I would like opinions on how important BS’s and FBS’s alike feel about how much their efforts to improve themselves contributed to A busting and their recoveries.

I know that in my personal situation self improvement has been vital in the recovery of our M. I’m curious how strongly other FBS’s feel about that.

This goes for the FBS that also ended up D’d. I would like to hear your opinions too.

I would like opinions on how important BS’s and FBS’s alike feel about how much their efforts to improve themselves contributed to A busting and their recoveries.

I know that in my personal situation self improvement has been vital in the recovery of our M. I’m curious how strongly other FBS’s feel about that.

This goes for the FBS that also ended up D’d. I would like to hear your opinions too.

Hi mate.

Interesting question.

I came to see "plan A" and even "his needs, her needs" as ways to improve onsesself as perceived by a single person - our spouses. That, of course, is crucial and is a proven affair busting and marriagebuilding program, but I believe there are two other very important additional considerations :

1. How * I* like me
2. Being loved and appreciated for who I am, not what I am trying to become through meeting ENs.


The first point is most important - I will be in my skin until the day I die and I need to be proud of who I am, whether I divorce , stay married or whatever.
I should be my own most critical audience, but also my most honest.

When all seemed lost during Squid's affair after d-day, I decided I should retain my dignity above all else. I needed to invest everything I could for teh sake of my kids and my marriage vow, but not to the corruption of my dignity.

To this day I am proud of my efforts in that. I did little of which I am now ashamed during that trying time. Also, by a miracle, my dignity catalysed a new respect for me in Squid, even when foggy. That was not the purpose, but it was the effect of my maintaining boundaries. Pre-A I never really had fixed boundaries so this was a significant self-improvement that also contributed hugely into recovering my marriage. I am self actualised, and more confident now than I was. And a much better father,although I am also a worse friend than I was and perhaps overly self-reliant.

The second point is more complex. I am a huge fan of Dr. Harley and MB so it is in hushed tones I whisper this - HN/HN seems to be about becoming something that is lovable to our spouse, against our instinct. In short ; it requires that we acknowledge our ownself is not easily lovable by our spouse so in order to fill the love bank, we deliberately change our interface.

So we become something we are not by nature, so as to retain the love of a spouse who doesn't "love" what we are without such effort. I become less comfortable with this as a concept. Of course it works well where BOTH spouses equally invest, but IME few marriages are equally invested.

NH / HN seems to be a recognition that couples DO drift apart and need to work to stay lovable to each other. That would seem to "justify" some affairs.

Back to point 1, I think I have many good attributes and mak a decent husband & father without having to change radically to meet newly-generated ENs of my spouse. is there no requirement on us to change our NEEDS to meet our otherwise thoroughly decent spouses ?

So, Plank, yes my self improvment was vital to our recovery, and my own renewed sense of self worth makes me question somewhat the fairness of my having to meet uninstinctive ENs.

That make any sense ?

I would have to say the personal improvements I have made has had no positive effect on our recovery. (If in fact we have one). Perhaps the changes I made kept us from having an immediate divorce, but that's all I can see. The A didn't end because of my changes and it certainly hasn't caused WW to reevaluate things and say "I'll do whatever it takes to keep us together".

At one point during all of this, I finally said to my WW that while I certainly agree that I needed to make some changes, I don't see any evidence that my actions were a core issue in our marital problems. By that I meant, I had addressed all of the actions that my WW said were disagreeable and nothing had changed in her feelings towards me. Its still "I love you, sometimes I have romantic feelings for you, but..."

In some ways it seems that my WW feels that its easier for other people to change their behaviors, but that she has some unique characteristic that makes it more difficult for her to change. When we were going through MC and talking about changes that needed to be made, she said to me, "Its easy for you to change, you've always been able to decide what you want to do and make yourself do it"

In some respects I think the changes I've made have made our attempts at recovery more complicated. As an example, I used to be very prone to AO's. I don't do that anymore. But now, when I express that I'm unhappy with something without an AO, I don't seem to be heard.

Finally, I agree with Bob's second point very much. We can all become very skilled at being good M partners, but IMO, at some point you cross a line where you are no longer who you are.

BP,

What made me think about this question was really a serious episode of self introspection here in the last couple of days.

I’ve also been reading about one poster’s situation where this seems to be the key ingredient that he’s missing in his efforts which is frustrating to me because I don’t believe we can help him until he figures this part.

This caused me to reflect on what caused me to undergo the whole entire metamorphosis from Plank- the guy who just bounced around life happy go lucky to Plank- the guy who lives a conscious life.

I don’t know if Dr. Harley’s plan is specifically designed to foster self esteem in a broken BS or if it’s just a natural result due to the trials of enduring A busting and recovering in a M; but I do understand that it’s extremely important for a BS or anyone to develop boundaries.

And we all know that healthy boundaries and their systematic daily enforcement are VERY important in living a happy M.

You know BP, I also remember having an epiphany where the importance about being the best man I could be overcame the NEED to have my M survive.

It seems like this was pivotal for our relationship.

It sort of goes along with the “open the cage door” concept I believe. For me, it was a realization that no matter what happened between us that if I was left alone with kids to raise I’d be a better father, friend, and future SO for someone else.

Plus, I realized after a while that my life had become no less than servitude to others. AFTER all of the bullsh!t came to my realization I was left with empty feelings of wasted efforts and days up in flame with little personal satisfaction other than the esteemed feeling I had once had of taking care of my W and family.

Well, more specifically I felt that if none of it mattered to her anyway and I was left with basically diddly squat, that I was going to claim some of my life for my own again.

When the light bulb went off in my head I decided that my spiritual, intellectual, and physical self had to be satiated and balanced or I would be unhappy. I looked to my FWW for the model of dissatisfaction with self and applied those hard lessons to myself.

As a result of the infidelity struggle I like myself more now than I ever have. I’m not saying that I surely can’t improve on many fronts, but I feel like a much more firmly grounded person in general.

I wouldn’t want to learn anything else like this though!

It’s interesting that you talked about retaining your dignity above all else.

When I was in the stages of discovery, NC enforcement, and acting like a detective I felt dignified but my W was spewing all SORTS of hateful venom at me saying that I was a desperately pathetic needy sad man.

It almost makes me laugh in hind site remembering how HARD that was, the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life, and she was trying to convince me of my weakness.

As for the HN/HN concept on fulfilling each other’s EN’s; I have heard my W saying that “she wants her old H back”. So, I try hard to fulfill her EN’s while at the same time being the man that she fell in love with. It’s a tough balancing act sometimes.

But rprynne have you improved? Are you a better person?

Are the things that you have changed GOOD changes of things that needed to be changed anyhow?

hugely contributed

but not all at one time

and also, in unexpected ways

my lingering stubborn LB issue ... the one that took me the longest to address .... turns out to be the one that improved our marriage the most

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I think the reason I held on to this particular old-behavior a relatively long time was because ... it was very much modeled by my mother and I had adopted her behavior almost without noticing

prior to changing my own un-wanted behavior, I had to confront the fact that it was actually MY MOTHER I was confronting

that took some time

this was totally unexpected for me

Pep

early recoverers ... be patient

sometimes the fruit develops slowly

Hmmm. Well a I guess a lot of the answers depends on one's perspective. From my perspective, the answers are always yes and no.

The things I changed came with a cost.

AO's are a good example. Stopping those involved holding my emotions in check. Well for some, my emotions, my passions were nice to see because I had "happy" outbursts as well. I don't have either anymore.

I don't know if my changes are going to lead to recovery or not, since I don't feel anywhere near recovered yet. I do know that the biggest change in W's attitude came when I "opened the cage door." I too came to the place of realizing that whether we stayed married or not, I was going to be better, stronger, more in control of my own actions.

I lost 12 pounds the first week, moslty from not eating. In ensuing months I have bought a home gym, assembled it (3000 parts!) and use it, at least 3 or 4 times per week. I spend less time at work, and more with my W, DD31, DS21(when he is home) and our granddaughter(almost 2 and the light of my life)

I also had a total change in attitude at work. It is no longer my problem who doesn't show up or calls in sick or doesn't do their job. I do what I need to do to take care of MY customers and if it means someone else has to jump through hoops for a change, so be it.If I have to be somewhere at a specific time, I go on time and it is up to my employer to figure out how to cover the other things that come along while I am out of the building. ( I get LOTS of phone calls while on the road.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Whether any of this helps in recovery, I'll know when true recovery comes. I still see myself in a sort of Plan A. Doing a lot of work, reading, studying and giving more than I get at times. NC has held since May and we are moving forward, but I still want to steer things in a different direction than we are currently going. I guess our OLD M is back, but I now need for it to be something MORE, a NEW M.

Mark

Plank- the guy who lives a conscious life.

This has made my life harder. Not YOU living consciously ! me ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I no longer take anything at face value. By default I expect people to not do their jobs in a chain of stuff that needs doing. I am forever building and disassembling safety nets emotionally as well as practically.

I LIKED trusting people. Life was much easier then.

Plank:


Oh my, my wife said the same thing. Yet she is happy with many of the changes I made in myself. I did tell her "You can't have him back, you shot him in the heart." The facts speak for themselves, I can't have the blind trust in my wife I formally had and that is what I told her.

This is one key behind Harley's concept that none of us should have blind faith; yet all too often that is exactly what we expect and want from our loved ones.

Then one day we wake up and find we cannot have that childlike emotion; blind faith. And it shakes us to the core of our being, possibly because we expect others to have blind faith in ourselves.

I think the guy who figured out the theory of cognitive dissonance got it right.

Larry

Self-improvement is a good thing whether the WS sheds their skin and dies (bringing your real spouse back to the land of the living - aka: no more zombie WS) or not.

Why? Because it is 'self'-improvement. Recovery comes at 2 levels: Personal & Marital

Personal recovery is within the grasp of each person. Marital recovery is dependent on both the H & W being back in full control of their senses.

Plan A isn't about winning back the WS. How can or why would you want to win back a WS? YUCK!!! Instead it is improving yourself so that you are the attractive lure to pull your real spouse out of the captivity of the WS and mothership.

See the WS is taught (yes, taught - this is a learned thing, not a inherited thing)..... taught NOT to want the BS t/b happy or move forward.

Therein lies a vital tool. What is that? For the BS t/b happy with themselves and move forward.

How t/d that? Plan A, make those true permenant self-improvements....which of course the WS will try to shoot down (even though many admit they are good changes)...still the WS will try to water it down by saying they are 'temporary' changes and how can I (aka: WS) be sure the BS' changes are for real?!?! Give me a break....the Reverse Babble come back s/b in line like: How can you trust anything eminating from a WS' mouth? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Plan B puts to action those changes and makes real strides in the BS moving forward because with these self-improvements, one learns they no longer desire t/b around a self-centered WS.

Like I told my WS (at the time), 'you taught us how to live without you and we know we will survive'. So he no longer could play the 'you can't survive w/o me card'. I burned it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

From my experience, I learned that I am content with doing my best. I will make mistakes of which I will admit to the true ones and RB back all the false accusations to the best of my ability. For those of you that know me or have read some of my posts, know I can RB fairly well. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The words and actions of a WS, no longer stick to me. I am coated with the non-stick slick of reverse babble and other essential tools I have learned from here.

While compassion is a good quality, it is NOT to be wasted on a WS. I cherish and respect my time and efforts. I am not afraid to acknowledge my shortcomings and show gratitude for my good accomplishments.

The immature like to think I am haughty or they charge me of being 'bossy', always want t/b right and never make a mistake.

How foolish of them. The mature ones know my faults and appreciate my good points. I in turn give them the same respect. I have found inbetween the idiots and WS' of this world, there are many people like my struggling to survive.

Stepping on toes doesn't stop my day. I try to think ahead. All that practicing in front of the bathroom mirror has paid off. Reverse babble flows out when needed with remarkable results. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry for the long post but the topic peaked my interest.

For you newer ones, know this: Be patient. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. The road ahead w/b long, winding and bumpy. They don't call it a roller coast ride for nothing. Pay attention to the posts here, it could save you some grief. If you want to know if it c/b worse, just read. You will hear some whopper of stories. Ones that will make your toenails curl. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ....or send shivers down your spine. It may even move you to tears. Do your homework. These self improvement points won't jump out at you all the time. You have to search for it. You may surprise yourself at what you really identify as your boundary. Know this will take time. Your healing time will come. You will go through phases good and bad. All progressive steps as you journey ahead.

Don't be afraid to leave the WS behind. Look for your real spouse, he/she will find you. Don't be a target for the WS. Love and reassure your children and let them be part of your support group and you a part of theirs. Stand as 1 united family package as you all battle the WS. The WS does not like t/b out numbered. That is why exposure is a good thing in most cases.

Do not all the WS to make you enable the A in any way large or small. Be on the look out for their attempts.

There's more to tell but I think you get the gist of this.... I sure hope so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So is self-improvement important for the BS and FBS'? YES!!!

JMHO,
L.

I would say that when a plan A is strategized it has aspects of self improvement...

it should if and when implemented be part of the basis of building a plan A

it is about addressing the "reasons" the WS uses for their affair....(insert politically correct statement that there is nothing a BS does or doesn't do that is responsible for the actions of an affair)

Also plan A is all about

thinking before acting or speaking
learning to communicate in a way that is most likely instictively opposite to what their high running emotions tell them to do....
staying put when they feel like fleeing...

plan A is all about surprising a WS with actions that should draw them near...

even if they are just calm collected actions when the WS was counting on a raving lunatic to help foster their affair....and it's continuation....

Some WS really resent the changes iniatially and use them as weapon..
ie

why change now
why help with the kids now
why do this now
why do that now...
etc....

plan A changes need to be consistant...over a long period without expectation of positive results further down the road....

also I don't like telling new BS that plan A is all about making changes for themselves....

too often people knee jerk that mantra in to seperating emotionally from an active WS...

I do think you need to seperate from bad behaviors in a WS but that you MUST replace them with other positive things..otherwise you harden your heart too far from getting it back..

you learn to live without the WS totally not because they cant or won't change...but because the BS themselves had created a world of intolerance of all actions..the good and bad....

while it is a survival mode it can also be the death of recovery....

plan a in my opinion should be taught as negotiating (with a terrorist at times...) the ending of an affair...

self improvement is an important by-product...
and it is very powerful for the BS to find new ways to stay and feel in control of themsevles when faced with chaos...

but it is not what plan A is about...

ARK^^

ark, how do you navigate your heart in such a way that you self preserve and still allow WS emotional access to you. My WS is still having C, but sometimes I feel reconnecting, wanting to spend time together, go out, but relating is strained, I don't ever know what to say with the elephant on the table. then days WS is distant again, superficial conversations. I don't know whether to give space, let WS take the lead, or try to emotionally reconnect again?? Plan A seems to be working but finding it difficult to navigate the middle ground, and until WS commits to NC, is it wasteful to try to emotionally connect???

I don't believe I could do a Plan A, if I thought I was doing it for self-improvement. The only way I think I could do it, do it well, and do it for any length of time (3 months is a long Plan A for a woman and very hard to be consistant this long if the changes hadn't become real) was if I kept in my mind at all times that I was using it as a tool to end the affair.

And for the reasons that Ark states but mainly because I would have to emotionallly distance myself from my WS so much that recovery would no longer be something I wanted.

But some of things we learn to master such as not LB'g are lifelong positive qualities that could only improve any relationship, and to me would be the best by product of Plan A.

Next, learning to put someone else's needs before our own during a time when we needed to to save the marriage, or to bring him back from self-destruction. This is what love is in my opinion, and why I don't see it as manipulation at all.

And lastly learning to be a calm harbor in a storm of stress and devastation.

All valuable lifelong skills but I can understand perfectly what Ark is getting at by saying if Plan A is not viewed as it was meant to be viewed, it could be the death of recovery.

Bob, you said:



I keep thinking about this, it hit on something I have long had a problem with in the meeting EN's department, but don't know if I am correct in feeling the way I do.

Still can't decide on this point, but I see how important it is.

I;m not Ark, but my thoughts are that it is not wasteful to try and connect emotionally during Plan A, it would be a good thing. You must let him take the lead in this dept though, as you cannot become clinging, needy, or demanding. This might be hard to accomplish if he were not taking the lead.

If he seems like he wants space, give him space. If he seems like he wants to get close let him.

It's all about him right now.

I wanted to add that a girl at work, and a good friend of mine ended her husbands affair and brought him home to her by doing a Plan A, but never once mentioning his affair. Not once did she confront him about the affair even though she was 99% sure he was having one.

She listened to all his complaints, rationalizations and justifications and used them to radically change the way she related to him.

His complaints were about lack of sex, her nagging, her bossiness, her disrespect, etc. She immediately changed those behaviors and became very loving, but not needy or clingy.

It took about 5 months but he is back home now and not involved in his affair any longer.

It was excruciatingly hard for her, but she did it.

Plan A seems to be working but finding it difficult to navigate the middle ground, and until WS commits to NC, is it wasteful to try to emotionally connect???

you should be focusing on building and execution of your plan B....
NOT waiting for NC...

emotionally connect...
all the while plan B is in your back pocket and ready to roll on the date and time of your choice....

isn't that why it's called plan A <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ARK^^

Pep,

You talked about changing your unwanted behavior and I have done the same.

We never talk about how I conduct myself differently these days but I certainly do. I try to be aware about how I express myself and not do any LB’ing.

That’s one of the main differences that I can see in my own behavior. I used to be quit a big LB’r before I found MB’rs.

I used to speak with lots of hidden DJ in my words. Some of it was outright and some less blatant.

I also have cleaned up my AO really well. I think my last AO was last February, and of course, I was drinking like a fish when that occurred.

I agree with early recovering. It’s likely snake oil.

Larry,

Sometimes I wish I could give her that guy back that was harpooned. For good or bad, depending on how you view it; that is all but impossible.

And frankly, I don’t ever want to go back there even though I know it was a life that seemed much easier to live.

I don’t believe that God disperses A’s among marriages but I do believe that he intends for us to take away the lessons that we needed to have from harm that befalls us in life.

This is just another one of those things.

The thing is, that I realized on DDay that I was changed forever. In hind sight that was not a rash and fleeting intellectual call on the issue.

It is what it is and we just have to move on.