One other thing thats been bothering me. On Saturday I found out, and she said it was over... she met up with the OW on Sunday to break up and she was in tears the whole day (at least from the swollen eyes, didn't actually see her really cry, just tear up).

Sunday night she went together with the rest of the office to set up for the conference on Monday, then went for dinner with an out of town colleague. She came back late because she said her boss then called them all back for drinks at the hotel, and she couldn't excuse herself early (the OW was also there). When she came back that night, she said she was feeling indifferent about the whole thing, maybe as a defense mechanism to protect herself, but that her resolve to end things is strong.

Monday she again worked late, taking colleagues out till late at night. Both times she came home she didn't look me in the eye, and was a bit defensive when I continued looking at her. She only warmed up after a while and sat down to talk a little before going to bed.

They say usually your instincts that something is wrong is usually correct, but can I trust those instincts when there's a good chance I'm just being paranoid after what I've gone through? She says they still talk to each other, all work related only, and only once the OW asked her if she was OK. But yet she does not make a conscious effort to distance herself from the OW, having lunch together (with most of the office she says) and such when she could have just called me out for lunch. I fear the worse

I also think that if it was just that ONE make-out session that it the feelings wouldn't be so strong. I'm afraid that they HAVE slept with each other and she won't or cant tell me about it.

Trust your instincts. The affair is still on from everything you have said. It may have become "just" an emotional affair rather than the physical affair it was before, but it is still on and very dangerous.

I would strongly recommend you read up on plan A, including the part about exposure. It is important that you are prepared and have a plan. Do a lot of reading, do your best to gather intel about her where abouts. So far she has offered little to make you feel you are wanted or that the affair is over.

So far her main statements about about HER. Will you forgive her? SHE needs space. She cannot end contact. Etc.
These are not the signs of a woman ending an affair. They may indicate withdrawal but I highly doubt it as she gets her "fix" every day at the office. Until that changes, the affair is on or ready to be on.

Your goal is to end the affair, and if that means an economic hit, you have to ask yourself...IS SHE WORTH IT?

Time for some reading, some planning, and some careful thought.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks Just Learning,

You've just put into words what I've been thinking. All her statements are about HER. How it will affect HER friends, how disappointed they will be with HER if they find out, how SHE needs space, whether or not SHE can go on with the marriage after this, and saying they SHE would not be so forgiving if the situation had been reversed. Never once saying how much I'm hurting, how wrong the affair was, how wrong it was to be with another woman (in fact, no mention or hint from this angle at all).

I'm just worried that even if she is telling me the truth that she wants to end it, its probably for all the wrong reasons: because I'll tell her parents and friends, because she *knows* deep down that she's not a lesbian -but NEVER from the perspective that she's hurt me, hurt our marriage and wants to set things straight. She always says she won't ask me to forgive her, saying there's nothing she can say and do that will make me forgive her... sometimes I think she doesn't WANT to be forgiven, that she hopes I won't forvive her, so she can feel less guilty and continue the affair.

I just want her to be honest with me. If its over, its over. Don't keep dangling me over the fire and then only think about her own selfish needs and the relationship with the OW. How do I communicate to her that if she feels that way, there is no way we can ever keep our marriage afloat?

How do you reason with someone who will lie through their teeth and deny angrily showing no remorse for what they have done, but who sometimes show you the old side of her? Is it a smokescreen to throw me off, or is she so confused that she doesn't know how to act with me anymore?

dev

IS SHE WORTH IT? ( I dont know just asking the Q)

I think JL has really brought up an important subject for you to seriously consider. I would suggest you consider this with the Harleys or someone with the same kind of experience in counselling M where there has been aldutery. Ordinary M counsellers usually just dont have the experience to help sadly.

I feel you need to consider this when you have not even been married for 2 years. I mean the blush should still be on the relationship.

Personally I would not like to say to anyone to end a M, but sometimes there is no option, but I'm not saying that here. I just think you need to get that thought out in the open because I can see it hanging there in your posts, so look at it, shake it out and see if it has any validity for YOU.
If so I again say go get professional advice first.

Now if you say yep thought about this and want to save my M then the hard road is just ahead .... exposure
to those who can help you end the affair (a whole chapter on that issue for you to read) seeking another job with her, no contact with ow for ANY reason, and Plan A or what ever the Harleys/counsellers advise.

Time & time again posts to this board show that instincts are usually spot on. Just expect the affair is continuing and operate from that assumption.

You'll be sick of me saying this but GET PROFESSIONAL ADVICE .... well meaning advice from non professionals who dont deal with adultery day in day out is exactly that ... well meaning but usually fails.

Hi Aussiewife,

Thanks for your views, I really appreciate that you guys would take the time and effort to help me out.

Tonight she finished a bit early, around 10pm and I picked her up from work and we came home and just sat down and talked for almost 2 hours. And I believed we were both honest in tonights conversation.

I told her she needed to stop seeing the OW and that she needed to resign from her job and get another. She said that she is willing to resign, but she wants to find another job and not just resign and have to take the first thing that comes along. Her father cheated on her mom years ago and her mother has been drumming into her for years that a woman should never forsake her career, like what she herself did, resulting in her not having the means to divorce her father and have to suffer for 20+ years. I know that she is sincere about this as she has told me as much before, and she says that she is making a conscious effort to do up her resume and to apply for another job.

So far, at work she has to work in a team, and unfortunately that team also consists of the OW. However, she has been taking steps to ensure that she is never alone with her, asking other colleagues when they go out for lunch, or making a conscious effort to call someone else when she needs to find out something rather than call the OW.

I also asked her about details of her affair, and she asked me why or what good would it do for me to know? I just explained that I needed to have the whole picture, and if I am to begin to forgive her and move on, I would have to know WHAT to forgive, and the magnitude of the infidelity. I said we needed to build on a foundation of honesty, and that I would not be left wondering at the gaps in the affair that may come back and plague me years from now, nor for her to always feel incomplete and guilty knowing that she had not been totally forthright with me. I then said that if she was not ready, then to just tell me so and not to put more lies on top of the lies. She was silent but agreed.

I then told her that years ago I knew a bunch of lesbians, via a gay friend. And my experience with them was that they were willing to do whatever it takes to get the girl they want. Knowing that they cannot compete on equal ground with a man, they will go to extraodinary measures to win a girl over. Things like standing in the rain waiting for you, or be super attentive etc. And since they're women, they know exactly which buttons to push. She was thoughful for a while, then said that yes, to a certain extent she could see where that was true and that it was an angle she had not considered before. Small victory for me to suggest to her that perhaps she was just a 'conquest', not quite but maybe a little bit if it will help her to distance herself from the OW more <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Overall, we talked about a lot of things. I told her she was probably not in a position to be able to feel or want to do the right thing etc. She agreed somewhat and said that she just wanted some space to think and that she's sure that she wants the affair to NOT continue, but that if I continued to push her for answers she can't give me now, she may just forsake both sides (me and the OW) and cut all ties with both as she was feeling squeezed from all sides. So, as much as it kills me, I will give her more space to think, more space try and to come to grips with what she did. Which is why I will give her more time to reflect (at least she's at home!) before asking her again to consider marriage counselling. In all fairness to her, she has had 15-17 hour days the last 2-3 days straight and probably can't give me any rational answers as she's not had the time to reflect on this.

On the OW, she said it was more like losing a trusted, good friend, apart from the other feelings she has. She said that she was someone who needs attention and love, and was afraid that if she continued with our marriage, she would stray again. She says maybe theres something wrong with her, and that maybe she's not built for marriage. I said that every human needs love and attention and when someone comes along and gives it totally, you will fall for that person, man or woman. She also remarked that it was also a bit of curiousity as well that lead her to the affair <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I think we had a good honest talk, and I think that things are looking better. I'm convinced now that she's trying hard to avoid the OW outside of work, and that she's slowly waking up to the reality of the situation, though we both agree that she can never fully wake until there is total separation from the OW. She said that for the first time in weeks, she has enjoyed talking with me, as tonight we have tried to be objective, no accusations were hurled, and no guilt-tripping each other.

We are making progress, I think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This morning she actually suggested that perhaps we could take a day off and take a long weekend off together. Good sign that she wants to try and spend more time with me, so I'll try to work on it.

I'm still a bit concerned about her contacts with the OW though. This week she's been probably too busy with the conference and such to feel the withdrawal from the OW, but next week when things are back to normal and they have to do their sales rounds together again, then what?

I told her that I will have this overwhelming urge to check on her, to know she's not with the OW and such, and though she may be upset and feel that I'm trying to check up on he or being obsessive about her whereabouts, I sometimes can't help it either. She says she understands. WHen her dad was cheating on her mum, her mum did the same thing, bringing her along when she was young to go wait for her father to try and catch him -so she understands that as she has seen what infidelity had done to her mother.

She talked about how she really resented her father for the infidelity, years after the whole affair. She spoke about how much she loved her father and how hurt she was that he could do something like that to his mother and to her and couldn't bear to face him for months, and that she kept that all to herself all these years. But she learned to forgive him eventually and to love him again. She agreed that she's probably not at the point where she has 'woken up' and go "What the heck was I thinking??" but I assured her the day would come, probably after she had time to recover from breaking all ties with the OW. She kept telling me it would be hard, like losing a friend etc, but I told her she MUST when she's ready, to weigh this OW against our marriage, but that I understand that she is not ready to do that yet.

"And my experience with them was that they were willing to do whatever it takes to get the girl they want. Knowing that they cannot compete on equal ground with a man, they will go to extraodinary measures to win a girl over. Things like standing in the rain waiting for you, or be super attentive etc."

Awwww, I think most women would love to have a man stand in the rain waiting for them. How romantic............

Maybe you can make some efforts in that direction.

[quote
Awwww, I think most women would love to have a man stand in the rain waiting for them. How romantic............

Maybe you can make some efforts in that direction. [/quote]

Haha, yes.. this was certainly a wake-up call for me to get off my butt and show she that I really love and care for her, and not to assume that she knows.

She mentioned one incident in which they both came out of the office and it was starting to drizzle... very little. But the OW told her to wait in the porch, ran to the car to get her an umbrella to escort her to the car. She was thinking "its barely even drizzling!" but secretly she was pleased... things that most married men would not do, they will go 'over and beyond the call of duty' because they know what buttons to push. Thats the advantage they have, as women themselves they know which strings to pull...

I'm just hoping now that the OW will move on to another 'conquest' and that my wife will see it and be hurt by it knowing that she was deceived. It will help to further sever the emotional ties to the OW, even if they now cannot stop see each other at work.

Well, women are strange in that they want to feel special. I really think that is what your wife is yearning for. The OW has picked up on it, and treats her like a queen.

So, you now have a lot of clues on how you can be her "knight in shining armor". Think back to the things you did to win her heart, and get busy.

It is good that your wife and you are talking. She doesn't sound as foggy as most. But it would still be good for her to look for another job.

Yes, she's working on it and I will help her with the resume this weekend. She;s got a BBQ session at the boss' place this Sat and she has asked me not to go, afraid that I and the OW will get into a fight, esp after drinking..lol...

You know, I mentioned about her suffering withdrawal symptoms from the OW and such... but I think that I am also suffering from withdrawal symptoms from my wife! I have not done any work at the office since Monday, half the time I feel like I can't breathe properly, I can't even eat must, leaving more than 1/2 my food uneaten (my colleagues have picked up on this). I send her messages calling her baby like I used to, but her replies are devoid of the affectionate tone they once had, just answering my questions briefly and to the point. I'm a mess now, even though we are trying to work it out, I'm still on an emotional roller-coaster... :-\

I don't know how others on the board may feel about this, but I don't think you should let her go to the BBQ without you. This may send a signal to the OW that the affair is not over. Besides, if she is not going to be working there much longer, then why is the company BBQ that important? You are her husband, and you should be able to attend this function with her. I'm sure you can reassure your WW that nothing will happen, and as long as you are there, nothing will.

I guess what worries me is that I have seen no proof (unless Ive missed something), the OW is really a women and not a man (OM).

You could explain to your wife that it would be disrespectful to you and to your marriage for you not to be there. There may be something more to this than her fear that you may act "out of line". Then again, if you know where the BBQ is to be held, you could show up later saying that you decided that you needed to be there to protect your marriage (don't let her know you're doing this).

Just my .02

Hi Bendover... I know its a woman because I've met her on a few occassions. About 2 months ago a bunch of her colleagues and I went fishing (with my wife also). I could already detect some tension from the OW, like a competitor sizing me up. I felt it but didn't think anything of it back then. Oh well, hindsight is always 20-20


Tonight I almost got another knife through my heart...

After work she had gone for this big company dinner. Arrived at the restaurant with a colleague around 6pm. I was at home and I was telling myself I need to pull myself together and such. Then I started missing her at around 8pm, fought the urge to call her to ask when she was coming home until I lost about 9pm and called her. She said dinner was over and that they were having drinks with the bunch of vendors and other clients and that she was going to stay a while more. I then messaged her at 920pm, asking her if the drinks were THAT important and that I needed her to be home (I know, pathetic, but I was really missing not seeing her the entire day). She replied saying that she was coming home. So I waited.... and waited...

After about 40 minutes just as I was about to call her, she messaged me saying "Sorry, just left. Coming back now". I called her back and asked her why she was so late. She hesitated and said that she had sent the OW from the dinner to her car (OW parked further away) and that they then talked for a while, but then she quiclly reassured me that nothing had happened. At that point I was quite numb, thinking "Oh Lord... its over!". In a broken voice I told her to come home and we'd talk about it.

That 15 minutes waiting for her to come home was a hurricane of emotions for me. Divorce, unfaithfullness, doubt all crossed my mind and I was just numb. When she walked in, I had my head in my hands and she told me "Lets talk"... I sat down and she explained:

The OW had drunk quite a bit (as was usual of her) and my wife offered to send her to the car down the street. When they got into the car, the OW tried to embrace my wife, saying how much she missed her, and how she realized just how much she had fallen in love with my wife.

But, my wife said she gently pushed her back and told her that she didn't want to carry on, that she couldn't do it anymore, the lies, the hurt. She said that up until that point, all week she was feeling like as though if it came to this exact situation that she would feel longing for the OW, that it would hurt so much from missing her, but strangely, all she felt was more akin to concern for a *friend*, not really any feelings of missing her, nor or wanting to continue with the relationship. She said she what she felt for the OW was more pity for her than of any feelings of longing, remarking that she probably missed the attention that was shown her, the feeling of being cared for, rather than for the person itself. ;D

The OW just nodded the whole time, and my wife finally told her to go home, sleep and not think so much. She said that when the OW finally got out of the car, instead of feeling a sense of loss and loneliness like she thought she would seeing her go, all she felt was a sense of relief...

When she told me that, the knife eased out of my heart, and it felt good. She said she was being totally honest with me, she was tired of the lies and would not lie to me any more cause she knows it hurts me so much. Deep down, I believe her, that what she said was true.

She remarked that when they were walking to the car, the OW mentioned that "See, wasn't I very attentive to your needs?" and at that instant, she remembered what I had told her about the way some lesbians operate -going all out to get the girl/conquest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, she's far from feeling any kind of real remorse still, but the fact that she's slowly severing emotional ties from the OW is a great sign. She wants to just fill up her time doing ANYTHING to take her mind off this whole issue, hoping that as time passes everything will go away. I think she's slowly 'waking up' but I have more motivation to stay strong! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree. What message do YOU send to the OW, wife and their work peers if you are not there. Be merry, and socialize with ALL the women. Your wife will have a need to watch you. Become a mystery to her.

Hi guys,

After thinking about what you guys said abot the BBQ, I told her this morning that I would accompany her to the function. She said, no, she didn't want me there. I said "Why, are you trying to hide something?" She said, no, the reason she didn't want me to go along was because the other day when I went to look her up at her workplace and I saw the OW, the expression on my face looked like I was going to kill her. She doesn't want to make a scene, afraid of what would happen should a confrontation happen. I told her what kind of signal was she sending to the OW, her colleagues and herself by telling me not to go? I then said in anger that is she's worried about people finding out, then the solution was simple: I would go to her office today and tell all her colleagues about it, her parents and her friends... I instantly regretted saying that, cause I could see a wall come up immediately and I had probably undone quite a bit of the progress we had made the last few days. After some discussion she told me that she was quite sick and tired of always coming home and talking, talking, talking.. tonight we had planned a quiet dinner, but she's not not looking forward to it cause she doesn't want to deal with it yet, is not ready. She said I had a lot of time to think and to move on, but she had been so busy and she doesnt want to move on yet. She said that she actually didn't feel like going for the BBQ after all, and I said she could still go and I would pick her up later.

Anyway, I later apologized for pushing and suggested we catch a movie tonight, less chance of awkward silences and such and she agreed.

I spoke to a close woman friend about this (I've been talking to her) and she said that right now I probably found it hard to accept that she has not much empathy for me or our marriage simply because men and women deal with problems differently. Men are task orientated, we see a problem we want to talk, and to work on it immediately so we can get things back to normal ASAP. Women on the other hand, are more emotion-orientated, and if my wife were similar to her, she probably doesn't want to think about any of this, preferring to carry on until the day it finally hits her. She told me she's sorry to say it, but that I would probably have to remain patient and wait for that day. My impatience to solve it NOW and get on with our lives as though nothing has happened is the biggest danger to any hopes of recovery.

Thinking about it, I agree with what she told me. I really believe that my wife was being honest about what happened last night with the OW, that she doesnt have the feelings she thought she had for her, that she's really started to detach herself emotionally from her. That to me is a good start, a very good one. And unless I can curb my impatience and usually-demanding nature, I will wreck any chance of a real recovery for both of us.

Any opinions please.

Hi devastated01,




I don't like this.

Her reply doesn't ring true to me.

How did you end this?

Are you going to go w/ her to the BBQ?

~ Marsh

Nope, I told her that if she felt so strongly about it, then I won't go. She said that she had also considered not going, and I think she's probably not going now.

I do understand that she doesn't want to cause a scene, not knowing if the OW and I will get into a fight. She says she just won't be comfortable there with the two of us at the BBQ and its only a small group of people and any tension would be immediately obvious. I really trust that she is honest about not wanting to continue seeing the OW, and its reasonable that she wouldn't want to cause a scene there also, so I decided to back out ofthe event.

Most likely she's not going now, but if she does she said she would excuse herself early and that the OW would probably arrive late anyway and that I could go pick her up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Dev,

You said
At this point trusting her is a bad bad idea. At best you must trust but VERIFY. The reason she does not want to talk about this is that she is guilty, she still has strong feelings for the OW, AND the OW is still working on her.

This dance is not going to end until you leave (plan B), divorce (very likely unless...), or contact is ended (about the only way this marriage survives.

She is cake eating. Your friends advice might well be true under normal social conditions, us guys do go at things differently, but when it comes to affairs, the behavior is amazingly the same. Heck, even the words are the same.

I see a lot of red flags in what you have related about her so far. Keep your eyes open, keep up plan A (read more about it), and pull back a bit.

Even if NC is established tomorrow you are looking at a year or two for full recovery. You two have not been married long so that needs to be considered. Even Harley has said if his W cheated and they had no kids he would leave. It does not mean you should, but the ties are a bit less as there is only the two of you to deal with.

This is tough stuff, so be patient, and consider getting counseling set up for yourself even if she won't go.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

apologizing for your comments ... wrong wrong wrong ... assuming you were not yelling at her or being threatening

You were NOT pushing you quite rightly questioning her behavior and reasoning. YOU SHOULD NOT APOLIGISE for that unless your behaviour was threatening.

Unfortunately while in her fog anything you say even good morning can be construed by her as a threat or adverse comment about her behaviour, you will just need to accept thats the way she will see things right now & be prepared for it. Placating her will not work but just support her affair. I'm not saying you atttack her, I'm saying you do not let her get away with disrespectful behaviour without challenging it

Please listen to JL there are red flags all over this situation, even her offer to not go to the BBQ, which by the way was manipulation pure & simple, is a warning sign.
She wants you & ow kept apart, I doubt the reason is becasue of the look you gave her.

I feel its close to the time for you to expose this affair if there are signs its still ongoing.

You need to snoop more and listen to JL and the really experienced people here... and seek professional advice too. Have you thought of trying the harleys?

Hi all,

Thanks for the warnings and all the well-meaning advices... you've been there for me when my spouse hasn't.

We met up around tea-time just now and started talking at the car park for about 30 minutes. I explored again her feelings for the OW after last night's incident and she said that she is starting to realize that even were she to continue this (lesbian) affair, it would not lead anywhere and that she had no future going on with it. She said the OW looked a bit miffed today after being rebuffed last night, and didn't really talk to her much today.

She says she has been so busy of late (and she has) that she has not had time to catch up with her emotions. And that right now all she wanted was to be left alone, to slowly come to terms with it in her own way, in her own time. She has not been procrastinating in finding another job because she had been simply too busy... and someone earlier mentioned about the possibility that all the late nights were untrue- well they're not, because I know about the conference and other people I know attended the dinners.

I know you guys see red flags from your own experiences, but for most of you, your spouse was not involved in a gay affair, so the reaction from the WS to it (esp one who is religious like my wife) may not fit your 'typical' list of signs and symptoms that the affair is ongoing. Also, what I experience and how I communicate it on a forum may paint a picture to you that is different from what I see in reality.

As soon as I'm starting to believe that we could move on, I see posts telling me that she's most likely manipulating me and is still cheating on me, and it reduces me to a complete mess of uncertainty and doubt -and it shows to my WS.

If there is even a 10% chance that she may really be telling me the truth, that her feelings for the OW is fading, that she really doesn't see a future, that she knows it will not go anywhere, that she WANTS it to be over, then I will chance getting my trust and hope broken again. But I think that I will not be able to forgive myself if I get so emotionally affected by the very well-meaning replies here that I actually destroy any genuine honesty that she is trying to show me. I HAVE to accept that she wants to move on, and that she needs more time to catch up with her emotions, that she will eventually feel true remorse. I need to be strong for myself, to rebuild my confidence and self-esteem and to have a hope that things are going to sort itself out, but to still keep both eyes open. So far, I have not detected the kind of evasiveness and had the feelings of dishonesty that I did before D-day. The guide says trust your instincts, and I shall do that right now because my instincts says that she is being honest. I need support and not more doubt.

I love you guys, and there will be a time for "I told you so" should I be wrong, but its a chance I'm willing to take.

Hope you guys can understand. Thx