It's funny that you said what you said, I came to the conclusion that if you give a dog enough rope that it will hang itself...

I need to let go of the store...what will be will be regardless of what I do...

perhaps if I give my part of the trust it will make things easier...then see what happens...You're right I do know that I have options now...I know what a deal breaker is...

And if that's the case, then he didn't deserve me in the first place...

You refused to lie to your H's boss, so now he's punishing you (well, trying to punish you, remember what LA says, that you don't have to FEEL PUNISHED) by refusing to tell you where he is or who he's with, making threats, etc?

Ugh!! That's crazy!

I agree with Frog ... if you will always have to worry, then there's something wrong. And it's frustrating to me that your H uses that as ammunition against you. Do what I want or I will make you worry.

Your H said he was stressed, do you think you could get him to consider MC now? As a way to help relieve the stress?

It seems like he's seeing the precautions that will protect the M as you controlling him, instead of as his way to show that he's taking care of you and the M. I don't think you'll ever be able to get that across to him, but I thnk an MC could.

And maybe a male MC could get the concept across best. I am STUNNED at some of the things I hear coming out of my H's mouth after he talks to Steve. Stuff I've been trying to say for years and years but it never made any sense to him until SH said it.

Plus, then you get to be the loving, fun, easy one, and the MC is the one having to drill changes into his head.

Just a thought.

-AmI.

Rin,

It is not about giving him enough rope. It is about respect!!!!!

Not just of you but of the M, the R the family even himself.

Really what self respecting man needs to think that way. I respect myself enough not to need those things. To act that way.

Heck one of the reasons I haven't strayed is because of the respect I have for myself!!!!

So now he realizes he has a weakness or has made a mistake like that before and he continues down the same road.

That is like an alcoholic that quits and keeps hanging out with the same group and going to clubs and bars. Sooner or later being in that environment will make it much easier to slip up.

You can't avoid all contact but he should be aware he may be putting himself in the same postition.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

The fact he continues to put himself in the same sitch's gives you a reason to worry. He needs to stop putting himself there.

Only my opinion. Maybe he needs to get a little more self respect.

Rin,

I second what Frog is saying about your H and straying. He is putting himself into these situations, and the only person it is going to hurt is him, in the end. Please remember that you do not need to put up with boundary skirting; after all, they are your boundaries. Enforcing them is the hard part, because that means that you may have to do something that you would rather avoid.

The reason that I went into Plan B was because my WH, during a time when I believed he wanted to try and begin again, he told me that he was, yet again, interested in another woman. That was a deal breaker. I didn't want to do Plan B, I had to. I could no longer take crumbs and HUGE amounts of disrespect, as my self respect was rebuilding. Now, when I'm low, and you guys here tell me to buck up, because I wouldn't want a man like that anyway; I know you are right. I may have to suffer a bit of sadness here and there, but I feel stronger everyday.

Let his 'stuff' be his; you are responsible for you, and children who aren't ready for that full responsiblity, but not a grown man.

I will tell you what Frog, Lousygolfer, and other men have said to me here, you deserve someone who loves you, considers you, and treats you with the respect you deserve. You are NO different than me, Rin...

Love you girl; I really do.

Hi, guys! Thanks for thinking about me and posting. I hear what you are saying...

I just wanted everyone to know that things are okay...I haven't been feeling to social since yesterday...

Just trying to keep myself occupied...reading a little on inner child...I know I have to reparent...

I don't know! Hope you guys have a good day...

Rin,

Head up. You can still have a good day. Figure out how and have it. That is an order.

Put down the inner child book and pick up the comics.

I think what's bothering me today it I'm wondering about my connection with DH and other people for that matter.

I crawled into bed last night and he rolled onto his back...so instead of assuming...I asked...When you lay on your back does that mean you want SF?

His reply was: "I always want SF, but not always, why?"

I said b/c I have felt pressured into having SF when you are laying on your back.

Nothing more was said, but I want the extra mile an began the process...

At the end, he asked what I was thinking and I said that I don't feel like I know what gets him worked up.

Bad time to be thinking about it, but during SF, I was thinking that I'm fearful to start SF sometimes b/c I don't know if what I'm doing is working him up...

So, nine times out of ten for me it feels like I'm just having SF...I want more of the connection...but if I can only do something about me...

DH asked in the mid of SF, what can I do to get more of than? I said "I don't know!" So, I started thinking about that...

Come to think about it, I think to much...either about other things or what I'm doing at the time...

So, I guess I'm impeding the relaxation process for myself...other times it's like my feelings aren't into it...

Then, I was thinking after SF about what DH said and that is his truth...but in my eyes, it's not b/c I feel like when I want it I get rejected...saying not right now...then, between that time and the time we go to be...something happens and I'm even more emotional detached...

So, I know that I have a hard time feelings my emotions, at least figuriung them out...what I said last night was a big deal for me...I actually surprised myself...

That's what got me started on the inner child stuff b/c I want to know how to create intimacy and feel it. Is it something I already have and just am not aware? I really would like to feel closer to people...

So, needless to say, I'm at a lose with this...

I've been reading this thread for a long time, with all the ups and downs.

I greatly admire you. You are looking at your issues while working on the marriage.

I think that you are doing just fine. Examine everything, and get this fixed, once and for all.

OK Rin,

In many cases and I don't want to speak for ALL men or ALL women SF fills very different needs for men and women.

One of our major issues for a while was SF. I wanted it because I wanted SF. No underlying need for closeness or any of that. I wanted SF.

The FWW had a need for closeness, bonding, togehterness during SF.

When we were in rough spots I still wanted SF as a primal thing she didn't because she didn't like me.

She says we could be in a screaming match and I could still want to have SF while we finished it and she is probably right.

So my point is that for men and women SF may fill different needs.

Ok so now the good thing about being a woman is that there is a definitive way to see if you are working him up.

Men do not fake the big O and there are outwardly physical signs of arousal.

If you see one of these signs chances are you are. If it stays that way chances are you are doing something right.

There are always other ways to enhance it but there you go.

For me as a man the one thing I really like is my FWW initiating the SF. Not by saying hey you wanna but by maybe dressing up a little or crawling under the blanket naked.

Just her starting it in a non verbal way is nice.

Hi Rin -


I don't think you'll be able to get the connection with DH until he's willing to safeguard your marriage.

MP has a high need for SF (and physical affection). It's something that she has not always been entirely satisfied with me in our marriage.

The problem for me, currently, is that I don't feel she's taking solid steps to protect our marriage. That negatively impacts my ability to meet her needs. I told her the other night that I was not willing to continue to live in a situation where I felt that I had to compete with other men for what, in the eyes of God and man, was legally mine. Work for, pursue, and improve, yes. But compete with other men? No.

After a year of this, I have come to the conclusion that just as the WS needs to hit rock-bottom before they can work on the marriage, the BS usually has their own rock-bottom to hit before they will willingly take a stand - and take action to back up that stand.

It took me a year. The stand I chose to take may cost me my marriage, but it will preserve my self-respect, dignity and value.

IMO, your H needs to decide for or against your marriage. Currently, he is deciding against by default. If he decides for, then he needs to demonstrate that by consistent actions.

Part of the problem (again, IMO) with boundary enforcement is that many times a BS will begin to enforce their boundaries, and see a positive change in their WS, and will then back off, thinking that the WS "gets it".

The risk the BS runs there is that the WS will continually offer them crumbs, without truly committing to the marriage. Just enough to get the BS to back off for a bit. Eventually, the BS is left with 2 choices - accept the way things are, or end it.

Having been in shoes similar to you, I have an idea of what you're going through. You have done admirably - you have learned and grown a tremendous amount.

You began to seek a divorce last year, and your H recommitted. He appears to not be keeping that commitment.

The power is yours. Telling you that he may choose to seek out OP to get the things he want is manipulation, plain and simple. MP tried that with me back in March. We were discussing the possibility of a separation (her wish, not mine). The topic of SF during a separation came up, and she told me that it would be in my interest to meet her need, lest she find someone else to do it. I told her that was manipulation, plain and simple, and I didn't play that game anymore.

Make it clear to your H - it's either you, or it's not you. He cannot have his cake and eat it to.

As I told myself back in December - go hard, or go home. It's very scary and sad to contemplate ending a relationship with someone that you genuinely care about - but how much of your self-respect and self-value do you want sacrifice for the sake of being married to your H as he curently is?

You can do this - whatever you choose to do, you can do this. We know that, and we will be here to support you in it.

DUH DA DUH... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I got that...I'm sorry I didn't explain myself as well as I should have...

DH has expressed a need for every once in a while to feel something more than just getting to the act. I think I remember him saying something about wanting to feel like a king.

I am not a mind reader nor should I have to be. I do not believe you are on nor should you be either.

So as a big boy if I want something from my FWW I ask her for it, if she says no then it is no.

I know there are things he has asked for and you said no and if that is what he is talking about he has problems. Keeping it real.

Heck if he persists down that road just tell him you want to do it to him first then he can you. Chances are he will change his tune.

I digress. If he wants to be treated like a "King" ask him what that entails. If you are willing then great. Every once in a while do that for him if you are inclined and your LB has enough credits in it.

I don't know I see you down the same path as My FWW. When things weren't good between us she was just there.

Anyway. He needs to stop putting everything in your court.

This is honestly not about him this time...

I do understand what you are saying frog and HB...I do agree and it would be really great if he manned up but this is about my fear of intimacy really...not just with him but with others...

I really viewed intimacy as SF until recent...I felt that if you had an intimate R it was with the one you were with...that you didn't have intimate R with OP...

As far as DH, there's been no pressure in a while...like hehasn't made any comments like getting if from somewhere else since April, the night of his party and this was hours b/f D-day...

I do have to say that I was a little nervous last night about the ASF but he stayed clear...I do have to realize that I am dealing with a new person just as I ama new person...

All in all, I have had a tendency to be standoffish with OP...so I'm trying to look at the bigger picture...

A little background, my FOO was not really affectionate...I know that I didn't have great role models...my mom was to busy reading her romanance novels to play games with me and SD was passed out, watching TV or doing whatever...

I really didn't want to be around him anyway b/c of the S abuse which ended at an early age, but a few things still remained...

I probably still fault my mom for saying she would leave him and didn't...

Even with my F, SM, H-sister, and H-brother, I'm not close too. So, I'm questioning all of these areas...

Would my R with MBers here be intimate?

Oh, thanks believer...I reagrd you with high respect...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is the N enjoying the bike? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Rin -


Easy to substitue sex for intimacy - I think it's a very common issue, epecially in our culture.

You can have an intimate relationship with people without having sex. God wants an intimate 1-on-1 with all of His creation, and you don't see Him asking for sex, do you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anytime you share your thoughts or feelings - your true self - you are establishing intimacy.

Do you not view your relationship with your kids as an intimate one? It is, just not sexual.

Sex is a form of intimacy - the highest form, yes, but still a form. Intimacy can be sex, but it can be many other things as well.

That is why Harley is so adamant about letting OP (especially opposite sex) meet your ENs - it opens the door for intimacy, and through intimacy, sex, and through sex, a violation of your vows to your spouse.


That's good to know. It's a start at least. Now he needs to take steps to reassure you that it won't be a problem. It'd be like me telling MP that I had no interest in voyeurism, but not acknowledging the damage it did to her, myself and our marriage, and still wanting it inside but simply not sharing it with her or pressuring her.


Understandable - you've been betrayed and greatly wounded. Many times, from the sounds of it.

I know I tend to be stand-offish in person simply because I don't trust anybody anymore. I'm also very, very uncomfortable engaging in any conversation with women, simply because I don't want to leave myself open to temptation. I had a lady at the store a few weeks back talking to me about my choice of beverage (a certain Root Beer), and even that I was like "Why are you talking to me? Can't you see my ring?"

It will take time, I think, for you to open up to other people, especially if that's not your nature. You have to define what you will and will not share with others, and learn to operate from that.


We are all, to one degree or another, products of our upbringing. Doesn't mean you can't change - and you're taking great steps in identifying what has played a role in making you who you are. Now you're trying to define who you are independent of the environment you were raised in. Not an easy job, but certainly doable.


It could be. The better question, IMO, would be is your relationship with MBers here be inappropriate? If you feel that it is, then you would need to establish boundaries for yourself.

It is often easier to share yourself with someone in an anonymous area than face to face. Hence the danger of the internet (one of several).

I think you're on the right track. We are wired to crave intimacy. Just keep forefront in your mind that intimacy does not always mean sex.

There's risk in sharing yourself. The greatest risk is doing so with your H, because he's positioned to cause you the greatest hurt. He's also positioned to offer you the greatest rewards for sharing yourself.

It's not easy to do this. Based on what I know of your history, it's already difficult because of your FOO issues. Now it's made even more difficult because of your husband's affair.

Nobody says you have to jump back into a full blown 100% intimate relationship with your husband (sex or otherwise). But to get what you want, you will have to begin the process.

You are who you are. No worse or better than anybody else. Remember LA's catch-phrase - separate but equal. Be true to yourself, and I think you will find intimacy will become second-nature to you.

HB, my man... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


AH! Yes, I have done this...I'm positive that's why I equate sex with intimacy...


I never thought about it before but yes...I have even shared my history with them, letting them know that certain things are not okay...MHO, I have a better R with them than DH...and no, it's not sexual...

So, in essence I can say substitute R and Intimacy?


I don't think so...I don't feel that I talk about inappropriate things...I remember when I was a newbie, topic got a little graphic once <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but someone said something about it...so that helped me know the boundaries...

I've had a hard lesson learning what to share and what not to share in life with OP...on top of FOO and H's A, I've had two other betrayals in my life...I use to share freely...blind trust for everyone at one point...didn't know any better...


Now, I can say that you have to earn my trust before I share certain things...

Thank you for acknowledging that...it means a great deal to me...

I think it's just the word intimacy that's was hanging me up...

I am grateful for the encouragement... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good Morning...

Things have been pretty good for the most part...I mean FWH and I are still choicing to be together each day...

I were to my meeting last night and came home in a quiet mood...I had shared some of the things that I shared on the boards...thing is it didn't feel any easier and I was a little bump but I was good with it...

Well, when I got home, we all were grab something to eat...well, DH was in a bad mood all day...just didn't want to be at work, didn't want anyone to bother him...but said he didn't know why he felt like that...

SO, he started talking about if something doesn't change soon, he's going to take a few days off and he hopes that it's warmer so he can ride his bike...I made a face...he said he knew what that meant and that was the end of the conversation...

I told him I get it, I understand that you are tired and stress, and that you want things to change. I hear you. (I'm tired of hearing him say the same thing.) I said if you're tired of something then change, you can't change anything but yourself. There's nothing that you can do about work, they are not going to change for you.

Well, he didn't say much and I told him that I didn't talk to him b/c he didn't talk to me...said I needed to get rid of the scoreboard but I was still working on it. I just really put myself out there and didn't care what he did.

DH was really quiet. After we got home and the boys were on the way to bed, he said that he felt that I was trying to analyze everything that came out of his mouth. I said so you think I'm trying to read into everything you say. He said no. I said I thought that's what I just hear you say.
He said that he couldn't really explain it, and it sounded to me like projection.

He also said that he didn't have a clue who I am. I said I'm the person that tries every day to give you and I a blank slate. To look at you as a new person, b/c that helps me focuson today and not the past. I said that when I focus on the past, I have a tendency to change it around to fit what I'm thinking at that moment...

I said some other stuff...he was just quiet...I hear that he's uncomfortable, but I don't hear with me...I hear that it's with himself...

I don't know...I posted now and have to cut it short b/c I couldn't log in yesterday...I kept being sent to the list of forums...weird...I'll try to get back later...

Rin,

That login thingy happens to me a lot too...I dunno...

I just wanted to stop by and say hey there! It sounds, as of late, that your H has many things to work on himself, and, as anybody here knows, we all would much rather point the finger elsewhere and avoid our inner conflicts.

You have people here to question your every move, and guide you when asked to; your WH is a bit farther behind; Has it ever been suggested that he come here with his thoughts. I wouldn't normally recommend it for a while, as it can sabotage your own soundboard. Meh, I'm really just talking here, not able to think as clearly as usual; I'll let others chime in...

Thanks SL! I really apreicate you post! Yesterday really got on my nerves...LOL...it's really bad when all you can do is read and not post.

I just finished working on the problem...I ended up having to delete my cookies and then try to login...it worked and here I am! LOL

I agree with you...I think that DH has a lot to work on also...last night he tried to blame me for leaving the door open to the garage...ythe room I remodeled...I quietly listened and then turned to F and asked if the door was closed when he went in there...I knew F was the last one in there...

F said yes, so I asked him to remember in the future to close the door back...he said okay...when we got to the place to eat, DH said that he wasn't trying to be an A$$ho)e but that he didn't want anything to get stole...

I said that was understandable but I wish that he would remember that I'm not the only one who goes in there...

I was talking to my sponsor sometime back and she was saying that her DH were through something silimar...she was changing and it's almost like they are worried that if we change then we won't want to be with them and trade them in...

I'm trying to be understanding and let him work on his stuff...

I even told him last night that I'm at the point that I am admitting when I'm wrong...I said that I remember when he use to tell me that I was controlling, wanted things my own way, etc.

I said that I could let him know what I see but even if I told him he wouldn't believe me but I've been there...I said you use to tell me that I was this and I was that and I thought to myself that you didn't know what you were talking about. So, I said that he was going to have to figure that out on his own. He's the only person that can do anything about it.

I mentioned that I hadn't been stressed out or had any anxiety in a long time, he said that he was happy for me.

To me he just looks and sounds so miserable...

Frog- this morning I was thinking about what you said Friday about respecting himself...

I don't think that he respects himself...just my thinking but both of us, in my eyes, didn't have good boundaries...we use would we have done some of the things that we have...I KNOW that I didn't have good boundaries, if any, and I KNOW what I was looking for...

DH hasn't gotten to that point...I really can only hope that something I say or do for that matter has an impact on him...

In addition to that, I see what you are saying about not putting himself into sitchs like he has in the past...I understand not putting my thumb on him sort to speak...that's alot of energy on my part that could be spent somewhere else that's needed...

I have to trust that he knows the consequences of his actions should something like that happen again...

I starting to see how I have set myself up time and time again for betrayal and I need to change that...

I will not tolerate another A in my M...

During our conversation, I told DH that I refuse to bound off each other anymore...I'm not going to take on his bad mood as I have in the past...if I'm wrong and realize it, I'll admit it...like I did for my tone of voice the night before...

I said that he didn't desire that...

Well, if you can't tell I said alot and DH didn't...I'm use to it now...

We're also not getting our 15 hours of UA...I see that he uses OP not to...I've mentioned this pre-A, and DH admitted that I was probably right...

From my POV, he just can't handle it...the way I see it, I'm doing the best that I can right now...I can't do anything more that than...he's going to have to deal with whatever he's got...

I want my M to work but if it doesn't than that's the way it has to be...I'm okay with that...

No, SL, I've wanted him to come here...it's not "his thing," just like MC...I'm just not going to hold his hand b/c I know that he can do something about his sitch instead of doing the poor me thing...

That might sound mean...I know that sometimes it takes people longer to deal with a sitch than others but I think there needs to be some tough love here...

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...I'd like to teach him the Serenity Prayer...I think he's really miserable about things that he can't change...

Well, thank you all for your time this morning...it means a great deal to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, I remembered exactly what DH said. He said that he felt I was trying to figure him out all the time and that he couldn't really explain it.

I just see him in so much turmoil...and I feel with him being so stubborn about IC, MC, and here...SL, you're right, it will take a lot longer time for him to come to terms with some of this stuff...

I'm open for any ideas, comments, or anything...

He also said there are days that he doesn't even want to come home...I said I use to be able to relate to that but I can't now...I said that I can't truely understand what he's dealing with, but it would be nice to try...

Someone in the meeting last night said something about how the alcoholic keeps repeating themselves...telling the same story over and over again...I would like to have a better understanding of what was said...

We lucked out on the ice and snow here... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />