OK, probably gonna post a ton of comments this weekend while the kids are visiting WW.

To be honest it's a daily struggle because in my mind I see validity in both directions - however I think WW expects plan B based on what others have done to her in her past (though she would not call it plan B) and may even want it. That way she can continue to justify what she is doing because, in her mind, I would be the one who walked away.

Don't worry, there won't be years of anything with plan A or B. If WW does not decide to reconcile she will file for D on the first day she can (course that's based her talking now which we all know is foggish).

It's about time for my monthly meeting with Steve anyway and this is definitely a topic I will discuss with him.

No matter what I do, the first thing will be to wait upon the Lord fir His direction.

Not much to say except...GO to BED! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mr. W. - I understand what you are saying and there DOES come a time when a Wayward Wife who is also a believer, and who is continuing to willfully pursue an adulterous relationship has to be "let go." The "question" will always be "when." That is something that only the Betrayed Spouse can decide. For me, the decision was "made" when my wife told the OM, in my presence, that she wanted him when asked "what do you want?". It would have resulted in a "Plan B" and the a divorce has God not intervened and she began to realize, right after moving out of the house, that she was maybe making a really big mistake. That didn't mean that the affair was over at that point. It meant that the door was open to continued discussion. Remember, for most Wayward Spouses, part of the "equation" is that in their minds they think that "if it were me, I would not take me back, how could I?"

While the door is open to contact with the BS/WS, while there are moments of "clarity" when the WS indicates that they really would like to be married if "all the problems were not there," then endurance is the "watchword." It is anything but easy, but it is a "glimmer of hope" that has not gone out. As with most roaring fires, they all begin with a tiny spark, a miniscule flame, that grows as it is fed sustaining fuel. That "fuel" is God and God's will for believers, and especially for husbands and wives.

BigK - with all due respect, I am not "ENTICING" Eph525 to do anything. I am giving him my opinions and why I have those opinions. He will take my opinions just like he takes everyone's opinions, including yours, and will evaluate them to see what, if anything, he wants to incorporate into his attempts to recover his marriage.

You seem to think that I went through "4 years of he11" in my Recovery. That is incorrect, I went through 4 years of Recovery with occasional backsteps into "he11" when there was a contact.

You seem to forget a couple of things. First, the AVERAGE Recovery timeframe is 2 years. Second, when recovering from a Class II Affair, the Recovery timeframe often takes as long as it took the WS to get into and out of the affair. In my case that meant I KNEW going into a decision to ATTEMPT Recovery that it might take as long as 6 years.

What "enticed me" into making that sort of commitment (that actually took 4 years to reach RECOVERED)?

Plain and simply, it was my love for my wife and my commitment to my marriage vows and to God as our Sovereign Lord. I believed in Romans 8:28-29, Philippians 4:13, Genesis 18:14a, and 1Peter 5:5-11.

I committed that if there was going to be a divorce, SHE would have to divorce me because I had committed to "for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part." That was me, it might not be you or anyone else. If you view your marriage vows differently, that is your choice. Jesus DID give the BS who was unable to endure and forgive the right to a divorce because He knew how devastating a marital infidelity is to the Betrayed Spouse.

Don't forget that the "MB Plans" DON'T "always work," even if they are followed "according to the manual." Every situation has similarities and every situation has differences, that depend in large part on the participants in the marriage and their own relationship, or lack of one, with God.

It the "MB Plans" were a "guaranteed cookie cutter" method to save every marriage suffering from adultery, there would be NO divorce or failed recoveries. But the simple fact that there are divorces and failed recoveries makes it clear that the "MB Plans" are not omnipotent or omniscient. They don't claim to be. They claim to be ONE method that has had much success over the years regardless of one's personal faith, but FAITH does play a huge role, imho, in many successfully recovered marriages because we "do it" with God and not on our own.

In short, God was working on MY faith and walk with Him just as surely as He was doing so with my then WW, and has continued to do with both of us now that He has restored our marriage. Can someone say that I was "stupid" to endure "4 years of he11," in their opinion of what "he11" would be? Yes, of course they can. Can someone say that I was "stupid" to trust that God COULD save my marriage if that was His will? Yes, of course they can, just as those who accused Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego could. It is the power of God that changes "human equations," and it is God's will that always reigns supreme, even when we don't know the "how" or "why" or even what the future, on Earth, WILL hold.

It is much easier to "look back" with "20/20" hindsight and see HOW God worked things out. It is much more difficult when you are facing the "firey furnace" and all you have to rely on is your faith in God that no matter what the outcome, HE loves me and will use all the circumstances in my life to work for good in my life and in my walk with Him.
That is, in large measure, what Faith is all about, what Hope keeps its gaze fixed upon, and what Love DOES no matter the personal cost. That cost never can exceed the cost to Jesus, who modeled for us what love for another is all about.

FH,

I would never discourage anyone from believing God and for what he might do in their situation.

I firmly believe a mixture of faith and works is the best for dealing with adultery.

God does what he can do but expects us to do what we can do. It's not one OR the other, it's BOTH.

I exposed and did a Plan A (even though I hadn't found MB). I also prayed and believed God and got my church praying. My wife had a supernatural visitation from God where she KNEW she must end her affair and come home.

Marital recovery for us has been following the MB program and believing God. Seemed to work pretty well.

I see a lot of people talking about "modifying" the MB plans here and it almost always leads to failure. YMMV.

I take my vows very seriously FH - I'm surprised you would think otherwise.

"I take my vows very seriously FH - I'm surprised you would think otherwise."

BK, I think you are getting paranoid. I never said YOU didn't take your vows seriously. I said you WERE accusing me of "enticing" Eph525 to so something other than a "Plan B" as you were recommending to him. There ARE a lot of people on MB who do not put their faith and hope in God and who place the "MB way" ahead of God's Word in their "counseling." If you feel that is somehow "pricking your conscience," that is between you and God to find out why it seems to be bothering you.




Okay. But that is NOT what you have advocated in past posts. You have, for example, advocated that a born again believer CAN lose their salvation and then have to somehow "regain" it through some "works" that are "within their power." On the "JJ" thread you made it quite clear that you believed that God was "limited" in what He could do for her and her marriage.




That's good, because I think so too. One does NOT "sit back" and do nothing, thinking that God will do everything for them. But one DOES need to base what they DO on the Word of God and what is consistant with God's commands and teaching. Each situation is unique (even though infidelity is a common denominator) and a person must base their choices of what "works" they need to, or should, do upon all the information at their disposal and whether or not their choices are consistant with God's Word.

Divorce IS an option. If it is rejected in favor of attempting forgiveness and reconciliation, then "plan B" becomes a "last resort," if ever, option for a BELIEVER. It best comes into play when the BS has decided that ALL of their efforts are having NO impact on the WS and that they are willing to end the marriage in divorce. Eph525 is "not their yet," imho.




And what makes you think that I don't agree with that? What I believe is that the "doing" that someone does needs to be "done" according to God's will and not according to an emotional reaction to our human nature.

However, your choice of the words "what he can do" is an interesting choice of words. What God can do is unlimited. God CAN do anything He wants to do "instantly." That God chooses to use the situations we find ourselves in to also teach us more about Himself and about humble obedience to His will is not the same thing as God being unable to do something UNLESS we first do something. The "good works" that God has appointed unto us to do INCLUDES how He expects us to be Christ's "stand-in" in our marriages.

This weekend I have felt pretty blah the whole time, and today was absolutely the worst having no family to spend this special day with. This is the lowest I have felt in quite some time.

WW brought the kids home tonight and they gave her their gifts. We got her a mother's day ring with her birthstone as well as those for the kids - it looks really pretty and she really liked it. I just need to get it sized down some because I guessed a little too big on her ring size. She would not go to dinner with us and as she was leaving she thanked me for the gifts.

FH, I am still working on my comments. You really gave me a lot to think about. I'll probably discuss some of this in IC tomorrow.

I know I cannot do this on my own. Just like in the poem Footprints In The Sand (http://www.barefootsworld.net/footprints.html) I recognize that God is going to have to carry me. He has put a lot of people around me to help me in this time, including all of you here on MB.

BK - I agree with you too that God expects me to play my part in this, and with His guidance from His word I will know what my part is. Therein lies my struggle right now - How would plan B be in line with what Bible says in Ephesians 5:25 - to love my wife as Christ loves the church.

Until I can resolve that I won't be able to do a plan B. That's just where I am right now and why I have sought the assistance and advice of everyone here to help me resolve that.

I don't want this to turn into a theological debate or arguments blasting one another. This is to help me.

Perhaps you should check your paranoir at the door FH because I never even mentioned you in my post to Eph - in fact I *think* this is the first time I even posted to his thread and I was not recommending anything except that following UNMODIFIED MB plans may serve him better.


Actually it bothers me that you would assume and state that MB plans are in any way in conflict with scripture. They are not so far as I can see. My conscience is totally clear. Thanks for asking.


Well that is some mighty fine extrapolation right there isn't it bringing a totally different discussion into the current one. A very nice straw man arguement. (which unsurprisingly for you contains stuff you think I believe but have in reality just made up as usual)



Well I will agree with most of that FH except to say that most situations in fact are not unique - they are all pretty much the same.

Again you attack the MB plans by cleverly implying they are inconsistent with God's word and it is a choice between following Harley or following God's word.


I think you totally misunderstand Plan B.


I find that an extrordinary attack from you. I agree God is UNLIMITED in any way. However, the fact is God does NOT do it all Himself. God EXPECTS us to do what is within our province. God does not do exposure. God does not transform us into better spouses. God does not wave a magic wand and make our spouses come back to us. God DOES help us as we attampt to follow His word. He moves as we move. He works with us as we submit to Him to make us more like his son.

This sort of nitpicking FH is why I just don't engage you. It's fruitless.

OK. Can I ask why you think Plan B is out of line with Eph 5:25

Please note - I am not telling you it is time for plan B - to be honest I have not exhaustively read your situation.

Dr Harley is a Christian and his plans are not in conflict with scripture.

I would also disagree that Plan B inevitably leads to divorce or that it is an absolute last resort before divorce. If it becomes that then you really have left it too late and Plan B will be unlikely to end the affair and give you a chance to save your marriage.

EPH

My wife was in a class 2 deeply entangled affair. She believed it was an exit afair in fact, but fortunately OM did not.

My story is easily retrievable if you want by Clicking here .

I prayed hard, found nothing in MB that contravened scriptures and so applied plan A with exposure to the letter.
Almighty God SO strengthened my arm that this deeply entrenched affair was mortally wounded and then though my applying love and forgiveness my wife was won back to me.
Within six months my Squid was once again recognisable as the wife of my youth.

She has not contacted OM nor been contacted by OM for more than two years now. We are happy, recovering well and working on being worthwhile members of our church. I cannot IMAGINE a better or swifter outcome to a dreadfully evil and entrenched class 2 affair.

I ask only that you compare the factual results of MY situation where MB was applied as a tool rendered by God himself, with those situations where folks awaited God's miraculous intervention alone.
I firmly believe that God will not do for us what he has facilitated that we can do ourselves.

I am reminded of a story whee there is a terible flood in a town, and the pastor of the church is clinging to his steeple as the water rises.

" Lord !" He prays , "deliver me from this by your Mighty Hand ! Amen!"

Soon a boat comes ove to him.

" Jump in !" shouts the captain.

" No thanks" shouted the pastor over the rushing water " I am waiting fo God to deliver me".

The boat left. The water kept rising.

Soon a raft floated past, a woman already clinging to it shouted " Jump on ! Its very stable !"

" No thanks" shouted the pastor over the rushing water " I am waiting fo God to deliver me".

The raft moved on. The pastor was up o his neck in water now.

A helicopter arrived and let down a rope.

"Grab on!" Shouted the pilot through the speaker.

"No thanks" shouted the pastor over the rushing water " I am waiting for God to deliver me".

And the pastor sank beneth the water and drowned.

In Glory the good pastor was taking his seat at the right hand of Christ, when he said to him " Lord, I am disappointed. Whay did you not deliver from the flood?"

Jesus replied "I sent a boat, a raft and a helicopter, what did I have to do send a cuise ship ?"


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Remember also the parable of the talents. To not risk exploiting our God given talents is do displease Him whom we serve IMO.

All blessings

BigKahuna - I will respond just one more time to what you wrote. This thread is Eph525's thread and is for the purpose of trying to help him during a very difficult time in his life, both with respect to his marriage and with respect to his relationship with God. If you wish to continue a "debate," feel free to start a thread and call me out on anything you wish and I will respond on that thread. For now, I will simply give you my "reasoning" on the points you raised out of respect for you and in order to put my "advice" to Eph525 into context.



BK - this seems to be becoming your "stock in trade" response when I, or anyone, offers a differing opinion to yours. You enter the discussion with an obvious "attack" on me and when I respond to you discussing the "areas of disagreement of opinions" you resort to this sort of fruitless exercise in an attempt to put anything I say into a category of "irrelevant and fruitless." You ARE, of course, entitled to YOUR opinion, but it would be refreshing for you to just once actually engage the discussion, the questions, the differences of opinions, without this sort of juvenile response in an attempt to shut down legitimate discussion of differences of opinion.



BK - you didn't mention be by name, but you certainly mentioned me by reference to "4 years of he11." (e.g., "I don't believe anything would have enticed me to voluntarily sign up for 4 years of he11.") You were commenting on Mr. Wondering's post wherein he DID refer directly to me, so "feigning" that you didn't mention me by name is not a "mistake" but an obvious attempt to mislead. You know quite well that it took my marriage 4 years to reach "recovered," with multiple occasions of contact by my wife during that time. That YOU wouldn't "endure" those things is your RIGHT and your OPTION. That Mr. Wondering stated that "my choices" would not have been his choices is perfectly acceptable and required no response from me. He gave good reasons for his opinion of what he would or would not do and they are right for him. They (my choice to remain committed to the potential 6 years needed for recovery that I made when I began recovery) were NOT "easy" to endure and there were several times I "felt like" tossing in the towel. It WAS "4 years of my life," but against a lifetime of marriage and against eternity it was "not that much time." Support and encouragement from others and a choice to "wait on the Lord" is what "got me through" those dark times. God was teaching both me and my wife what was needed to not only recover our marriage fully, but how we needed to walk with Him as believers, walking in faith and hope with Him as our guide through both the dark times and the good times. An awareness of, and application of "Emotional Needs" is also a good thing. But they CAN be "in conflict" with Scripture when they become the overriding basis for actions if they are done solely to "get a response to those actions that I want." That's because it can become a "self-esteem" issue where our own feelings become paramount rather than a "God-esteem" focus. That is one of the lessons that I learned from the book of Job. We don't always know the reasons, much less the outcomes, but we (believers) place our trust (or in my opinion we should) in God because HE, not us, is Sovereign Lord.




Again, I have no problem with your opinion on this. It is an opinion that is shared by many on MB. The reason they "work" is that they are consistent with biblical teaching on love and care for one another.




That "MB methods" have application whether or not anyone believes in God is because that is how God created us. The fact that we often "abuse" the roles of husbands and wives is a function of the "sin-nature" that we all have. It is a function of the "selfish" oriented nature that we all have, the "me first" sort of thing. But they are not the "holy grail" either. They do not work "all the time," anymore than a BS who endures the "crazy times of their WS" is guaranteed that their spouse will respond to God and turn from their sinful choices. To "arbitrarily" say, for example, that one MUST do 6 months of a Plan A and then go to a "strict" Plan B is not the "cookie cutter" that works in all cases. That is all that I am saying. Each situation is "unique" to all the parameters of the particular marriage. Each person must evaluate their own situation, their own beliefs, and make choices for themselves and their attempt to save their marriage. There is no "right or wrong" in this, nor is there any "right or wrong" in modifying some of the "parameters" of a Plan A or a Plan B in order for them to "fit" with the choices of the BS in what they think is the "best way" for their situation.

For a believer, part of the "equation" when there are difficult choices to be made is to evaluate ANY advice against what the Word of God is saying. If there is an apparent "conflict," then the believer should, even against their own very real feelings of hurt and pain, submit their will to God's will. It has nothing to do with whether or not some "MB advice" is consistent with the Word of God. It has to do with which "advice" to implement at any given time, especially when the believer thinks that God's "advice" supercedes "man's advice" in how to respond to a given situation at a given point in time. This is no different from what Jesus taught the Pharisees about divorce….Moses' way or God's way.

What WE do in offering advice is to try to evaluate the total situation and to give reasons for WHY we are advising one course of action versus another course of action. That is ALL that we can do. It is then up to the recipient to evaluate all the advice and accept or reject any, or all, of it depending upon their own decisions of what is applicable to them and what is not.




No God does not "do it all Himself." He has given us "Free Will" to decide to follow Him or not to follow Him.

But God DOES transform believers. That is very clear from Scripture. People who are born again, accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, ARE a "new creation." God DOES transform the heart of believers and gives them the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth regarding God, and living a godly life. We can, and often do, choose to "fight against God," but that also comes with consequences that God allows to happen in our lives, in order to teach believers the "folly" of "self reliance" rather than humble reliance on God to "be there" for us regardless of any of the circumstances we encounter in our lives.

If it is not God working in us and through us (according to Romans 8:29-29), then it is a very real possibility that we will develop a "self pride" in what WE did, all by ourselves. If it is not God working in us and through us, then God's promise to believers in Philippians 4:13 is an "untruth" and we must do everything solely under our own power. If it is not God working in us and through us, then what is the "point" of God's instruction to believers to be "overcomers?" Are our own finite resources and finite reasoning "enough," or are there situations when God says "lean on me" and "I will give you strength?" What about Psalm 23 situations in our lives? "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me…."

" He moves as we move. He works with us as we submit to Him to make us more like his son."

BK, I have no disagreement with these statements. It is possible that we have differing interpretations though. To "make us more like His Son" is what the process of Sanctification is all about. And Jesus laid down the model of what a husband should be to his bride. The question we all need to ask ourselves in this respect is "what was Jesus willing to do, despite His own "human" feelings in the matter, despite the totally adulterous thoughts and actions of His bride, in order to BE humbly submissive to the Father's will and trusting of the Father's "capabilities" in the matter?" THIS was the "question" posed by Jesus three times in the Garden of Gethsemene. Love IS a choice. The choice to love dominates the "feelings" of love.
It is NOT always an easy choice, but it is Christ's model to us for times of extreme emotional difficulty.

What I "argue" for is a Spirit led life, not a "feelings led" life. For believers, it can be difficult because we still contend with our "fallen flesh." For unbelievers, it's not an option simply because they don't have the indwelling Holy Spirit. MB principles are meant to apply in a "Good Samaritan" sort of attempt to help everyone in need and are, therefore, not only consistent with, and based upon the Scripture, but are "good." For believers, though, they have "more" than just the application of principles, they have the support and backing of God in addition to just the "MB formula."

Eph,

God gave you MB and a functioning brain. Use them. Your WW is perfectly fine having her cake and eating it too. You need to demonstrate to her that this is NOT the way it is going to be if she goes through with this divorce. Plan A is to show your WW what it will be like to stay with you. Plan B is to show your WW what it is like to be divorced. As long as you use plan B to show your WW tough love, God will get through to her. You need to show her how horrible her life will be without you. She needs to have to work, lose custody of her children, have no money, and face all the other consequences of her decision to realize, "hey, being married to Eph is much better than the alternative." Right now she thinks that because you are playing so nice, that you will stay that way and be "friends" once you divorce. You need to knock her out of her little fantasy world and plan B is just the tool to do that.

I have to agree with jmwc...you have done an awesome Plan A...I think that right now would be an excellent time to do it...

Mother's day being the big bang for her...in D there are no gifts...no one to conside your feelings...I feel that she is far to selfish at this point...

Most important, I feel that you would greatly benefit from Plan B...protecting the love that you have for her, creating asitch in which you can step back from the sitch and view it from a third party stance...

I have to say that should you decide to use this tool that it will be a little difficult at first and that you will be supported...

This is friend to friend, telling you that from my POV...I see you hurting more and more these days and I feel that's it's in your best interest to protect yourself and your kids...

Now, you can take it or leave it...the chose is up to you and I hope you know that you will be supported one way or another!

((((E))))

Thanks everyone.

I've just been in a funk lately and I talked about it in IC today. Mother's Day was a big trigger - I haven't had contact with my mom in over 3 years (long story) and add to that what WW is doing - well that made yesterday pretty much suck.

bob pure - thanks for your comments. I read several parts of your story when I first started posting - yes, one of many success stories here that I want to be a part of myself.

Right now, I am not in a place where I fell I can add anything deeper to my own thread - almost like a time of mourning. I am so exhausted, I feel like i have hit a wall and i need to take a break on this mountain climb

So guys, hang on because when I "get a grip" will get the ball rolling again.

Blast it I lost a reply.

FH suffice to say, I agree with much of your post. But you really should look at the patronising way you post. I am not your son, you are not my teacher or my Pastor. But you invariably post in a patronising manner to anyone you disagree with. I don't need an education from you.

I posted a lot to MM's new thread and you simply ignored it. Your choice of course but I saw that thread as a venue for discussion.

Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't really sure.

BigK,

All I can say is TMFT.

Pio - you are a man born out of your time.

Then I shall continue to work on my presentation so it doesn't seem "patronizing." You are quite correct, I am not your son, teacher, or Pastor. What I am is a fellow believer in Jesus Christ, a brother in Christ. I happen to believe that there are certain "fundamentals" of the Christian faith that are "non-negotiable," (for example, the diety of Christ; the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection from the dead; the forgiveness of all sins for one who accepts Jesus Christ; that salvation is by faith alone, it is the gift of God and not of any works that we do to earn forgiveness; etc.).

On other issues there is "room for disagreement." When such disagreements arise, it seems "prudent" to me to go to the Word of God FIRST. I have no problem with also reading commentaries and opinions by other believers, be they "old timers" such as early church "fathers" or current men of God. Those opinions and writings are then evaluated with what the Scripture has said, or not said, about whatever issue is being investigated. Therefore, there can be legitimate disagreement about some things, but not, imho, on the "core beliefs" of Christianity.





It seems to me that I have responded to many of the things that you have written, as I did on this thread. But you are right, I don't have the time to respond to everything. On the thread you referenced, I did respond to some things and not to others. But in deference to you and to not be "patronizing," why don't you list your "top" 2 or 3 areas you feel I have not responded to (yes, you can do so on that thread of MM's or on a separated thread if you'd like), and I will see what I can do to respond to them. That you seem to feel insulted or slighted by my not responding is something that I would like to rectify, if possible. But my not responding isn't a whole lot different than your choices to respond or not to respond to all posts or all "issues." You have steadfastly refused to discuss your reasonings for not believing Eternal Security, preferring to simply state that you do not believe in "once saved, always saved." I don't get "offended" by your refusal to engage in a discussion on that subject nor do I consider your stated disagreement to be "patronizing". I simply see it as your right to choose what you wish to respond to and what you either don't want to respond to or don't think you have enough time to responded adequately to, especially with respect to some of the "bigger, more involved," issues that may be raised.

Something to perhaps consider, many of the posts by various members to me have, themselves, been very patronizing, and even outright attacks, on me simply because I take a position that may be more "Fundamental" on some issues.

To some of those attacks I have, admittedly, responded in less than a "turning the other cheek" manner, and that IS both a fault of mine and a sinful response. I repent of those when I do them, as I am convicted by the Holy Spirit, but I have also "continued" to sin in like manner from time to time, because I am not perfect and do still struggle with human emotions just like so many others do. So if you were offended or thought I was being "patronizing" of you, I do apologize to you.

((Eph))

Yes you are in mourning. And sometimes the best we can do is just "be still and know that [God] truly is God."

My IC explained it to me this way-to just be still in the pain and let God do the work that only God can in this time.

Hang in there

FH and BK,

If you want to argue theology, please do so on your own thread. This is the thread for Eph525, not for your pissing match! Frankly, I choose to be angry when "christian brothers" act like this on a thread...it is exactly why MANY people are so turned off by people who "claim" to be christians!!

Now, you two are both fully grown, mature, adult men. Start acting like it. This is NOT a playground where one of you has to be the bully!

ForeverHers--you are more mature than this. If bigkahuna disagrees with you because he has not yet understood some of the things you THINK you understand, then either take it to another thread -OR- like a mature, loving Christian, tell him, "I disagree with you brother but in Christ-like love I choose not to argue with you on this person's thread." Then proceed to address bigkahuna as your dearly beloved YOUNGER BROTHER, not some inferior whom you have to teach!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

bigkahuna--I can only say that I would request that if you disagree with FH that you agree to disagree and please address Eph525 on this thread. If you WANT to try to see what FH is saying and out of your own interest in the topic would be interested in his views, please create your own thread. If not, even if he thumps his chest and acts like he knows better, please do what I do and just ignore it for a couple days and then start addressing Eph525.

While you boys were debating like bullies over who is right and wrong <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />, Eph525 has come on TWICE with a sad and hurting heart and all you two can do is continue your boxing match! Well, as the Mama Bee, I am grabbing you both by the ear and throwing you out of this playground until you can shake hands and apologize to each other!

* * * * * * * * * *

Eph525--

Sorry about that. You know how boys can be sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> So until those two get over their little pissing match, would you rather talk about the funk you're in, talk about the day-to-day life of trying to Plan A while separated from your spouse, or just skip it all and bet on who can piss further in their match? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I realize that what you're getting here is OPINION, and I believe both men have presented reasonable logic for their argument (stay in Plan A longer...go to Plan B), so here is MY opinion. I believe you are a smart man, Eph525. I also believe you have the tools available to you to read the Bible on your own, pray on your own, and listen to God's direction on your own. Yes, it is true that in your WW's past she has experienced people giving up on her and abandoning her. I think that should be factored into your decision--like perhaps you should stay in Plan A longer than "the average bear" because of it (btw, some "averages" are about 6 month Plan A, 1 - 1 1/2 years Plan B--as usually A's will die their own natural death within a 2 year timeframe). But I also know that God loves and values YOU, Eph525, and from YOUR HEART springs a wellspring of life for those around you. I know that God wants you to guard YOUR heart as well as hers.

Soooo...I will end with this encouragement: Psalm 46:10 "Be still and know that I am God." Eph525, this is a long-term battle. It will not be won overnight. Thus, as any soldier will tell you, you can not fight 24/7 for very long, and at some point you have to stop and rest. I think maybe you've hit your resting point. As BS's, we can not always work on our M's and work on our own self-improvement and work, WORK, WORK without eventually having to REST. Resting does not mean that you backslide or return to old habits or old sins--it just means stop and be still and refresh. Take some time to get a little extra sleep--go out for a coffee at the coffeeshop--maybe go to the gym or the sauna--but give yourself permission and time to REST. Be still in God's presence, accept the rejuvenation of being in His presence, and listen for HIS still, small voice to tell you what to do. Here in America, we always want to be DOING something, and I think maybe it's time for you give yourself permission to REST, catch your breath, and renew for the fight that is ahead.

In Christ's love...the Mama Bee,



CJ