I could use some comforting...

I wanted to ask WH last night but feared that it would led to SF and I don't want him to get the idea that things are alright...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I could really use a shoulder to lean on today...that feeling guilty about letting him cook got me...

Now, I just feel weak...

Rin,

I would say you are still enmeshed in this.

I know that you love the WH that is evident.

I am not seeing a CA as in conflict avoider. I am seeing a CA meaning CONSEQUENCE AVOIDER. Big difference.

Let him cook and clean. If he keeps up with it he will need to learn to do it anyway.

Listen. Sooner or later one of you needs to budge. He needs to decide you are the only women for him and he wants to remain faithful or You have to decide it is ok for your H to date others.

Dealing with inappropriate "friendships" until he decides he has enough.

I support you if that is your decesion.

You know my FWW got a lot of credit in our present life for our past but she eventually burned through all of that and some.

I wish you the best. You have to decide where you want to be and the best way to get there.

One thing I would warn though is there may be a point of no return. Meaning he does so much damage he will never be able to repair it no matter how perfect he becomes.

((((((Rin))))))

I have a shoulder you can cry on or hold onto what ever you need.

I don't have to much to say about WH letter it seems to me that his taker is front and center. And with everything you have said in the few days I think your taker is coming out to. Someones taker needs to be put away and since you are the bigger person at your very big 4'11 (LOL) you might have to do that.

I'm not saying be a dormat. Just saying you have boundries he knows what they are. You don't need your taker out to get the point across.

You are a blessing and he is lucking to have you.

well, you both got that right...

I'm not willing to put my defenses down right now...I feel like that's the only protection I have...

I don't want to get to close to him...I haven't even told him thank you for the things that he's done...

I just can't do it...okay, I'm not willing to do it...

"I'm not willing to put my defenses down right now..."

AMEN to that statement My wall is so high that sometimes I don't know who's on the over side WH or H.

Just remember to breath and pray.

I've stopped being mean but I just can't bring myself to want to connect with him...

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one in that boat!

I guess I should think about saying that...

Rinder-

How is the program going for you? One thing I learned is to stop trying to over analyize thing about the M and A. Your situation is what it is, and concentrating on yourself ONLY should be of big benefit to you. You need to let go spiritually, and slowly things will fall into place without you needing to force it.

When we do this, we seem to be a lot stronger and focused mentally. To me, it sounds like he will come around when in NC with the OP. Right now all I see is him giving you justifications and placing his opinion of your view of him as the bad guy in the situation....FOGGY speakin'!

Hang tough!

(((((((((((((((RIN)))))))))))))))))))

The program is doing wonders for me...i would actually like to attend more meetings...my S recommended it to me after Friday's thing with WH...

Yes, there's been C beginning Christmas day and last so far was the 16th, 11th, 10th...(actual calls)once each day about 2 minutes per day...then it skips to TMs the 3rd, 1st, and 25th...He started it Christmas day...

You're right but I've been fighting NC for 10 months now...

I'm very willing to hear me from you...

I'm really using my program to deal with my sitch...I'm just not sure anymore...

Rin you knew this would be a rollercoaster ride when you decided for recovery and not D.

Have you told him what C does to you?

Unfortunately, yes he knows...

I was just thinking about that: the letter, the number change...

What do you do with an addict? HMMM...

Rin, are you really 4'11"?

One thing...if you like what you are getting, keep doing what you're doing. If not, do something different. I'd stop fighting it for now, work the steps and your OWN situation will get better guaranteed.

Serenity to accept the things I can not change (WH)
Courage to change the things I can (You)
Wisdom to know the difference.

Rin,

Your WH is foggy...evidenced by his letter.

Let's go for clarity, not refuting, condemning or agreeing with...

"First let me say I do love you! I just am not happy with this whole [email]d@mn[/email] sitch"

No clarity there...what is not happy about? Who? What? Where? Why? Seriously...this says nothing.

"yes I may be a big part of the blame."

Who said anything about blame? He chose to have the A and to continue the A through several false NC promises. That's fact, not opinion. Not blame. His choices. Each time. Period.

"Rinder, I have a really hard time sating what's going on in my head, therefore, they usually don't come out until I get mad or am backed into a corner."

Good to know.

"Rinder, all I want to do is run right now, no, not to someone else but away from everything."

To someone else or not...away from the marriage is away from the marriage.

"You are trying to change my whole world, our whole world."

Huge DJ here...He believes you are trying to change him, the marriage...routines and habits. Permissions. You have only changed yours.

"I feel like you are running or at the very least trying to hide the person you are."

His focus is lost on you...no wonder he can't state or know his own stuff. Notice this. Don't be fooled with the false "I feel like"...all about you, not his stuff.

"Right now, I noticed that you don't like anything we use to do."

Anything doesn't specify...it's a DJ...an opinion stated as fact. It's not. There are some things you like and don't like now...same and different...that's adult reality. Get seated in it, Rin...he's again in your stuff, not his.

"I am truely sorry for hurting you."

Here is the critical part...the fantasy. "I am truly sorry for hurting you" is past tense. He continues. Ask him for The Truth..."Please state that as you are truly sorry for continuing to choose to hurt me, the marriage and your family. That's reality. Not past tense."

Delineate the issue...this is current behavior...conscious choices he's making...whether he says they are or not.

"I promise it is not on purpose or anything like that."

On purpose is a child's phrase for intent...he did it by choice. He's an adult. Ask for clarification. How else can you continue an A through contact by accident? It's choice. I want you to know this...not him.

"I do good for a while and then I have dreams, can't sleep, and she is on my mind and I have to find out why."

Here's where the FOG is VAST...if you want to find out why...you look inside. Not contact OP. If you want to distract from finding out what is SOLELY in your control, you don't contact OP...you choose different thoughts...you know how to do it, Rin...and you look behind your thoughts, to your feelings, tracing them to your beliefs...you face yourself with both eyes...he's foggy askance...and lying to himself and to you here. Don't buy it, Rin.

"I really wanted to tell you but I know what it would lead to." Sorry Rinder.

This is P/A behavior...I didn't choose to share with you because of how you react when I do...cuts you off at the knees, doesn't it? Fog does, too. Reality is: He didn't choose to share. Period. That's reality. Not in your control...and a BIG FAT DJ.

No wonder he feels controlled, like you're trying to change him...back him into a corner...He's doing that to himself, constantly, internally...because everyone else makes him...he is powerless.

"You have said a few times that you no longer keep score. Rinder, on the phone today you gave several instances where you still do."

You define what scorekeeping looks like to you...and understand what it means to him. Contact is not scorekeeping. It's an affair...we track the molecules of an affair. Recovery, we do not scorekeep, measure progress, etc...and in real Recovery, there is not contact, no affair.

"you said that you don't understand me, I don't think you want to Rinder."

Listen and repeat back to this letter, Rin...for your own integrity...not response-based...because this is critical to repeat back, "I hear you do not feel understood nor that people want to understand who you really are, is that correct?"

"I like who I am and do alot of other people."

Others addressed this. Pure fog. Blather. I just backed out, "I hear you saying you like having an affair, choosing to continue your affair and do not want to be married if that means monogamy, is that correct?"

"I'm sorry that I don't fit your dream guy mold."

This is plain verbal abuse...call him on it.

"I am who I am and I am not ready to change."

This is gospel, Rin. He is not ready to be faithful, trustworthy, or married. He is not ready to protect the boundaries of marriage...he doesn't believe in them. Please repeat that back verbatim.

Know this, Rin. This is what kicks your guts...why you will have repeat contact again and again...he is not ready to be a husband or father who protects his family from outsiders. I don't think he can tell the difference between outsiders and insiders...because he's unwilling...not unable.

"I know there are somethings that I am forgetting but I will let you know when I think about them."

He says he won't tell you, then he says he'll tell you--can't share with you, then he tells you he can...

He's so deep in self-deceit, Rin. Don't go there. Don't be reactive to the lies, the projection and the manipulation you are smelling like rotten eggs...stay calm, put on your hopper, your gas mask, and get to work.

"Rinder, I'm not trying to be mean or anything."

See the fog? His INTENT isn't to be mean, just verbally abusive. That's his choice. See how we self-manipulate by believing our desire to not hurt discounts how we hurt when we lie to ourselves?

"I am just trying to be me and not loose who I am while you are on your quest to find someone you think you lost."

Please don't take this abuse...he is telling you what you're doing and why...hand it back. He is solely in control of himself...he cannot lose himself...you know that. Hold onto that, please.

I read your posts and see you looking at what you like, enjoy...what isn't so awful...and it's awful, Rin. It is...is a WS.

You've exposed, sought counseling, have worked and are working on your personal stuff...you've done Plan A...gotten help in ownership (not blame), have learned and are continuing to learn a lot...

Now's the time to KNOW he knows...you aren't his fixer, rescuer or salvation. No matter how much he shows he loves you in his language...he's attacking your marriage and your self through his abuse.

Up to you to enforce a boundary around it. Do what it takes.

Respect him. Do not buy into his fogspeak nor abuse.

"I wrote the letter off the first time I read it and told him that it was a bunch of BS."

So you disrespect and abuse back?

"I reread it last night before I decided to open my mouth."

You don't know he's depressed...you aren't medically trained to diagnose. You perceive he's depressed. He's in charge of getting help for himself and his marriage...his family. That's up to him, Rin. Not in your control. You can share your perception...what you believe...don't go into his stuff...it's dangerous.

"I know that he's stressed out at work and unlike myself he has no support system. No one to talk to about his M problems, work, or anything else." He chooses to not have a support system. Please know the difference. There are MC's he can choose...books he can read...just like you, Rin. He's capable. He is. He's choosing not to...and stress remains...how we process it differs...what we see as stress changes...so we change ourselves.

You have gone into a fog here, Rin...believing you have a good marriage except for WH's abuse...A's are abusive...so is the verbal defining...you know this. His throwing stuff is escalation...the burning...the stuff he does to intentionally cause pain...and it's intentional. Not in your control. Your choice is to not accept the abuse, see it for what it is and take action which holds to your own code.

You're half the marriage...each time YOU didn't speak to share your stuff...you lied, too. Each time you reacted, more in his stuff than your own, you were disrespectful. And each time you got more into his stuff, he got more into yours...not you causing...both of you doing.

Difference is...you promised yourself not to...live up to yourself, Rin.

I've really let myself go from my anger in this post...my fear choked me and I smacked it back...my heart is racing as I type this...and I've been back and forth at this post for two hours...praying for words of aid...this is it. I'm reacting to my big what if...what if my DH kept breaking NC...what would I have done then? I don't know. Didn't happen once he recommitted to the marriage and transferred.

I'm sure my stuff got in this post...and I don't think your marriage is special. I've lived a lot of it...except for the race issue. The rest has been very much alike...the P/A, SA, DJs, AOs, abuse and blame-shifting. Those are all part of your marriage...your old marriage. Up to you if you want a new one...where honesty rules and boundaries are enforced...or not.

In your corner and have taken my gloves off during my tantrum...

LA

And read "Facing Love Addiction" 'cause this may not mean what you think it means...or isn't what you think it is...I don't think...if you think...gosh, I've imploded.

(((((Rin))))))

I'm so sorry to hear about the letter. I'm just going to skip all of the analysis, as I think LA has a better grasp of that, but I will say "What a CROCK"!

You have stated that NC is a boundary for you; I think you need to truly understand what that means to YOU. How to enforce this for YOU. Not against HIM, but for you, for your safety, happiness, well-being, your family. There's so much to this, I know, but you were ready for a D before, and I see signs of your H going wayward again. The only thing that you can do is state that you want your M to be happy and fulfilling for the both of you, and if he is feeling unfulfilled, you would like to discuss it, and try to work together to help eachother through this.

I've heard that RECOVERY is ROUGH business....your in the rough right now. Your H may be reaching out to you. He's stating things about how you don't like to do what you USED to (probably talking about leisure time, companionship), he says that he's had thoughts or dreams about OW, ask him what HE thinks that means, DO NOT ASSUME.

Ask questions, let him know how VAGUE this letter is; most of the statements are non-specific, like he feels something but is either afraid to explain, or CAN'T explain...

Have you guys been talking, or have you been talking AT him lately? Have you been spending time TOGETHER, ALONE...Not just for SF, but for leisure time/activities?

I know how difficult this must be for you...well, I don't, but I have to say, I wish I did...

Rin,

I think I agree with LA. Especially the you think you have a good M except for the...........

I wish you the best and one of the things that might help is just sit back and think to yourself. "If rin was my best friend in the world what advice would I give her?"

Not the DJing type either Like I would kick him to the curb.

You know exactly what is what in your life. You know exactly what he has done and what you have done.

Look in the mirror and give that advice.

Then maybe it will be easier. REmove yourself from it.

Detachment was a wonderful thing for me. That is how I decided a lot of things.

Don't know if that helps but good luck.

((((RIN))))

Thinking about you. How are you doing today?

Hello, I am doing great...I am working my program and am in a good place...

I actually have joined another group online that supports my program...

H actually picked up one of my books for Step two and started reading it...he also read an article on codependency...regardless of what he is doing, I'm doing my stuff...

Now, don't get me wrong...I'm happy that he has done this things...I wish him success...I hope that he finds what he's looking for...whatever that may be...

My main goal is to focus on me...I have come to realize that I have alot of things that need to be worked on, as a result of FOO...

It was recommended when I started my program that I don't make any life changing events for the first year...H is supporting me in my recovery and it's good to know that he is...

I can not at this point in my life go into Plan B...I have actually decided to go in the opposite direction of what would be the correct plan of action recommended here...

I have decided to separate H and I's cell phone bills...as soon as this is done, he will be responsible for paying his and I will be responsible for paying mine...I will live my life and he will live his...with God's help, I hope that our M surrvives...

He will have to handle the consequences of his life and I will have to do the same...I am choicing not to enable him or his behaviors...I will have a life and I am realizing my mistakes and owning them...

I have been controling as a result of my upbrings...I have learned a great deal in the past week...reading on the effects of sexual abuse and adult children of alcoholics...

I have actually been making things worse, IMO but focusing a solution with me and H...

It is my believe that he has to fight his own demons and I thought I was fighting mine...I am choicing to surrender to win...regardless of the outcome "I" will be fine...

Thank you all for your support, thoughts, hugs, and sharing...

(((((((((Group Hug)))))))

I wish you the best Rinder and I certainly am praying for your Recovery but I will not be able to support your point of view. I'm sorry. I was wincing as your read about your decision to separate your cell phone bills and for you and your H to function independently. I thought about not sharing and just going on my way BUT I'll let Dr. Harley speak for me...

Have you read this?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

Uh, if this was AM's post...then where did yours go?

Hmmm.

Ack.

Edited because I'm crazy.

LA

MIMI <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for sharing your POV...I understand and it's okay...

I am glad that you shared with me...

YOU really are a great person and your presence on my threat has meant a great deal to me...just letting you know in case this is your last post to me...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA- This post was for me?