Yes, I'd find a reason to change the surgery date.

~ Marsh

I mentioned it to her when I picked up the kids tonight. I'll post the details of that conversation after I get the kids taken care of for the night.

Just wanted to say that I think you are getting some wonderful advice and I agree woth H&P about your WW not getting it...

IMHO, I think that she is a lost cause...but like I said that's JMO!

I love your determinationa and thought process on the case issue...

You GOT this and I hope that you aren't worried about it!

I don't think her scheduling the surgery is so awful. She probably feels better about doing something. And I have a lot of hope that she will turn around. You are doing an excellent job. Hang in there, and try to relax.

The affair WILL end, and then you may see your real wife again.

When I stopped to pick up the kids yesterday, then went off running around her yard and I took the opportunity to discuss it with her.

Me - I am hurt/angry/disappointed that you did not talk with me about scheduling teh surgery for DS6.
WW - We did agree on it.
Me - No, we agreed to wait until school was out. We did not agree on specific dates.
WW - Well it was either then or late in the summer. Why don't you call them and ask.
Me - I still should have been been informed. What if I had something going on at work?
WW - What was I supposed to do, call you and ask? We could have lost that spot.
Me - Yes you should have called me. I highly doubt that in 5 minutes we would have been bumped.
WW - well we have rescheduled doctor appointments before. Waht, do you think I am just making decisions on my own?
Me - Yes, it's been done before.
WW - Well you have too.
Me - give me an example
WW - Telling me what you want to do about school next year for DS6.
Me - If you will remember, I DID talk to you about it. I have not made any decisions on it.
WW - <silence>
Me - Let's go home kids.....Hey have you given any more thought to going with us Saturday to the duck race?
WW - Not the way I feel right now.
Me - Well just let me know. I'll call you.

So I have to say that based on her feeble responses she is trying to show she is taking control. As believer said, she probably feels better about doing something - but she is going about this all wrong.

I don't have a legit conflict and will take vacation but that still does not make it right. I think I will call and check, but beyond that I am not going to just up and change the date. It also works out because the weekend following the surgery he will be home and I am taking 3 days vacation the week after (Mon - Wed) to stay home with him. I think WW was quite surprised by that

Believer, I am trying to maintain that same hope - the hope that she will turn around. It seems to fluctuate, sometimes day to day.

It's a rainy day here today so the kids and I will find some craft projects to work on today. Hopefully the rain will stop this afternoon and we can make it to the duck race.

Eph,

Just stopping by to say you are doing great.

YES the WW will change day to day, moment to moment. You know my WH is the same way.

The one thing that can not change is OUR consistent behaviors. WE are the sane ones, sticking to the Plan in the hope that sanity will kick in long enough for them to see our bright lights, still shining to lead them the rest of the way out of the fog

Keep up the great work

WEll, E, you know that I thinking that you are doing a wonderful job...you are so inspiring...

I hope that I didn't add to any bad feelings...I said that given her past behavior from the beginning of the R/M...

Of course, I wish you the best and hope that youand WW does recovery your M...

I just don't feel good about her choices...i hope that you understand where I'm coming from...the last thing I want to do is bring you down! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No worries, I hear you and I see the same things.

Sometimes I wonder why I am doing all this.

For me it goes back to my other life verse, my namesake so to speak.

Ephesians 5:25

NIV - 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

The Message - Husbands, go all out in your love for your wives, exactly as Christ did for the church—a love marked by giving, not getting. Christ's love makes the church whole. His words evoke her beauty. Everything he does and says is designed to bring the best out of her, dressing her in dazzling white silk, radiant with holiness. And that is how husbands ought to love their wives. They're really doing themselves a favor—since they're already "one" in marriage.

For me, it's not a decision, it's my calling as a husband.

And boy is it a hard road sometimes. Women....Sheesh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Called WW this afternoon after the kids and I had our afternoon naps. Since it had been raining all day I told her the weather might have been good for rubber ducks but not for us humans.

So I asked her if she wanted to come over and watch a movie after the kids were in bed. She said she was feeling sick (carry over from a few weeks ago) and would just hang out at her house.

I told her we would call her later in the evening so the kids could talk to her and tell her good-night and such. (which BTW, she rarely does for me when they go stay with her).

We went out and did some shopping and ate dinner, then we drove by her house on the way home - all the lights were out but the van was there. When we got home right at 8, I called her and got her voice mail. I called her again about 30 mins later and still got her voice mail, so I put the kids in bed.

Still have not heard from her.

The kids were really looking forward to talking to her tonight. Normally they run from me when I try to get them to talk to her. I've mentioned before how this is really odd, because they love to talk to me whenever an opportunity comes up to do so when the kids are visiting at her house.

Not only is it her loss, it's their loss as well.

<Sigh>

what can you do?

Eph,

We all have our demons.

Your WW's demons are her insecurities. She can't try to control them she needs to come to peace with them, as we all do. Her insecurities will either define her or at some point she will come to peace with who she is and accept it and make the best of who she is. Right now, she tries to control it. It is her struggle. It is also why she chose you. If she lets her insecurities rule her she will only see you as a person of strength and determinition. She will regret.

You are a good man. You have a good head on your shoulders. This will work out as it is meant to be. You are doing all the right things. Keep going.

Proverbs 6:16-19 tells us that dishonesty destroys the foundation of relationships with others and with God.

Deep down inside your WW has a hidden fear that one day her dishonesty will be exposed.
+

There are at least 3 major issues that pertain to your wife that need to be addressed in order to have a chance to recover your marriage and have a marriage that follows God, brings honor to God, and gives you both the type of loving marriage you both really want. In addition, there appears to be (or at least to have been a regular part of your marriage up to now) a temper problem that you have had and have given expression to over the course of the years (i.e. throwing things). You only have direct control over this issue, but it, like the ones that apply to your wife, is not “God honoring” and needs to be under firm control and the “freedom to express anger” has to change. The operative thought here is the biblical instruction to “be angry, but in your anger do not also sin.”
God knows we are going to get angry, and there are “right ways” and “wrong ways” to communicate that something has caused an “anger reaction” in you.

Let’s make the assumption that you have recognized the detrimental effects of past behavior and have already implemented permanent changes in how you communicate anger. So you are “doing your part” in making positive marital changes in a “Plan A” sort of way that not only makes sense and makes you more “attractive,” but that also aligns you with God’s will.

Eph525 - There is a huge "distrust factor" that is operating as a major part of your wife's rationalization of her behavior and her reluctance to attempt reconciliation. No doubt this "fear" is being reinforced by the OM because it works to his advantage. In addition, your MIL seems to be also reinforcing this and is actively abetting her daughter (i.e. the lies about great-great grandmother and your visit to her). Trust is obviously a key component of any "good marriage," and with her mental state issues, she has obviously taken many things (e.g. past tantrums, calling the police) and interpreted those as "she can't allow herself to trust you." Regardless of the "rightness" or the "wrongness" of how you or I might see things, it IS how she sees things and her perception is a major impediment to allowing herself to even try Recovery.

On your part, you made a "definitive statement" on this whole issue a few months back that I believe is germane to the issue of "to Plan B or not to Plan B" as a viable option for you. Here is the relevant quotation:


Eph525 – My opinion? This statement of yours on 10/06/2007 eliminated “Plan B” as an option, or at least eliminated it as anything but a destructive action. " There will never be a time where I do not want to see you," is a statement of "trust me, I am your husband and I will not abandon you even though your actions are currently hurting me tremendously."

She has consistently seen your actions as “belying” your statements. You have admitted to a marriage of many “misspoken” words from both of you as one of the “issues” of the marriage and one of the “rationalizations” that she is using to justify her current actions.

In a post on 1/27/07 you wrote the following:

Yes, it was "interesting," but it gives you a window into her mind and how she is processing things you do, regardless of how you view them (I happen to agree with you and your statements in the second paragraph). What you have to remember right now is that you need to know about the affair, but you also have to know how she is seeing things (sort of "putting yourself in her shoes") so you can better gauge the effectiveness, ineffectiveness, or potential negative responses of all you are attempting to do to end the affair and gain the attempt at recovering your marriage.

The issues you must face regarding yourself are really the only things that YOU can control right now. You can INFLUENCE what your wife does and how she might come to end the affair and attempt recovery of your marriage, but that will actually be a result of what you do in your own actions and choices.

There is a part of her that is receptive to both the changes you have made in your self and to the part of her that does love you. In addition, she has what appears to be a genuine concern for the children and realizes the destructiveness of the separation and potential divorce.


That she is using the Scripture as a "reference point" for what "love" is indicates (despite how she was using it as a 'rationalization' for HER disobedience to those very same passages) that she WANTS that sort of love. She is using God's standard as her measuring stick of YOUR behavior (I know she is not honoring them herself at this point). The point is that God's Word offers you the OPPORTUNITY to talk to her about BOTH of your needing to be submitted to the LORD. It is THAT point that is important for ALL believers and is HOW a backslidden believer can be led back to the safety of Christ's fold.


No, it's not a "DJ," it's God speaking to your heart about the conflict in her heart and that it is THROUGH Christ that you will reach her. Yes, she will continue to "fight God" and "fight you" on this, but beneath it all she KNOWS that there is no love and no peace in being willfully disobedient to God's teaching and commands. "Human nature" is in the battle. Her mental illness and its affect on her "self-image" will complicate matters, but she is reaching out to God and to you and Christ's "stand-in" in your marriage in her internal struggle that is similar to the struggle that Paul wrote about. Here is you chance to reach out to her in "sacrificial love" that puts the concern of someone else ahead of your own "immediate concerns."

[/i] "Love never fails." [/i]

What will God do to help you through this? God is not ignorant of your "shortcomings" as a human or your very real pain over her actions. The "tunnel" seems long and the "valley" seems dark and foreboding, with no end "in sight."

"I can do all things through him (Christ) who gives me strength," (Php 4:13) and

"For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, not things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 8:15-39, emphasis added)

What is one of your "purposes" as your wife's husband, Eph525? Perhaps to BE the spiritual head of your household as Christ is head is of His "bride?" Did God KNOW before you were married that you wife would NEED you? Only you can answer that question. For me, the answer was "yes." Why then has God "allowed" this to happen? Perhaps to draw you both out of "self-reliance" and into a firmer reliance on Him as you both willingly submit your own will to His will? Perhaps because God "allows" us to be defiant of His will in order to teach us the folly of "easy believism?" Perhaps because He is teaching us the truth of Romans 8:28, that even the "bad things" can be used by God to develop us, to mold us, to shape us, into vessels that bring honor and glory to God as we realize the futility of "doing things our own way?"


Here are the two main things you need to address;

1. Do you love your wife and truly want to be in a recovered marriage with her?

2. Are you willing to trust God to help the both of you, even when things look dark and hopeless and your emotions are begging you to "put an end to this misery" and just "move on without her?"

If the answer to those questions is "yes," then you DO what is necessary and you endure what is necessary to first mold YOUR life into one that walks in humble obedience to God and second to let those changes be real and seen by your wife. "Fogged out" or not, she will see those changes and TIME will lend credibility to those changes not being for the purposes of "manipulation," but that they are real and will be "had" by either her or some other woman if she "let's you go." Remember, she also knows the "real scoop" about her OM, she is just denying the "bad things" because she is getting her emotional needs met right now that are uppermost in her mind.



So let’s turn now to the “Big Three” issues that your wife “brings to the table” of this current mess.

1. Wife’s salvation status and walk with God.
2. Wife’s affair never truly ended.
3. Wife has mental problems that need professional treatment (i.e. Bulimia, BiPolar, etc.)


(1) Wife’s salvation status and walk with God.

Aside from being married in a church and a few comments about visiting a church service, I get no sense of your wife actually having had a true conversion wherein she became a "born again believer." I may be wrong, and if so you will need to say so because it has a bearing on the "what to do" part of addressing this problem area. For now, I am going to assume that she DID have a true conversion and is a "backslidden believer." IF that is not the case, then we are dealing with an unbeliever and the "things of God" will be primarily seen as "foolishness" and attempts to "manipulate" her. In that case you will have to decide if you want to be in an "unequally yoked" marriage or not.

So, operating on the basis that your wife IS a born again believer, then it is obvious that she has been, and is, living in willful disobedience of God's commands to her both as a believer and as your wife.

Let's try to "get inside her head" a little on this issue of Faith in God.





Does it "sound" to you as though she is feeling a "disconnect" from God? Does it "sound" as though she is having a mental struggle with surrendering to God, with submitting her will to God's will? It does to me. She KNOWS she is being willfully disobedient and it appears that God is "pricking her conscience" and getting her attention. But then the "cares of the world" intrude and she falters again.

This is perhaps the most important reason why I contend that "Plan B" has no part in your efforts. All that it will do is effectively "prove" to her that the 1Corinthians passage really doesn't mean anything to you. Never mind for now that SHE isn't exactly following that passage, you have to remember that she is "rationalizing" everything and has already determined that you don't mean what you say about loving her.

From a practical standpoint, you KNOW from these things that she is at least "reluctantly receptive" to understanding what God's will for her is. You can talk with her about God, husbands and wives, submitting YOUR life to God and how God's promises for believers who are married are just that, PROMISES by God of what He WILL do when both husband and wife walk with Him in obedience to His will. That is the "triangle of marriage." When God promises, God delivers. We can refuse and not get what God has promised, but that is our fault, not God's. If you are in "Plan B," there can be NO communication and NO chance to talk about your relationship and her relationship with God, can there?


Okay, you are her husband. You need to talk to this pastor and find out what was said by him and by your wife. If this is supposed to be a part of Matthew 18:15-20 church discipline intervention, you have a right to know. If it's an attempt at counseling, what were the results? Has your wife been back to the church since then, or was she told she is "not welcome there?" It is very important that you know this information.


(2) Wife’s affair never truly ended.


"Feeling foolish" is normal for most Betrayed Spouses, it certainly was one of my reactions. It comes with the realization that you have been lied to for a long time, and that they became so skillful at lying that you now question your ability to determine any "truth." The "truth meter" seems broken. This is the equivalent of saying that "Blind Trust" is gone. It is. But trust CAN be rebuilt, and it is rebuilt on changed behaviors that not only state truth, but act in truth, and even "allow" that truth to be verified (accountability, for example).

Regardless, you now know that you are dealing with an affair, and the affair must END in order to begin recovery. So we are not there yet and that must be one of the goals that runs in tandem with her faith. She must first submit to God before she can end the affair, simply because God has made it very clear that there will be NO unrepentant adulterers in heaven. Once she understands that she can't "lie" to God, she will have to make a choice. So your first priority is still her relationship with God. If she "gets right with God," the affair must end. Then your responsibility will be to "be there" to "catch" her when she cuts the cord to the "seeming safety of getting her EN's met through adultery."

Let me caution you at this point that when she does become convicted of her sin against God and chooses to end the affair, it is NOT that "simple." The tendrils of the affair are deep and many. Getting disentangled from a long-term affair takes a lot of time. You have to prepare yourself for that too, so when it comes time to begin recovery you can do so with the knowledge that recovery is a JOURNEY, not an instantaneous trip. We can talk more about that later. For now, just know that took my wife 4 years to get completely disentangled from her 6-year affair, and it can be very stressful on the BS waiting to reach "Recovered!"


(3) Wife has mental problems that need professional treatment (i.e. Bulimia, BiPolar, etc.)

Okay, this is a serious side of the problem that won't go away even if Recovery is attempted. It is also something that is NOT "do it yourself." It requires professional intervention, but she can't be forced to seek that care.


Bipolar disease (formerly called Manic Depression) is very serious. She not only needs to be under the care of a physician, she needs to be TAKING her medication.


Bulimia ( the ED you are referring to) needs professional intervention. This is very much a "self-image" thing, and she probably interprets your EN of "Physical Attractiveness" as her not being "good enough, or thin enough." This is a very serious mental illness that can lead to many physical problems, including death.

So to refer to the "in sickness and in health" part of your wedding vows, it is quite possible that a lot, if not all, of what has been going on is tied to these mental illness problems. It is quite possible that if these diagnoses are correct, much of the marital problems, including the affair, can be a result of these mental conditions much more so than a "willful" choice to cheat.

Have you talked with her about these things? If so, what has she said? I understand that ED people become accomplished liars, so the lying stuff does go "hand-in-hand" with the rest of it.

Eph525, those are my thoughts. I believe that it is essential for you to stay in communication with your wife. She has indicated several times that she would like you to you to "rescue" her. But then FEAR takes over and her "Taker" slams the door. All you need, though, is "one foot in the door." Try the foot of Jesus. It is amazing to many that when Jesus opens the door, no one can shut it, but it IS true.


"If anyone opens the door, I will come in." Why would you wait for her to come to you when you can go to her? I understand waiting to have her come home until she commits to ending the affair and to attempting recovery, but take a page from Jesus and leave the comfort of your sheep pen (house) and go seek her and then LEAD her gently back.



That IS what this journey is about…..small steps along the way, one foot in front of the other, even though the journey might take 10,000 steps. "Plan B" eliminates ANY steps in your case.

In conclusion, here are a couple of things you wrote that you should print out and keep with you as reminders on the "tough days:"






It IS a "hard road" sometimes. That's why we walk it WITH God and not alone.


God bless and strengthen you today and every day until His will is accomplished.

FH,

Wow! just looking at the response and the length I am overwhelmed at the moment and I need to really process what you wrote.

I appreciate your time and effort and thought.

OK, I printed off your reply FH and read through it once - very deep, piercing my heart, tears flowing.

Ironically, you touched on so many points that I talked about in IC today, specifically about perseverance. Also some points from church yesterday that I have not been back on here to elaborate on yet.

I need to rest and think on this more, but I have to say that in general I agree with what you wrote.

Still processing. So much to think through.

I am forming a plan for a Mother's Day gift - more details to follow.

Few things for today.

I asked WW if she wanted to spend time together on Mother's Day. Her response - "I doubt it."

So I completed my "fishing" trip I mentioned above and I got a big bite. I talked to the deputy who came to the house. He again said it was an anonymous call, then as he read over the notes said "He thought she might be in trouble." - key word is "He." WW mentioned the only "He" who knew she was over was her brother - but she also said she never told anyone it would just be for an hour.

Soooo..... I think I need to change bait and see if I can land this one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Eph,

Man I love your resolve but I wonder about the asking her to do things and such. I would make a one time offer to her that she is welcomed to join you and the children at HOME or on excursions at any time she CHOOSES and then I wouldn't mention it again, ever. It seems to me that she thinks anytime she wants you she can have you. I could be wrong but he actions and responses and perceived tone says a lot.

Next time you are alone with wife

You could likely get the truth about the police call by acting as though you know. In a face to face careful confrontation you merely indicate that the policeman told you the report indicated a "HE was concerned about you" and the cop gave you the caller ID phone number that OM used to call it in and it matched known OM phone numbers.

SHE KNOWS it was him...you just need convince her that YOU KNOW...and then she won't lie about it anymore.

Face to face is important...doesn't give her the opportunity to deny and head off to acquire facts disputing your story before acknowledging the truth (such as OM will say he called from a pay phone and their is no way they could have traced the call to him).

As far as FH saying you can't ever do Plan B, I strongly disagree. His reasoning IS one of the reasons I had indicated way above that you need to catch her doing something (by snooping) before you initiate it Plan B. Plan B needs to appear to her as a reaction to something hurtful she did necessitating your removal from the equation. Long Long Long term Plan A eventually becomes appeasement and enabling. Plan B will either speed up the point of recovery or not...but at least you will be going along in your personal recovery...with or without your wife.

Appeasement is merely feeding the alligator hoping it will eat you last - Winston Churchill [paraphrased as I could not find any confirmation of this quote on the net but I heard Glenn Beck use it the other day and attribute it to Churchill].

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W.- if all that Ephesians525 was dealing with was adultery, then I might agree with a "Plan B" approach at some time. But in his situation there is more going on than just the adultery.

Bottom line: Eph is not only trying to win his wife back, but he set the paramaters of "never" abandoning her, and given her mental issues complicating the situation, he will have to decide what is best in his situation. He asked for my opinion, and I gave it to him based upon what he had written so far. I would say he can go to a "modified Plan B," which is what he is already doing, and is what I went to in my own situation. But there really isn't a defined "modified Plan B," and MN Plan A and Plan B are given as an "either/or" thing. Either Plan A or Plan B (completely dark, no contact other than through a mediator).

I'll wait for Eph525 to offer up some comments on my posts before going further.

FH,

I see quite clearly that this is going to be Eph's call. Prolly a good thing to inquire the good Steve Harley about (though he seems to nearly always recommend continuing Plan A as long as the BS can do it...which if you're calling him for counseling he knows you still have it in you)

I, personally, never would have endured what you (FH) went through in your situation. The fact that you prevailed in the end, to me, is of no consequence. It was YEARS of your life. I am certainly not being critical of you. It was your path. I also don't believe such stated inability to endure years of this is any measurement of my love for Mrs. W. It is merely an indication of individual tolerance levels.

When I found MB, I found a plan. I decided to follow the plan and see what happened. I didn't have to decide anything right then (though I was very conflicted). However, pretty early on I set dates. Plan A, about 4 months, then Plan B. Since it was April, 2005, I knew I had to register and enroll my duaghter in a kindergarten the end of August. I intended to do so in my parents school district after we (daughter and I) moved in with them. Thus, that was to be the logical beginning of Plan B. Then I'd hold out through the end of the year and file Plan D in or around January, 2006.

Fortunately...I never got there.

Thus...taking my own perception of acceptible tolerance levels, I don't want to see Eph spend too many months/years trying to Plan A, then modified Plan B, then Plan B, then Plan D, while WW is off frolicking with OM merely because he promised to "never" abandon her. Heck...SHE didn't keep ANY of her marital promises, she's wayward and unworthy of him and he has every right to put her out...why does Eph have to "not abandon her" indefinitely (for a time, understandable...Plan A).

No matter what...Eph WILL make it. She's gonna come back or not. Eph doesn't really have control over it. Eventually, I think, he's better off gettin' out of the way and turning it all over to God. Plan B...when Eph is ready.

I'm rambling now.

Once again...no offense intended.

Mr. Wondering

I also would not recommend a modified Plan ANYTHING. The reason the MB plans work is because they are followed. I don't believe anything would have enticed me to voluntarily sign up for 4 years of he[i][/i]ll