Rinder:

Let him Clean it up. Get some crime scene ribbon and rope it off for your kids. But it was his anger that broke it. Let him deal with that.

So you had some miscommunication about last night events. He gets to break things? He has to own that.

It happens to often, the angry person breaks something, others clean it up, and the angry ones do not suffer for thier actions. So, let the stuff sit until he deals with it. You told him to do it, so if you clean it up, he wins. Be prepared to have it like that for a long time.

He "Doesn't clean house?" Cool. Make sure he doesn't dirty it then, ok?


LG

Thanks, LG...

I am a little stressed out about the situation.

I mean it's not like he still couldn't go after I got home...it's that he chose to stay home...pout...create chaos...upset the kids...etc.

I told DH a few hours later that I had to calm down his son and that I told him that it's okay to be angry.

DH didn't say a word to me, but the look on his face was one that could have killed.

I've come along way in understanding that it's okay for him to have his mood and that I don't have to take it on myself. I was proud that I remained calm and didn't react to his comments or his actions!

I plan to call my sponsor and talk with her about it later!

Oh, and NO, DH doesn't clean house...at least not often...his comment about it didn't bother me at all...I feel that my house IS clean for the most part...So scr*w him...sort to speak...

Rin

Your husband had two problems when you came here - his tendency to use violence/rage to get his way, and his cheating ways. You can't truly have recovery in your marriage until the big elephant in the living room which has a direct impact on the emotional wellbeing of your children is no longer ignored.

This isn't just a relapse - this is a test to see if you will go back to your conflict-avoiding ways, or if he gets the full consequences of his actions.

I might go so far as to take the children on a little day-or-two trip and let him know that when his mess is cleaned up, you'll bring them back home.

Oh - and just in case he's just getting started into his relapse - take pictures so that you can show legal cause to remove the children from the home.

Hello, KA! I do plan on taking pics...just in case kind of thing...

I will not allow him to intimate me anymore...I didn't like the old ways and I'm not about to go back to them...

I did think about going away for the weekend...

I'm tired of enabling, I'm tired of feeling responsible for the house, the kids, working full time...he's going to have to man up as far as I'm concerned...

Thank you, I appreciate your insight! I just have to make sure that I follow through...

Well, I called my sponsor and spoke with her a little while.

While I was on the phone with her DH called and let me know that the papers that he had to sign with some friends of ours who are getting D today, final today. They awere signed in the wrong parish and they are on their way to the other parish. DH said "ok, baby, I just wanted to let you know what I was doing!"

I said Okay, I'll talk to you later! I was upbeat.

Anyway, my sponsor said that she thinks that I'm doing a great job but that I need to call it to DH attention that he is tramatizing the kids with his behavior. She also said that she feels that DH is fearful right now of the changes that I've made and that she thinks this is making him feel insecure.

I can understand that...the thought has acrossed my mind. I'm willing to stick this out...it's a big transion for DH. He's being working nights and he's not use to the way I handle things now. Not only with L and F, but with him.

It's not like I can teach DH, he's not going to listen anyway. It's something that he has to learn on his own. I feel that I can bring reality to him...by being O&H about his behavior...bad choices...my feelings...etc.

My sponsor also offered that should I ever fear that he will harm me and/or the kids that I am more than welcome to go to her house and we will figure out where to go from there. I really appreciate the offer...DH doesn't believe in hitting women but we all do things that we normally won't do sometimes.

Any ideas on how I should address the issue today about last nights event...I need to talk about the effect on the kids...I've already stated that I was not going to clean it up, so that subject will be left alone...

I don't know...I do think that he needs to deal with the consequence and my main concern is not softing them for him. He needs to own up to them.

Oh, what to do? lol

Hey Rin,

Sorry to hear about this blow up, but you know what needs to be done. NO enabling, let him stand on his own here. You just take care of those kids. I would say that KaylaAndy gave you great advice. Take a weekend trip if you can, or take a long day trip. Let your H know that this is HIS mess to clean up. Also, try to remember that you may be tested to see if YOUR changes will stick, or if you'll leave him on the first sign of problems. I've heard that the WS can be deathly afraid of involving themselves in recovery to only be dumped by the BS later. No giving in, you hear! Remember, No fear (unless you FEAR for your safety, no fear for having him own his mess). I would think of ways to adress the damage that is being inflicted on the children, as spoken by the children. Have the children ever told their father of their fears when he becomes enraged? Well, you think on it, and stand your ground. You are no mind reader.

HI, All! SL- Thank you for your POV. I appreciate that.

Well, I didn't have todo anything. DH just left my office. I said in passing L came into the bathroom with a big piece of glass this morning and DH said that he vaccuumed it up!

We walked outside and he said that he didn't mean to bring up last night again but he felt that I didn't care. I said that I was sorry that he felt that I didn't care. I did care and that I thought he wasn't going because he came home and started looking for the tool to fix the utility trailer.

I asked what time bike night started and that I didn't know because he hadn't gotten home in the past until 10 sometimes. I started that I would like to caulk if up to a miscommunication/misunderstanding. I also stated that I thought he was sincere when he said for me to go and that I was surprised when I returned home to find out that he wasn't.

I also told him of my story for childhood when my parents fought and that I was about F's age when I remember the glass breaking. I said that I went out the back door and climbed my favorite tree. I stayed there for hours until my mom came get me with a flashlight.

I told him about this morning's conversation with the kids and what I had said to them.

He said that he was trying to get over it. So, I said that I would like to take Tues. and he could take Thurs. unless he had a different POV. He didn't say anything.

So, I spoke my peace and he spoke his...hopefully we can move on...

Right now, DH is at the house...we're going to eat lunch together and then return to work.

Thank you all! You're support means SOOO much to me! I'm very blessed to have all of you in my life!

You sound like you are handling things well. Now, I guess, the trick is communicating in this way WHEN the questions come up, not waaaaay after, Right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Hope you have a great weekend.

Rin,

You know what struck me as odd about the whole thing is why did it get here?

Was there POJA on these things? Things in your M are changing for the better.

Now that H is home at nights because he is working days you guys should have talked about this stuff already.

Not pointing fingers at either of you but this is a new M not the old one.

Now my POV on the bike night vs al anon night. Bike night is once a week Al anon has meetings several times a day every day.

His reaction though was totally out of line.

My FWW has two meetings a week she likes to go too. Mondays and Thursdays. I accomodate as much as I can but if I do have something to do or if one of those nights was a night I wanted to do something on a regular basis I would ask her to change because the program is flexible.

My POV only.

Now should he have gone off the deep end and acted like a child who didn't get his way. Heck no. However it seems like you guys are taking steps forward. Everyonce in a while a step back is going to happen.

As long as you stand your ground then you will be ok he is testing you.

Remember three months before it takes hold.

You will be ok. Just let him know it wasn't acceptable like you did and tell him he is a big boy he can clean up his own mess. (Don't say it like that use more tact.)

Hey, Rin...

"We walked outside and he said that he didn't mean to bring up last night again but he felt that I didn't care. I said that I was sorry that he felt that I didn't care."

What? WHAT? Rin...please focus...you are apologizing for your H's perception, his feelings. Is that respectful? Listen and repeat...you stepped right over that he didn't want to bring up last night...now there's a big important issue to discuss...and he stated something. Notice that...restate that..."You don't want to bring up last night...and I don't know why...and you are doing so now to share with me that you perceive I didn't care, is that correct?"

You reacted...and you betrayed yourself and your marriage. You took ownership away from your H...and I believe you did this a lot over the years...and you stopped. Please notice.

"I did care"

Refuting...you know you care all the time. You know this was an important event. You posted here what your thoughts were, how you were tracking and deciding...great self-care and honor to your marriage. No refuting required.

"and that I thought he wasn't going because he came home and started looking for the tool to fix the utility trailer."

Great ownership of your own assumptions...this was a black and white event of assumptions...how easily you guys do them, back and forth.

"I asked what time bike night started and that I didn't know because he hadn't gotten home in the past until 10 sometimes."

You assumed...he assumed. State those. For clarity.

"I started that I would like to caulk if up to a miscommunication/misunderstanding. I also stated that I thought he was sincere when he said for me to go and that I was surprised when I returned home to find out that he wasn't."

Was this a DJ? He was uncommunicative and assumptive. I wouldn't chalk up anything...I'd state, "Wow, this is really about assumptions...mine and yours. About mindreading. And me judging your sincerity...I take you at your word. You said it was okay with you that I go...so I went. I trust you to tell me what you're thinking. I choose to do that because only you know."

"I also told him of my story for childhood when my parents fought and that I was about F's age when I remember the glass breaking. I said that I went out the back door and climbed my favorite tree. I stayed there for hours until my mom came get me with a flashlight."

Great story...now, having lived as a child in a marriage with no boundaries...and a lot of trauma...what are yours? His actions fall into Domesitc Violence...I do realize that he's just gotten back to days, you aren't in counseling to recover, nor is he...it would suck for him to be arrested right now...your choice. He would be. I want you to understand and be aware that you are consciously getting in the way of the natural consequences for his actions.

I would love you to refocus on what is...not why it is...after he'd done his tantrum...that's not a DJ...what he did was act out his anger instead of state it...to bring both boys into the livingroom and state what occurred. "Your father chose to do this" describing his actions. Then the boys could share, or ask...their own whys or not...just share how they felt.

Not you smoothing over as your mother did...getting you out of the tree...honesty...for reality...where our only security really dwells...not judgment...not escalation.

You can state, "This is violent behavior. Your father is leaving for the night" or "we're leaving for the night, so I need you to get dressed." Predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements...where you don't use a flyswatter for a missle hit...or vice versa.

Realistic choices you make long before the moment arrives. Use this event to look back in your childhood and choose appropriate enforcements, write them down, explain them calmly to your H, and then enact them as the event arises.

Clear lines required stated reality and enforcement. This does not prevent him...it is how you live your life, honor your marriage and support your partner by NOT supporting, enabling, owning or erasing reality...his behavior. It removes you judging his essence...into the realm where you judge his actions. Separate these for yourself...and in yourself...your choices are your actions...and they are his.

This is not parenting...it IS partnering. State your truth...

"I know you chose to react instead of act. I know you chose to assume, expect and I understand you were extremely agitated...from anger or resentment or frustration. Sounds like you believe I didn't care about you because I didn't read your mind and stated my own desire to attend my meeting. Is that correct?"

This is no bash, Rinder...it is me telling you that I believe we all fall into old patterns...sneaky old patterns...especially when we are feeling great...connected...rolling along...and when we are most distressed, stressed and scared...the inbetween, seems easy to change our behaviors by maintaing our awareness...the extremes, not so easy.

Forget easy.

Good to know...all part of learning and growing...what you do now, predetermine or not, is your clear-headed choice...takes knowing, owning, writing them down and committing to them...to honor your marriage and your family...and yourself. You're half the marriage.

This was an event...not The Event...you shared your triggers, your feelings and your awareness...not old pattern at all...know how well you're doing, too...not to glide--to know reality. You're getting it. I'm saying, get it more...'cuz you know I do that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA

Thanks you guys!

Dh and I had talked about it prior to yesterday. I had said that I only needed to go once a week, and I'm fine with that. I'm more than happy to accomodate him.

I think that it may be a hard concept for him to understand. For instance, Wed. night, DH came home after he finished his tattoo, and said "THank you for allowing me do get it!" I said "You're welcome, but that sounds like I'm being your parent and I don't want to be your parent. I like to think that we jointly agreed on it!"

SO, I'm working on it...I think that the dymanic of our R has existed for SOOO long that it's hard for him. I feel that the only thing I can do is be the lighthouse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, when I went home for lunch, DH did have the vaccuum out, and the glass on the floor was picked up; however, the glass is still broke in the cabinet and the paper on the floor. I did get the opportunity to take a few pictures after he left. I just emailed it to my work account and will be saving it to a disc.

Frog, on the al-anon meeting there's only two that I'm able to go to due to work...I felt that I was meeting him half way on the subject...

Anyway, DH was loving again...kissed me goodbye before returning to work and was very talkative.

I just think that I have to remind myself that he is not where I am, and that I have to stand strong and be patience.

Oh, when he was here, he even pulled out his excuse from the lawyer's office and handed it to me. I had to ask him if he needed a copy. He said no. I guess he needed to show me proof of where he was.

We'll make it...rough roads build character! LOL

Does he feel like you are meeting him halfway? I am not saying you aren't. You probably are. But his perception of the situation is his reality. He may not think you are right now but with some O & H conversation you may be able to straighten that out.

For years my FWW thought she was meeting me halfway. Now she sees she was a very selfish person that just took. She is trying to change and making great progress but sometimes she slips. Maybe H is slipping a little on the selfish meter here and some O & H about how you feel may change everything.

Good luck and have fun at the wedding.

Frog-

Thanks for that observation...i did ask if he thought that was fair...if I take Tues. and he takes Thurs. I said that I like hanging out with my friends just like he does, and for that one hour, I get to have me time. I didn't get a response, but I've noticed that he's slow to response.

He said that he was "trying" to think, logically last night but said that he felt that I didn't care. I said that I find that he reads into things and that he was the one who told me "it is what it is." Referring to when he use to tell me that I read into things. i left it at that!

I also, find like you that FWH is VERY selfish...and he's so use to me not wanting to go anywhere's by myself...I can't make him see how selfish he is being...

He was talking about the next vehicle that I get...he wants a diesel truck...I'm not driving that...well, he got mad...I said I didn't feel that I got to pick out my present car...I said that I doesn't know what I want but when we get to that point I would like to chose something and jointly agree, not you chose and me going along...mad, he was...

I think that it will just take a lot of hard work...FWH has alot of anger, resentment, and entitlement in his thinking...I'm willing to try but when enough is enough...I'm calling it quits... LMAO...good thing I'm a long ways from that point right now...I plan to reevaluate the situation next Oct.

I feel that we've made progress and I feel that it will continue, but I have to do my part... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi, all, ugh! I really feel worn down right now...I could use a pick me up...debating in my head about going to this wedding...

Not sure what it is, well...part Christmas...bills...

I just feel low.

Good Morning! FWH and I are doing well! Kids are doing great also!

My mother informed me last night that she will be coming down without SD for Chridstams and would really love to see me...she's bring the kids presents...

So, FWH and I talked about it and decided to change our plans, not only for her but for several other reasons.

What I'm having trouble with is the fellings that this gives me? I'm worried and I don't know about what really...just the fact that I'm going to see her...how do I deal with her...

This is the woman who chose her H over her DD...abandonment...HEck, YEAh...she's done it several times to me...

Not, I love her...I'm sure that things will be fine when we're together but these feelings...the anxiety of just having to deal with her and the recent events with SD, which I'm still not over...

FWH is like...THIS is good...she's making an effort...wanting to see the kids...

I'm like yeah...same old, same old! What a wall I feel that I have to create with them! Then, it's a secret about her coming in...I'm not to tell anyone else in the family...oh, what a warm reception she's going to get...I'm looking for fireworks at the Christams Eve party...her family is NOT happy with her...

The only reason she's coming down is because SD told her that her Dad is not looking good...

I'm having so much trouble with this...any advise would be helpful!

Oh, Rinder...

God won't bring you what you can't hold...and you can. Not good or bad...what is...you're going where you have no domain...thinking about reactions...from others...focus on you, your marriage and children...no judgment.

Work on your O&H so you will be authentic, present. Be brave and true...come from love...we don't know when people change...and they won't, won't seem to, if we are not open and aware...does not mean you have to wipe away, forget...means being open and aware...no DJs...no going where you have no domain.

Respectful.

And you are.

Notice your spiral feeling...signals you're where you have no control, no knowledge...and lead yourself back to what it is you're communicating to yourself...about you...re-seat yourself in your own power and limits.

Is this a problem to be solved? Or understood? Clarify first, then contemplate. You have been doing this...this is more of this...practice with presence.

Showing up is the biggest part of life...not fixing, changing, doing, re-doing...showing up.

Things may or may not be fine...either way, YOU'LL be fine.

I'm sure of it.

And for all I went through with my own folks, I can tell you sincerely, I feel like I would give anything to have my mom for Christmas...

LA

Hi, LA...I'm so sorry...I missed your post the other day...

I would like some help with the things that I have chose to do in the past...even recent...I'm not sure that I did not repeat a pattern last night...

Just to let you know the glass has been picked up off the floor, However, the glass is still broke in the cabinet and the papers are still on the floor with the vaccuum cleaner still out...cord unrolled across the floor...

It bothers me but it doesn't bother me that it's still there...I mean this did happen last Thurs...


I believe that I have done this time and time again also...FWH doesn't like me to listen and repeat...I'm using that pschyology on him...I was told not to use it...so, what I have come up with is stating that I'm only trying to get it straight in my head what he is saying and that is the reason for doing it.

I have found that this has been the hardest part for me...listen, repeat, and not refute...


Oh, I can say that this is a HUGE problem within the M...i believe by stating what I said Sunday about him going ride with OP was a great way of showing him that I am trying to stop assuming...what I mean is I'm not trying to teach him but BE the lighthouse. I know of no other way to handle this but by being aware that I am doing it and stating O&H how I noticed that I did and what I did differently.


Well, I honestly didn't think of it this way. Thank you for calling it to my attention. blonde moment I guess. i mean I did take pics and have it documented. I don't think that I was aware that I had choices in this sitch until you brought it to my attention.


Thank you very much...I feel that I am getting it more and more...last night I felt we had a good conversation where he did take ownership with me and then went inside and apologized to L. Practice makes progress...LMAO


I got it...at least I can say that the feeling that I have now...IS no where near as big as I've felt in the past...I would dread making a call to them...

This has been my whole life...fearing dealing with them just b/c...it's better knowing that they can't control me but that they still try too sometimes...

LMAO...Awareness, half the battle... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi, La...I wanted to let you know that I'm trying to figure out what Domantic Violence is and trying to learn what it is and how to apply it so that I can set some boundaries.


Now, if I understood you correctly...I have to state these boundaries to him?

I printed up an article entitled: Domestic violence towards women: Recognize the pattern and seek help

Any other thoughts on this would be helpful...this is the third incident that I can think of: book burning, road rage (not at me), and the glass.

I think that I need to address the issue in a timely manner, once I have gained a better understanding. I have threats documented and we know that FWH likes to intimidate.

I think that I have been in denial about this issue and this is where a lot of my fear stemmed from...I no longer allow him to intimidate me and this could be the reason for the destruction of property now.

During his AO, he tried to put me down and said something about me letting F for my meeting.

I'm not interested in getting him arrested, right now, if I have too later, I'm preparing myself for that...I need time to accept the facts for myself. I am interested in making some O&H statements about the situation and how I will protect myself and the kids.

I have NOT been ready to do that before...to lay down those boundaries, but I'm preparing the way...

Thank you once again for calling that to my attention because I don't think I was prepared in the past to hear what others were saying to me. You have heard my speak of my fear with FWH. After having read a little on the topic I understand that it's not about the anger that it's about control.

Still smiling! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<a href="www.mayoclinic.com/health/domestic-violence/wo00044" target="_blank">Domestic violence toward women: Recognize the pattern and seek help</a>

Rin,

When there is property damage in a fit of rage...there is child endangerment...intimidation...spouse endangerment. Throwing things puts rage into objects...disowns...if glass from impact were to fly and strike you...or the object itself...it would be out of his hands.

So are fists when a person makes another hit them...I wanted you to see how this impedes ownership, this belief, this acceptance...and escalation is escalating permissions.

I'm glad you are researching it. Documentation is good for future boundary enforcements for the safety of yourself and your family. I don't believe you can file a police report in retrospect. I pray you won't ever have to...and yes, once you have your predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements in place...you share them with him.

There is no "I didn't know" involved here, Rin. He knew what he did was wrong, violated marital and family boundaries. He knew it was destructive and irresponsible. Please know this. Stating isn't to say, "I told you!" It's to share what you will do if he chooses to...steps to secure.

Logical consequences.

Doesn't take interest to call the police...takes a strong belief that these consequences benefit everyone. This wouldn't be you manipulating through the system...this would be you drawing clear lines of safe behavior in respect to yourself, your marriage and your family. Not reactive. Predetermined. Delineated.

Clear.

Which is what you wrote above...what it sounded like to me.

I don't believe you were in denial...I believe from your FOO you learned not to be shocked, avoid trouble and smooth over, get past, move on...and what I see you as doing now is being...knowing reality and steeping in it. Allow yourself to see humans for higher conduct, know the difference between natural consequences and trouble, stand on uneven ground and still stand...be present.

The more we know what WE will do, the less we fear what others do...the less we feel intimidated.

I didn't understand what you meant when you said during his AO, you believed he was trying to put you down and the part about your son, F.

Thank you for choosing to reach for awareness and knowledge in reaction to my perspective that this is domestic violence. I see you reaching for that more and more and freeing yourself from judgment first.

{{{Rinderwoman}}}

LA

Good morning, LA...everyone! Merry Christmas. I hope that everyone has a pleasant day.


This is sooo very true...you nailed it! Avoid trouble...I can remember walking into the house as a child an scanning the coffeetable for beer cans. If there were a few on the table, I felt like I was in trouble so I would go to my room and stay there. I figured out of sight, out of mind. I was constantly told what I thought and what I did. I won't even do whatever it was but it SD's eyes I did and I was just lying. So, I ended up taking whatever the punishment was. I learned to take and take and take and I'm finished taking what's not mine.


When FWH was working nights I would leave F at the house for the hour and then pick him up to go to FWH's work to bring him his lunch. FWH tried to say something about me leaving him for that time when he was mad. Now, FWH doesn't have a problem with it. We've even left him at the house to go to the hardware store and never longer than an hour.

I called Social Services to check on latch-key kids and come to find out in our state, not that I would but there's no age requirement for them to stay alone. That's crazy. Napoleanic law, go figure!

FWH also tired to say after I told him that I wasn't cleaning that up, that I don't clean and look at the house. Now, my house is clean...I do the best that I can with the time that I have. I knew that he was just trying to pull me in and I told him that I was not going to let him made me mad. The reason why I added this is because as I understand it this would be emotional abuse.

I'm not sure if it's because I have avoided conflict for so long or this is something new but since I have started standing up for myself and speaking up FWH has started this. Let's see: He's punched a wall, thrown a coke bottle in my direction as I was walking through the room, tried to stop me from leaving the house, tried tracking me down when I have left for the night, burned my books, and now broke the glass.

I think that I need to do something about this. As a MOF, I have been wondering if I can continue in a R with this in my life and how to I go about removing assumptions and expectations. I understand that I can only do it with self, that I can't do anything about it with him.

Last night before I went to my meeting I said "You could have gone to jail for breaking the glass and burning my books. It's considered Domestic Violence."

He asked how I found that out. I said that it had been on my mind for a while and I looked it up on the internet because I wasn't sure what it was. He seems to me to be irritated with this information from the tone of his voice. I didn't say anymore about it and went to my meeting.

FWH is sick and went to the Dr. yesterday. He knows that I won't answer my phone during my meeting, so shortly after, I had to pick up his meds., and he called to ask for a favor.

Later, I asked if he had taken a shower and he said yes. So, I went jump in. When I came out, FWH was in bed and he had turned the TV off. I thought to myself, "Well, I guess it's a good thing I didn't want to watch TV." I also felt like I couldn't blow dry my hair b/c he was in bed. When I crawled into bed I heard him turn over, he lays on his back when he wants SF. Well, I didn't know if he was sleeping or not b/c it was over an hour from the time he went to bed.

Well, maybe five minutes later, he turns over very roughly and throws the covers up over him. Now, I can tell you want that was suppose to mean but that would be a DJ on my part, just like what it means when he lays on his back is.

It's so frustrating, and that's what last nights meeting was on...I can't read his mind, but he expects me too...I can even say...I can't read your mind, but he STILL expects me to know what he wants or thinks.

Thing is the more I focus on reality...the more questions I have about staying in this M...sure we have accomplished ALOT for our age, but I'm willing to give all of that up not to have to deal with this mental exhaustion. I plan to reevaluate things this coming October, and then go from there.

So, thank you for allowing me to share with you. I really would appreciate your POV or anyone else for that matter. This is where I am right now. I'm just frustrated...not really in a bad place...and I feel very clearheaded. Centered...like I know what I need to do; however, I don't know how to get there. Tools...of course...this to shall pass! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />