I'm new to the board and am going to jump in like everyone recommends to do. Brief is not my forte. Me - 37 with a 5 year old and an 11 month old. My WSm, 35, has been going out to clubs since before the baby was born, but used to just go with his friend and friend's wife. In Jan. 2005, activity picked up. By March 2005, he was going every single Saturday night. Had major conflict/blowouts over it. I'm nursing so there was no way I could go with him. Always blamed on me for not trusting him. I make my peace with it (i.e., his headgames worked). Then in the Fall, his getting home time starts to drift later and later. By October, is 4:30 or 5:00 rather than 3:30 a.m. Then November 5:30 a.m. Last time he went out, two weeks ago, was 6 a.m. with a [censored] story of why. This is a gothic/fetish type club. Also conflict over him going to several fetish parties on top of the club and a concert with another woman several hours away where he had to be gone overnight.I now think he was not cheating with this woman. She was a decoy all along or maybe she was the first and he's on to the second.

No interest in me going with him to anything at all. He couldn't care either way. In the meantime, I'm trying to nightwean so I can go with him even for a couple of hours. But not going well b/c the baby really isn't ready for it.

Now November - significant change in his behavior. Saw him reading the poet we used to read together when first dating. Now he's thinking of getting a tattoo of a poem about orgasm in women - it's an e.e. cummings poem "n w" for any poetry fans out there. He hates tattoos and always has. Asks me a very specific question about orgasm in women which means he has had specific sensory experience of another woman (he didn't realize he was broadcasting this). I realize he's not touching me at all. Never reciprocates even when I'm affectionate. Then he starts trying to build a case that we should consider open marriage, he's a latin male, has needs, etc. The sex between us has been fantastic lately, like the last month or two. Now I know why - it's not me. Having said that, the last time, two days ago, right before I installed Spector, he had a difficult time getting it up. Very, very, very rare for him. Once up, he was fine.

We've been together 11 years, married 6. Met in a club and used to love to go dancing together pre-kids. Emotional abuse has been going on for years and I have almost lost friends over it from not leaving him. From reading the board, I realize I have really been part of that as well with AOs and Disrespectful comments. That has all stopped. All of it from my end in the last 2 weeks - a really lightbulb moment for me. No reacting has also let me see how much he does it to me.

I installed Spector and sure enough, he has one secret gmail account that he is emailing the OW on. He has talked to me about her before as one of his "friends' at the club. He has been very smart - no cell phone contact, no calls to the house, nothing. Email is nothing incriminating but obviously they have a very familiar relationship. I hired a P.I. and meet with him this morning. He will be tailed tonight (Sat.) and i will know more in morning.

Regardless of whether he is having sex with this woman tomorrow night, I am positive he has had it already with her. I am getting a divorce and am not interested in saving this marriage. I will put that out there right now. This is the nail in the coffin for me after years and years of emotional abuse. I needed the slap in the face and the wake up call. This has been effecting my oldest DD on a physical level (she constantly throws up) and I do not want her growing up thinking this is how marriage works.

I am here for divorce and WS support.

hanes,

Welcome to MB. I hope you are here for BS support because we really don't support, ws'. Nope we don't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So if you have made up your mind, what do you want gain from being on MB?

Just asking.

L.

hanes,

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I'm sorry you have the need to be here but you will find help & support in one of our forums.

Given the circumstances no one is going to fault you for choosing to divorce. And we do have a Divorce Forum to help you get through that. And if you change your mind and decide to give the marriage another chance, General Questions is a good place to start.

Whatever route you choose I want to URGE you to GET TESTED for STD's. With or without the PI's report, it sounds as though you have good reason to suspect outside physical activity and Human Immuno- deficiency Virus (HIV) CAN be transferred through breast feeding!!

PLEASE. Get to your doctor!

Nerlycrzy - you're totally right and I had not even though about that. I had thought about STDs but had forgotten breastmilk and HIV.

I'm really sorry but can't figure out what BS stands for - have looked around the forums for abbreviations but think it's just lack of sleep. Have only slept about 4 hours last night and 2 the night before and only 2 the night before that. I don't even know how I'm functioning. I'm concentrating on just getting through today.

BS = Betrayed Spouse

We all have been there "lack of sleep". I still having problems with sleep and it's been 6 months. I saw some place when reading a article. A person asked the woman how she got HIV. The woman replied "I got married". Please get yourself tested as soon as possible. I did and got a passing grade from my doctor. You will be not only protecting yourself but your baby as well. Is there any chance (after getting tested for STD's) of saving this marriage?

hanes,

Jump over to the Just Found Out Forum (click on the link). Lots of very useful info, especially on the top four sticky posts, including the list of abbreviations.

I'm really sorry to hear about your situation. The only thing that I would recommend is this. You just found out your spouse was cheating. Right now you may be too emotional to think rationally. I just want you to be sure that divorce is truly what you want. What if he never went out again, didn't emotionally abuse you anymore, and was a good husband? Would you stay married then? Once you decide to leave, chances are he will come crawling back. If you truly do not want a divorce, you can establish some marital boundaries that you must enforce (you've been letting him walk all over you for too long, you could have demanded more from him), and maybe he might start respecting you and change. This sounds doubtful in your situation, but it is something I want you to think about. If you don't want divorce to be your only option, talk to Dr. Harley, and he might be able to counsel you on your decision, and you and your WH if you decide to pursue that option. I'm the BS, and I know how horrible it feels. Whatever happens, you need to work on yourself and get some IC because know one should allow themselves to take the abuse you've been taking. It can be extremely damaging to one's self-esteem. Put yourself in God's hands. He has helped me immensely through this entire process.

- Jim

I do not think there is any hope for the marriage. I'm a psychologist myself and went to therapy at the beginning of the summer (I've gone off and on for years). WS refused and always has through the years (has had multiple, mulfiple requests to please go with me).

We had a huge fight this morning and I'm hoping I didn't jeoprodize the P.I. following him tonight. He would not say that he loved me when I asked directly. He said, "I go to work. I come home and help with M (our oldest DD). I rarely go out with my friends to drink and to bars. What more is there?" When I said happiness, friendship, affection. He said to leave him alone basically.

And I admit it was a trigger for me. "You mean you don't go to bars except for every Saturday night?" He considers it not "family time" b/c he doesn't leave until 11:30 at night when everyone is asleep. It is compartmentalized to him. I started crying and begging him not to go, that the thought of him dancing with other women drives me nuts and that I'm powerless, etc." And he insisted that he doesn't dance with other women but that he won't be rude to one if she comes and tries to dance with him which he said happens all the time, etc.He just said I was being ridiculous and we've had this conversation before. He's going. period. And then he said that maybe he needs to push himself to the edge to test his own will b/c that what it boils down to - his will. And I asked if he's willing to risk his children and he laughed at that as if it wasn't possible. And then he said something really revealing. He has insisted that he just wants to have sex with "other women" not a relationship. But then he said, "Before I court her, I will tell you." HER??? And "court?" B/c that's what he's doing! At that point I let it drop. I said o.k. I will not bring it up again b/c he keeps telling me to not talk about it to him, to leave him alone, give him space, etc.

Anyway, I called him later from outside the house and apologized and when I got home he's so cold and uncaring that then I think I didn't jeopordize tonight. i don't know. Maybe there's a part of me that wants him to feel guilty tonight so that I don't get evidence even though in my heart I know it's already happened.

When I got home I checked spector and he had emailed her (not about us but obviously learning about each other and where they're from, etc. Dating type of conversation).

I don't think there is hope here. He has been unwilling for years to not bend on a single thing that he wants to do whether or not I want him to do it. He has this whole "freedom in relationship" philosophy he has built up that has destroyed any semblance of a marriage. Yes, I have allowed it to happen. I see my part in it and I know I need to get back to therapy. But I don't see any hope in saving the marriage.

I brought up this program to him and he wouldn't even look at the website. He's not even willing to not go out when I'm begging him not to, so I have doubts he is willing to make any more effort towards reconciling.

And then I have my doubts. I still love him. I'm still attracted to him. And what if this secret email is just friendship building? Innocent? Maybe I'm reading things the wrong way? But is that denial on my part? If he did not mistreat me, yes, I would want to be with him, no one else. But I do not see him willing to change at all. He hasn't changed in 11 years essentially. Why would he now?

Your education didn't tell you NOT to apologize to a WS? I know this is hard and most of us don't know how to act or react around such an alienlike attitude (WS).

Ok, you are ready to write it off (you maybe right) but wouldn't it be better to try your best and use the tools here and on this board to give it your best b4 you leave the M? That way you will NOT have regrets.

Btw, I gotz a plan 4 u. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

“He hasn't changed in 11 years essentially. Why would he now?”

No reason to?

Give him a reason. In fact, give him several reasons to reason about.

Wife, children, reputation, paycheck going mostly to child support, STDs, eventually living old and alone, becoming an unredeemable dirt bag no one worth their salt will give the time of day to, his own children despising him… the reasons go on and on…

It sounds like you may be dealing with more than a smidgen of machismo. And maybe some recreational drug use? Sounds like it to me anyway. He will need a loud wakeup call now.

You implementing Plan A is a good place to start him in his reasoning process.

Give Plan A a couple of months, more than two weeks are needed for this to be noticed and trusted by an active WS. Especially the part where you eliminate DJs and LBs.

Then, if he has not responded positively, or the catting around gets worse, go to Plan B.

Plan B is where you play hardball. Plan B is where he experiences the consequences to the reasons he should stop hurting you. Like in: he will be hanging as far out there as he wants, but he will be hanging out there alone.

There is a lot of detailed info on MB regarding how to implement and stick with these plans. But, I recommend you call the MB counseling center. They will help you tune these very effective methods to your WS’s wavelength.

I want to emphasize the importance of the self improvement, self-soothing, aspects of Plans A and B. You should start making yourself a better, more successful human being. WS gets the spin off benefits, of course, but you become alive for you and your children, not for him. You not only no longer DJ/LB, you meet his ENs. But you not only meet his ENs you discover you actually like yourself and no longer need him in the first place. You will no longer fear the known nor the unknown!

You will be surprised at how alluring this makes the average BS. Suddenly he wants you like he never has before. Then you have parity with him, finally. Then you get to decide with a clear head what you want.

Plan B, I also want to add, is much better than giving it up to D so soon. Plan B gets you the same arms length remove as a D without shutting the door on your M. And if he does not eventually show up at your door with hat in hand you can D anyway. In Plan B you have a time to reflect, continue your self improvements without interference, and to decide with a cooler head if you want this M or not. You have nothing to lose with Plan B and a new M to gain.


Call the MB experts. You will not be disappointed.

With prayers,

You both have good points. Orchid, what is your plan?
It totally does not help that I'm a psychologist - (1) I work with kids and (2) I just can't see my own sh*t! Total blindspot.

I am thinking and thinking about Plan A and how to do a 180 and all the "rules" to follow with a WS. And giving it longer. I think I will give it at least until after Christmas and then I can re-evaluate at that point. Very good point about Plan B vs. D. I don't have to be in such a rush since I've survived 11 years already.

I was putting the baby to sleep to some of his favorite music and the lyrics all laid it out for me. He is in pain and has been trying to communicate that to me for quite some time through music. I just missed it, I think, concentrating more on my resentment towards what the music represents - him going out dancing. After I got the baby to sleep, we really had some genuine connection talking about the band, which is as close as either of us wanted to get to the subject. Thinking how it meets one of his ENs really helped reframe it for me.

He's out right now, so I just have to hang on tonight. I'm trying to take it day by day. I also re-read the emails from the OW and from him to her. They are definitely not innocent - very, very flirty.

Edit: I am reading and studying the plan A/Plan B and Lists of Do's and Don'ts, the stickies at the top of Just Found out.

hanes,

Reality bites doesn't it?

Now to the plan. Please read Surviving an Affair (SAA) and His Needs/Her Needs (HNHN).

SAA will tell you what to expect.
HNHN will show you how to communicate with a man.

Learn about plan A, identify your personal boundaries. Once that has been done and he is still a WS, implement plan B. Learn that these plans are by you, for you to protect you.

You can't control a WS, you can control yourself and protect your child as best as you can. Expect the WS to do and say very stupid and selfish things. He may even hurt you and the baby to keep the WS alive as a WS.

Your real H wants to escape but for now he is entrapped. There are tools you can use to help him escape.

Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. Secure your finances and setup your personal support group. Learn to move forward without the WS in your life.

For me, my personal boundary list started out long. It was chiseled down to 1 items, I choose NOT to have the OW in MY life. In my case the OW wanted more than the WS, she wanted what belonged to me and I refused to give up my name, my possessions, my child and my life to such a bad person. If it meant cutting off the WS at his balls, I was prepared t/d so.

Having a WS in my life was not healthy for myself nor my family, so I eventually got my mind and heart in sync so I was able to cut off the WS. When I did, my H say his chance to escape. It wasn't easy. The WS was powerful but not above the law of love.

I did my best and could move forward. I did move forward and soon I saw my husband running desparately trying to catch up. Behind him were the WS and OW panting to pull him back because he was their lifeline to their survival. The WS and OW had to keep my H hostage in order to survive. My H had to be free of the WS and OW in order to survive. So it was a matter of which one had the tools to survive.

Love conquer all. The A is not a product of love. It never was and never will be. That in itself gave me strength.

I learned to find strength and support from the most unusual places. You will find it too.

That's the start of my plan. Let me know if you understand it.

take care,
L.

I only have the middle of the night update, not what happened after 2:30 a.m. yet. My hypothesis is that they meet at the club and then go to her apt. in the wee hours. WS is definitely "courting" this chick. The PI said he saw no evidence of sexual relationship YET but that in his professional opinion it was ONLY b/c of the chick. That she wasn't willing to have sex yet with him. That she's an exhibitionist and has/wants men all over her. That WS was following her around like a puppy basically. He has severely underreported how much he drinks to me. He's buying her drinks and talking to her extensively but did not touch her in the club. They danced on opposite sides of the dance floor. That is b/c I think he's too smart. He knows the DJ's wife knows his friend's wife who would call me, etc., etc. if she saw WS doing anything.

That's all I know for now and the PI will call me later in the day to report the rest of the night. He got home at 6 am. again.

I feel pity for him - truly. Then i think of all the ****** he has done and the ****** he has said. It sickens me that I could watch him get ready last night like I did, sitting and chatting with him about his clothes and what he likes about what he's wearing, etc. and he could walk out the door with his intentions.

It sickens me how stupid I have been. But then I remind myself of the numerous, numerous occassions I have begged and begged him not to go, the huge fights, etc. and he went anyway.

Not that I dont' have a role in it that i need to explore in therapy and with friends, but that ultimately I have been working like a dog to try to save this marriage for years with nothing back from him.

And it truly sickens me what i have put our oldest DD through with all of our strife. It didn't really hit me until a friend casually said that maybe her throwing up is from anxiety. Of course it is. It's been getting more and more frequent and i can't believe how blind I have been to it. Also, whenever WS says 'who's your favorite, etc." which he does all the time, DD always says adamantly, "I'm in love with XX! i'm going to marry XX!" Such a loyal little girl to not choose sides. Her turning into a tyrant these last 6 months or so also is just so clear to me right now. Reflection of how he treats me.

I have not decided whether to wait it out and send the PI back out again when I think the affair has turned more sexual, etc. It will depend on his final report later today and honestly what i can tolerate emotionally. I have to pretend that i don't know anything, continue having sex with him, etc. And i'm not sure how long I can do that. I still love him deeply and feel for the crisis he is going through. But not enough to put myself and my children through any more.

I have been reading plan A tips and Plan B all night. Orchid, thank you for your plan as well. yes, I understand it.

hanes,

" I just can't see my own sh*t! Total blindspot."

You are a heck of a lot smarter than most psychologists/psychiatrists that I know.

If I were you, I would use his Latin machismo against him. Like ALL WS's, the entitlement belongs to themselves and not to their anguished BS's. Sitting at home, wringing their hands waiting for their beloved WS to return from their most deserved dalliances is exactly the picture WS's have of their BS. I would get out of the house even if only to drive around for an hur or so and making sure to leave all the bambino's with Senor Amor. Don't answer all his phone calls and especially wait inordinate amount of time to return those phone calls. Answer HIS inevitable questions with vague but truthful responses like " I was out just driving around thinking, I went to the Starbucks for some coffee, I spent some time with an old friend"

Now some people on this forum will call this manipulation and condemn this as being as dishonest as your WS. Don't believe them. Your courtship had a 4 ton elephant sitting in the corner called abandonment. YOU could chose to leave anytime you wanted to. That was one of the most attractive features about you.

Make him smell that elephant dung again.

Best of luck

Whether there has been PA or not, the EA affects on your family is enough to put him out on the streets. Will he do more? Possibly. Has exposure been done to his family? Hope so but don't expect full support. Plan as if you will have none and move forward.

Your child's welfare s/b more important than if the WS is having a PA or not.

Think hard about this one. Call Steve H @ MB for some phone counseling. You will not be the 1st one in that profession to be in this scenario. So don't feel bad. Steve will help you have a solid plan.

L.

You know...I agree with Cymanca. I did some of this a few years ago, and my H sat up and took notice.

I now believe that what was going on with him at the time was a 1-sided EA, but he was pursuing the woman. Anyway, he was spending a lot of time that winter down at the deer camp...and yes, he was there, although I do believe that he was violating one of my boundaries, which was no beer joints or bars without ME in presence. He eventually did stop going out to bars and beer joints without me. Just recently, he has stopped drinking completely!

Anyway, what I did on the nights he was at the deer camp was to get myself all dolled up, put in an appearance at the local bar for a quick drink (fuzzy navel) before leaving as if I was going out to a club in a nearby city. What I actually did was ride around a while (yeah, checking out the beer joints), go visit my best friend, or even go back home and park the truck behind the house and not answer the phone or get online.

Next thing I know, as I'm headed out the door, my kids appear with all 4 grandkids coming to spend the night. "Daddy said they could spend the night." Well, I love my grandkids dearly, but they were ages 2-7, and two of them are seriously ADHD. VERY hard to handle all of them by myself. They were gone before he got home the next evening. When I asked H why he invited the kids to spend the night, he said, "Cuz I haven't seen them in a while." Well, guess what, bud! You STILL haven't seen them!

The next weekend, the same thing happened. Well, I loaded up all the kids, drove down to the deer camp and said, "You invited 'em. You can either keep 2 of them down here, or you can get home and help me take care of all 4 of 'em."

He came home, cuz he knew I was hoppin' mad. He finally fessed up to inviting the kids in order to keep me at home.

I laid it on the line for him. I said that for all the years of our marriage, I had never kept him from doing anything he wanted to do. That I had trusted him and he betrayed that trust. I told him that he could still do what he wanted to do, but he needed to understand that I was gonna do what I wanted to do, too. I told him that I was not going to sit home and twiddle my thumbs and wonder if he was being faithful and still lying to me. I made it clear that I was going to go out and have some fun.

He said, "Well, you don't understand. There are guys out there who will take advantage of you." I said, "I'm sure you know all about that! Well, don't worry, sweetheart. I'm a big girl and my eyes are wide open."

There was more, but the upshot was that he did cut back on his time at the deer camp, and he made sure to take me out for some "fun". After a couple of slip-ups, he finally did stop going to bars without me. It took a calm, but public, confrontation about his violating my boundaries and me packing my bags for him to understand that I was dead serious about that.

Oh, and on the lying...well, I got part of the truth by "disappearing" for a few days. When I finally called to let him know that I was OK, he blurted out a confession about the ONS. This was before the deer camp stuff. I realize that "disappearing" when you have kids would be extremely difficult, but it did work for me. The only thing I would do differently is stay gone longer.

I talked to the PI and yes, he is having an affair. Just like I thought, he didn't touch her in the club so he wouldn't get caught. Instead they met in his car and did the deed there. He has it on video and I go tomorrow with a friend to review it and acquire it. The PI said there is no doubt. I feel like throwing up. We had to all go as a family to his office christmas party (I have an 11 month old *and* a 5 year old) and by the end (when the xanax wore off) I was having a panic attack, rushed to the bathroom and pretended I was sick and throwing up. Said we had to leave. Pretended to throw up again at home. It was all I could do to not sob outright. And during all this my H suddenly appeared - communicative, sweet, helpful, and caring. But as soon as I recovered a little he checked his secret email account. And then I looked at the lyrics he was looking at tonight and he is swept away with the OW. In a different world - definitely in the fog.

I am leaving. I will practice Plan A until I can get him out of the house. My mother is sending me money for a retainer for a lawyer and that will take about a week. Once the papers are filed, he is gone, gone, gone. I read and re-read Dr. H's stuff about emotional abuse and have decided that separation is the best course. He has emotionally abused me for years and years. Orchid, I will not let this new OW in my life at all either - absolutely no contact with my children. I will also read the books. She has to know about me since she was able to maintain no physical contact inside the club, dance on the other side of the room, fool a professional PI initially, etc. i don't know if she knows there are children involved but she will eventually.

I know I shouldn't but I feel worthless, not good enough. And then I think of what scum he is out with an OW while I'm home nursing our sweet baby. I am trying to also maintain a place of compassion for him, but it's so difficult.

Advice, please.

Hanes,

I am very sorry to hear your sitch, but welcome to the MB boards.

The only advice I could give you is to stay calm and don't do anything in haste. You mentioned that you have a 5 yr. old and that she is p.u. on the tension/stress in the household. I would advise if there is a discussion where you want him out of the house, or you tell him that you are leaving with the kids (if you own your own home, he should leave not you), try to have the kids at a relatives or friends so they don't hear anything that would harm them. Also, before you do anything you should plan out your finances and any other considerations you may have. Do you think he may become physical towards you if you tell him to leave?

Lastly, your worth is not defined by his fidelity. You are the one not running around late at night and providing for your kids and their needs. I will pray for you and your family tonight, hang in there.

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. If you need to leave him I understand. You also need to understand that plenty of people at this website have been through what you have and recovered to have happy marriages. I can't tell you what to do. However, I can tell you what will happen. Your WH will come back begging for forgiveness. You can bank on it. Affairs are like addictions. Your WH is addicted to his OW. Plenty of people have overcome their addictions with the right counseling and support. Others cannot. I can tell you this, your marriage can possibly saved if you want it to be. However, if you do, you need to demand respect from your WH. You can no longer let him treat you like a doormat. If you change your mind, we are hear to lend you advice and support on recovery. I wish you the best. Put your life in God's hands. He will take care of you. Your self worth is not determined by your husband's behavior. You will get through this. I'll keep you in my prayers.