BINGO!

This needs to be the premise that you operate under. You also need to protect V from the vultures swirling around (Dale). Unfortunately, you are going to do the hard work and go through most of the pain to get your marriage back on track. So, your goal needs to be NC between your WW and Dale, and making your home a safe and pain free environment while doing the heavy lifting in your relationship until you can convince your WW to start pulling her own weight.

Thanks again for the advice and words of encouragement, Jim.

I think I'm starting to wind down today. I started off strong, and while I still feel better now than I did at this time yesterday, I'm not feeling as brave right now. I've got a long car ride with V in a couple hours - driving to Ohio to pick up J for the weekend - and I hope I can stay upbeat and focus on satisfying ENs while avoiding LBs.

I know I need to keep the conversation light, but there's a huge part of me that feels like we need to keep talking this stuff out - right now. I know that's a mistake, and I'm pretty sure I can avoid making it. But there's still that nagging feeling that I'm not "fixing" the problem.

I know all I can hope for right now is NC and working on V's ENs, but I still feel a strong need for her to satisfy my ENs as well.

Another interesting weekend has passed. I am constantly amazed at how much I keep learning about myself and how my wife and I communicate.

I'll split this update up by day to make it a little more digestible and encourage comments and discussion.

FRIDAY

We picked up V's best friend J on Friday and drove back home. Things were good, and I was in a really good mood all day. But later that evening, we'd all gone to the store to pick up some things and V received a text message from Dale.

I was standing right next to her at the time and when she saw who'd sent it, I could see the sadness on her face plain as day. When I asked who it was, she said in what I can only describe as an utterly deflated tone, "Dale." On the drive home, I read what he'd written, and it wasn't of any significance -- just telling her that he was getting around to watching a movie she'd recommended.

Of course, when she received the message, my emotional state took an immediate nose-dive.

At home, both J and myself talked to V, telling her that she needed to tell Dale that there couldn't be any contact, as he clearly didn't understand that. V kept refusing, saying she didn't want to. After a long period of me trying to convince her that it was something she needed to do, and J holding and crying with her, and telling her that there was no way she could ever be with Dale, I made a decision.

I asked V if she wanted me to call Dale. She didn't respond, so I asked a few more times, getting to the point where my phone was in my hand with his number dialed, ready to start the call. V warmed to the idea pretty quickly. She wasn't "happy" about the idea, but was visibly comforted by it.

After several attempts, I reached Dale on the phone. I told him that I wasn't calling to scream at him or call him names. I made it clear that V and I are trying to work out some problems in our life, and continued contact from him is only standing in the way of that and causing pain all around. I told him that there was no way he and V could be together, no matter what happened between she and I. And I asked him, as a man and as V's husband, not to contact her any more. He agreed.

A bit later, he sent V's phone another text message asking that I call him again as he had more to say and was at work before so couldn't really talk.

I called him, and he explained to me that his parents had been through a really ugly divorce and he knew how much pain it caused. He told me that he didn't want to be in any way responsible for causing that kind of pain for anyone. He promised me plainly that he would not be contacting V at all and really hoped that she and I could work out our problems and have a life together. He further explained that he never wanted anything other than friendship with V, and I told him I believed him. (V had told me pretty much from the start that she had pursued him.) I told him that I didn't hate him, that I didn't think he was some monster who was trying to destroy our lives -- being able to say this has had a positive effect on me since. And I told him that nobody knows what the future holds, and maybe some place down the road the three of us could get to know each other as friends, but for the present, friendship between he and V was just not possible. He said he understood and again promised not to contact her.

I'm currently of the belief that encouraging me to call Dale and tell him how things had to be was V's way of asking me for help in doing something she knew needed to be done but just didn't feel strong enough to do herself.

I really hope that all of this makes as much sense to you guys as it does to me, and that I'm not crazy for finding hope in all of this.

SATURDAY

We got up early on Saturday so that V and J could begin their planned baking for the weekend. They intended to bake a lot of cookies and desserts for friends and co-workers over the weekend.

Most of the day went quite well. I was able to maintain a good mood most of the day, and V was visibly happy.

Later, however, my emotional state began to decline. I'm noticing that this seems to happen in the evenings, maybe because my energy level's lower, I'm getting tired, I don't know. But there's definitely a pattern.

I went to my computer room and closed the door to give V and J a chance to talk privately about the situation. This was a planned part of the weekend.

After a while, I emerged and asked V to talk to me about it, without getting upset, sad or angry. Just talking.

During that conversation, V apologized for what she had done. She admitted that it was a stupid thing to do, getting involved with Dale. She told me that where I'm intelligent, articulate, stable and know who I am, Dale is not these things. He's not as intelligent, or able to speak as clearly. He doesn't know where he's going in life. She told me that because of this, she felt he was more on her level.

She said that she felt like I was a level above her, that I was at a different place in my life. Because I have a career kind of job, which I love. I've had grand adventures and big mistakes to learn from. She said she doesn't feel like she's had a life of her own.

So I asked her if what she meant was that she didn't think she'd done enough on her own, and didn't have enough of a life of her own to along with our life. She said "yes, and I need to feel like I'm important in both."

I wasn't sure how to take this, because I certainly don't view our lives as being in competition with one another. I want to share my life with her, and vice-versa. For each of our lives to come together to form "our" life. I don't really view myself as having "my" life and "our" life. To me, they're the same.

Afterward, this really hit me hard. I was, for the first time in all of this, having trouble seeing a path -- seeing my next step on the way to solving this. So I went into the bedroom and shut the door, crying my eyes out, feeling utter despair. I was able to gain composure long enough to fetch J, because I needed to talk about it, but knew V wasn't prepared to.

I told her how I felt -- like my whole life was threatening to fall apart and there was nothing I could do about it. That the person I love most in the world was the one who might destroy my world. I just asked her to talk to V, to somehow help her see that she needed to try, really try, to make things work.

I stayed in the bedroom, for maybe 90 minutes, just laying there crying and thinking about the situation. After that, V came in with some food she'd re-heated for me.

I was visibly bottomed out emotionally, I know. She asked me what was wrong, which I didn't have an easy answer for. Instead, I asked her if when I say "I love you," and she taps or pokes me in response (which she has a habit of doing when we're in close proximity), if it means the same thing in her mind. She said yes.

I explained to her that, for me, I have to hear something for it to be solid -- for it to get to the part of my brain where I actually get it and believe it. It's just how I communicate. V is more a visual person and somebody who speaks with actions more than with words. She agreed and said it made sense to her. So I asked her, "Is the fact that you're still here, that you're affectionate to me, and that you say you love me, all of that, is that your way of telling me you're really willing to try." She said yes, it absolutely is. I apologized for it seeming like a stupid question with a completely obvious answer, but she said it wasn't stupid, that she understood why I would need her to tell me vocally.

After that, she and I spent another hour or so just laying together, both of us feeling much better. Eventually, we called J in and we all just laid there, embracing and joking and I guess kinda crying/laughing. I felt better than I have in a long time.

Later that night, V and I were intimate, and we both slept quite well.

This is very similar to my situation. I got an engineering degree in college, and went on to an engineering position out of college. She graduated with an English degree and kind of floated around with no career. Let her know that she can have a career and a family and that you will work with her to take her career into account as well. This may mean sacrificing financially for a while to put your wife through grad school. It may mean moving to a city where both of you will have opportunities in the fields that you want to pursue. Let her know that your career isn't more important than hers, and you will work together so both of you can be happy with what you do for a living. Mentor her and encourage her on how to pick a career field, how to get a job, and how to move up in that career. If you take an active role in helping her feel more important and fulfilled, she will love you more for it.

Hi Jim, thanks for the quick response. I appreciate what you're saying about me helping and encouraging V to get a career. A problem with that is that she doesn't feel like she wants a career yet. She is, on some levels, content with just having a "job" right now, without feeling like she has to decide what to do with her professional life right now.

However, I will definitely look for and find ways to help her feel more important and fulfilled in other aspects of her life.

Thank you for the advice yet again!

SUNDAY

I woke up early, about 7:30, and my mind immediately went to work on the events of the prior few days. While I was very happy to be lying in bed with V asleep, head on my chest, at the same time I began to feel like I really needed to talk about things some more. So, I excused myself, got dressed and went into the living room.

J was awake, and she and I talked about this stuff. J and V have been best friends for many years, and I believe J is able to gauge V's mental and emotional state very well. So when she told me that she really believed the worst was over, that V was starting to see things in a better light, it gave me a lot of hope.

She also said that she thinks once I'm able to start making things better for V and I at home, and in our lives, that much of the need V feels to be independent and do things on her own will start to slip. Again, this makes sense because if she becomes happy with her situation with me and our life, I think there's less motivation to try to change that situation or to feel like she needs to have more of "her own life."

Eventually, V woke up and I went and talked to her while she showered. I promised her that from now on, I would do everything I can to make our home a happy, safe, comfortable place -- a refuge from the world, free of sadness and pain. I told her we would only talk about our "stuff" at counseling or when we both felt up to it. And if one of us started to get upset, sad or mad, we would talk about something else and come back to it when we felt safe to do so again.

She also asked if we could not go to counseling this week. She said she felt like she was being ganged up on, and even though she knows that's not really what's going on, it's how she feels, and she needs a break from it. I agreed, but also made it clear that we would be going to counseling the following week. I am considering going to counseling alone this week anyway, as I still feel as though I need to talk some things out with the counselor.

I was in a pretty good mood most of the day Sunday. V was unusually affectionate toward me. At one point while the two of them were baking, I decided to duck out and take a shower. V came looking for me, and said that she didn't know where I'd gone and didn't want me to feel left out. I swear, the smile on my face must have pulled some muscles. For the first time in nearly 6 weeks, I felt as though V really cared about how I felt, that she'd actively thought of what she needed to do to make sure that I was as happy as she.

The rest of the day, she was very affectionate toward me, and I felt very good overall. I realize that this will likely wax and wane, based on what I've read here about these patterns, but it gave me hope.

I was really fine until it came time for V and J to head back to Ohio to take J home. V was going to stay at her parents' house and drive back on Monday (today). I put on a brave face and a smile for V, so that her mood would stay good -- I'm really gaining an understanding of critical this is now. But as soon as they drove away, my mood plummeted. I spent the rest of the day talking to friends and keeping myself occupied and not dwelling on my worry and fears.

One of the things I've discovered recently is that I have a huge fear of abandonment, which I now know is driven by my dad leaving me when I was 13 years old. Looking back, I can see how much of my life, especially my relationships, it has affected. Every time V walks out the door, there's a part of me that's afraid she isn't coming back. This makes me hold tighter, not want to ever say goodbye, not even for a few hours. It makes me cling, and smother, and want to spend every minute with her, no matter how harmful to our relationship it really is -- all because I'm afraid it might be the last time I'm with her.

I'm trying to deal with that, and I'm making plans to speak with my dad for the first time in 19 years. I'm not expecting or looking for an apology. But I have to tell him how much he's hurt me, and I have to let go of my anger. I need to move forward in my own life -- both for my own sake, and for the sake of my marriage to V.

Thus ends the update. ANY AND ALL COMMENTS ARE APPRECIATED!

I don't mean to be impatient, but I would really like some feedback from anybody who's willing to offer it.

I see that people are reading this thread, but nobody other than Jim (thanks Jim!) is commenting. Is that because the conclusions I'm drawing from these events make sense? Do you think I'm way off-base?

I guess they are not responding because they figure I've given such good advice that there isn't anything else to expound upon.

Seriously though, you are in the early stages of recovery (like me) and it is going to take a while to get to where you were before the A (and you need to keep going after you get there). I know it is a painfully slow process, but it is slow nonetheless. You are going to have to give it a good six months and evaluate where you are after that. It is not unusual to feel your Taker wanting your WW to give more, but you will have to hold him in check if you want to save your marriage. Continue meeting her emotional needs.

I feel the same way as you. My wife had an EA/PA. I want her to fully commit to fixing the marriage. After all, SHE cheated on ME. Why am I doing all the work? The reason is, if I didn't, the marriage would be over. That is not what I want, so I have to suck it up and keep plugging along. Looking back over the past month plus, I do have to admit things have improved. When she first agreed to NC with other man, she said that she didn't think she wanted to be with me, but wanted to make sure. She didn't sleep in the same bed, and wouldn't let me touch her. She didn't go out with me on the weekends. Now we sleep in the same bed, she spends the majority of the weekend with me, we go out and have fun together, we cuddle, and she even let me peck her on the lips yesterday. She is letting me meet more of her ENs every day. She now talks about stuff we will do in the future together. I think we may have SF in the next month the way things are going.

Those are the thoughts you need to have to get through these tough times. Afterall, didn't you imply that you had SF just the other night? I haven't had SF since early August. I would kill to be where you are right now. I think about SF all the time. I was actually out at a bar with my friends from work on Saturday, and the waitress at the bar was a girl I used to have a crush on in HS, and she was basically throwing herself at me (giving me free drinks, telling me I looked good, telling me when she got off work and how she lived just down the street). It was HARD to turn down.

Hi Jim.

I know you're right about it being a slow process. And I realize it's my fear that's causing me to be impatient -- fear that things won't turn out okay; fear that my best won't be enough; fear that V will abandon me. It's something that I have to keep swallowing, and when I'm able, step into and deal with.

Six months, man, that seems like an eternity from where I'm sitting. It's not that I have any reluctance to do whatever it takes, it just seems like an awfully long time to continue dealing with this pain. I guess I know the pain will lessen over time, because it already has.

And yeah, V and I did have SF the other night. We have been pretty regularly through this whole thing, other than the first week or so. But I don't know how much of a gauge of recovery that is, since we were having SF even when she was still actively seeing Dale. It obviously makes me feel better to have SF with V, but alone it clearly isn't an indicator that things are fine between us.

Reading about your situation, my own does seem small-time by comparison in some ways, and I feel for you. As horrific as this experience has been for me, I can't imagine going through the pain you must be dealing with. But, for me, my situation is just as real and painful as anyone else's. A bit circular I guess, but I hope you understand what I'm saying.

I spend a lot of time worrying and second-guessing everything. V will say or do something that makes me feel better -- sending me text messages today from Ohio, for instance, asking how I'm doing -- and very shortly I start to question her motives. That hurts an awful lot. I actually questioned to myself today "Does she care because she loves me and wants to be with me, or is she trying to make sure I'm okay so it's easier for her to leave me?" So freakin' messed up. But I guess confidence is one of the innocent bystanders who gets hurt by betrayal.

Jim, I want you to know that your words here have helped me tremendously. At times, they've been a lifeline, giving me the strength to put one foot in front of the other. I don't know you, but I will never forget the kindness you've shown me. And I will continue to look for ways to pay that kindness forward to others (as well as the kindness shown by all my friends).

And I'm proud that you were able to turn it down. You obviously love your wife intensely, and you are walking in life with same the integrity and strength you talk with on this forum.

The last few days have been really good. V has been visibly quite happy, which has allowed and caused me to be happy also. I've been meeting her ENs, particularly Conversation, which has been very lacking in our marriage for a number of months.

On Tuesday, we actually had a real conversation about something other than bills, money, food, or our jobs -- just a completely external topic about which we shared our thoughts and feelings. It felt amazing, and I had a smile on my face the entire time.

We talked about the conversation on Wednesday, and V told me that she was thinking about how nice it was to just "talk" while we were talking and wanted more of it. We also decided that our more or less standard plan for evenings would be to spend a few minutes properly saying "welcome home" to each other after work, then we'd each spend an hour or so doing our own thing -- her tending to bills, checking her online comics and such; me getting dinner ready, puttering around, etc.

After that, the rest of the evening will be ours to spend together. And we're going to work on not just resorting to watching a movie every night, but rather spend some evenings talking and getting to know each other again.

All of this is great, and has made me feel really really good.

Then, last night, I spoke with her when she got out of work, which occurred about 20 minutes later than I expected. I could tell she was keeping something from me -- she's not good at lying or keeping secrets.

I asked her about it when she got home, telling her I felt like she wasn't telling me something, like she was lying to me. She told me that she hadn't lied to me, and I told her I believed her. And I honestly did try to, but I KNEW something was going unsaid.

This morning, I asked her about it again, telling her I couldn't stop thinking about last night. I asked her to promise she wouldn't lie to me, and she did promise. I could tell there was more she had to say, though.

While she was getting dressed for work, she told me that a female co-worker who apparently Dale confides in told her that Dale said he misses her. Apparently, he'd said not to tell V, but she did anyway. V said that she was freaking out a bit over this yesterday.

Also, V had a minor falling out with one of her female "friends" from work who I don't get along with, who knew about the situation with Dale and did nothing to prevent or hinder it. This friend accused V of telling other co-workers about her secret romance with another co-worker who works at the same store (forbidden by company policy).

I'm thinking that V might be starting to view this job as a source of pain and stress, and realize that it's only going to be a constant reminder of what she did and all the pain it caused. Hopefully, she'll come around in her own way and realize it's time to find a different job -- something I know I wouldn't be able to convince her of on my own (I've tried).

Today is again a day to focus on the positive, to meet V's ENs, and to keep sadness at bay.

NST,

I've got a couple of pointers. First, keep up the good work. Don't get impatient. You are a ****** of a lot further on than I am. Think back to last month when your WW told you she wanted to leave and wouldn't stop contacting Dale. You have come a long way.

Secondly, I would thank V for being honest and sharing that with you. You need to encourage her and reward her for her honesty. Let her know how keeping something from you made you feel last night, and how much better you felt this morning when she finally told you. Let her know it is safe to share those things with you.

Don't push your wife to get a new job, but lightly encourage it. Not only do you have occasional contact with Dale, but her "friend" is a negative influence. She is trying to stir things up by telling V about Dale. It also seems obvious to me that the EA was felt by both parties. Dale may know that what he was doing was wrong, but his feelings for V allowed him to do it anyway. He is still a threat to your marriage as long as there is contact between the two. If problems arise again, he is the first person she will run to, and he can't control himself.

Keep up the good work. Make sure you've filled out your EN and LB questionnaires, you are acting on those questionnaires, you are seeking some form of MC (with a pro-marriage counselor), you are working towards getting V into a different work environment, and you keep patient. Good luck.

Thanks again for the encouragement and advice, Jim.

You're absolutely right about us coming a long way since this started. But being patient, and especially keeping paranoia from driving me crazy is a constant battle.

Right now, she's working at a store other than her usual (something she does to pick up extra hours), but there's a part of my mind that worries she might be with Dale. She responds to my text messages, and I expect she'll call some time soon, but it's not enough to completely alleviate my fear right now.

There's also a part of me that fears she may have been talking to Dale last night, when she left work a little later than expected. Ever since last Monday, when he stopped up at her store, and I caught them talking in the parking lot, it's a constant fear of mine.

I told V last night that she's helping me a great deal by checking in with me regularly, but I feel like I need her to do it more than she does. Should I ask her to? I worry that I'll make her feel like she has to call me every 15 minutes just to keep me from worrying and being a basket-case. And I know she'll resent that.

I'm so danged uncertain right now.