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All of plan A is a huge huge huge exercise in love and giving...

it is NOT about doing for oneself...
it is ALL about doing for the WS....

and it is called plan A because there is a plan B side to it....

it is very difficult and humbling to give to someone causing so much pain....

which is why there needs to be an outlet...and there needs to be one or two others close that can take the brunt of the anger and frustration...

it is on one level a competition with the OP....
has vile and crass and horrible it sounds it is...

and plan A is about not letting an inch of wiggle room in your own behaviors and actions being turned in to a weapon to be used against you and the marriage....


a huge MO of affairs is the OP will act and behave on their best best behavior.....(falsely) (just more deceipt)
so that any emotional fall out by the BS will only feed the sick junkie mind (WS) that the BS is unstable and controlling and blah blah blah.....
as they get their perfect little OP fix....

let agree on facts of an affair...

it takes layering and layering upon layering of rationalization to justify affair behavior...

that WS are deep down good people....
(they dayum well better be cause if they are just crappy crappy people..then why are you wasting any time and energy trying to be married to someone who is crappy)

so WS are basically good people....choosing very very painful actions....

painful for ALL involved
themselves
the BS
the children and family
and even the OP

the burdon of rationalization justifying and living in direct constant dichotomy of what they know is right is an overwhelming painful burdon....

Plan A is about reaching out to the WS in pain..
EVEN as their junkie actions reaks havoc and pain....

as hard as it is, think of the stress a WS lives in trying to be good while the whole time choosing bad again and again...

WS tell lie after lie after lie..till it becomes them and they barely know how to tell the truth anymore....

BS through this need to remind them and show them the honor and glory in being a truthful person..

people who recieve the information upon exposure owe the WS that they care about them too not just place consequences but to help the WS become the person they are meant to be....

otherwise WS will cave and fold...
and figure they are in to deep
and it's so far gone there's no getting it back....

there must be joy in a home in which plan A is going on
there must be engaging
there must be attempt after attempt to reach out to them and show them that the saving of the WS own soul is of even greater priority than saving the marriage.....

bigger picture of what you want for a WS..is a whole person restored to valueing truth...honesty....integrety...

and while I feel bad for BS over and over again....
it is the WS that are truly lost....
truly hanging in the balance of right and wrong....

plan A is an act of sacrifice.....

ARK

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I just love your Plan A posts!!

But, of course, I'm in PLAN RECOVERY....

But it's partly because of listening to you while in PLAN A...

Mimi, sighing....

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OK Arkie - I'll Plan A you. Are you feeling the love yet?

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Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
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and it is called plan A because there is a plan B side to it....

Now that I am in Plan B I completely UNDERSTAND what you mean by this ark. I couldn't fully see it while in Plan A.


Married 10 years, Legally Seperated Aug 2,2006
1 year of Plan A followed by 1 year of Plan B...
...now stepping towards recovery?????
BH 37(me), WW 35, DB 7 & DD 5
My Story
My struggle with an EA
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Thank you Ark.

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a huge MO of affairs is the OP will act and behave on their best best behavior.....(falsely) (just more deceipt)


SO..SO..TRUE..what my FWH came to call her "BS" and he doesn't use the abbreviation...

This is what the WS learns during PLAN B..which is why I am now such an advocate for PLAN B...the OP CANNOT POSSIBLY keep this up 24/7...

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plan A is an act of sacrifice.....


What's beautiful about this is that my FWH now knows this and appreciates this...remembering the SPECIALNESS of PLAN A...

How can something SO WRONG..become something SO RIGHT?

Ark, I just love reading this..

YOU HAVE REALLY CAPTURED THIS CONCEPT AND HOW IT NEEDS TO WORK...

I pray folks here will really digest this and listen....


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Ark,

I embraced Plan A before I even knew what it was. I made some mistakes along the way, as I am not perfect. I must have done a [email]d@mn[/email] good Plan A though, because I feel the world has lifted off of my shoulders in Plan B.

I agree with HopeThisWorks, I can now look at Plan A and what it was, and what it did, and see much more clearly how it works. I'm so grateful to all who have posted here on MB forum, opening my eyes to myself.


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there must be attempt after attempt to reach out to them and show them that the saving of the WS own soul is of even greater priority than saving the marriage.....

Dear Ark--I love this part. So many get lost in saving marriages, they forget about the people (WS AND BS) first. Marriage makes us one, but when the other one is off making himself one with one or more others, the focus should be firsthand on getting you the BS to a place of emotional safety and second--getting the WS to a place where he/she is out of the horrible destructive behavior--for his/her own soul first. It's really thinking of the other first when you plan A. The marriage part will come, but without the above, it can't happen anyway--at least not in a healthy way.


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and while I feel bad for BS over and over again....
it is the WS that are truly lost....
truly hanging in the balance of right and wrong....

plan A is an act of sacrifice.....


There is elegance in your words and yet a simple basic truth here. Thanks for this post. I especially hope some of the newer posters read this and see that the sacrifice (even when a marriage is not saved like my own) is well worth it and one of the greatest acts of love out there. And amazingly, it leaves you in a place of self-peace when all is said and done.


BW-me, 29
XH, 29
3 sons-now 6,4,2
Divorce final--Sept. 27, 2006.


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Ark... I know you are most likely right about this stuff but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around this concept. See, I do not believe that WS are good people at all. I believe that until they earn the title of FWS they are in fact... very, very bad people. They hurt the ones they love the most and they do it with full knowledge of the harm they are causing. Frankly, many of the WS just don't care... they want what they want... all others be damned.
So, while I know it is a concensus around here that WS are basically good people... I do not agree with that one bit. They can become good people again if they choose to do so... but during the time when they are willing to run down their family to get to their OP, they are the personification of evil.
Would you consider a FWW that is having her H unknowingly raise another mans baby a good person? How about a spouse that risks the life of his or her partner by having unprotected sex with another person... all the while keeping their spouse in the dark as to the harm they could be causing. I just don't see it. I see that person as being DEFINED by their choices. It looks, sounds and acts like a duck... it is a duck IMHO. And until such a time as they stop doing what they are doing... IMHO, they are not worthy of the love that their family bestows on them. When they stop...ask for forgiveness and do things to help heal the damage that they have caused... then I say they are a good person and deserve every good thing that comes their way.
This competition thing for the WS is IMHO, a crock. I mean, what in the world is being fought for? A cheating spouse? There is a reason that although a very large percentage of marriages survive an affair that about 75% of those that stayed after the affair consider themselves to be unhappy... and this is years down the road. There are great examples of people on these boards that are happily recovered.... and THEY should be held up as the ideal and the goal for all dealing with infidelity. But it is important to note that more than a few people stay with their cheating spouses through all types of abuse... and they do so for the wrong reason. There are many people right now on these boards that cannot find the strength to stand up and say they will not tolerate the abuse any longer. Many people, that if they were not so afraid of being alone, afraid of losing their comfort zone... could find a much deeper happiness with someone that would treat them well and appreciate what they have.
Plan A has its place. No doubt. I will repeat that there are wonderfully recovered people here to attest to that. But plan kick in the [censored] has its place too. And there are people here to attest to that. Someone mentioned that SH called it "shock therapy" and frankly it is my opinion that sometimes people wait a little too long before pulling the trigger on that type of response with their WS (I would say that WH are a better candidate for this type of response).
Lastly... so that I don't get skewered here, I will repeat one more time... the GOAL is for people to recover their marriages and there are great examples of recovered families on this board.

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mkevery

I can not decide for others whether their spouse is a good person...but like I said there better be a grounding of the basics of good qualities..or marriagebuilders is a waste..

also I can not in my work experience deny the POWER of the brain as chemical/electrical functioning unit that wants to survive its ability to totally rationalize and justify behavior...and unable to process those actions differently based on the defense mechanisms it has created to preserve itself....can be very sick and twisted when in the throes of the affair...

and lets say that most people here are usually somewhere after D-day so the facade has been atleast been cracked...

demonization and total negative treatment of a WS will not address any of these issues..and will in my opinion feed the beast.....
it will feed their feelings of entitlement
while feeding their feeding their feelings of total f-up and the creator of ruin

and human nature will direct them to run and flee....
to cling to the known they have created

affairs drag people down deep in to a deep dark hole
the lies and deception become bigger than they ever imagined...

BS have every right to leave them there...but if they choose to help the WS...and that's what plan A is to me..
helping the WS recover their soul....
then a huge burdon befalls on to the BS to take this mess on...

it's not fair
it's not easy
it's not fun

that's why I say over and over and over again plan A without a set plan B date can potentially be damaging..
and each person holds the right to say no not gonna do it...


plan A is a choice...not a demand and it can be treacherously layered with abuse...of insidiously painful stuff...

and you know I have never advocated anyone stay for overt abuse....

I disagree with just finding someone else....especially when kids are involved....

I disagree with entering any type of recovery without full disclosure and boundaries in place....too many false recoveries based on desperation...

but plan A if nothing else says stop all the chaos on the BS side...
keep the lines of communication as open as you can get them.....
mirror honesty...faith...and values...

this is not about saving marriages this is about saving people....
both BS and WS

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True Power lies within the beacon of light, not the iron fist.

Magnificent stuff, ark^^.


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I can not decide for others whether their spouse is a good person...but like I said there better be a grounding of the basics of good qualities..or marriagebuilders is a waste..

also I can not in my work experience deny the POWER of the brain as chemical/electrical functioning unit that wants to survive its ability to totally rationalize and justify behavior...and unable to process those actions differently based on the defense mechanisms it has created to preserve itself....can be very sick and twisted when in the throes of the affair...

and lets say that most people here are usually somewhere after D-day so the facade has been atleast been cracked...

demonization and total negative treatment of a WS will not address any of these issues..and will in my opinion feed the beast.....
it will feed their feelings of entitlement
while feeding their feeding their feelings of total f-up and the creator of ruin

and human nature will direct them to run and flee....
to cling to the known they have created

affairs drag people down deep in to a deep dark hole
the lies and deception become bigger than they ever imagined...

BS have every right to leave them there...but if they choose to help the WS...and that's what plan A is to me..
helping the WS recover their soul....
then a huge burdon befalls on to the BS to take this mess on...

it's not fair
it's not easy
it's not fun

that's why I say over and over and over again plan A without a set plan B date can potentially be damaging..
and each person holds the right to say no not gonna do it...


plan A is a choice...not a demand and it can be treacherously layered with abuse...of insidiously painful stuff...

and you know I have never advocated anyone stay for overt abuse....

I disagree with just finding someone else....especially when kids are involved....

I disagree with entering any type of recovery without full disclosure and boundaries in place....too many false recoveries based on desperation...

but plan A if nothing else says stop all the chaos on the BS side...
keep the lines of communication as open as you can get them.....
mirror honesty...faith...and values...

this is not about saving marriages this is about saving people....
both BS and WS


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

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MEDC:

I'm so thankful ark responded to your post first. She speaks sooo eloquently and knowingly about this. I agree with her one zillionth percent. However, I do have a few thoughts to share.

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See, I do not believe that WS are good people at all. I believe that until they earn the title of FWS they are in fact... very, very bad people. They hurt the ones they love the most and they do it with full knowledge of the harm they are causing. Frankly, many of the WS just don't care... they want what they want... all others be damned.
So, while I know it is a concensus around here that WS are basically good people... I do not agree with that one bit. They can become good people again if they choose to do so... but during the time when they are willing to run down their family to get to their OP, they are the personification of evil.


You will likely be surprised to know that I actually very much agree with you on this. I did not consider my H to be a GOOD PERSON at all when he was a WS. You say a PERSONIFICATION OF EVIL. I considered him to have been under the influence of EVIL FORCES. He actually used to have DEVILISH and DEMONIC looks in his eyes.

But then you say:

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But plan kick in the [censored] has its place too. And there are people here to attest to that. Someone mentioned that SH called it "shock therapy" and frankly it is my opinion that sometimes people wait a little too long before pulling the trigger on that type of response with their WS (I would say that WH are a better candidate for this type of response).


and then...

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the GOAL is for people to recover their marriages


Ark explains this well but I will say it again based on my own personal experience. THE GOAL was to RECOVER my MARRIAGE. In my situation, PLAN KICK BUTT, right after D-DAY would have been GIVE YOUR H TO HER ON A SILVER PLATTER. KICK BUTT was my normal and typical response to ANGER.

PLAN A was SHOCK THERAPY. It blew my H's mind. He tried his best to turn me into that B..tchy, mean wife that he saw me as being..he wanted me to turn into her in order to continue to JUSTIFY his AFFAIR. I maintained MY PLAN A..."MY PLAN" is what Steve Harley called it. He said: "STICK TO YOUR PLAN".....

Another important point....

In PLAN A, the BS shows REAL LOVE..AUTHENTIC LOVE...as opposed to the PHONINESS evidenced by the OP...

The WS does not learn this IMPORTANT FACT until PLAN B...when with the OP 24/7....

So, as ark states, IT'S PLAN A THEN PLAN B....

Sure it would have empowered me to KICK BUTT..but it would not have led to RECOVERY of my MARRIAGE ..it would not have led to the RETURN of my sweet, loving H whom I just spoke with on the phone.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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Sure it would have empowered me to KICK BUTT..but it would not have led to RECOVERY of my MARRIAGE

I don't disagree with you... for you. But there are people out there that do not respect the kind of love shown in Plan A... and they need a plan KIA. There are examples of couples on this board that benefited from an eye opening.... and yes, maybe an ear splitting response to continued abuse from their WS.

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I can not decide for others whether their spouse is a good person...but like I said there better be a grounding of the basics of good qualities..or marriagebuilders is a waste..

Agreed

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demonization and total negative treatment of a WS will not address any of these issues..and will in my opinion feed the beast.....


Agreed. I would never suggest total negative treatment. A wake up call is what I was speaking of (see Amiok). As far as demonization... they bring that on themselves.

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and human nature will direct them to run and flee....


I couldn't disagree more with this. IMHO, human nature will bring them back to the place where they are most loved.

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helping the WS recover their soul....


I again, will disagree but understand where you are coming from. While the BS can forgive and help bring the person to a healthier place in the relationship, the decision to become a good person again is totally up to the WS. Without doing this, they cannot recover their soul, IMO.

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and you know I have never advocated anyone stay for overt abuse....


And affair is overt abuse. So, competing with the OP assumes an A still exists and IMO, the abuse still exists.

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but plan A if nothing else says stop all the chaos on the BS side...

I disagree emphatically. Plan A results in many... not all people having their stress racheted up to the point where they need ad's. Plan B helps lower the stress level for sure... but I don't see it happening much in plan A.

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this is not about saving marriages this is about saving people....
both BS and WS


Agreed to a point. Again, I will go back to 75% of people that have stayed after an affair consider themselves unhappy. The truly recovered and happy, like Mimi... while certainly the ideal that should be strived for... are not the norm. People come on this site years after an affair and still deal with the demons visited upon them by their WS. I read it here everyday. Success stories are wonderful and there are many... but there is at least an equal number of people living in unhappiness and going through the motions in order to keep together a marriage that was long ago destroyed by their WS.


from divorecepeers.com

Of those couples who remain married despite an affair, what percentage later describe the marriage as unhappy or empty?

&#9642; 78%

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but there is at least an equal number of people living in unhappiness and going through the motions in order to keep together a marriage that was long ago destroyed by their WS.


Do have some statistics to back this up OR is this your opinion?


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I posted one... they are available on numerous sites on the internet... do a web search. Most wind up being in the 75% range. I just use the 50% mark for comparison sake. The numbers I see most often are in the 75% unhappy range.

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and while I feel bad for BS over and over again....
it is the WS that are truly lost....
truly hanging in the balance of right and wrong....


Thank you for your post, Ark.

...I guess this is the reason why I often say that, in spite of all the pain, I would rather be a BS than a WS....

...I am in PLAN B for my own protection and to minimize the damage...but knowing that WS chose to remain a WS remains a great source of pain for me... for that exact reason.... WS has chosen 'turmoil' and 'deceit' and is paying the 'biggest' price.... he is being his 'worst' enemy right now.... and it is difficult to see someone you love so much hurt so badly, and that the only way to help him and myself and our family is to put a 'distance' between us....

...that is what I find really hard about PLAN B!


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DS16 & DS22
PLAN D: finalized!
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MEDC:

But I wonder if those folks would have remained unhappy if they used the MB's approach..

After PLAN A and PLAN B, comes commitment to use of the RULES OF RECOVERY...

Last edited by mimi1254; 12/01/06 09:53 AM.

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Mimi... do you read a lot of the posts here. There are many people that are years out and are still unhappy... and these are the people that stay here.... how about those that just gave up and moved on. I would venture a guess that if you looked at the stats for couples that have gone through affairs that the BS that moved on after an affair are significantly happier than those that stayed married to the WS or FWS. I will say once again that I think it is the goal to save the marriage if possible.... that is what the Harleys give people a good shot at doing... but it is by no means a guarantee that happiness will find a couple just because they used this program. It just increses their odds... from being lousy to at best break even. I would venture a guess that if Dr. H were able to save 50% of marriages and have the couple be happy after a few years, he would consider that a great success. I would.

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would venture a guess that if Dr. H were able to save 50% of marriages and have the couple be happy after a few years, he would consider that a great success. I would.


OK, MEDC.. but I'm wondering, what is your point?

We don't want to discourage folks from using the MB APPROACH, do we?

"Give up..there's a good chance you won't have a happy marriage anyways..."

That's not the mesage that you are trying to convey..is it?


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