it. I told her it is going on whether she wants to believe it or not.

I will have to talk to a lawyer tomorrow to find out how to be able to get the kids back and spend time with them. Having the next 2 weeks off work for vacation will be nice.

It's a dark day now in the life of Eph525. Now that she is gone how can I do a plan A? I am home alone. Will her anger subside any? The words "I hate you" still echo in my ears and hurt everytime.

I have IC this week on Tuesday and I will probably schedule another sessions with SH.

You are doing the right thing, buddy. The more pissed off they are, the more effective your plan is. You are throwing quite a monkey wrench into her plans. Why is she taking the kids? I would tell her she is going nowhere with my children.

Good job!!!! I suggest you clean the house - that will keep you busy.

Then, spend some time relaxing, and not thinking about all the stuff that is happening.

Plan A includes taking care of yourself.

The next two weeks...

Clean the house
Paint a room
Workout
Get a tan
Get a haircut
Get some new cologne (Bulgari Aqua is my recommendation)
Try to regulate your sleep to keep yourself sharp
Get up everyday, shave, shower and shine
Hire your attorney
Trust him/her to do their job
Read..read...read on how to become a better you

Perhaps anti-depressants will assist you through this difficult period...discuss with your doctor.

Mr. Wondering

Eph,

ML and Mr. W are exactly on. Please listen. You are fine! This is a marathon, not a sprint.

If you have read my story, then you know how many times, things have looked hopeless. But as Mr. W says...YOU will make it!! And your marriage MAY make it!

But, if you back down, if you dont "man up," then your marriage will NOT make it. And you may not either.

Get you a good lawyer. Understand that the lawyer works for YOU, not the other way around. let him know that you are trying to save your marriage, but his job was to slow things down and to protect you and the kids. And that you arent into negotiations!! That you and your attorney will dictate all terms.

I can help you thru this part, as I have been to court twice and came out ahead both times!!

I will post an update to my situation soon...and you may see that nothing is impossible. And that the fat Lady hasnt even begun to warm up in your situation.

Stay alert, soldier. Man your post.

Daily update:

Even though I am back in the house alone, I went over to some friend's house and had dinner with them last night. Being alone really sucks right now. I want to take care of me and do things for me, but I also want to see my kids.

I talked with the lawyer today and told him I was not taking the offensive bur rather witing to see what WW tries to do next. He recommended not cutting off WW financially - said it would look bad and recommended to ask her what she needs to see if we can reach an agreement. Alimony and CS payments are making my head spin. I told him about her taking the kids and he said that of course that looks bad for her also. He recommended to keep asking her to have time with the kids and if she keeps saying "no" that further legal action may be necessary. Yeah, I can just go up there and try to take them but I don't want to engage it that game. I really want to be able to spend time with them while I am home these two weeks because it seems to me it will be more difficult once I am back at work.

Talked to the PI today. I need to make a decision on whether to try to confront WW and get a confession or try to keep checking up on her. Problem is I doubt she will try to go to see OM while she is at her mom's. The cell phone and laptop could be huge for me now. What to do here?

I know I will make it. Even though the storm rages around me, I feel more peace about being at home than I did while I was away for a month. I know that I am doing the right thing. May God honor my decisions to do the right thing and may he give me a new and improved marriage.

Eph,

I wouldn't just go on the advice of the lawyer. The lawyer is responsible with protecting your legal rights, but not necessarily saving your marriage. I would consult with some of the posters here or Steve Harley before making any decisions. Not cutting her off may protect you better for future divorce proceedings, but may hurt your chances for marital recovery. I would also demand that my children be brought home. Sometimes you need to get tough with a WW. Don't show them any signs of weakness.

Eph,

Who is in the family home? Do you or are you currently getting at least 50/50% custody of the children? If so, then why in the ****** are you paying CS or alimony to a cheating, adulterous WW? What state do you live in?

He moved back into the home. His WW then left and took the kids back to her mother's house. Custody has not been arranged. I have told him to cut her off even though the lawyer has advised him against it. He lives in SC.

I cannot imagine SC requiring a man who should have 50/50 custody at a minimum or should be in court TOMORROW!!!! getting it to pay alimony to a cheating WW. Come on....

Go and get 50/50 minimum, or get a court date or get a new lawyer. Don't pay her to have an affair and pay no child support as you are in the family home, will have the children 50/50 and she is welcome to come home and be a wife and mother instead of an adulterous wife.

Quick update:

Met with IC today - I am developing a plan to get the kids back ASAP. Trying to come up with anti-fog speak responses so I will be prepared.

I took some "me" time and went to visit a childhood friend if mine in Winston-Salem. NC. We have kept in touch off and on over the years but he is a great Christian brother. It was good to get away.

WW called me this morning to let me speak with the kids (after 4 days of not being able to speak with them). She said not to say anything to them about visiting or seeign them. It breaks my heart and pisses me off to know she is keeping the kids away from me all because I made the decision to come back to the family house even though she does not want me here.

It is so great to read other people's success stories here, and I long to be in that same position sooner than later like a lot of other BSes here. Being alone sucks, the holidays suck, everything sucks right now.

I have changed my prayer from "God restore my marriage" to "God, give me a new marriage. The old one is not what I want anymore."

Eph,

What are you and your lawyer doing about getting a hearing or whatever it takes to get 50/50 custody (at a minimum) right now? Also, are you or are you not paying her to have her affair? Also, what is being done to see that OM is never around your children and that they are not exposed to the affair and its nonsense and immoral implications?

Please update us and God bless.

hopeandpray,

Lawyer said we could not even get a hearing this year. I am not paying her any money, I have removed her from all credit cards, destroyed them, and I have her ATM card to our joint account. I keep the balance low. I want to be able to give her something for the kids. I have asked her about transferring money to her account but she will not call me back to acknowledge this.

OK, about keeping OM away I cannot do anything about that right now since she is 1 hr away at her mom's. I exposed the A to her mom but she does not want to hear about it. My assumption is WW is keeping the affair going with her cell phone she got from OM and her laptop which I assume came from him also.

So your wife is being allowed to keep your own children away from you for Christmas??? WOW! Why would you tolerate this?

Eph,

You lawyer is working hard enough for you! Has he contacted your WW or her lawyer to let them know that there will be ****** to pay if she witholds the children from you? Has he made threats to her lawyer that he intends to keep in court? Does she leave the children at day care or in the care of someone else in the family and if so why can't you simply go and get them. YOU ARE THEIR FATHER AND NO ONE CAN STOP YOU FROM TAKING THEM JUST LIKE SHE HAS UNLESS THERE IS A COURT ORDER. What does your attorney say about this strategy? When can an EMERGENCY hearing be gotten. Normally within a week's time at the latest.

Don't play fair, she isn't and get your attorney's butt in gear or get another one.

I agree, Eph. I've said it before and I'll say it again. You need to find another attorney who is more of a bulldog and willing to fight for you. Your attorney seems to just go through the motions. You need your children home for Christmas Eve and Christmas. Let your WW know that it isn't an option as to whether or not they spend the holidays with you.

Unlike my WW, I am trying to be sensitive to how my kids are being impacted by this. It's becoming painfully clear that not doing what is in their best interests (i.e. having them home) is impacting them worse. She is the one using them as pawns.

I would tell your lawyer that your kids are spending Christmas at home with you (and possibly your WW as well). Tell him that is not an option, it is a fact. I would then ask him the least legally damaging way to accomplish that.

ML,

I have to say that somtimes when I first read your posts I take what you say personal, but I know you are one of the pros here and have been through this and only seek to help me. For that I am thankful. Keep kicking me in the tail - I need it.

Unfortunately...nearly all family courts are closed for the holidays. This is not an emergency situation to them.

Unless Eph gets in the reciprocating kidnapping game...he is SOL right now. Just keep calling and emailing to document HER INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR.

Mr. Wondering

Well it's Christmas Eve and I have not seen my WW or kids in a week. The house is emtpy and alone without them. I feel like I am going crazy!! I want to call WW and let fly with the anger that is stored within me, but I know that won't do any good. I don't know how much longer I can do this. I feel like I want to give up, but I know that pressing on is the only way. I want to be able to say I did everything, tried everything, I could to make this work.

If she is not here in the house, I guess I am only left with carrying out plan A via the phone and letters in the mail. Anyone else have some ideas for me?

This is ridiculous. I called about seeing them tomorrow and she said they already had plans. What kind of plans do you make to prevent a father from seeing his kids on Christmas?

God give me patience to wait on you and let you do the work you need to do first. I have not given up hope. You sent a miracle on that first Christmas night so long ago - please send another one and give me a new marriage.

Eph525 -

Sorry you are having such a bad Christmas. This is my 3rd Christmas since D-day, and the worst one yet.

My son's good friend, and friend of the family was murdered by a gang member Wednesday. His parents go to our church, and are wonderful parents. We've known this kid since T-ball. His life long dream was to be a cop. He worked in a gang neighborhood, making friends with the young people. A 17 year old shot him for no reason, from a half block away.

It completely ruined Christmas, but I am so thankful that my boys are alive and well. For you, this too will pass.

You need to take care of yourself right now, because you and you alone are standing for your family. Like Bob Pure said, "It's a hero's gig".

Your wife is fogged out, but don't think for a minute that this won't hurt her in the future. One day she will be appalled at her behavior. So keep the faith, realize that the Lord is with you. This may be happening for a reason.

If you are going crazy, keep posting here. Members here check in around the holidays, because we know how hard it is to go through this alone.

Thanks for the reply. Basically MB has become my lifeline these days. Thanks to everyne for their support.

Merry Christmas to everyone. Jesus is the reason for the season.

This place was a lifeline to most of us. I didn't find MB until 3 months after D-day. Before that, I was walking around like a zombie.

Seems to me your wife is very angry, and that is why she is behaving this way. Stay calm, and work on a plan. You will have a lot of help here.

You may need to have an attorneys help to secure visitation. But I would not seek divorce. Your wife is waaaaaayyyyyyyy out there right now. But they usually come back.

Here is the post about the carrot and stick of Plan A -

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

Yes, WW is very angry at me because I came back home. She is also angry about a lot of things I did/didn't do in our marriage but as I have come to learn some of that is fog-speak, especially the revisionist history part.

We both have a lot to do to make this work, and my fear is that she will not be committed to doing it. We will see.

None of them are committed to working on the marriage at first. But please trust that moving back home was ESSENTIAL in saving your marriage. Let her be angry.

Know that you are standing for your family - your children, even though you cannot be with them. A man steps up to the plate and does what needs to be done, and you have done that. Good on you.

Ephn

Merry Christmas...so sorry you are alone today but know that we are thinking of you.

I wanted to say this also...IF your situation doesn't right itself and you don't save your marriage...this holiday will be a FACT which your then ex-wife can NEVER deny. This battle goes beyond the year or two it take to save it or end it. As your children grow older and the time lapses from the actual "infidelity" event it becomes tougher to maintain a believable framework from which YOU can still argue/demonstrate/maintain that it was not YOUR fault and that you did all you could to save it. Over the years, your then ex-wife and her family can use "nice" terms to describe things like "we just fell out of love" or "we both hurt each other a lot" or "too much water under the bridge". They will claim you are just bitter if you attempt to continue to discredit your xw. The kids will get sick of it...not know who to believe and just chalk it up to humanistic explanations. After all they will know plenty of other divorced kids that just won't care to get the truth.

Thus your battle today is to not only fight for marriage but forever document that it's not at all about you. YOU lived up to your vows to the bitter end, YOU fought for those kids to the bitter end...YOU were the responsible, committed, logical and reasonable ADULT upon whom YOUR family can and should always rely on for the truth, for rightness, for justice...for LOVE.

In doing so...you just may save your marriage in the process.

God Bless Eph

Mr. Wondering

Thanks for your kinds words MrW.

I am actually debating on driving up to MIL's house with the presents for everyone and just saying 'Merry Christmas" and see what happens.

One more knife in the heart today:

In talking engagements with my wife I learned that she wanted to have her family be a part of the special moment. So on this day in 1996 I proposed to my W in front of her entire family.

So sorry to hear that, Eph. But you can have the peace of knowing that you are the one fighting for your family after all of these years.

Like Mr W says, she is not going to be able to gloss this one over.

Just talked to the kids - they are having a great Christmas Day. Both of them (DS5, DD3) asked when they would be able to see me and talked of coming home. As mush as that breaks my heart that has to do something to WW's heart as well. I asked if we could get together tomorrow and exchange gifts but WW again said they have plans alrerady (like they did today but they are just at MIL's house). I mentioned about it being 10 years since I proposed and she said she has not really thought about it.

You know, I don't feel like I am making any imapct in what I am fighting for. if anything, I am the one being alienated and I am not even the WS here. How twisted is this? Right now it feels like she is winning. It's driving me crazy.

She is NOT winning. She is angry with you for moving home and wanting to save the family. She is punishing you for stepping up and being a man.

Please trust me on this. She would prefer for you to take the easy way, move out, and let her do what she pleases. Later she will respect you for the stand you are taking. In the meantime, she will continue trying to make you miserable.

Years ago, in the middle of a big divorce and custody battle, my husband disappeared with our boys for a week. He told them that I didn't want to be married anymore, and didn't want them.

My sons were only 2 and 4. My 4 year old later told me that he KNEW that I loved them. See, my husband dropped by the house a couple of times while I was at work. I had made the boys beds, arranged their stuffed animals, etc.

So even a very young child can pick up on things. If I were you, I would have the presents in the house, pay special attention to their rooms. It is sad for your boys, but what they most need now is one parent fighting for their family. And that parent is YOU.

By the way, I got sole custody of my kids, and supervised visitation for him. The judge didn't like the way my husband used the kids.

Today of all days she is succeeding in trying to make me feel miserable.

Do you have any idea who the OM might be?

I know for a fact who it is. Thinking of paying him a visit tomorrow and telling him that I am trying to save our marriage and if he has any respect for me, W, and our family he will not attempt to contact her or accept any contact WW tries to make.

Bad idea. Please stay away from him - he doesn't have any respect for you, your wife, or your family.

But it would be good to expose the affair to anyone that would have input to him - his parents, friends, work, etc.

I called WW today to ask if she wanted to go to dinner and talk and her reply was that there was nothing to talk about. I asked again about seeing her and the kids to have Christmas together and she said she had to think about it because she thinks I will use the kids to get back at her. This comes from a comment I made once about protecting the kids and keeping them with me which she took as a threat.

VENTING TIME:
Huh? Excuse me? She has the nerve to say this when she is the one who has run off from the family home with the children all because I stood up for what was right and came home? Then she brings up how she cannot trust me and that my word means nothing to her. All while she has been lying about seeing OM. She is trustworthy? It's all I can do to keep from blowing up when she does this. I know I cannot let this AO happen, but good gosh it absolutely kills me to hear this junk thrown back at me. I really want her to know how I feel without it being angry or retaliatory, but I cannot help but think if I try it will end up like that. Does she really think she can look at herself and our kids and say that she tried everything and that giving up is the best thing to do?
VENTING OVER

So she wants to come over tomorrow and pick up some "loose stuff" and have a discussion about how to divide up stuff in the house.

VENTING AGAIN:
What? She continues to deny me peaceful access to the kids and she wants to talk about dividing up family items? Who does she think she is, anyway? This is freaking ridiculous. There is no way I am willing to let her have anything in the house. I am so pissed off right now it is not funny. And to top it all off I an getting as sick as a dog.
VENTING OVER

The only thing I can think to do is try to tell her how I feel about the situation in a non-LBing manner and tell her that I do not wish to make any agreements to anything while she is involved with OM (even if I only have proof of an EA right now). She is going to deny this and the only think I know to do at this point is to tell her the facts as I know them from the PI.

Something like:

Me: It hurts me to hear you say our marriage is over. I think the best-case scenario for us and the kids is we try to build a new marriage. I know it will take work. I know I have things I need to change about myself in order to better meet your needs. I was not as committed to doing that in the past as I should have been because I didn't have anything real to base it on, but I feel like the MB principles that I have been researching will help us build a solid foundation. I don't feel like we had something like that in the past. I have what it takes in me to do this and I believe that you do as well.

WW: I told you already I am done. Your words mean nothing to me.

Me: I have heard you say you are done and my words mean nothing to you. I have been deeply hurt by your dishonesty about seeing and communicating with OM.

WW: Are you bringing this up again?

Me: You have a cell phone that is registered to OM that you kept secret from me. You have a laptop computer that you kept secret from me. Having those things says to me that you are keeping communications with OM in secret. You picked up OM on your way to the Dr and he went with you.

WW: I told you I took the cell phone back to him and he did not go with me. There is nothing on the laptop.

Me: I know and have proof that OM went with you to the Dr. What I have learned is that as long as OM is in the picture you will not want to work on our marriage. Also, I am not talking separation and divorce, only what it will take to recover and build a new marriage.

WW: What marriage?

Me: The marriage we have that has produced 2 beautiful children that need a mother and father. The one that our marriage certificate says took place on June 6, 1998. But I don't want our old marriage, I want a new, living, vibrant, marriage.

WW: I told you I don't want to be married to you.

This is where I start to lose the conversation because it ends up in this loop. I could use some assistance in getting out of this loop.

This whole thing is really draining me physically and emotionally and I still catch myself wondering if it is all worth it. Right now the only thing keeping me going is the fact that I want to be able to look at myself and my kids and say I did everything I could to save things. I just am starting to wonder if I have reached that point because I cannot get through the walls of anger and contempt built up in the WW. I know that my W is a loving, caring, respectful, fun loving person and right now I do not even see that in her at all.

Please pray for me that I will have the physical and emotional strength to pursue her and that any conversations tomorrow would go well. May every thought and every word be from God.

Hey Eph...

Look, all of the things she is saying are because of the fog. She is "drunk." Let's say this all had not happened, and that your wife came home one night drunk and started saying a bunch of stuff. Would you really take what she is saying seriously? Or could it be the booze talking?

Same goes here. All WSs do what you described above. And yes, it is very hard to hear that. But literally, they are not of their right minds. So, you are going to have to learn to separate yourself from her words right now. Otherwise, you will get drained and you will explode.

Now, the issue of the kids and the stuff in the house. I assume you have yet to see the kids since she left, right? And if this is true, what is the status on getting your lawyer to rectify that?

If that process is going on, then here's what I would do about the stuff in the house. I assume you have changed the locks on the house. If not, do so today! Then, let your WW know that since she has chosen to take the kids from the family home and to keep them from their father, that this issue will be settled in court shortly. And at that time, the judge can decide what she can get out of the house. In most states, division of marital property isnt decided until the end of the process. Sure, you can do so in the beginning (in a separation agreement), but of course, you arent going to agree to that.

So, sicne she has left, it is highly probably that the judge would only award her being able to get "personal" items (clothing, etc).

As I told you before, please make sure you have a pit bull for an attorney...and get him moving on protecting your interests. Defending boundaries is NOT a love buster!! Defending your family, your home and your marriage are not love busters!

You need to pen her in. She already is living at her mom's. So while trying to Plan A her, you also need to work behind the scenes to close off all of the things her Taker wants (divorce, house, OM, kids, money, etc). Get busy.

You need to hand your attorney an open and shut case. Oh yeah, and I assume that you have been documenting EVERYTHING!!

First of all, when she says she is worried that you will use the kids to get back at her, you need to point out that is what she is doing.

Secondly, you don't need to prove to her how you know about OM. She already knows. Let's say you get her to confess, then what? What does that do for you? Yeah, it may give you some satisfaction that she knows she's caught, but it will only tip her off that she is being followed, and it may send her into a fury. There is no use of telling her how you know, just that you know.

Don't let her take a d*mn thing out of your house. If she wants something, tell her she can talk to your lawyer. Tell her you aren't giving her a divorce, and she is in for a fight if she wants to break apart your family, possibly risking losing the children. Make sure your lawyer is ready for this challenge.

Oh...let me revise this above a little...

Dont come off as a hard a$$, okay? Dont say this stuff in a tone like you are gonna take her to the cleaners. As a matter of fact, just say the following:

WW: "I want to come get some stuff and talk about dividing up the property."

EPH: "What's there to talk about?" <a little reverse babble, since she said this about talking about the marriage>

WW: "Look, Eph, you dont have to be difficult. I'm not coming back, but we can work out a lot of this ourselves. That would be best for the kids."

EPH: "I dont do divorce...I do marriage. Thus, I am not willing to discuss divorce or divorce-related issues with you. I believe what's best for the kids is two loving parents in the same home. Outside of that, I do not agree."

WW: "You know...I will take you to court and you will never see these kids again."

EPH: "WW, I love you and the kids very much. I have asked you repeatedly to work on the marriage. I have also asked for you to give me access to the kids. You have done neither. I have not changed my mind about you or them...nor will I. As I said, I dont do divorce...I do marriage."

WW: "Well, yo uare goign to have to deal with me on this as I am not coming back and I will show the judge that you are being unreasonable."

EPH: "WW, you can do as you feel you have to. No oen can stop you. As I said, I love you and my family. If you chose to leave this family, then of course, there is nothign I can do to stop you."

WW: "I'm not leaving the family...I'm leaving you."

EPH: "However you want to look at it, WW. But as far as those remaining in the family...me and the kids...none of us want you to leave nor want their family destroyed. But none of us are getting a choice in that matter. If the other people in the family besides you got to vote, you would not be leaving. So, it appears that the family wants to stay together. It is you that wants to leave."

WW: "You are impossible to talk to. Why do you have to be this way? This is why I am leaving you. Why cant you get it together?"

Eph: "You are free to think what you want, WW. But just know that I love you and our family and I want us to work out our issues and move forward. I have not, nor will I, change my mind."

WW: phone goes 'click'


Okay, you see how that works? You stay on message. You dont get caught up in the "well, if you try to take the kids, I will get my lawyer to..." You DO NOT talk about divorce. Period! Let your attorney do the talking.

When you file for custody, do so first. And when you do so, dont tell yoru wife beforehand. Dont answer her questions about it once you have done so. Just go back to "I do marriage, my attorney does divorce..." mantra. That way over time, she will see that in order to talk to you, she will only be talking about marriage and family. In order to talk abotu divorce, she will have to talk to your attorney.

It sort of takes you out of the "bad guy" role.

So, update me on your status with your lawyer, the kids, the locks on the house, etc.

Eph,

I've read your story, and as every one who has been replying to you has suggested, your situation is not unique and you can make it through.

I've noticed some legal questions about SC, and I can provide some insight, as i am dealing with the legal system in this state currently. I am not a Lawyer, but I have learned a great deal in the past year as I have dealt with my situation.

To prove adultry in SC you need inclination and oppurtunity. What does this mean? You need to prove your WW had the inclination to commit adultry, and had the oppurtunity to do so. What does this mean? something simple like kissing, holding hands, etc. can prove inclination. To prove oppurtunity all you need is to prove that your WW was in a private location with OM for a lenghth of time to consumate the act. It sounds like your PI already got that by tracking your WW to OM's house. If she was inside for more than 15 min or so, you have oppurtunity. In other words, in SC you don't need 8 x10 glossy photos of the two in the act to prove adultry. Another idea: it sounds like OM went with WW to Atl. Did they stay in a hotel? Do you know which? If so give the hotel security manager a call. Most hotels keep all security camera footage for a couple of weeks, sometimes a month. Explain your situation to the security manager, and ask that he set aside any footage for the day in question. Something simple like footage of WW and OM checking in together will be a homerun in court. Once the legal battle is joined your lawyer can send a subpeona to the hotel for the footage.
here is a key point: In SC, adultry, by law, forever bars alimony, regardless of any other issues such as custody, etc. But adultry can play a huge part in the judge's decision when it comes to custody.
Hang in there man, you will overcome.

Would the fact that she previously admitted to having an affair with the OM multiple times previously in the marriage qualify for inclination?

Jw, excellent question which raises a couple of points i didn't address in my above post.

In SC, if you have SF with WS after full diclosure of the A, it indicates forgiveness which means you can't pursue adultery in court. In other words, if you file on Dec 31 claiming Adultery, and have SF on Jan 1, you can't legally claim Adultery.

However in this case, the previous A (3 years ago) was followed by SF, which means eph can't bring it up in court. But, it certainly appears that the A is ongoing, so it is definatly pursueable in court.

But eph, be careful. My lawyer has warned me that many WS on finding out about the above described 'escape clause' will lure the BS into a one night stand to cover thier tracks. So once the battle is joined in court, be very careful about any 'premature' recovery, as it can backfire on you.

A couple of more thoughts on inclination, phone records and emails can certainlly help. There have been a few tips on this above, but realize that both of these things are subpeonable once the temp order is issued.

My point is that I don't think there was ever full disclosure because she has at the very minimum, kept in contact and visited the OM behind Eph's back.

Thanks guys for the legal stuff. Since Virginia is the same as South Carolina legally on this issue, I did advise Eph several weeks ago on this stuff (condonation and alimony) when I talked to him.

Thanks all for your comments and advice. I will post an update later with more info - I just got back from the doctor about this cold (and ADs, yeah) and need to take a nap.

Well what a day.

WW told me last night she was coming over around noon today to get some stuff. She finally showed up around sometime after 4 and proceeds to start packing up some stuff in the kitchen (dishes, cups, etc). I tried to make small talk, asking how she was, how the kids are, what she got for Christmas, etc. When she kept on getting stuff, I finally said that she needed a court order to take anything else, that all I would agree to was personal items. She said the stuff was hers too, and I said no it belongs to the family and the family is here. I had to call the police out to stop her (I think she was quite surprised by that). While we were waiting for them she proceeded to blame me for all this, tell me I was controlling her, the money, etc. I just kept saying I had a boundary when it comes to the family and I am standing up for the family and was not willing to let her tear the family apart. I was able to control any AOs and always tried to get her to explain her statements when they did not make sense.

Police arrived and we both gave our side of the story. It was agreed she would only take clothes for her and some toys for the kids. She is pissed royally. I was standing outside as she got in the van and she said something about not having to stand out there and see her off that I have fulfilled my husbandly duties. As I handed her some mail she threw out that opening her mail was a federal offense.

She also said I should have given up and walked away a long time ago that it would have been easier that way because though I never physically left her

So to answer MMs questions earlier:

I have not seen the kids since 12/15. I will be contacting the lawyer tomorrow to start the custody process. You mentioned a pit-bull attorney - I don't get that impression yet but neither do I think he will not do anything.

I did not change the locks as I did not think that was necessary. That might be a good idea considering that I will be back at work next week and the house will be empty during the day

As far as documentation goes, I have done it as best I can with a journal and recorded conversations and the PI. I hope it is enough and I get a sympathetic judge.

Oh, she also asked why I bothered to have flowers sent to her (2 dozen roses). I said it was because I still loved her and wanted to build a new marriage with her. Her comment to that was something along the lines of my actions not backing up my words.

I'm out of town so only a couple of minutes to post:

Maybe consider boxing up some of the extra valuable personal items and putting them in storage may be a good idea just in case ww enters the home in the next week and cleans it out. Until she has a court order to the contrary she has every right to enter and take whatever she wants if you are not there to stop her. If you at least put away some things you can protect yourself to some extent as the lawyers will take their time filing things (they won't be done by monday most likely).

In addition to a custody filing you may HAVE to file a divorce petition or restraining order of some sort which restricts or freezes, at least temporarily, the movement of personal assets until the court can figure it out. Filing a actual divorce petition may be necessary if you want to immediately file a claim against OM for loss of consortum/interference with marital relations (if possible in your state). I don't see a huge advantage in waiting to make WW actually file the claim...she's apparently going in that direction anyway and it IS advantageous in the custody dispute for you to take the initiative. You don't talk divorce but you can file a claim and sit on the claim for a long time in your state from what I've heard.

Mr. Wondering

"She is pissed royally. I was standing outside as she got in the van and she said something about not having to stand out there and see her off that I have fulfilled my husbandly duties"

LMAO -- YIKES!!!!!!

But you did just fine. Good job on saying that you were standing for your family, and on calling the cops. We have had a couple of men here that got forced out of their home under the guise of a protective order.

I'm very proud of you. There are a ton of women that would LOVE for their husband protect the family. I know she is madder than a wet hen right now, but I do think that you are growing on her.

I wish I could see into her brain and know if I was growing on her because her words and action send the message that I am driving her away. Her seeing everything as controlling really bothers me. Yes, am guilty of controlling behavior i.e. Selfish Demands in the past I so of course I feel bad when she tells me this, but I remember that it is NOT selfish to want to save our marriage and protect the children. Of course, she says that it took her saying she wanted out for me to take any action.

Oh, she also mentioned something to the police about getting a place of her own soon. I can't imagine what that is going to be all about, but it is a clue to her intentions so I better get my tail in gear and get custody.

Did you see Mr.W's suggestion? It's a good one. My ex took 6 truckloads out of my home while I was at work. Also guard your important papers. Ex got those too, and I was kicking myself because my sis who is an attorney warned me, and I didn't believe her.

I suggest calling your office, informing them of the situation, and NOT leaving your home unattended until the restraining order is in place and/or the locks have been changed. I'm sure that they will allow you a day or two to get things in order.

Alternatively, do you have any family or friends that can keep an eye on your home in your absence?

Oh, yes I keep the important papers, notebooks, etc with me at all times.

I'll be calling a locksmith tomorrow.

Now, as your wife is running all over at Christmas with your kids, is she still in contact with the OM? I may have missed the details on him.

Well I have no proof one way or another if she is still in contact with the OM. She says she gave the cell phone back to him but her messages still are on the v-mail for the phone. The laptop remains a mystery.

She had an affair before with this man? Does he live close by? Does he have any kids? Does he make good money?

Yes, there was a previous A 2003 that we never really recovered from fully, just swept under the rug so to speak. I really wish I had found MB back then. OM lives about an hour away, no kids, not married, don't know about a GF, though.

Based on what the PI told me, he lives in a dump. Whether that is any indication of him making good/bad money I don't know.

I'm just thinking about all of this. Your wife is furious right now, but hasn't gotten over it as quickly as most. Usually there is a huge uproar, but it doesn't last long.

Was she a good wife and mother before the affair?

She is a good wife but failed to meet my ENs consistently just as I failed to meet hers consistently. We took each other for granted, engaged in LBing behaviors, etc. This is why it blows my mind to hear the comments she makes about me being the cause of all this. We are both guilty for our marriage being in the state that it is.

She is still a good mother, although I am concerned about her health in all of this with her dealing with her eating disorder and being treated for depression (which she claims is being caused by our marriage). This greatly impact her ability to care for the kids by herself.

I don't know. Maybe her other problems are causing her to react the way she is - which is a bit on the extreme side. I don't think I would lock her out of your home. I can see keeping your things safe, but locking her out? That is really a declaration of war.

I don't think she is going to get her own place, but we will see.

She is strong willed and is the kind of person that if you tell her she cannot do something she will prove that she can do it, so it will not surprise me if she does get her own place. The question for me is where will that be?

A couple of questions, Eph.

Did you talk to BIL and what was his reaction?

How could she even afford her own place?

I think now that you'll make her start to see the consequences of her actions (police keeping her from taking items from the house, a lawyer who will fight for custody, no financial support), she and her stubbornness will begin to crack. She can't believe you are going to these lengths. You were supposed to just bend over and take it!?!

Great job on handling her, Eph!! You see, as she sees the consistency in what you are doing, she will begin to believe that you indeed value the family and aim to protect it. That is why she asked about the flowers. That is why she is also mad.


You see, she had this all worked out. She made herself believe that you didnt care. So, she was ready to move on with her life in a different direction. She expected you to walk away, to divorce her. She expected you to leave. She expected you to not put up a fight.

But instead, you have held your ground. You have fought for the family, and hopefully soon, for the kids. And also for her. But in the meantime, you have defended boundaries.

And this makes her mad. My wife said at one point "why did it take all of this to make you fight for me?" You see, they get really upset that they are now in adultery, destroying the family...and then have no excuse because their spouse isnt the way they thought they were.

So, steady as she goes. Mr. Wondering had great advice above. On the lawyer...you need to make sure he/she is going to push forward on this. Many lawyers will want to make a deal. And while you may need to make a deal at some point, right now is not the time. As you said, she is shopping for a place to live. If she has to take money to hire an attorney, she wont be able to do that. Also, if she gets a house, then she can say this is the kids new home. Right now, she is living in temporary housing.

Get your attorney on the issue of not seeign your kids and them not returning to their home. Now! Do as Mr. W said, and take all valuable items out of the house and store at a friends, relatives or even rent one of those storage units someplace. Even though you put new locks on, she is within her right to break a window or call a locksmith.

You have a lot of work to do. And since you did call the police, count on her moving fast now. You need to keep boxing her in.

On the boxing in deal...yes, she is going to perceive you as controlling. Why? Because you arent going along with her plan. You were supposed to give her everything and walk away. Dont worry about that! This is a natural progression in the life of a WS. My wife said the same things. They all do!!

So, get on the stick. See your attorney today. Tell him you do not want to divorce at this time, but file what he needs to to protect you, the family hoem and assets, and to get custody of those kids.

Just a quick idea but perhaps your excuse for moving out a ton of personal effects could be that YOU intended to paint the house yourself with your free time. Even once you win some or all custody there will be free time to paint when the kids are not with you ...so no time like the present to get going on that project and surprise your wife with a new paint job. Thus, nothing vindictive or sneaky about moving personal effects into storage and you are shocked that she'd even say that...how did she even know...did she come over to grab stuff while I was at work?????

Maybe a redo of the kitchen cabinets...wives are often connected to their kitchen accessories...plates, placesettings, china...all gone so you can spruce up the kitchen cabinetry.

Her jewelry, clothes, personal items may be packed up and hidden because it disturbed you emotionally to view them out in the open and cause you are going to paint the bedroom too. You never liked the color and since she's abandoned the home...well you may have to be there alone for quite some time.

Also, thinking out loud, a remodel project half-started may be a small reason the judge may not kick you out of the home should WW petition for re-entry. "But your honor, my client Eph is in the midst of repainting the interior of the home and redoing the kitchen...he wanted to surprise his wife when she ended her adulterous ways with a newly redone home for their family. Judge MAY be more hesitant to remove him.

Change the code on the garage door opener and if it locks with a key perhaps lock it so if she intends to load stuff up she must do it out the front door.

Pack up a suitcase of clothes for each of the kids too just in case she tries to remove ALL there stuff. You can replace much of it if necessary but it would be nice to at least retain some of it.

Hide a voice activated recorder in the house. With free access to the home you likely can find a way to plug one in...that wiil tell you if anyone was there and if so what was said...especially when she calls OM after discovering you've removed much of the stuff.

I'm still on holiday at my IL's in Georgia...only checking in sporadically.

Mr. Wondering

Eph, I'm not sure about taking stuff from your house. You are trying to prevent her from removing stuff, if you remove stuff (even with the intention of returning them) it could look like to the judge you are guilty of what you are accusing your wife of doing.

Perhaps buy a safe or put a lock on a closet.

I need to reiterate what Mortar and Wonder have said. Your lawyer needs to get moving pronto. You have several issues that must be solved

1. Children's custody

2. The marital house

3. Marital property.

Please reread my previous posts, and if your lawyer is unable to expound on them and enact a plan to achieve your goals NOW, find a new lawyer NOW.

I like Mr. W's idea - it is not confrontational, and will be good for Eph.

Well I just got a call from my wife's lawyer that I will be served papers today. Of course, my lawyer is on vacation today (go figure) until Wednesday next week. We have been in contact via e-mail so I let him know what is going on. Maybe this is an indication I need a new lawyer? I have no idea when it comes to these things.

I can only guess that she is bent on destroying our marriage one way or another. Man, this is not what I wanted at all.

Well, (where is MR. W???), you can probably avoid service for a few days.

My guess is she is going to try to have you put OUT of the home. In California, they cannot do that, but don't know about your state.

You will likely have 21 days to respond...it's unlikely in any state she can have you immediately removed absent the filing of some bogus restraining order.

If the court house is near there is a chance you can go up and take a look at what she filed before being served. If it contains anything about removing you immediately from the home...avoid service. I doubt she's doing that but you never know. Your attorney may hava a clerk or associate at the courthouse today that could take a peak at what was supposedly filed.

Process servers do their work in the evenings...around dinner time is the best bet. In some states they have to touch you with the paperwork but in most they just have to be certain it is you and then drop the paperwork as served whether you take it or not. Many of these guys are off-duty sherrifs so if they see you they will just say they actually handed it to you. Avoiding process is usually a waste of time.

Don't give up...this is par for the course. At least you made her do what she eventually intended to do anyway instead of you filing. She's carrying the legal load and you just stay resolute and work with your attorney behind the scenes.

This ain't over by a long shot. Act, Don't React.

Mr. Wondering

Again I'm not a lawyer so please consult your lawyer on this, but:

Probably what you will be served with is a notice to appear before a temp hearing which will decide several things for the near term: 1. Custody (and visitation) 2. Child support 3. Marital Residence status and 4. Restraining orders. This is a bandaid solution until the full divorce can be decided. In the SC family court I've dealt with it typically takes 10-14 days to get a hearing scheduled. SO likely you have a hearing sometime during the second or third week of Jan. In your WW's complaint it will be spelled out what they want in each category (and you can imagine what she is asking for). The key thing is to get with your lawyer at the earliest oppurtunity to decide on your response. It is critical to gather evidence at this point to prove to the judge what kind of behavior your WW has been exhibiting.

Now I may be wrong, but in SC the only way she can force you to leave immediatly without the benefit of a temp hearing is if she shows up, an altercation develops, the police are called and you are hauled off to jail for domestic violence. So the simple fact of you being served today won't force you to leave the house. In fact it won't affect the court date (unless you leave the country NOW and stay gone for the next few weeks), so it doesn't serve any purpose to avoid it. In fact as part of that service you should recieve her complaint and you'll be able to study it this weekend, make notes, and have the evidence ready when you go see your lawyer next week.

start thinking about asking for affidavits from friends, family, witnesses to the A, and the PI, to present to the judge.

Additionally YOU control your destiny here. YOU must gather evidence and prepare it for your lawyer. You alot familiar with the details of what has been going on than he or she is. Have it organized, prepared, and easy to follow to give to your lawyer. Doing alot of this yourself will save you BEAUCOUP money over the long run.

OK, the action was not for D, but separate support and maintenance, i.e legal separation. Interesting that it was filed on Dec 19th. The court date in Jan 8, 2007.

Couple of key points:
1. Grant joint legal custody of minor children with primary physical placement to the Defendant. Since I am the defendant, I take this that the kids will stay with me, and if that is the case then I should not have to pay CS. Am I reading this right?
2. Grant defendant temporary use of the marital home until it is sold.

My lawyer asked me to put down the full history of our marriage, emphasizing from the time she asked me to leave the house forward, so he could use it for an affidavit.

Are you sure you are reading this correctly? That sounds very odd that she would cede you physical custody and use of the home.

When you give the lawyer the history, please also include everything about the affair and name the OM, ok?

Oh, that is very good news.

Do you make enough money to do the house payments and take care of the kids? Seems to me that she will have to have a good job to pay you child support. But your attorney will know.

Now I would get very busy making sure you have all bases covered before going to court. That includes daycare, way to get them to medical care, and whatever else is needed for their welfare. Have a written plan of what will be done, who can be called for help, etc.

Your attorney will know more about selling the house. But I think your wife will be back. This is way better than I hoped for.

Yes if you have primary physical custody she WILL have to pay you child support. In SC child support is figured on guidlines (formulas) based on incomes. If you WW has no job, her income will be figured at minimum wage x 40 hours a week. In my case my WW had no job at our temp hearing and her Child support to me came to around $120. She has since gotten a job and has more income and I could file for more CS, but that would cost me more lawyer $, and the math just doesn't work out now.

As I and others have previously said, you need to write out your WHOLE story to give to your lawyer. Also think about an affidavit from your PI. If the judge sees how your wife has been behaving, especially from an independent observer, the more he or she will favor towards you when deciding the details of visitation.

Yes, it's quite strange. On one page it says "Granting joint legal custody of the minor children with primary physical placement to the defendant..." Then on another page it says "The plaintiff would further allege that it is in the children's best interests that the parties be awarded joint legal custody of the minor children with the Plaintiff having primary residential custody. Then on yet another page it again says "Granting joint legal custody of the minor children with primary physical placement to the defendant." I think they messed up here but it will be to my advantage.

Of course she is also asking for alimony, use of the vehicle, equitable distribution of debts and assets, CS and reimbursement for medical expenses, health and life insurance, her attorney's fees and costs, etc.

I do make enough to make the house payments and expenses for the kids as I have been the sole breadwinner for the past 6 years. What I don't make enough for is to have to cover all this plus any alimony. I will definitely have to sell the house, though.

It sounds like your WW's paralegal and lawyer were asleep at the wheel! LOL.

Remember, in SC adultery bars alimony so it's important to get that topic front and center in front of the judge.

Yes, I have been aware that adultery bars alimony - that is why I hired the PI to begin with. While I don't have the slam dunk evidence, I do have enough circumstantial evidence I think and (unfortunately) a history between WW and OM that extends to before we were married. I guess that will depend on the judge.

Eph,

That order is full of typos. It will be worked out in court. So let's look at what they are after:

She wants alimony, primary physical custody, use of the house (until sold) and a host of other financial issues. Let's break this down.

If you have proof of adultery, then you pay no alimony. Period. So, you need that evidence to meet what we spoke about before. Make sure you have this...otherwise, alimony will cost you a bunch!

The kids. That ebook Mr. Wondering told you about should help. You have to get all the evidence you can. Document everything you do for the kids. Have the plan in place how you will take care of the kids without her around. I like the idea that Mr. W stated about you starting work on the house. Painting the kids'room. Shows you are directly working on their behalf. Also, get everyone that you can that knows you and your wife as parents that will speak highly of you (and lowly of her, if they will). You will need them to write statements on your behalf. Maybe even something from your pastor! Many times, the amout of evidence will trump the quality of the evidence. So, if you dump on the judge a ton of stuff showing you as a great parent...while showing her as unstable and keeping you from the kids...it should go well for you.

The big push on that is that if she wants joint with physical, then there is no guarantee she will make things easy for the kids to be with both of you. She has already shown that by denying you access to the kids over Christmas. So, your attorney should really push that if it is joint, that you get primary and that you can be trusted to make sure swaps and visitation will go off as they should.

On the other issues...financial...you need to just have your attorney ride with it. Usually, the stuff will be split in half. So, no worries on that. And if you can prove adultery, you wont have to worry about alimony or having to pay attorney fees (since there will be fault against her). On the house, I like Mr. W's idea of really making it yours. Buy the paint so you can show a receipt in court. Photograph everything in there, just in case you do lose and have to leave. that way she cant hide things and say they dont exist.

Get with it. As Mr. W said, you probably have three weeks to respond. But, with the temporary hearing on January 8th, I doubt that to be the case right now. So, you will need to launch right now.

Please tell me again what evidence you have of your wife's affair(s). Who else has direct knowledge of this (beside the OM(s)?

She does not want use of the house. That point is clear - defendant gets temporary use of the home until sold.

Kids: starting to document everything here and figure out a plan for caring for them while I am at work. I need to finish reading the ebook.

Financial: the lawyer mentioned it may not be 50/50 since SC is an equitable distribution state. He said it could be that since I made all the money the court could favor me more like 60/40 or whatever.

If you don't mind, I'd like to take further adultery discussions offline if you have some time. Like I mentioned, I have a lot of circumstantial evidence and a pattern of behavior with OM.

Maybe. And maybe again it could be a typo here too. Count on her wanting the house...then if she doesnt, it is good for you! Plan like she is taking you to the cleaners.

It is a wealth of info. It is your battle plan! Please make sure you have that plan in place BEFORE you go to court. dont say to the judge "Well, I was planning for them to go to my Mom's for two hours until I get home" or anything like that. It should be "Your Honor, I have already signed up with XYZ Christian Day Care and put a deposit down for 1-2 hours a day on work days for the kids to go to until I get thru traffic and get home." Or something like that...whatever suits your sitch.

He is correct. But as I said...always worse case scenario everything. Plan for the worst...hope for the best!

You know how to reach me, Eph. We can talk offline on this.

MM, just sent you an e-mail.

Just feeling alone, bitter, and angry right now. I feel the weight of the world on my shoulders right now. I feel like everything is all my fault - the state of our M, the A, now the pending separation. I am starting to feel doubts about going through with all this. The rain and gloom outside today doesn't help either.

Writing out the history of our M for the lawyer so it can be used against my WW at some point is really difficult. I just need to keep in mind I am facing a WW (the alien) and not my real W. It still hurts.

Go out and do something for yourself today.

I thought my marriage was over back on 11/8. I actually set up the appointment with the lawyer, and was ready to withdraw the $1000 retainer. God works in mysterious ways. Leave this in His hands.

Eph,

Let me make this easier for you right now. I have been where you are. Dealing with a woman whose actions, words, language, morals, etc I did not recognize. This woman was nothing like the woman I married and had children with. I had to finally come to grips with this during the D and custody/financial hearing. YOU have to do this now!!

AT THIS POINT, she feels nothing for you. She hates that you have ruined her little affair fantasy w/ reality, she hates herself, she hates life, she is bitter, angry, guilt riddern, and it IS YOUR FAULT. See, it can't be her's or she would have to look in the mirror, confront herself to who she's become, come back to you apologize to you and the children and the OM and his family for becoming an adulteress. She would want to work on your M, get help for herself. She can't do that so it has to be someone's fault that she finds herself where she is. Mostly IT's YOURS (in her mind).

She will not play nice and neither will her lawyer, mine didn't. It is up to you to use that anger, bitterness, frustration, etc as energy to fuel your fire for your case. My attorney told me in court "Don't feel sorry for her, she wouldn't and doesn't feel sorry for you. Watch her actions."

As MM said, 1. No alimony, prove adultery there will not be any, 2. Ask for FULL legal and physical custody of children with her having visitation, GET your case together here.. 3. No one of the opposite sex who is not married or kin around the kids 4. Go for a fault divorce, adultery 5. Settle for nothing less than 60/40 split of finances, She did this not you. 5. Keep the home for the children's stability 6. Ask her to pay legal fees 7. Name OM in divorce papers

Eph, I promise you that some day your WW (and mine) will rue the day they did this BUT IT IS NOT NOW!!! For now you have to be ruthless and factual and composed for your kid's sake. LET her experience the consequences of her decisions and leave her to GOD. USE these feelings to be productive in developing your case and working with your attorney.

Well I have been doing stuff for myself the past two weeks. It's time to make the preparations for the battle ahead. It is in God's hands, but he calls me to be actively involved no matter how much this hurts to do.

What really sucks is being in the house alone with so many reminders of the wife and kids. I would rather that she was here with all these reminders staring her in the face. Maybe then the light would come on.

Eph,

Read what I wrote above. There will come a time and day when SHE see's clearly. Whether she will desire to do the right thing at that point or whether she's even capable or not, we will see. You may have already moved on, who knows?

But, right now, trust me there is little that help her see through the fog short of letting her go, protecting you and the kids from this alien WW person and letting OM or someone else meet her needs other than being able to fall back on you to do it. (i.e. cake eating)

Like JIM said do something fun for you today.

So have you picked out some paint colors you like, removed personal property, laid out painters plastic and that crappy blue tape.

You don't have to do much of the job itself right now...just the set up.

It's a good Plan A activity anyway to keep you busy, productive and making the marital home your own...whether you sell it or keep it.

Mr. Wondering

Just trying to line up some assistance with child care so I can tell my attorney my plan and be able to get at least 50/50 physical custody if not outright 100% custody. I am on the way to talk with some friends of ours about this. Please pray that this would work out.

Yeah, I am really thinking about the paint thing. I could at least start on DD3's room.

Oh, I am really getting the impression that my attorney may not be the pit bull type. When I told him I wanted to get at the minimum 50/50 physical custody he made some comment about how that could be hard to do. We meet on Wednesday and if I don't have a good felling then I will look for someone else. Problem is I need to move quickly.

You need a new attorney.

Hard to do my rear end!!!!!!!!! Your cheating WW is having an affair, exposing the children to immorality, abandoning the family, using poor and impulsive judgement and worse and it's going to be hard to do!!!

It his attitude doesn't get better than I would get someone with a track record of gaining custody for fathers.

What state are you in?

He's in SC of all places. That has to be one of the best states for this type of situation.

Not sure the situation in SC but in DFW aree there is a growing legal specialization for father rights in custody cases especially in cases of WW. Apparently the market is growing here. I hear quite of few ads on the local radio and tv stations.

You do have to be somewhat careful of those advertising "Men's rights" lawyer shops.

Some of them are strictly "rip off men with false promises while we take them for all they are worth" shops. Handling men's custody and divorce claims and successfully winning men's custody and divorce claims are two separate matters. Many of these shops are just good at advertising, getting clients with brave promises or assertions and then handing the case off to a lowly paid associate whose primary goal is padding and/or attaining his "billable hours" goal. Success to them is measured in "billable hours" and "paid for billable hours".

One clue...they will be accutely interested in how much money you have available for the fight. Now most attorneys want to be certain they will get paid but these attorneys will zealously attempt to ascertain exactly how much they can extort from you over the next few months as opposed to just asking for a good retainer and leaving it at that.

Another sign...the promise to be contentious. A good pit bull fights like a pit bull for your rights and vigorously defends you. A bad attorney is just a big ole jerk to everyone on the other side such that the whole case costs more to everyone. The bad attorney will fight over every stupid detail whether it's important or not. He or she will then spend/waste a great deal of time arguing, debating, discussing irrelevant issues merely to ring up the bill.

Sometimes it is a fine line. Just remember...your attorney works for you. He/she is not your true friend however they are the best friend you've got in this process. Your relationship should be nearly ALL business, don't run up the clock taking about the weather and his/her golf game. Keep lists and minimize phone calls by having several questions lined up for ONE call as you will be billed for 30 minutes per call at least no matter how long you talk (which takes into consideration they must pull your file, make notes of the phone call, add to their "to do" list).

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

I don't think this is the type of attitude you want from an attorney who is representing you. I would rather hear "why not go for more" from him.

Eph, where in SC are you? PM me I might be able to help.

Yes you definatly need a new attorney.

I had (stupidly) left my house to my WW and son when I first met with my attorney, and to my suprise after our first conversation, he said he would get me back in my house with my son. I was incredoulous, but 2 weeks later I moved back into my house and my WW left.

Also,talk to your PI. Many of the experienced, professional, PIs are quite knowledgeable of the who's who among family court attorneys in their respective community.

Very good points you bring up - side note: I noticed that the law profession is what keeps the yellow pages in business. Its incredible the number of pages. Good tip on how it works from the inside - as always Buyer Beware.

PKM,

PMs don't work here. You can e-mail me at martinst@charter.net and perhaps we can arrange an offline talk over the phone. I am in the upstate.

I will probably call around on Tuesday to see what other lawyers have to say about the situation. I agree I would have preferred a more aggressive or positive response.

eph, sent you an email.

well I did work out an arrangement for childcare so I should have that base covered now.

Okay, well keep writing everything down. If your laws are like the laws in California, the children's best interests will determine the outcome.

They will most likely look at things like daycare, each parents plan to let the children spend time with the other, any backup help that is available.

I think you are going to do okay if you document the tries and number of days where you tried to see your kids. I don't know your schedule, but put down something like the kids will be with you Monday through Friday, and with her Saturday and Sunday.

Also, I don't think that the court will allow the kids to be moved out of your state.

Need some advice today:

With everything going on as I have described I have lost some focus on my plan A initiatives. Her leaving with the kids has left me with little to no chance for direct interaction. I am working on myself, trying to make changes as necessary, but I am not getting the opportunity for showing the fruits of my labors. I guess I am needing some tips for how to show WW the carrot of plan A, while still working the legal aspects behind the scenes.

You might have to wait till you are exchanging the kids back and forth between you to work the carrot side of Plan A.

~ Marsh

Well I finished the story of my marriage to give to the lawyer. Yuck! Having to remember anything about the A just pisses me off, but then I tell myself that she chose it.

Please keep me in your prayers tomorrow as I meet with my lawyer. I need wisdom to know whether this lawyer is the right one for me to get through this fight, and if he is that I can get custody of the kids. Maybe that will rock WW's world enough to clear the fog.

IT may or may not rock the WW's mind set. Mine lost custody of our two year old son and was chastised by Judge about having our Step Daughter around this man and the day after court took this very SD and went on a weekend vacation with this loser.

The meeting with the lawyer went well. The battle (unfortunately) is on now.

I am really having a hard time separating my mindset between continuing to implement plan A and engaging in these legal matters to protect my family. Any words of wisdom?

Real simple. Let the lawyers do divorce and don't talk about agreements or anything else with WW. You do marriage and if at any time she wants to re-consider M then tell her that you are open to discussing it with no promises.

You are right! It is all out war now! Let the Lawyers do war and you do marriage if the situation arises. Apologize nor explain anything to WW. She will not get it no matter how much sense it makes. She is too fogged out. Let her attorney explain her position to her. Lay low, don't LB, DJ, don't let your anger control you, you control it. She will try and make you feel guilty, she will run the gamut of emotions and play to yours. Remember she is being manipulative.

Hang on as it will be a tough ride but one your didn't ask for but must take for your children and yourself.

God bless,

I talked to the WW tonight for the first time in nearly a week. We actually had a civil conversation. I expressed interest again in getting together to exchange Christmas presents - she said she would think about it and get back to me. Well that is more promising than in the past.

Anyway she wanted to talk about the whole separation thing and I said I only want to talk marriage and reconciliation based on MB principles and the lawyers will talk separation and divorce. And before we can even do that there ABSOLUTELY has to be NC with OM. She said she already did that and I said it has not been done completely.

She asked how can I love her after all I have done (coming back home ,calling police, etc). I said I am standing up for the family and our marriage and not letting it be destroyed. She asked why do I love her and I said because I made a commitment to love you for always and that she is the mother of our kids. We deserve the best and our kids deserve the best - that being that we are in love again and meeting each other's ENs and we are a family again.

I asked her if she wanted to come back and work on the marriage and she said "I don't know." Well, that is a lot better than "I hate you" I guess. I told her the door is open for her at any time and that I have not given up.

I thought a few times she was fishing for info that I had regarding our upcoming court date, but I stayed out of engaging in that conversation and kept coming back to I wanted to talk marriage building.

Our court date is Monday so maybe God has something in store for us this weekend. I hope and pray he does. Please keep us in your prayers this weekend that things might go well.

It's so inspiring to see the successes of others here and I want to be a part of that success as well.

Sounds like you maybe caught her on a good night. Meaning a night between fixes of OM. She may have been out of contact a couple days as she is far away at your in-laws. Anticipate the fog rolling in again when she does get her next fix.

I'll be praying for you this weekend and monday. I hope the Judge takes the time to consider the facts fully, avoid gender bias and protect those kids from your WW. This is not a vindictive hope...I truly wish the kids could be with both of you in a loving and fully recovered marriage; however, until then, it is my belief that a wayward wife is an unfit place for children.

Godspeed,

Mr. Wondering

Yeah, she made some comment about how she is really able to do anything with him while she is at her mom's.

Nonetheless, I want her to know that I am not running away from this, that I am actively involved, that I am pursuing her, that she (the W, not the WW) is worth fighting for. All this without LBing of course.

Our marriage is worth it.

I think you did GREAT!

You were the lighthouse.

I see so much change in you since you first got here.

Your willingness to grow and step up to the plate and fight this monster called A is awe inspiring.

It really is.

And you're right, this board is filled w/ heros and heroines who are fighting the good fight!

~ Marsh

Great responses, and great job! She is seeing that you no longer are a doormat. She was confused by that behavior. She didn't know if it meant that you still loved her, or you were trying to punish her. You cleared that up for her, but now she needs to trust that. See, she is not totally committed to separation and divorce. You have 1 whole year of legal separation before divorce is even an option. Yeah, 2007 may be a rought year, but you are accomplishing a lot. She RESPECTS you now. She didn't know that Eph had it in him. You clearly defined your marital boundaries. She sees how much keeping the children away from you is affecting them, and it pulls at her conscience.

Pat yourself on the back, Eph, this is a very positive step. But remember, that you are still using the stairwell on the Empire State Building, so there are many steps to come.

As always I appreciate everyone's encouragement. This is about the only place I am getting that right now and it instills confidence in me.

To all the heroes and heroines here: Thank you!!

While I was out having fun, WW called tonight and left a message about getting together. I called her back and she said she wanted to get together after the "thing" on Monday (i.e. our court appearance). I took the time to tell her a little how I feel:

Me: Where do you want to get together?
WW: What do you want to do?
Me: I want you to be comfortable. What will you be comfortable with?
WW: I appreciate that, but this for you.
Me: It's not for me, it's for us.
WW: You may not want to see me.
Me: There will never be a time where I do not want to see you.

then later:

Me: I appreciate you calling me back.
WW: Why?
Me: It means a lot to me that you called me back. I miss talking to you. I miss seeing you. I miss being with you.
(long pause)
WW: I don't know what to say.
Me: You don't have to say anything. I just wanted you to know how I feel. I will call tomorrow to talk with the kids since it is late tonight.

I am a little concerned with her wanting to get together on Monday. After things go down and allegations are made by both of us, neither of us may feel like seeing the other. I am praying for God to do something big here. We need him in a big way.

Putting on the full armor......

Stay the course. Like Bob Pure says, this is a "hero's gig".

You are doing what needs to be done for your daughters, and stepping up to the plate like a man. We don't see too much of that around here.

My prayers will be with you and your family.

Monday may be her wanting to find a way for her to have you be "friends." Please do not set yourself up for a fall. No expectations.

The best thing to do is to just listen...and then repeat your mantra. Then come back here and we can help you figure out what is what.

I do think she has glimpses out of the fog. And that is good. But the fog rarely gives up that easily. So, you have more work to do.

Also...when you meet after the court thingy

Don't forget that you can hide behind your attorney.

Meaning...you didn't say anything at the hearing

You didn't tell your attorney what to say...you merely directled him to protect your legal rights to the fullest extent of the law and NOT involve you too much as you are busy concentrating on working on yourself (being a better father, husband and individual). You may even feign some sympathy like "Gosh, my attorney was a bit over the top when he said X,Y & Z...I'll maybe try to back him off a bit". Don't go too far such as apologizing for him or yourself (other than a "I'm sorry you feel that way but I never wanted to be here/there in the first place")...because it's not your fault. Remind her she can drop the whole thing and come home to you IF she's willing to give up OM.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.-MM is right...the meeting is much more likely to be an attempt by the WW to buddy up and normalize this divorce all friendly like. No biggie...it still gives you the opportunity to Plan A her...finally.

You both make excellent points.

I thought about the whole "friends" thing. She keeps coming back to doing this whole thing civilly and as adults. Yeah, I can do that, but what I cannot do is accept that she wants to break up our marriage. I am willing to be open and honest with her, but I will discuss nothing about the case - only how to rebuild our marriage.

I also have thought about how to insulate myself from what the attorney says. I have told her that I only want to talk about building a new marriage, and that the attorney will do the separation and divorce stuff. However in her mind, since I am providing the info to the attorney then everything is from me also. I know that I am just defending the marriage from this attack.

Hmmmm, just talked to the kids and in a round-about way found out that they and WW are no longer at her mom's but are living somewhere else. I did not push to find out - it will come out soon enough.

But now I can see why she wanted to come here rather than take up my offer to meet at her mom's.

Are you sure that they are not staying at OM's home?

Don't you have GPS on her car? Where does it say she is staying?

My assumption is they are still in NC somewhere since the school my son was in here got a call from a school in NC about getting his records.

Now if there is a second OM I don't know about.....

God please don't let that be the case.

[color:"red"] good luck tomorrow[/color]

[color:"red"]be brave [/color]

[color:"purple"] stand tall [/color]

[color:"green"] and don't forget to breathe and smile [/color]

Pep

I took the GPS off a few weeks ago. Me thinks I should see about getting it back on again, especially after tomorrow, to see what happens.

Pep, thanks for the encouragement. Tomorrow is a turning point in one way or another. No matter what happens, I have not closed the door on her. I have made that clear to her.

I know it is not recommended to engage in talks about the M, but I find myself always wanting to tell her how I feel and what I want for our M. One of the things she wanted from me in our M was to know my heart - what I thought of things and how I feel about things. By engaging in this, I would be meeting her EN for conversation. Should I still back off?

1/8/06 @ 3:30 pm EST - pray for me.

You are in my prayers. If you have a few dollars left on the PI, I would definitely have him spy on the new place on the weekends, especially if you have the kids.

Prayers here also...

Hey...please remember that tomorrow is just one battle in the war. look at my history!! The ups and downs, two false reconciliations, two trips to court, etc. And now finally...she gets it.

The odds are in your favor. But you have to NOT ride the rollercoaster. Stay on plan and on mantra! Even if it looks like everything is failing. eventually, you may go to Plan B and at that time, she will know what it is like to not have you in her life at all. Trust me...she will not like it!!

The Lord will be with you tomorrow! Rest in that, lean on that. Claim that.

I am not encouraged by a 3:30 pm court time. Judges often like to wrap up their day by 4:00, go over some desk work and beat the 5 pm traffic home. When they only get a short cursory review of the facts, it is my best guess, that they too often take the easy safe route and find in favor of the wife/mother. Gender bias is still very much ingrained in our court system. No judge wants to be the guy/girl that awarded a father custody at a temporary hearing only to have some unforseen drama unfold later. The fingers come pointing back at him/her then. Finding for the mom might result in the some other unforseen drama...but nobody then questions or blames the judge. I truly hope I'm wrong about your judge.

Like MM said, do NOT be discouraged. Trust His plan. Hold your head high and respect the court (or you'll never win anything ever). This is only round one in a long war. I truly hope your judge will see to it that your children, at the very least, not be permitted to leave the state.

Mr. Wondering - Praying for the best, preparing you for the worst.

p.s.- This may be your first experience in the court system. Don't be shocked to discover that people don't tell the truth in court. Your WW may lie her butt off to get what she wants. Perhaps have a recorder in your pocket for your meeting afterwards...you may just get the opportunity to document her lies. If she's victorious...she may just get smug.

I do know the judge is female - her bio is here. I have been praying for her. I have been praying for my lawyer to get things right. I have been praying for God to close the doors for my WW to live a life apart from me, and that includes praying for "blindness" on the part of her lawyer. Everyone please do the same.

And it will be my second experience in court - I am undefeated so far <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Alright, prayers going up for you and the court case tomorrow. Exactly what are you and your attorney asking for at the hearing?

I can't believe a Judge is going to look kindly on WW in effect "kidnapping" the kids and not communicating with their father. Let's hope she has discernment and makes a good decision.

God bless you and give you strengtha and wisdom tomorrow.

The main points I am going for are:

1. Make clear my desire to reconcile
2. I get primary custody of the kids, and I don't want CS from her
3. No alimony for her due to adultery
4. No paying her attorney fees

Eph

I am in my final court on Thur - Fri

Here are some thoughts....

scratch number 1 - if a judge thinks your doing financials and custody to get wife back they wonder how sincere you are about the kids and they think your just trying to protect your wallet.... let your wife focus on money and you focus on the family.

Why are the kids out of state, that is a big no no.

You want to go to the courts tomorrow and ask/demand for status quo until full trial. That means kids in their school and at home and with friends.

BEST INTEREST OF THE KIDS. Judges do care a damn about parents rights its the kids. So the more you let your WW alter their normal patterns she can claim that it has improved their lives not harmed them.

Don't worry about the attorney fees or anything else this is a focused hearing about what needs to be status quo.

So focus on maintaining the family not the wife.

Iam in NC if you need anything up here.

I have over 12 inch of documentation that we presented to the courts and WW had a few sheets.

DOCUMENT EVERYTHING.

If you have pictures of you and the kids, get to walmart to night and put them in a photo album and take it with you, go I had the judge crying with some of the pictures of me and the kids. You have to think you have to Plan A the judge. Also remember thing will be said tomorrow to push your button, don't react - act. When your WW is on the stand look at the judge look at who is talking to her, because when your looking at WW the judge is looking at you to see if their is anger or undesirable emotion in your reaction to what she says.

Will your pastor go to court with you? You want someone in the room that could speak to about from a expert point of view. It would also make your WW very uncomfortable.

My lawyer said we only get about 15 mins for this first appearance and we only get about 8 pages of docs.

See earlier in the thread for why kids are out of state. I know it looks bad.

Yes, we will demand status quo, i.e. the kids come home with me to be at church, school, and with friends, etc. Protecting the family is the focus right now.

Vike,

I have a question for you that I would like to ask offline @
jefferyrwebb@tds.net if you get time.

Eph,

Like Vike said focus on the children and their best interests and let the Judge do all the math on alimony, child support (of which YOU SHOULD be asking for for your children, not you and for your WW to learn something about responsibility).

All the best tomorrow. We will be thinking of you.

Just wanted to say thanks for all your prayers. I will let everyone know what happens this afternoon.

bump

Court really went well - God answers prayers!

The judge awarded me primary custody of the kids. WW's attorney immediately said that WW would move back to Greenville by this weekend and asked if she keep them during the day - I agreed to this. I will pick them up after work and they will stay nights with me, but we swap every other weekend, holidays, etc (standard visitation agreements). I still have to pay CS since she has no income, but I do not have to pay alimony and none of her attorney's fees. Again, this is just the temporary agreement for the separation.

Thanks everyone for your advice, prayers, everything. God gets this victory!

Now maybe I can get the chance to do a real plan A.

Great news!!!! Now you be the best darn dad you can possibly be. Be a good co-parent and show a willingness to work with her as you already have, without shedding boundaries and principles (i.e. - NO OM around the kids, act like a mother she'll be treated like a mother, etc.)

Take the kids out in public and have others close to you see you care for and manage the kids. Make sure you have them in church.

Sounds to me like she needs to get a job! Maybe you will get a chance to do a plan A, I hope so.

Can you share more details, critical points that helped you in court so others can learn at some point. In the meantime enjoy God's victory and your children.

That's fantastic news!!!

I'm so happy for you!!!

Yes, He does answer prayers.

Was your WW surprised?

Did you meet w/ her afterwards?

Did you have to offer proof of her A?

~ Marsh

awesome

Does the order require no exposure to OM???

Eph, OUTSTANDING!

This is just the start of the race. It's important to get out of the gate fast now. If she still want's to fight for the children, you and your lawyer are going to have to treat it like war. Remember as we talked about, subpeona everything!!!! Each new subpeona will feel to her like you are closing in, and eventually she will see that there is no hiding the A. Hopefully then she will let go and settle, but if she doesn't, and you end up in court for a contested divorce, you'll need to back up the claims of adultery you've made.

Painknowsme is correct. You are still in a battle and until and unless you WW get's it and wants to do the right thing for everyone involved which is to work on the M then you need to be prepared to fight with all you are worth.

don't forget to answer this

Pep

Pepper: I'm sure it did. In SC, judges tend to say "standard restraining orders" after these 15 min hearings. Standard includes no overnight guests of the opposite sex.

BTW, she can nullify past adultery by seducing you or getting you alone and "claiming" you two had sex.

Protect yourself for any and all false allegations by carrying around a hidden voice activated recorder in your pocket.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. Wondering is giving great advice. Do not let her trick you into a 'false recovery' and have sex with you. Also, to MR. Wondering's point, I carried a voice activate recorder around with me for months and to be honest got tons of information that at the last minute I sort of let her know that I had (some I didn't have that I told her of) and she felt compelled to be truthful in deposition or face the possibility that the "tape" could come to the surface.

She may also try to bait you into a fight so be careful not to allow this to happen. Always meet her in a public place.

Great news Eph.

No, we did not meet afterwards like she said we would. She just called me now to tell me she was bringing them over in a few minutes to drop them off for the night. I am sure she is distraught.

Yes, the judge did say specifically no exposure of the kids to the OM, including phone calls. In her own affidavit, she admitted that she has continued to have contact with OM, met him one day last year (the Atlanta trip), but she is not continuing to have a relationship with him.

I keep my recorder with me at all times.

Yes, there are many battles left but I have the confidence to face them.

you are a good man

Do not believe her about not seeing the OM. Verify even if it means hiring a PI. If she still is seeing the OM has lied about it to the court and its documented and presented in final court proceedings she will look foolish and like a liar.

This could be the best thing that has happened towards recovering your M but you WW will have to decide to confront HERSELF with the truth.

Eph,

I have been where you are (twice!). And thank God for the way it turned out.

Listen to what was said above. No sex with her. Parent the kids as if she were never to return again. Learn to do this yourself. Document, document.

Your Plan A will now be made while at the same time having her miss her children. Not many women can take the fact that they lost their children. This will hit her hard!

So, dont push. Let this settle. Let her come to you. But dont gloat or rub it in. Keep on the mantra...let her see that her family continues...but without her. She can choose to be a part of the family...or live alone. Let this sink in.

Thank God for states like South Carolina and Virginia. It is too bad most of the other 48 arent like these two.

This is awesome for you and gives me hope going into my own court case..... what my lawyer said was that how goes the temporary hearing how goes the courts decision... you your on the right path, the biggest thing you can do is derail your own success. either by getting too confident or messing up... She is now on the defensive she will monitor you and what the kids say and what you do with the kids, so this is where your plan A should come into play, if you really have changed and really are better it will show here, you will handle the kids better you will deal with situations better, things will roll off as before you would react instead of act.

So you won the battle not the war.

Not to thread jack but I wanted to inject something that happend to me tonight.

We are following our LSA but are in court, On paper I get every other weekend and 3 days a week. In reality I get the kids 80% of the time..... So we are heading into the final stage of court and I am very sensitive to what goes on making sure. Tonight I let my 2 youngest play over at the neighbors (6&9) When I went to pick them up the friend mother said that her husband was having chess pains. Now my WW picks the kids up at 8pm. I get very few overnights with the girls - as WW knows CS is based on overnights but all waking hours the kids are with me - anyways I offered to watch the neighbor kids (9,5,3) and if need be they can spend the night with me after my kids go home... So I am on standby for them to come over... now my kids wanted to spend the night to help out and they always ask to stay overnight with me..... So they called their mom and explained the situation and she had been more depressed lately, anyways she said YES. So she knows that I would have 6 kids here on a school night and she knows okay with that she felt I was qualified to watch six kids overnight.... I have already written my lawyer. I think this will be huge in court on Thurs-Friday... As my sister says I am getting my case on a silver plater.

So hopefully this is a good week for both of us

Vike,

This shows that she has no qualms about your ability to manage your children and others and more importantly it shows the neighbors are perfectly willing to allow small children to come to your home for overnights. Document this and use it.

The other thing my two youngest daughter's got into a physical fight Sunday nigth and DD1(6) bit DD2 (9) cheek and left a mark. This happened on Sunday ninght and I took a picture of her cheek on Monday night and the mark is still there.

Just a taste of what is happening

BS = 21 Subpoena's I have issued
WW = 1 Subpoena's She has issued

So Eph get in the game and go, I too read the Ebook on father's right it helped.

Remember your lawyer will not win your case you will win your case. I have a very good lawyer, like him alot, but he is a passive person in this, he is doing his job. To use its personal. I ask 1000 questions and remind him of actions he needs to follow up on. I review all documents he sends out and get a copy of each item that is received. You control your lawyer not the other way around

That is really good new!!!! Now I suggest you give yourself a well- deserved pat on the back. You DID it. I know it is just temporary, but that is half the battle.

I think my lawyer was surprised at my actions. Right before we went to the court house, WW's lawyer put an offer out for no alimony, CS, and WW still with custody. It is interesting how as time went on alimony became a non-issue. They must have known I had something. I prayed and felt like the best interests of the children were not beign served.

The main reason for my getting custody was becuase the judge did not like that WW took the kids out of state and did not let me see them.

Afterwards after my lawyer told me he was a little surprised by the decision, I told him "Prayer works."

I assume that WW will get a copy of our documentation we submitted (becuase I got a copy of hers) and she will essentially know what I know now.

And yes, I agree that now she will be on the defensive and will monitor everything about me, keeping me under the microscope so to speak. It's a little scary actually, because I have not been involved significantly in caring for the kids in nearly 2 months.

BTW, I gave her a letter I wrote before we went into the court room, expressing my feelings and thoughts about her. I don't know if she read it or not. I know she will be watching me to see if my actions line up with my words.

Before I sign off for the night, I just want to say thanks to everyone for your encouragement and advice. I look at where I was when I started posting on here and many times you all had to kick me in the tail. Well it worked!! Thank you for believing in me, even when I did not believe in myself. Please stick with me through the rest of my journey.

Hopefully I can begin to pass on good advice to others who are struggling.

Kids that age are fairly easy. Try to get in a good routine. That makes things easy.

Sure hope you can cook.

I used to have dinner, and then some family time, then bath time, read them a story, and put them in bed by 8:00. I always let them "read" picture books after I read to them. They usually only lasted 10 minutes, and then I put out the light. Both my boys are now excellent readers, and it eliminated any fights about going to bed.

Keep copies of grocery receipts...to diffuse any allegation you've been misfeeding the kids.

Aren't you glad you moved back home now...WOW. I really hope I see you around this boards for years replaying your story to date. What a turnaround. Be proud of yourself. YOU did it...YOU came to MB...YOU listened, the advice is easy once you've lived through it but I'm telling you..your story is going to be bookmarked by me for the next guy that comes along fearful to move back into their own home. It would be more poignant if YOU were here to deliver the story; but, the story will live regardless.

Mr. Wondering

P.S. - Celebrate emotionally for a day or two but this is still a long battle. Treat yourself to something nice but don't let your guard down.

I hope my story can inspire others as well. I'll admit there were times I doubted I could do anything.

The next chapter (mediation) is just around the corner, though. No rest for the weary.

Eph,

Mr. Wondering is right. You had a lot of support here. But none of us...NONE of us...could fight this battle for you. I told that to you when we talked. Only you can fight this battle on the ground. Of course, He is with you in that.

As I have said before on this board...you do not have to wear a uniform to be a hero. A hero isnt someone who isnt scared. Bravery comes from overcoming those fears...from doing despite those fears. You did that!

I swear to you that one day...your wife will see that. She will remember your sacrifice for her and the kids. She will remember your stand for what is right. If she is no longer married to you, then she will go through the rest of her days with that knowledge...and that pain.

But the odds are always in your favor, Eph. And if/when she returns, it will be this stand...and the ones you still must take...that will engender respect and love in you again. Women cannot love a man they cannot respect.

You have earned the respect of so many here by what you have done. And whether she knows it or not yet...you have begun to earn hers also.

Mort,

I know you'll back me up on this because you talked to him to, but the first time I talked to Eph he was a mess and COMPLETELY paralyzed by fear of his WW. A couple of times I wanted to smack him with an MB 2x4. How many times did he have to move back in before he finally stayed? I think you have finally got it, Eph, and we don't have to worry about you any more. You'll stick to the plan. We'll just be here for some questions now and then and to offer our continued support. I'm proud of you, man!

All true Jim. And the thing that Eph needs to learn the most here is the knowledge that the Lord is right there with him. He need not fear! Eph plus Jesus equals a majority! No judge, no WW, no OM...no one can stand in the way of a man doing God's will. Sure...bad things happen along the way. And sometimes, it looks like a loss.

But Jesus made promises to the Christian. And He never breaks them. So...Eph...as you pop that cold one and take that big sigh of relief...look back over this and you will see the fingerprints of the Lord all over you.

I wanted to add something to my last post...somethign from, I believe it was in Franklin Graham's book.

But the story goes that there once was a lady (Kurd) who was in Turkey and trying to get her very sick son into a Turkish hospital. Outside the hospital, Turkish soldiers with weapons kept her from entering. You see, it was said that Kurdish people were not allowed to use that hospital. The woman was frantic.

Along walked an American soldier...with no weapon. Just that flag on his right shoulder. He saw what was going on...walked up and took the child in his arms...and pushed thru the armed Turkish soldiers and took the child into the hospital.

Now, I want to tell you...THAT is power. To be in another country and to be unarmed and to be able to do that...that soldier must have had some unseen power behind him. Right?

Same goes for the Christian. when I walked into the second court hearing this past summer, even though I had done my homework and given my attorney a good case...I came into that courtroom with my hands empty. I sat in that chair, feeling the presence of the Lord. And I again realized the power that I had by being one of His. By having that "Cross" on my right shoulder.

No one...not the judge, not my wife...had power over me that day. satan could pull all of his tricks. But in the end, he was just left frustrated!

Too often, Christians (including myself) forget the power we have. In Africa, when a tribal leader wanted to send a message to another tribal leader in another tribe, he would send a messenger, who would carry the leader's staff with him as recongnition of who he represented. Now, did that messenger have power on his own? Of course not. he was just carrying some old stick. but that stick represented something...it represented someone of great power.

Those that call on Jesus as Lord have the Lord's staff to carry with them. And as we walk through life, we can be recognized as on a mission from the great Leader Himself. We carry all the power as if we were Jesus Himself.

It is a very humbing experience when a Christian finally realizes all of this.

OK, today was a strange day. I got the kids ready and took DD3 to the lady who is helping me out temporarily and took DS5 to school. I talked with the lady who is over the school program about what is going on and what the situation is for now - she appreciated being told that so they could make sure DS5 is OK. I felt good about all this.

Then as the day wore on I felt doubts creep in about what has transpired and if I was capable as a single father to care for my kids. I prayed about 30 mins on this and felt relief for the rest of the day.

WW came over tonight to bring me more of the kids stuff, clothes, medicine, etc. We finally got to exchange Christmas presents - mainly gifts for her from me and the kids. I could tell she was not too into it and I think she did it for the kids. One of the gifts from me was the book Power of a Praying Wife - maybe she won't read it but maybe she will (I also have a copy of HNHN to give to her at some point with the EN questionnaire already printed out).

After putting the kids down I asked her if she read my letter I wrote - she said she wasn't here to talk about us. I asked her about her living arrangements and if there was anything I could do to help. She said "Find me a 3 bedroom house." I mentioned an apartment might be a better short term solution and quicker to get and she said "I don't want it to be used against me that I am in apartment." I told her I would not do that, but of course she brings up how I "used" things in court to get the kids away from her. She even asked if I was willing to let the courts decide who should get the kids. I first said I would rather that she was home, but then said I would like nothing better than for us to be able to do decide ourselves and that I would love to be able to keep the shared custody arrangement. She of course said that was only reasonable if she lived in the same city. (Internal thought - so you (WW) need to think about staying here then).

And then I felt the doubts creep in again. This woman is trying to make me feel bad for standing up for our marriage and our family. I know she is hurt - I felt the same hurt for 3 weeks, and especially on Christmas day, when I was not able to see our children. She said something along the lines of she wished she had really done something (I assume really had PA) to make it all worth it. So here I am feeling bad about having the kids, doubting if it was right to fight for them, and doubting if anything happened with OM. Regardless, I know there was an EA and she cannot deny that. So I get on here and read all these responses from everyone and chase the doubts away again! I meditate on God's promises again and chase the doubts away again!

She wanted me to think of this same scenario as if my DD were in it and what would I say to her as her father if her husband were doing what I was doing (again, as if what I am doing is wrong). I did not have a good answer at the moment, but after thinking about it I would now have to say my response in that case would be "DD, God does not believe in divorce and I cannot recommend that to you myself. You need to do whatever it takes to engage with your husband and work out the issues. Pray for your husband. God will bless you for that. Do not talk with OM ever again, and don't allow yourself to ever fall into an A again. Run from that."

So basically where WW and I are is she does not trust what I say and I do not trust what she says. How can I help us get over this hurdle as part of my plan A? As long as she is a WW I guess I trust nothing from her? And honesty is one of her top LBs she said I engaged in......

One day at a time I guess.

Also, should I extend an olive branch by helping WW to get an apartment? After all, her lawyer (after quickly speaking to WW) is the one who offered that she would be back in town by this weekend. She has no income except for my CS payments that will kick in next week.

I suggest not doing anything that minimizes or shields her from the consequences of her choices. She wants to live outside the marital home? Let her find her own apartment.

Listen to MIM....

She made this bed and she can unmake it. She is still foggy and wayward. YOU did this, YOU did that.....What about what she's done, continues to do, won't stop doing...

She is still acting entitled and selfish. Not very good mother material right now IMO.

You can do this if you believe in yourself. You do what you need to do and do the right thing and don't expect WW to notice. IF she does then great and if not as noodle says "never shield anyone from the consequences of THEIR deicisions".

Be there as the lighthouse, the lighthouse doesn't bend over and pick up the waffeling ships in the sea, the lighthouse stands tall and steady and beacon's the ships in the turbolent sea the way to the safe harbor.

be the lighthouse and make the home the safe harbor.

Don't pay for anything don't suggest anything that is opposite to what you desire... I feel the same way should I fill my wifes gas tank... no because the money she saves she uses to buy plane tickets to see OM.

Keep up the good fight

Eph -

Right after the Lord's victory, Satan is back whispering in your ear. You have to believe that it is good and honorable to stand up for your family. It will be hard for a bit, but will work out.

Don't help your wife. I do believe she is having an affair. There is no other explanation. You having custody of the kids is a wake up call for her.

Continue being a good father. Pay her the money you owe her for child support, and let her stand on her own. She has a place in your family, and she knows it. Let her make that choice.

I don't think you are going to have to be a single dad for long. I have confidence that she will be back.

Eph,

You had a slight fall here. How? Well, you engaged her in divorce talk. Talking about helping her with an apartment and the like.

If you want your marriage to make it, then you are going to have to stick with the mantra that you wrote above for the hupothetical with your DD. ONLY TALK MARRIAGE! Okay?

She wants a divorce...then she deals with your attorney. She wants to talk family and marriage...then you are the man.

Another thing...change your mantra slightly. When you talk of the marriage...say "family" instead. Such things as "of course we all want you home...back as a part of the family." She has to get more alone, Eph. She has to feel like she is losing everything...giving up not only you...but her right to be a part of this family. It is a package deal!!

You need to concentrate on Plan Aing when you can...and the rest of the time is getting things as setlled as you can for those kids. They have been thru a bad time here, and you need to give them stability now. At the same time, this needs to happen to get you in a better position for the final order if it comes to that. Her attorney is going to try to get her a place (good luck with no money!) and to get her better prepared for the next round. You must stay ahead of her! Far ahead. Dont rely on her for anything when it comes to the kids...you must do it all yourself!!

You can do this. I know...I have been there, done that! I didt know at first if I could do it. I now am a pro at it. And I am closer to my kids than I ever would have been if this had not happened. Take this time to get to know them better. You will never have this kind of time with them again!

You have done good! Dont apologize! Just dont talkdivorc stuff, dont save her from the consequences of her actions (As was said above)...and dont lose faith!

Eph,

Did you offer to let her move back in w/ you?

~ Marsh

Eph,

I found your thread throuh Vikings. Both of your stiches sound so close to mine. I laughed last night at the begining of your post how your wife went "private" keeping her purse and cell phone close by. BING my wife still sleeps with hers. I havent found an A though. I just submitted my finacial info and waiting for a court date unless she wants to drop the D. I still stand commited to the M but it is hard some days. I know.

Congrads on the victory. It made my day. I don't feel so Alone. I can see God is watching over you and you have him in your heart. I have DD 4 1/2 and DD 3 so I know that pain too. Be strong for them and be the best father you can. They need you.

Marsh - Oh, yes. I have said many times I want her to come home. I have the kids home, now I want her home. I look at it as a 2/3 victory right now. When I pray with the kids at night, we pray that God will bring mommy home.

MM - Good points. Yes, you are right I did talk divorce when talking about her living arrangements. I was looking at it as being helpful but it is helpful to her situation and not the family as you put it.

LBH - Yes God is watching over me and i give Him the victory. But like believer said above, Satan is whispering in my ear. So I repeat what I told MM in his thread - There is power in the name of Jesus Christ!!

Eph -

The worst thing that can happen between a wife and her husband is for her to lose respect for him. Your wife now has a heads up that you are a husband and father to be respected. That will help more than any plan that MB has.

Hang in there, stay the course.

You know one thing about my wife. I don't know if she is having an affair. I do know she wanted to run away to her family and take the kids. Maybe she just doesn't love me any more. She did tell me I can stop the divorce by agreeing to move away with her. Is it just because she can't leave the state with them? Kinda feels that way. As we move further toward the actual D she seems to tell me to stop the D and move. But still won't work on the M. As she see's she won't be staying home with the kids because she will have to go to work and share joint custody she seems to rethink the D. But maybe that is just an inconvinience to her and she still doesn't love me.

My point is this Let your wife make her own choice to D if that is what she wants. But let her know she has to OWN that decision. Mine won't, blames it on me. Let your wife find her own living arangements. Let her be responsible for herself. If she commits to the marriage then you work together.

believer, I think she had lost respect for me over the years.

In many ways I think she compares me to her own father and some things he did. But he walked away when the crap hit the fan. He never took a stand for the family. Whether she wants to admit it or not, I have. Maybe it scares her to see me act this way.

Often women DO compare their husbands to their fathers. They also tend to marry men like their fathers.

Please trust that you are doing the right thing. MM will probably disagree, but it is UNUSUAL for a man in our society to stand up for his family in circumstances like yours. But having a man they can respect is something that all women crave.

You can be pleasant to her, and not throw it in her face. But let her know that the family goes on, with or without her.

I just have to add this because I think it is cool.

I mentioned WW was here tonight and we exchanged Christmas gifts, most of them being for WW. Well, we still had a gift for each of the kids from WW and I, as well as my gift from the three of them. The gifts for the kids were new Bibles, and my gift was also a new Bible (The Message). WW even had my name printed on the front of it.

Well I just walked past the guest room downstairs and noticed (in the dark mind you) that something was missing from the desk - WW's new Bible (also The Message) the kids and I had given her for her b-day back in October. I think she might have taken it to church twice and it has been in that room ever since we gave it to her.

I tell you, through all this my prayer has been for God to first turn her heart back to Him, and then to me. Then I heard someone say on the radio not too long ago "There is no one God cannot reach. There is no one God cannot change."

He has a perfect plan here, folks.

Another day, another wave of doubts.....

DS5 got sick last night so I am at home with the kids today. He had a fever over 100 but it's come down now. How lucky am I that this happens as soon as they come home? Unbelievable.

WW called two times today to see how things are. I told her about DS5 being sick and we discussed if/when I should take him to the doctor. I asked her about stopping by later and told her the door was always open. She said she would call me back later.

I can't remember if I mentioned this before, but since our son was born WW has only spent maybe 5 nights away from the kids. We (her and I) never took an overnight stay away from them. Three nights were last year when she went to KY to see her brother in an opera, and the other two were when we were in the hospital after our daughter was born.

Also noticed today on caller ID that OM called here yesterday from his cell phone. Nothing is going on, huh? Riiiight.

Eph,

Get A photo or something of the caller ID indicating that the OM called YOUR home and save it.

I hope I am wrong on this one but don't be surprised if she takes this new found singleness and runs with it and makes half hearted attempts are showing people she loves and misses the children. I hope not but don't be surprised by it.

BTW...YOU are not "doing" this to her. You are not taking the kids away from her. Don't allow yourself to feel sorry for her, this is clearly her choice.

Also, don't rely on her for medical issues. She may document that on you...take charge and handle them, keeping her informed, of course.

Right now...she's saying to OM and anyone else that will listen ..."WH can't handle the kids, DS5 is sick and he's calling me wondering what to do, just another example of how helpless/worthless/undeserving he is...sheeesh"

The correct thing for you to say to her about any illness or similiar issue is "I'll handle it". If she wants to be a part of the family she merely has to give up her boyfriend and come home....until then they are YOUR family and you handle everything. YOU CAN DO IT.

Mr. Wondering

edited to add: I don't know that you actually did the above but I am reminding you anyway.

Amen to Mr Wondering's post.....YOU have the task of taking care of the children. There are other people that you can count on to help other than WW. Don't give her any ammunition regarding "helping" because you "can't handle it". She will use this against you in court.

I never call EX WW about the children and daily happenings unless I am calling to tell her that he is sick and I have and am doing this to treat him and that I will keep her posted and she's welcome to call and check on him or that I will call her if there are any significant changes.

I hope you can do some brainstorming and come up with someone to watch the children when they are sick. As a mom who raised little ones alone, that was always a nightmare.

I had no friends who wanted to watch sick kids, and didn't want to send them to daycare when ill, so I ended up taking a lot of time off work. I even got "counseled" about taking too much time off.

That is one thing about our society that is so unfair to parents. Now that my kids are grown, I have over a year of leave available (same job). When I needed it as a young mom, it was a constant problem.

WW came over this afternoon to check in on the kids and see how DS5 was doing. She sat with them and read a book to DD3 and then playes chase with DD3.

Then it happened - she saw my voice recorder sitting on the bar in the kitchen (I normally carry it in my pocket and had ust left it out) and asked what it was for. I thought 'Oh, no. Here we go." She asked if I had recorded any of our conversations and I just said yes (I don't care if she is a WW I cannot bring myself to lie to her - it used to be easy and I didn't think twice about it). This led into statements like "How do you think this will win me back?" and "How do you expect me to feel comfortable talking to you now?" Then she moved into addressing specific issues brought up in our affidavits - explaining the reason for being put on BC, explaining the reason for the preg tests, explaining that OM went with her to provide moral support, bringing up issues I need to address about myself, lack of trust, I see things as black or white, etc.

I just agreed that there were issues that needed to be addressed and I was ready to do it and that I had already started. She said something about "So I am supposed to be ready because you are ready after all this time of ignoring them?" I just said it could be done if we commit to it. Our family is worth it.

Not sure if this is significant, but she was the one initiating the relationship talks this time. Almost like she wanted to engage but just stayed on the fringe.

Sorry I feel like I just rambled on and on. I am just trying to get through all the negative emotions right now and see if there are any positived to be found.

Oh, she called me several times today while she was out looking for a place to live. I mentioned several times we had a bedroom available for her here at home.

Another strange thing - the kids do not want to talk to her on the phone. AS best I could tell, the kids were so excited to talk to me whenever I called her to talk to them thise three weeks.

Stop mentioning the available bedroom. She knows that she has a place with you. She still is denying, explaining, blah, blah, blah.

She needs to get rid of the OM, and her problems are on their way to being solved.

I definitely took the approach of telling her I had everything under control. She recommended what she would do first, and I said "Yes I had already thought exactly the same thing." The message was clear that I have things under control.

WW called again today. She is still looking for a place and is upset at the costs. She is dead set on getting a 3BR place and it's going to run about $800 for something not in a bad location. I told her she sould try to find a 2BR place or an apartment but she thinks this will be used against her when determining custody. Again, things that should have been thought about before her lawyer jumped up and said she would be down here by this weekend.

Part of me feels bad for her, but part of me does not. I guess I need to take heed of the quote in somebody's sigature that says something like not taking responsibility for other people's actions.

That's correct, Eph, she has some VERY important lessons she needs to learn. And she can't learn them if you are there to cushion the blow. I know it's hard to watch someone you love crash, but she needs this. She really does.

You love those little ones and keep working your Plan A.

~ Marsh

So she gets a 3 BR house. What then?

1. She's got to get a full time job to pay for the expensive home which results in less time with kids.

2. Because she makes more money, the formula for CS results in you having to pay less money to her for the any and all custody she is ultimately awarded.

3. She ends up putting herself on equal status with you availability wise....(ie - you both have full time jobs)

4. She has less time and energy for OM

5. A big dose of reality...real life consequences, not at all inflicted by you, for her big girl immoral choices.

She is way to focused upon 1 factor in the custody battle and ignoring the big picture. It is sad, but sometimes the the loving thing to do is to allow the wrong-do'er/addict fully incur the consequences of their poor choices. Protecting them for hitting rock-bottom only results in enabling the behavior that is hurtful to everyone including her. Stay out of the way not only so can "fall" but also so she can't blame you when it happens.

Additionally, be wary of the false recovery...she can come home if and when she gives up OM...forever. No promises to give a "try". She must walk the walk...with action, not promises to get her life back. The addict will often look for the path of least resistance to maintain their addiction...don't be that path. Maintain a wall of resistance with the stick of plan A and firm boundaries.

Mr. Wondering

Yes, it is very hard to see someone you love crash.

Just curious about a few things I thought about:

1. Could she be starting to move from withdrawal to conflict? She made several statements using "we" rather than "I" or "you".
2. Any meaning to the fact that yesterday she wore one of the outfits I gave her for Christmas?
3. Now that the kids are here, she has called everyday. Mainly about looking for a place to stay, but she calls me.

I don't know, maybe I am trying to make something out of nothing.

More later.....

Bumping for faithful follower

WW asked how the things I have done lately (hiring PI to follow her, everything in my affidavit about her and OM, her medications, her ED, things she felt were personal attacks) are in line with what 1 Corinthians 13 says love is, referring specifically to the points about love not being self seeking and keeping no record of wrong.

I got caught off guard by that, but then was guided to remember that it also says love rejoices in the truth (trying to find out about the A), love always protects (I am protecting the family), and love never fails(she should not want to give up on our M). I want to come back to these points with her in a later discussion.

It was interesting that she would pick and choose what she felt suited her.

Tell her that your love is not self seeking, it is for the children, and you are not keeping record of wrong in your heart, you are just obtaining the truth to protect your family. Her wrongs will be forgiven when she repents and comes back to God and her family.

Great points, Jim. I was updating my post to list these specific points.

Dude, if your wife would make MB principles a part of her life like you have you would have an awesome M.

Now, don't let her read this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thats really cute that she is trotting out the Bible to manipulate you into feeling guilty for CATCHING HER. I wonder, perchance, if she happened to read the part in the Bible about ADULTERY? As in, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY. Did she happen to see that little verse? Or is she on the cafeteria plan? lol

Secondly, there is nothing "unloving" about catching your W committing adultery. It was an act of Christian love to hire a PI and catch her. Unfortunately, you were forced to mention her dirty deeds in your custody papers in order to protect you and the kids from her. Sad that you were put in this position by her.

Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.



Why? She is not bringing this up in an effort to LEARN, but rather in an effort to MANIPULATE.

So, instead of giving her underhanded premise some undeserved credibility, the next time she plays the Bible card to shut you down, just flash these cards:

Proverbs 2:12-18
Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men,
from men whose words are perverse, who leave the straight paths to walk in dark ways, who delight in doing wrong and rejoice in the perverseness of evil, whose paths are crooked and who are devious in their ways.

It will save you also from the adulteress, from the wayward wife with her seductive words, who has left the partner of her youth and ignored the covenant she made before God. For her house leads down to death and her paths to the spirits of the dead.

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery..."

Amazing how a WW can turn the Bible on it's head and point fingers at a BS, isn't it?

Excellent post, Mel!

~ Marsh

Eph,

Great advice from everyone. And overall, you are doing well. I really think that the wya back for your wife is what she sees with your care and protection of your kids.

So, she has never really been away from them, huh? Okay! This is good...because the level of her loneliness will be severe...a level that the OM cannot hope to fill.

I am putting this in my update...but wanted to add it here because it is important to your sitch.

Yesterday, my wife and I went out and had a drink and while we talked, I asked her what it was that made her want to call this fall...and that is finally making her believe in us and in these principles.

She told me that the one thing that she noticed the most was my care of the kids. She said as she considered moving on after our court session last July, she began to realize that no one would ever ever love her kids as I do. Some of these guys that wanted to date her were glad she had Thursday through Monday free. It was as if she was single, to them. But that didnt sit well with her.

Added to that, she would hear about all of the things I did with the kids. The fact I never asked her for help...with anything related to them. As she said last night...that I did it all by myself.

Eph, I think your wife is going to miss your kids a lot!! As Mr. W said, even if she gets the big 3BR apartment or house, she is going to have to work. Which means a lot of hours away from home. Which means she will have little time for those kids. And that will make her even lonelier.

Added to that, she will see you and the kids continuing the family. You will be handling things without her help. The kids will be safe in their rooms at night. They will be engaged in activities with you. And all of this without her.

You need not remind her of all of this. She can see it!! She is now going to have to let it flush through.

My advice is no more helping her (your counseling concerning her apartment, for example). Right now, just Plan A her. Let her come over and have fun with the kids (and you). Make a nice dinner and invite her to stay and eat. But dont let her "do" anything. No letting her help bathe the kids before she leaves. If she wants to hang out longer, have her sit on the couch and watch TV while you get the kids ready for bed. Stuff like that!

I know this is hard. I had to do the same...when my wife was the SAHM. My MIL said she gave me 30 days before I cried "uncle." But one thing my wife mentioned last night is true...it was this time that I had them all by myself that I really got to know my kids. Better than I probably would have had she been there.

Your kids need this. You need this. And your wife needs to see you do this.

You are doing well. Understand this is a process. Her questions are just there to allow you to plant seeds of truth. Eventually, if you are consistent...my bet is she will see the truth and be back.

OK, a few more updates from this week.

WW continues to say there has been no PA with OM. Even though there has been EA, she still says that is not one of the reasons why she wants out of the M and continues to look at the laundry list of things I either did or did not do in our 8 years of marriage. I have agreed with the things she mentions and I said that I am working on some of those very things now in IC. I really have to bit my tongue to not get into my own laundry list for her. That is so hard!!

WW signed application to rent the house on Thursday. I did not have to sign anything except a statement that I am ordered to pay her CS every month that is enough to cover the rent. WW then said on Fri. that she may need me to co-sign to verify income. I have not agreed to do that, and frankly I won't because that would be supporting her desire to be apart.

If/when WW moves into the house, her plan is to do in-home child care for income so she does not have to leave the house. She will probably start keeping our neighbors little girl again for $200/month like she was doing before she moved out.

MIL asked me in a private conversation if it would be so bad if WW and the kids were in NC. I said I want and desire to be a part of my kids lives, and I do not want to be an every other weekend father and that is not in their best interests. She backed off after that.

I also learned about how God answered a prayer for me through all this. I have been praying through all this that God would close all the doors to WW living a life apart from me, and as part of that I prayed for blindness on the part of her lawyer. Well, WW told me that her lawyer told her that she did not have to let me see the kids without any agreement in place. I talked to BIL today and he said that WW withheld information from her lawyer until about an hour before the court appearance (probably info about OM and such). That sure seems like blindness to me.

I am really gearing up my plan A moving forward. Hopefully this week will go well since my son is finally feeling better.

"WW continues to say there has been no PA with OM. Even though there has been EA, she still says that is not one of the reasons why she wants out of the M and continues to look at the laundry list of things I either did or did not do in our 8 years of marriage"

This is just the regular foggy stuff that they spout. No woman keeps her kids from their father like she did over reasons like this.

I think there IS an active affair. Also I think it will end for good when she has to make it on her own.

I don't know her financial particulars, but rent is just one part of a separate residence. There are also utilities, phone, cable, gas, car upkeep, food, etc.

What I pay for my home is just a third of my monthly living expenses.

I know it is tough. Keep it up. She won't be able to keep this up for a whole year. You just keep doing the right thing, and God will take care of the rest. Just keep us updated.

WW wanted to talk about custody issues today because she would rather us work out an agreement rather than the courts decide for us. I listened to what she had to day, because I would like to be able to work this out like adults. Plus her and her mom both said it may be possible that neither of us would get custody of the kids. Excuse me, but I am not sure hoe someone could look at my situation - being in the home, kids in school and church, and around their friends - and say that I am not in a good position to have custody?

Well, her idea is that the kids could become extremely confused about being shuttled around so much since she would have them during the day and I have them at night, implying that it would be better for her to have primary custody rather than me. Of course she threw out that maybe once or twice a week the kids could stay with me at night because she has always been open to visitation, and the only reason she did not let me see them for those 3 weeks around Christmas was because she was scared of me - scared that I had hired a PI, scared that I had recorded our conversations, scared that I would take them back away from her. I am wondering if its more that she is scared that I took a stand for our marriage when she expected me to just let it die off.

I am also wondering if this is a ploy to on her part because she is afraid that I really could get full custody. Mortarman, you may have hit the nail on the head when you said that the way back for my wife is what she sees with my care and protection of the kids.

It is a ploy. She lost custody...but wants you to get scared and give in. Do not give in! Tell her that right now, you are for your marriage and want to talk reconciliation and working on the marriage. She will balk at that of course...but Eph, you are goingto have to stay consistent and stay on message. by the way, when is the next hearing? Until then, you need to solidify your position as the primary parent and show that the judge did make the right decision. You're gonna have to work overtime at this to make sure you get everything done. But for your kids...and for your marriage...you are going to have to do it.


Of course she would say this! How funny!


She didnt know anything about recording conversations until last week. Eph...this statement was a boldfaced lie by her! She was not scared of you!!


I vote for this one!!


Ding, ding, ding! You hit the jackpot!!


I know because I lived it, Eph!!! As we say in the Army...just start leaning forward in the foxhole!

Eph.... So I will post my weeks court update her and then in a seperate post. I hope this gives you strength it did me.

So I have been seperated 9 months operating off a very week LSA, which on paper gave me every other weekend and 2 days a week visitation.. in reality I had 80% of their time. each week.... So we were scheduled for 2 full days of trial this week Thur-Fri. Went to court on Thursday to find out her attorney's kids had the stomach flu..... so we didn't start until Friday and we would have to finish the second day up on another day on the courts calendar..... So friday we started the trial of our lives.

Friday - first on the stand was a friend of my WW's... known her 9 years seen and heard everything my WW has said and done... She presented a great picture of my wayward, calling her a cameleon - changing her identity to match the group she was hanging out with it was very powerful testimony. Then I got on the stand for an hour and half and then got crossed by her lawyer... can we say throwing things up to see what sticks.... which nothing did.

So we we break for lunch and come back at 2 to finish with another former friend of her's - who is our church's secretary, her former boss at a church pre-school, and a 10 year neighbor of ours.... well we sit down at 2pm waiting for the judge, then the lawyer's are summoned to the judges chamber's. I turned aroun to my sister who flew out from washington state to watch all this and told her, the judge is calling the case... I said its probably over... 40 minutes later my lawyer comes back and pull's me into a small room and said that the judge wants this ended, wants to start out with 50/50 custody..... which is what I asked her for 9 months ago... So she is a bit devistated... fantasy land came crashing down on her, she was wanting full custody so she could control and manipulate me, now we have a fair plan from the courts that I don't have to worry about her pulling any crap on me....

So stick to your guns and if you have to go all the way to the courts and even further towards D don't look back show her and her mom the lighthouse.

The guys above are dead on.

You did good.

Though you don't talk divorce/custody...it's not a bad idea to listen sometimes for a couple of reasons.

1. You get their battle plan
2. You meet her need for communication in your Plan A

Just don't respond to it. Lots of mmmmm's maybe

HOWEVER... "working it out like adults"

AIN'T GONNA WORK

1. She's an addicted wayward in full entitlement zone...she's INCAPABLE of negotiating like an adult

2. Do you think you could "negotiate like adults" with a crack-head?. NO WAY

3. Protecting her from rock-bottom is enabling behavior by you

4. YOU are the only fit parent NOW (I'm certain she was fit prior to all this and might be fit again, this is NOT some vindictive game, it's just the way it is right NOW)

Stay strong...you are in a very strong position. Reverse babble...if she thinks it would be better for the kids that they NOT be shuttled around then deny her access to them outside the marital home on ALL your days with them under the temporary order (don't speak to her about the permanent order/final hearing/divorce...stick with TODAY).

Mr. Wondering

Next time she wants to get into one of these "negotiating talks", I'd put my hand up and end it by saying,

I will never forget what it was like to go three weeks without seeing my children - I will never forget the pain that only a parent knows when the other parent has acted unreasonably and used the children as a weapon against them during the Christmas season. Your attack against me and the children was felt; I will ensure that our children know that I stand up for their family, not acting out of vengeance but ensuring that their children have their real father in their lives.

Well, WW called this morning about wanting to watch the kids during the day in the marital home until she gets in her new place. Funny, because Sunday when that was brought up she did not want to do it for fear of confusing the kids. Her statement today was she did not want anyone to think she did not want to spend time with her kids or for it to be miconstrued that way.

I think she is not happy with the consequences of her actions right now.

Why does she have to watch the kids in the marital home? What amount of custody was she awarded by the court (daytime while you are at work)? Why doesn't she have a job yet?

I smell something rotten. I don't like her not having real life responsibilities like a job. She could use all of this against you in court. Example: Get's away from OM temporarily (no plans to stay away), get's IC, spends more time with children than court awarded declaring herself as primary custodian, seeks CS and spousal support from you, tells Judge that she can be at home to care for the children while you have to work so that you can send her a check (while she plays house with OM) and see your children 4 nights per month or at best every other week.

I don't like it others might.

Here's the problem...

If you were headed to divorce (and not interested in saving your marriage), then I'd say "no way" to letting her watch them in the house. If it is her time, then she gets them. If it isnt her time, then she doesnt. If you allow her to watch the kids during your time, you WILL undermine your custody!

That being said, since you have said you want to save the marriage...and you are not in Plan B right now...then you have to be able to Plan A her. And maybe letting her watch the kids on HER TIME in your home, may be the way to go. It keeps her in the house for a little while, with the kids. All the while, she knows she lost. So, looking around the house and being there, knowing hsei s choosing to leave...and leave the kids...should be very tough on her.

But, again...there are risks! She could use that time to take stuff out of the house. Or to get more time than she was given by the court. or even try to portray you as not being able to take care of the kids. These things are all possible.

I would check with your attorney. In my case, I won custody the first time...and then we reconciled. No more OM...and 18 months of us together in the same house...we ended up back in court. But, in the end...the second hearing went almost the same as the first. Why? Because during all of it...while she was with me and while she was gone...I made sure that I was the guy doing the work with the kids. My wife had a track record with the court...abandonment, adultery, etc. She wasnt going to escape that with a few months of flying right.

So, check with your attorney. I think if you keep your eyes open...make sure you document everything...and make sure she doesnt get one second of your time with them alone...then I dont think you will have too much of a problem.

But, as I said...check with your attorney!

This certainly is a double-edged sword.

Thinking aloud...perhaps you can suggest that she contact her attorney and write it up for presentation to your attorney. This is a consequence in itself and an documented indication that she's doing the requesting and you are doing the decision making for those kids. It also keeps you from negotiating custody issues with your wife and places that with your attorney who can and will insert certain conditions upon such visitation.

Verbal agreements are a no-no.

What happens if you ever desire to go to Plan B???

Mr. Wondering

Eph,

Mr. W, MM and I are close in how we see this......Ups, downs, risks, rewards, etc.

What I still don't understand is why is you WW NOT EMPLOYED (or does she work the night shift and I missed it?) She needs a dose of the real world and NOW. It also will help you in custody case if it goes to court or M is not saved. She will not be able to state how much time she has available to spend with the children in lieu of a nanny, child care, after school program, grandparents, etc....
How is she paying her bills (you paying them?)? Make her accept responsibility for her own finances.

OK, just to explain some more.

She is waiting to hear back on the house she is wanting to rent. She hopes to move in this weekend.

She is not currently working. Her plan is to do in-home child care. Obviously that will not bring as much in as if she was working outside the home. Maybe she thinks she can live off my $940 CS payment plus whatever else she brings in (maybe an extra $200 - $300). I was also ordered to pay the lease on the van she has, plus the insurance, so that is not an expense she has to worry about. She probably could find a way to make it.

So, the arrangement as it is now is that, once in her house, I would take DS5 to school at 8:30am and drop DD3 off at her place. She would pick up DS5 from school at 1:45pm, then have them both at home until approx 5pm when I would get them and take them home with me. From a timing perspective, I would have them from 5pm - 8:30am the next day (15.5 hours), she would have them for 8.5 hours.

So, she is wanting to fulfill her role this week but would need to do it in the marital home becuase her current housing is in NC. So it's not like she is taking any time away from me.

Let me know if that make it any clearer. Thanks for the tips, and I will check with my attorney.

Quick tip

For IRS purposes...where they spend the night IS more important than the actual hours spent....so you are good there.

I wonder if the court would frown on you NOT allowing your wife to care for your child in her "in-home" care business??. Perhaps even "in-home" daycare needs to be licensed in your state and meet minimum standards and your viable excuse would be that you determined it's not suitable for you children and you prefer them at a licensed facility OR your home...while you work.

Might be a consideration depending on where you are at in time.

Remember...if and when this is all final you can choose to make any arrangement you want (with the caveat that you don't set yourself up for another round of custody hearings later). Listen to your attorney and hide behind his/her advice if need be.

W

I agree, and I am definitley trying to save our M. Of course she could care less, but I am doing it because it is what I want to do and I believe in all my heart is is the right thing to do now. How long? We will see.


I agree. Even if it is for only 3 days this week. She will have to get up at the crack of dawn to be at the house by 8am. She will see how we (kids and I) are trying to make the house our home. She will have to leave in the evening.


Yes, I am concerned about taking things from the house. As I described above, she won't be getting any more time than what the arrangement is now, and it would be a real stretch to portray me as not being able to take care of them. They lack nothing except their mother, my wife, in the home every night.


Eyes and ears are open and hands are writing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Eph,

Okay I get it a little better BUT here is what I don't get?

1. You have primary custody BUT you pay her CS of $940.00 per month.
My Question: Why? Secondly, would you have to pay her this CS if she would get a real job, 40 hours per week with benefits and responsibilities and such. Does she have any education? Are there no job opportunities where you live?
Why does she get to sit around collect chil support, potentially involve your children in what in effect will be a day care facility, potentially have OM come around during the day and before you pick up the children, and then pretend that she somehow is the primary caregiver when you return to court by saying that you only care for them a few hours before bed time (she's doing homework, bathing, lunch, dinner, etc) I may be way off here but I don't get why she doesn't have to go out like the rest of the world and get a real life job.


In short, it seems to me that you have the burden of keeping your WW up while she has a BF and prepares a case for her being the children's primary caregiver for final court hearing if M is not saved. Help me understand. I could be missing something.

Hope & Pray,

I have custody the majority of time with my kids. The reason in Virginia (and I am guessing it is the same in South Carolina) is that of how much each party makes. I have the kids 65% of the time...but pay my wife $300 a month (at the time, I made more then her...just a little more). It's all based on a formula in the law.

Yep, if she would get a real job and have signficant income the my CS payment would go down or go away completely. She has a BA in Psychology


I don't get this either. Right now, it's a simple mathematical formula that says my income is X, hers is Y, X is significanly bigger than Y, so I have a CS payment. Right now she wants to stay home with the kids just like when we were together. I don't think reality has set in yet for her.


My thoughts exactly, but I am taking the high road here and doing what is right. Don't get me wrong, I am making my own case for why I should be the primary caregiver should things not work out. As I mentioned earlier, I think she is scared she may not get custody and that is why she wants to wheel-and-deal so soon after the first court hearing.

You know, I can't say I always understand how God works, but I know he does. It's evident that his hand is all over what has happened so far. I'll be OK, he will make sure of that.

I understand that MM and recall your sitch perfectly. BUT, your wife holds down a job, a real job, (not picking up aluminum cans or something). Wy does Eph's WW get a free pass not to have a real job that requires her to be at work 40 plus hours a week? If she did would he have to pay as much or any depending on her new income level?

What I am more concerned about is her somehow appearing to clean her act up a while, start documenting her time with the children (bathing, teaching, playing, feeding, etc) vs. Eph who has to work a full time job and only has the children about 4 waking hours per night. If she already has them fed, bathed, etc when he picks them up she is going to say he is just a glorified babysitter for a few hours a night??

She is only able to collect the $940 or at least that much because she is unemployed. She also would have to make arrangements for a support system, pay a nanny, after school care, etc if it wasn't so convienent for her to keep the children during the day (because she doesn't work).

I could still be missing this but I am worried about how she and attorney may try to spin this if it goes to court.

Okay. I am not as far off on this as I was beginning to think. I am pretty much right on.

If she would use her 4 yr degree to get a real job making some decent money not only might you not have to pay her CS but she would also have to change her custody to something more akin to traditional visitation or every other weekend given you were awarded temp. custody of the children. I vote for this in case things don't work out. There should be some push in my mind from your attorney to hers or something for her to get a job (heck, send copies of job openings that she would be qualified for, etc.)

I'm no financial genius, but she will never make it on child support and day care. I forget what apartments run where you live, but the money is just not there.

I would encourage her to get a real job.

Hey guys...

The only thing Eph should be talking to her about is the marriage. Not divorce. Not about her getting a job. not about her apartment. He should not help her physically, financially...nor even with advice...to end the marriage.

Let her fall flat on her face. It is inevitable!!

MM,

I agree and I didn't mean to convey anything other that Eph should be working on the M and let his attorney talk D. BUT I want to make sure that Eph's attorney protects him from anything conjured up by her and her attorney to more favorably posture herself for a court battle should one materialize (I hope it doesn't and Eph has a success story for all to read and learn from).

MIL has been calling asking if we (WW and I) have come to any agreements about custody. I said yes, I want to stay as is for now to let things settle down. MIL is also "worried" about the guardian appointing custody. I told her there is no time limit, that we have a year to sort all this out. It's starting to feel like she is pressuring me on behalf of WW. It's getting old.

We start our new life journey winter classes at church tonight. One of the classes is Divorce Recovery 101 - "This class is for adults who are going through divorce or separation and are looking for comfort,
healing and accountability with others who have been through the painful process of divorce." It's based on the principles of DivorceCare. Even though I am not talking D, I just wonder if this would be a good support group to get into. I need to read up on it a little more today.

Yup. She's trying to pressure you on behalf of WW.

Next time she calls and starts in just thank her for her concern and 'support' but you really have to run.



It sounds like it might be helpful.

~ Marsh

MM is exactly right. Let your wife worry about the consequences of her choices.

You are going through separation, and I think the class would be very helpful. Church recovery classes will give you good Christian support.

Thanks Marsh and B - I like the idea of the class as well. I didn't know if anyone on here had been to those before. Maybe I will post a separate thread on that.

If it is anything like my church, it will be mostly women. So be prepared for that.

Yep, there was only 1 other guy and about 11 women. Very broad age range also.

I think it will be good, give me a chance to speak verbally ( instead of typing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) I thought of a lot of personal questions I have to help me through my own healing process.

Oh, yeah I almost forgot. This morning when I was moving the kid's car seats from my car to WW's van, I left a copy of HNHN and the EN questionnaire in the passenger seat in the hopes that she might pick it up and read it (I have my own copy as well). Just planting a seed.....

Glad you went!!!! I think it will be good for you, and you will be good for the others.

Funny, as I listened to some of the people talk I was thinking the following to myself:

Do you and your spouse know your ENs?
Do you know you both have a love bank?
Do you LB each other?
Have you read SAA?
You can't change your spouse, only yourself.

I guess I am in deep here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But that is wonderful!! You will get support and be able to help the others. Plus you are a great example of taking care of your family through all of this. I'm sure you will be an inspiration, just like you are here.

Eph....Hi, I don't post much here anymore because I saved my marriage and my FWW and I are too busy together!!!

Your story (as do so many others here) ring so true. Mr. W, Mortarman, believer and many other guided me through the toughest parts of my life....and my DW and I are well into recovery and doing BETTER THAN EVER!! Please take a look through my threads below. Skim through it if you don't have too much time, but I believe seeing success stories helps. There are many more success stories out there that aren't "seen" as much on these boards, just due to the fact that the need for advice seemingly diminishes.

Some out there (esp. Mr. and Mrs. W) are extraordinary, and have seeming took it to heart to help save so many marriages. They are gifts from God.

God bless. I'll keep following.
MWIL

Hi Eph -

I haven't posted to you before, but I've been following your thread. I wanted to throw some things in regarding your wife's idea to run an in-home daycare.

It's not the lucrative income she may be expecting. I'm not familiar with SC law, but my wife ran an in-home daycare for 2 years where we live (OR). There are probably 3 "levels" - unlicensed (where you're basically a babysitter), licensed and certified. Getting licensed is pretty easy if you have a home in good condition and no criminal history. There are limits on how many kids you can have when you're licensed, and your own kids count against that limit (IIRC). Certified increases the limits on the number of kids, plus some other things that I don't recall anymore.

Running an in-home daycare (if she's serious about it) is a lot of work - taking care of the kids, doing the paperwork, taxes, etc. The best months my wife ever had only brought in about $2,000 (before operating expenses and taxes), and there were only 3 or 4 of those out of 24. Generally, I'd estimate that the daycare about broke even most months.

If she's looking to do it as her primary source of income, she's most likely in for a shock. It's most likely a way for her to generate some income (without having to get a full-time job outside the home), get time with your kids, and time to see OM. (My wife's A began as an EA as the daycare was winding down, and she actually took 3 days off to see OM where it turned PA).

The negative for you, as I see it, is that it would not positively affect what you're currently paying in CS, and would give your wife a good chunk of your kids awake hours with her.

I hope this helps (or at least is neutral). You're in very good hands here, and getting lots of advice. We're all pulling for you.

MWIL,

Your thread was referenced somewhere and I started reading through it but did not get back to it. I do want to read it all - as I said somewhere above, the success stories of the heroes and heroines here at MB definitely inspire me to press on towards the goal. Thanks for stopping by and please post anytime. I appreciate the input of everyone!


Healingbird,

Thanks for your comments as well. Her idea is along the lines of babysitting - as far as I know she has no plans for getting a license or certification. Her main thing is to stay home with the kids - something we both agreed with in our marriage. But now that she wants to make it on her own I think she is in for a serious dose of reality with regards to finances (the same reality telling me I may have to sell our house and downsize). - thus she wants me to co-sign on her lease to which I plan to say "No way!" She cannot pick and choose how she wants/needs me, it's either all or nothing. My prayers go out to you as you deal with the false recovery.

I think I am starting to reach a place where I realize that if I cannot be her husband, then I cannot be anything else but a co-parent. As I sit here right now, I don't know if I can be friends - it would hurt too much. Maybe that will change in time. Is that wrong? Anybody else dealt with that?

Hi Eph -


That's pretty much the point I've reached as well. I don't think it's wrong - it's a natural reaction to immense pain.

I have told my wife that I want all of her - and I'm willing to put in the time and effort to get there. But if I can't have all of her, I'll choose none of her.

My reasoning is pretty simple. How can I maintain any sort of relationship (beyond that which is required by our kids) with someone who can hurt me as much as she did, when that same person shows no remorse, care or concern for the pain her actions inflicted upon me?

I may still be in the bitter stage - I don't know. Will time change that? Hard to say...really depends on what choices she makes.

But yes, I can understand where you're coming from, and empathize with you. It doesn't mean I won't forgive her - I don't feel that my forgiving her is dependent upon her remorse (a hot topic on the forums at times). I do believe that I have to forgive to move on and heal though.

I do hope and pray that your situation turns out for the positive. You're doing your part and more, so hang in there.

WW signed her lease today without any help from me. I didn't ask for any details on how she did this.

She came over to see the kids a little after 5 and I asked if she wanted to go to dinner with me and the kids. She did not want to go at first, but agreed after the kids asked her several times.

The kids and I talked a ton in the car. Hopefully she sees and hears what she is missing out on and hopefully caught the scent of my new cologne (Cool Water by Davidoff. Sorry Mr. W, no Bulgari Aqua yet)

Tried to make small talk, no R talks. Asked if she watched any American Idol this week (her response was "How?"), talked about DS5 being sick again. She is supposed to be moving into the her new place, but she didn't ask for any help. I guess my message of not helping her do anything that supports separation or divorce is getting through, and I guess I am being strong in giving that message.

I just wish I knew whether she sees any strength in what I am doing. If she does she is not giving me any indication. Funny thing is, her and her mom are the only ones not seeing it. Every one here on MB, my counselor, pastor, friends, me - we all see it. Who knows if/when she will.

I just wish I could see the entire picture.

Oh, and part of me wishes I really knew the true status of EA/PA and if there was truly NC with OM. Does it really matter and what would I do if I knew these things? The end result is she is still not wanting to work on the marriage and I am in plan A. This is why I pray for her every night and have been since October.

She will see your strength and your changes. It just takes time. You are doing very well, with a good Plan A and boundaries.

Good choice. Cool Water by David Davidoff (what a name) is my favorite cologne as well.

I picked up a few others to try as well:

Acqua Di Gio - Armani
Pi - Givenchy

Both highly recommended in reviews here. Let's see which one gets a first response <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, the kids and I had a great day today. Slept in a little and then did some shopping for some clothes items they needed. Later in the afternoon we went for a walk on a nature trail in one of the local neighborhoods and then went to a local park and did swings, slides, etc. A great time was had by all. I was a little nervous about the weekend but it is going really well. We need to stop eating out so much, though. It's just too easy to do that.

We finally took the Christmas tree down tonight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WW got to hear about our great day over the phone when she talked to the kids.

My ALL TIME, knock me over, favorite men's cologne is Fahrenheit by Christian Dior. It doesn't smell that wonderful when first sprayed on, but after about an hour when it settles, it just makes me MELT! OH BABY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WW came over today to get stuff from our house to take to her new house. Don't worry, this is all part of the initial division or marital property. I have only agreed to the smaller things like extra dishes, pots, pans, etc. No big stuff yet like furniture and such.

Anyway, at the same time she was here I was meeting with a Realtor to get our home up for sale. I think God will either allow me to sell this thing fast or open a financial door somewhere that allows us to stay here. WW had to sign and initial the paperwork as well. Afterward she was visibly upset and I could see she had been crying. I tried to get her to open up, asking her to talk to me and help me understand what she was upset about. She just said there was nothing to talk about. This is unfortunatley one of the typical responses I get when I try to engage with her - I either get snippy replies, no reply, or "there is nothing to talk about."

When I went up to our bedroom, I saw that she had left on my pillow one of her little wall plaques with I Corinthians 13:4-8 on it. I mentioned before how she had tried to say that the things I have done are not in line with these verses. I talked about this in IC tonight, and I am going to write out how I believe everything I have done IS in line with these verses. I'll post my draft and would love everyone's feedback.

I will say that this is the first time she has left any sort of item like this for me to find since I got a card from her back at the beginning of October when all this mess started. Knowing that, a part of me wants to see this as her reaching out for something or some form of expression of her heart (is that a DJ?)

Maybe she got a dose of reality today - moving stuff out to her new place, me putting our house up for sale, her having to still leave the kids. But then maybe she is finding some kind of strength by being on her own. After all, she took care of finding the new place, getting all the utilities setup, etc. Things she has never had to do and maybe didn't know if she could do - and now that she has done them saying "Look at me, I can take care of myself." Almost as if this whole thing is empowering to her. I would love to her from some other FWWs if this is the case.

So now that she is back in town and we will be doing kid exchanges daily, I can begin to plan A her more consistently.

Skip the letter. Seriously, it will fall on deaf ears. She has to traverse this pit by herself. She is not reaching out to you...she is tormenting herself and she doesn't know why...but you need to allow it to occur.

You did good trying to get her to talk. Maybe she will someday. When she does it will be a diatribe of nonsensical fog babble that you'll need to just listen to and listen some more. You can ask poignant questions but hesitate to offer solutions. Tend to agree. Reverse babble and extend the conversation as long as possible to meet her need for communication. Admire what you can but other than that stay out of God's way and try not to take the fog babble personally (i.e.-stay calm).

Mr. Wondering

Nope, not a DJ. I believe she was trying to connect w/ you too.

If it had been left on the kitchen table or any place else besides your pillow, I'd say she was trying to manipulate you into letting her have the children, as she had attempted to do before...

But, since she left it on your pillow...I don't know...it seems more intimate.



She's not doing these things b/c she wants to "grow as a person." She's doing them b/c she's been forced to. If she could have stayed w/ her mom, she'd have been perfectly happy.

I seriously doubt she's feeling "empowered". Nobody wants MORE responsibilities. She wants more FREEDOM. Responsibilities are only going to curb her freedom and make her question what she gave up w/ you.

~ Marsh

The letter is more for me so I don't get the deer in the headlights look whenever she brings it up. However, I feel like God is tugging on my heart to give it to her as a way of showing that I am making attempts to love her as He loves her. I need to pray about this.

Marsh, regarding my "empowering" comment - the reason I say that is because I can remember several instances in our marriage when she made comments about not having experienced life before getting married, i.e. living by herself, working, etc. So by her being "successful" in what she is doing I could see how, in the short term, she could see it as empowering. However, I agree that she wants freedom and more responsibilities will definitely make that harder.

BTW, I would be interested in hearing your (or anyone else's) comments on the letter she wrote me that started all this. I wonder if I can scan it and attach it somehow. I'll check on that.

Oh. almost forgot. She still has not said anything about me leaving HNHN in the van last Friday. Maybe she is reading it, maybe she threw it away. I figured if she was going to get pissed about it she would have just given it back and made another snippy comment. I'll give it a few more days and then ask her about it.

Hey Eph,

Mr. W had great advice!

Here is my view on your wife's actions with the plaque, etc. And it has to do with a conversation I had last night with my wife.

She told me that she has thought long and hard about "why" she decided to call me back in October and try to come back. She said the biggest reason was the kids and how I had stepped up. Now, mind you, I had been doing the same things for the past 4 years with the kids. But here is why she noticed now.

She said after court this past summer, she figured that I was going to have to work all week, and then have my weekends full with the kids. She thought this was perfect for her, as it would leave her weekend open for her. But she also didnt believe I would do it. She believed that I would leave the kids with my mom or whatever...and head out on some weekends to go out with friends, date, or whatever.

But, she said, I didnt do that. Every time she called to talk to the kids, I was there. Many times, she called and didnt reach us...as we were out doing something. So, in October, she called and found out that the kids and I had headed out bowling. And that's when it clicked.

She told me last night that she just got off the phone and thought "He really is totally interested in our kids. He is spending all of his time with them. No matter what the Troll or any other man ever offered me...they couldnt offer me that. No one was ever going to love my kids the way he does."

With that, she began this process of thinking about me and the other things I offered. And it was at the point where we first really started talking back in November and December, that she realized that she had everything she needed and wanted all along.

But, Eph...that did NOT happen over night. That took months and months of continually showing her who the real Mortarman was (is). You see, she could tell herself while we were together, that all my attention on her and the kids was due to me "faking it" in order to stop her from leaving. But, once she was gone...in her mind, she didnt understand why I continued my behavior and attention with the kids. For some reason, it didnt make sense to her (I say this because I have always been a good Dad...but in the fog, they dont remember that!).

So, my point is this. As Steve told me, and I have told you before...the greatest asset to your marriage is those kids. They are a tether to you that she cannot break. The fact you have custody will keep her in contact with you...and with her living with the consequences of her decisions.

That is why you need to step up and be "super Dad." I'm not talking about anything outrageous. I am talking about taking charge and showing your wife a man that will take care of her kids, raise them the way the two of you had intended...and do so with no help from her. And my call is to say little about your time with them. If you tell her, it will look like you are trying to manipulate her. Instead, you just do it without telling her what has gone on at home (unless she asks). And let her live in the silence of her new apartment and wondering how you all are doing.

Of course, the kids will let things leak when they are over there. "Mom...guess what? Dad took us to the zoo on Saturday!" "Mom, look at the necklace Daddy bought me." "Mom, you want to read a few chapters of my new book with me? Dad and I have already read up to here."

And so on.

To talk with my wife now out of the fog, is to really understand what happened and what she saw while in there. Much of what you do and say is so skewed by the time it gets into her head, that it doesnt even come close to representing reality.

I wish I could tell you that you will hear a large "popping" sound today as her cranium disengages from her waste disposal unit...but that aint how these things work. It will take time...and consistent work on your own to permeate that thick fog. Remember, one screw up may kill off weeks of great work. You really do need to have your emotions in check and stay on message.

Finally, I will say that there is a second reason to really delve into your Daddy role right now. And it is because you will never have this kind of time with them again. Later, if yoru wife comes back, you will be spending time with her. Or if you divorce and remarry you will be spending some of that time with your new wife.

But, right now...they have 100% Dad. You will get to know these kids like you would have never gotten to know them before. And them knowing you. So, count that as the positive side of this awful mess. That you and your kids will become closer than ever possible before.

And in the end...your wife will notice.

What a beautiful post, especially the last part.

Quite a day today with my own rollercoaster:

Driving into work today I heard the song "When God Ran" by Phillips, Craig, and Dean, and I broke down crying thinking of how much God loves me and that he would run to me when I turn to him. It got worse when I mentally changed the words to "When My Husband Ran" and I pictured myself running in the same manner to WW when she decides to come home and become a FWW. That picture is frozen in my head now - me holding her tight and swinging her around, and me saying "My wife has come home. Don't you know I still love you."

WW called several times about small things at her place - main thing was the heat did not work (she stayed with her mom last night) and someone was supposed to come and fix it during the day and she needed blinds for the windows. She called later and said the heat was working and could I come and help her get the blinds up. I had to pick the kids up there anyway, so I figured I would show some love and be a handyman. I also took her a dozen roses to give the place some color, and I have a thank you card to give her in which I want to write something like "I don't want to just meet a few of your ENs some of the time, I want to meet them all all of the time."

Well it turns out the heat still doesn't work there and I could tell she was extremely frustrated by that. She got short with the kids, was sitting on the floor next to a little space heater, looking really sad all by herself. I offered her my jacket, but she just tossed it aside. The kids and I had a ball talking about their day and they helped me with the blinds. WW is staying with her mom again tonight. She did actually thank me for my help as I was leaving. I sent her a TM later tonight saying "Sorry about the heat not working, I know you are frustrated. Hope tomorrow is better. Drive safe."

After the court date, I have been in more of a mindset to be still and let God do His work, but I pray that He would allow me to play an active role.

Mortarman, thanks for your comments. You are right about being Super Dad now and taking advantage of my time with them now. I see a difference in my interactions with them already. Gosh, I hope my journey has the same destination that yours has reached. Thanks for hanging in here with me.

Session #2 of DivorceCare tonight at church. I felt rather raw after last week's session and probably will again tonight. I'll post an update later tonight.

hang in there

you WILL be ok

Pep

Pep, I know I will make it and God will take care of me. I just want us to make it together. The desire, the need, for my W is SO strong right now - physically, emotionally, spiritually.

I grabbed one of WW's CDs from the van this morning to see what she is listening to - big mistake. Affair music through and through - ex. "Lips of an Angel" by Hinder, "Naughty Girl" by Beyonce, "Far Away" by Nickelback, many others I can't even remember now and some I didn't even know.

That really threw me for a loop all day - feelings of hopelessness, despair, etc.

Tonight in DivorceCare (DC) we were looking at areas of loss we now have in our lives. Just thinking about the loss of a friend, lover, parenting partner, hopes and dreams of our future together - all that down seemingly down the drain right now.

Add all this up - it's been a lousy day and I am emotionally exhausted.

Just thinking about how I am going to respond to WW's requests for my help at her new place. I see it as meeting an EN. I don't view it as enabling because she is already there by her own means. I guess where I am torn is that I am meeting an EN that goes against her being with the family. So confusing right now.

I could use some prayers

Eph - I see the hand of the Lord all over your situation. You got custody, she moved out, her furnace wasn't working. This won't last.

Hang in there and do your grief work in Divorce Care. You have to do it, one way or the other. Even when your wife comes back, there will be a wake of grief.

((((Eph))))

Many are praying for you.

~ Marsh

Tonight I was at WW's house helping rearrange furnitue - meeting her EN for Domestic Support. I took dinner over. I left her a card under the covers of her bed, thanking her for asking for my help (it hasn't been that long that since she told me she hated me)- but I also wrote that I wanted to meet all her ENs, not just one or two.

She is alone every night. She looks miserable, her place is still a mess. She would ask my opinion on where to move stuff - I would give a few options and tell her to do what she wanted to do. In my head I'm thinking it's her place - not the family's. I told her to let me know when she wants me to help again with putting up the blinds, I am waiting on her to come to me, not forcing the issue.

A few things I took notice of:
Her Bible is out (remember the night I noticed she took it)
She has a few devitional books - one of them is by Dobson
I didn't see HNHN anywhere
I did see the plaque I gave her for Christmas with a poem titles "I'd Marry You Again"
I was able to touch her lightly when walking by. Once on the back, once on the arm, (last night I rubbed her neck).

Small steps, baby steps.

She has the kids this weekend, starting tomorrow night. I have already made plans to have some fun myself. But I do need to spend some time cleaning house since the house is on the market.

Holding steady.....

Good job, man. The more and more you meet her needs, the more and more she will open up to you. She is realizing how tough it is to maintain her new place. She is needing you. She's thinking to herself, "hey, Eph ain't so bad after all." She'll realize that OM isn't going to take care of her kids. If you do have to go to plan B, she'll realize all that you've done and how hard it will be to continue on without you. Just be patient, you've got a year. You are doing well identifying the small signs of hope. That is what we BSs need to focus on to keep us going. You are still in my prayers.

Gosh, I hope she is receiving what I am doing. WW gives no indication. That's why I try to keep everyone here updated - this is the only place I get consistent support from.

Oh, forgot to mention a few other things last night. When I was moving her day bed to another room, I told the kids "Mommy and daddy used to sleep on this bed before you were born." I also commented about how I remembered the time when we put the same bed together when we first started dating, and how I knocked myself in the head somehow doing that.

And some irony here - her new place is 1/2 mile down the road from the church we were married in. She has to either drive by it or the church we were going to when she left the house (the kids and I still go there) when she goes anywhere. Do you think God might be trying to get her attention somehow?

Went by WW's place to drop of the kids medicines that I forgot to pack last night. She was in the back of the house while I was in the living room with the kids so I did some quick snooping. Here is what I found:

I saw another cell phone laying on the couch and I suspect it is the one she got from OM that she supposedly gave back. I think it is time to subpoena the phone records and see she is talking to OM while the kids are there.

She is taking notes on me and my care of the children. Even took pics of them looking "tired." When she talked to them last week in the evenings she made a point to ask what we had for dinner.

I asked her about church Sunday morning, if I could pick them up and take them and drop them back off. Her response was "They are with me this weekend." I have no idea if she plans to go to another church in the morning.

I then asked about picking them up Sunday night on the way to evening services (they start at 6pm) and she said that she would be dropping them off at the time church started. I asked could she be flexible and let me pick them up at 5:30 since she had them before the official start time of 6pm on Friday. She said "I don't know" and I said to think about and we would talk tomorrow.

Now this really pisses me off that she would play these games. I guess I should have expected it. It appears to me that she is trying to be vindictive about the whole situation.

Well, before I left I gave her something I bought while shopping today. It was a cute pink sweatshirt with the hand warmer pouch sewn into the front. I told her I saw it and thought it would look good on her so I picked it up for her. Just a small gift to let her know I was thinking of her while I was out.

I am trying to not get bogged down, but this is so hard. It feels like the battle I am in is so much more difficult than some of the others here because she has moved out. I know, it's a marathon not a sprint. It just feels like it is slipping away each day. I miss my wife, faults and all, and it is so hard to not tell her that every time I see or or talk to her.

Just hanging on by the grace of God right now....