I'm still waiting for an explanation describing how co-existing with an unremorsefull WS is not settling.

I think frog got it.

He called your bluff.

You said..this is my boundary and he strode confidently across it.

You aren't actually willing to really let him go and so...you have absolutely zero leverage.

He can do whatever he wants because when push comes to shove you will back down.

Thank you DF...I will see you soon!

Frog...thank you and should things change and he does start spending time or sleeping with OW, I will change my plan That DAY...but not today...

Thank you all and I wish you well!

Um, I don't get to read this stuff during the day anymore, so I'm a bit flabergasted, but Rin, you do what you have to.

I am from a family of divorce, alcoholism, physical and emotional abuse, as well as drug addiction. I don't recommend that your children be exposed to any of this.

I am not concerned about you, as I know that you have the tools to take care of yourself. Your children do NOT.

Please just shield them from yours and your H's choices as much as possible. DON'T teach them to settle for any disrespect. I was not only affected by my father's decision to be an abusive alcoholic and ignore his family, but I was also affected by my mothers' choices to allow that behavior, from MORE than one mate.

Maybe find a group for your children to attend that teaches them how to deal with a world of abuse...I'm not kidding here, I'm not being coy or trying to induce a negative response. YOU do not matter NEARLY as much as those young lives...You only get one chance...

I support you, I really do, but M is not a place for acceptance of disrespect or allowance of infidelity, no matter what group you prescribe to...

I wish you and your children all the BEST that life has to give...




Rin, I posted this to eav, but I believe that it may be true in your sitch too. Time will tell. You have to choose what is best for you...

Hi Rin -

Wow. I understand that you're doing what you believe is right. I respect your right to make your own choices.

I did want to contribute my 2 cents. Something to think on, if you haven't already.

You are not controlling your husband. Stating what you require for your marriage is not controlling him. You are simply telling him that in order for you to continue in this relationship, you need certain things from him. Like NC with OW.

Now, him saying that if you won't do certain acts of SF then he'll find someone who will - that, in my opinion, is an example of being controlling.

Controlling = Manipulating. Plain and simple.

You indicated that he hadn't slept with OW. Ok...but if he knows you won't "control" him in contacting her, what's to stop him from going to the next level? With her or someone else?

By allowing him to choose to maintain contact with OW, you are leaving the door open to your marriage, IMO. There is no room in a marriage for a third person.

It's not about control. You know you can't control anyone other than yourself. It's about respect. His continued contact with OW is disresepectful to you and to your marriage.

So his inner child is acting up and he's rebelling? When a child rebels, do we relax the boundaries and thereby allow the rebellion to continue?

Contact with OW is not an "annoying habit." An annoying habit is something that bothers you, but is not a threat to your marriage. OW is a threat to your marriage.

I've said this before...in recovery, there are three strands. Your recovery, his recovery and your marital recovery. Separate and distinct, but also entwined to some degree.

You've done an incredible amount of personal growing in the relatively short time you've been here. But if you pull out of marital recovery to focus on your own recovery and growth, where does that leave your marriage?

I guess my main concern is that it sounds like you're willing to settle for less than what you deserve (I'm talking in terms of marriage here, not in terms of your H).

Where do you draw the line, Rin? Boundaries are not effective when they're fluid.

I'm in (I feel) a similiar position to you. Improvement in many areas to one degree or another, but NC is not yet established to my satisifaction. Personally, I could not (and as MP knows now, will not) remain in a situation like that indefinately. I would not be willing to allow my spouse however much time it took to get with the program - especially without any guarantee that they ever will.

I consider you a friend. I do fear that the path you're choosing will not work, but that is your choice to make. I will still help however I can, but please do look out for yourself, your kids, and your marriage.

reminds me so much of spiderslayer's slippery slope .... tolerating "polyamorist lifestyle" under the guise of being openminded and not controlling


she moved her boundaries so many times her marriage sort of floated away
c'est la vie

Pep

Rin,

I hope you are still lurking.

I was thinking about your sitch this weekend. I had a great weekend with the woman I married. Actually today I think she is a better woman then I married.

The reason I can say that is that she has taken my Needs and made a concentrated effort to fill those. She has taken the things that caused us difficulty and sincerely appologized and has made an extreme effort not to do those things.

I do the same.

I thought this weekend as we went out how nice it was. I knew something was different I just couldn't put my finger on it.

What it was is that I don't worry about her flirting anymore. It used to cause me all kinds of grief. Knowing we were going out and preparing myself for that to happen. I didn't worry and it didn't happen.

I had a boundry and I enforced it. I essentially drew a line in the sand saying I am willing to end it over this. Why shouldn't I. She was willing to end it too by doing it.

Rin you continue to move your boundries.

If you can live with that it is ok. To me when I read your post and read it again it sounds to me like you are ok with your H having an EA as long as it doesn't turn into a PA.

I am sorry you have had to go that route.

I honestly now know what happiness is within my M.

I wouldn't be here if I had to give up what I KNEW TO BE RIGHT just to stay with my FWW.

You know him talking to OW is not right. I will leave it at that.

[/quote]Stating what you require for your marriage is not controlling him. You are simply telling him that in order for you to continue in this relationship, you need certain things from him. Like NC with OW.

Now, him saying that if you won't do certain acts of SF then he'll find someone who will - that, in my opinion, is an example of being controlling.

Controlling = Manipulating. Plain and simple.
[/quote]

I see them as pretty much equivalent.
Both are of the form,
"Give me what I want, or I will ...."

techie -


Nope...they're not equivalent. No more than an apple is equivalent to an orange simply because they're both fruits.

Manipulation is an attempt to control somebody. You're telling them what to do, usually by backing it up with a threat that you feel will motivate them to do what you want them to do.

I define a threat as a negative action that a person indicates they are willing to take simply to force someone to do their bidding.

I told my wife that in order for me to continue to contribute to our marriage, I need a plan for establishing and maintaining NC. There was no threat in that. It was a statement of what I am/do need from her to continue to be in a marriage with her.

The choice is hers. I said nothing to her that could, IMO, be taken as manipulation. I left her the ability to make her own choice. If she choose contact over NC, then I will make my choices in light of that. If she chooses NC over contact, then again I will make my choices in light of that.

I am not forcing, nor am I am attempting to force, her to choose what I want.

That is the difference. Threatening to find another person to have sex with because your spouse won't do a certain SF act with you, on the other hand, IS an attempt to force their choice to one of your liking.

The difference, as I have said many, many times, is subtle. But it is there, and it is important.

In a nutshell:

Boundaries are telling people what you will and will not accept within the context of a relationship with them. You are not pressuring them to do anything.

Manipulation is using threats (of whatever nature you deem appropriate) in an attempt to force someone to behave within the context of a relationship.

Boundaries are respectful. You allow the other person to choose.

Manipulation is disrespectful. You attempt to choose for, or force the person to choose according to your desires.

Get it?

Rin,

I think I understand your plan...Plan Acceptance...and I'm not telling you not to...

I'm here to advise that no matter what you decide to do, be honest.

State reality...goes with Acceptance...here is The Truth of choices...not my perception or yours...this is The Truth.

Be clear..."Here is what you did/do, whether it attacks or aids your marriage, and that you accept his choice (stating the choices) and this is your choice." Keep reality dead center at all times, Rin. I think folks here care so much about you, they fear a shutting out...a doormat...fear your pain, increased pain and other stuff...I know I do.

You are loved, respected and accepted, Rin. You are missed.

If highest honesty is your plan...your requirement for yourself and your marriage...and if clarity remains your goal...then I don't care what plan you are in...you're in reality and I can breathe fine with that.

You remain in prayers, mental arms and joyous thoughts, my friend. Please stay in that reality, too.

LA

OH, LA...sweetie, I missed your post...GREAT to KNOW...THank you, sincerely!

That means so much to me...Thanks to everyone for the posts...I can feel the care and concern...

Well, just a little update...

H and I are doing Great! We have really come together...working as a team and he's been calling me three or four times a night while he's at work...we talk about anything that pops up...

L was really sick and Tues. I had to bring him to the emergency room...he's getting better...he got three breathing treatment, a steroid, and an antiboditic shot...Broncitis...F had the same thing...I got a touch but am doing well...

The first parade is tonight and I think that we are all well enough to attend...H will be missing out on all the fun...but we have some finacial goals...two obtained today...one bill completely paid off and we're getting on track...next comes the car and a loan...

Last night H and I were talking and I told him how proud I was of him stepping up to the plate at work...one of his welders quit and he had to fire another for not doing his job...well, the two bosses over him are really backing him up and one told him that this was his time to shine...

MOF, H went to the Harley shop this morning to get some work done on the bike and we must of talked six or seven times...I felt so bad for him because he's got to be at work at 3:30 today...usually he doesn't have to go in until 5:30 but b/c of the parade tonight he's making some extra time...

Oh, I have to mention that we did have a good talk early last week. I told him that I wanted to make my M work and that I am working to get over his A, that I didn't want a D and I didn't think that we would D over his A but thought that it would be over lack of communication or something else...

At one point, I told H that I felt I was the sick one and he was the healthy one to which he said "Do you know I called my mother a few days ago and told her that I wanted to pack all of my stuff, leave the kids, and give everything up." After he said that he said that he didn't expect me to understand what he was saying but just wanted me to know that. He said that his mother told him that he's never quit at anything else in his whole life and asked why he was going to start now.

The night ended well...I didn't want to have SF after the talk but after we were in bed a few minutes, I said I don't really want to have SF...he asked why and I told him and we talked some more...then, next thing you know, there I was startin the whole thing...in a better mood...

We talked about OW, my triggers, the store, and tons of other things...

The "store" is not bothering me as much any more...I believe that I'm starting to separate the store from his A...MOF, H brought me coffee the other morning and before he gave it to me, he poured it into another cup...

Last night, I told him that I appreciated the fact that he did that and he said that I was welcome and talked about knowing where everything is in the store and that it's just easier for him...So, we are talking, and personally I'm feeling great about us...not like before...

I mean to hear the tone of his voice when he talks to me...calls me baby, and Budda (my pet name)...it's sweet music to my ears...what are we on? Week four, I think...I don't know...the time doesn't matter...H's behavior does and this is the longest that he's behaved this way...

Actually, we didn't talk this much during the false recoveries...he hardly ever called unless it was about lunch or something like that, not JUST to talk...

I actually feel like I'm dreaming...LOL...

Well, just wanted to let you all know I'm not living in misery...enjoying life...the kids...MY REAL H...

OH AND THE BALL WAS A BLAST...We had a great time and at the pool party the night before, then watch the Superbowl by ourselves b/c the kids were sick...H loooked so great in his tux...

We rode with HN and her H! HN was the DD and we had the greatest time...I was shocked that HN really didn't drink that's the first time I have ever seen her bypass alcohol...we even all went to breakfast before going home!

Well, I have to run some errands for the business...I'll be back around a little I hope...we're closing early today...

MAn, I'm having a great day! H stopped by my work before heading to his and I saw two people from the past.

A nun who helped me out as a child, my grandmother's friend, and my first employer, she gave me the book "See you at the top" by Zig ziggar before I left for college. I worked at her home doing yard work and then the next summer I worked at her vet. as a vet. asst.

Two great people who had positive influence in my life...that has been happening alot in the past few weeks. I'm having SUCH a GREAT DAY! I hope that you guys do to!

Rin,

You sound good, so much like yourself, so comfortable.

I've been told that true recovery cannot take place until the BS can get past the pain and heal, as well as learn REAL forgiveness. It sounds like you've taken some strides to do this, and that is great.

I'm just starting out. My H has agreed to talk to one of the Harleys (Jennifer C. or Steve H, but not sure which yet). We went to TGI Fridays tonight and had dinner, enjoying our son and some light conversation. We were both smiling and laughing, and I felt comfortable.

I have my triggers, but I've learned to deal with them on my own, and then talk about them later, without all of the emotion of the moment. I've learned to ASK for things that I would LIKE and be clear about boundaries and how they work.

I'm so glad that you had a BALL at the BALL!!

It's also great that you are seeing people who had a positive influence on you; it does a person good to be grounded in that, in the love that they have received.

I'm glad that you two are talking, that's really a good sign. YOU sound more open to recovery.

Before now, I heard you working on yourself, but it didn't sound like you involved WH as much; now, it seems like you are opening up to him, REALLY opening up. It's a difficult thing to be vulnerable to someone who has hurt you so badly, but he cannot come back unless you open the door, first...

Have a great weekend, Rin!!!

HI, SL! Good Morning! I hope that you are well today!

I'm doing good...long weekend...really tired even though I was sleeping for 7:30 last night...of course, I still woke up numberous times...H got home a little after 12 last night...

They shut it down early, something about the drawing for what they were building weren't right...I stayed up with him for about an hour...just chitchatting...telling him about my day at the parade with the boys and a friend of mine...

Then, I headed back to bed...sinus problems...the boys are feeling better...we skipped the parade Sat. night and chose to rent movies...Monster House and Open Season...Open Season was SO funny...the three of us laughed SO much...

Friday's parade was a blast...we caught a good bit of stuff...I save everything and sell it to some friends who ride in the parades the following year...a little extra money...this year it paid for H's tux and my outfit to the ball...

H and I decided it would be in his best interest if he just bought his tux next year...

We're still doing well...and you're right...I don't feel the pain and hurt...I mean it's there but it's not on the frontline...I still have some trust issues but thta will come in time...I'm actually surprised...I'm getting days where I don't think about the A...or like yesterday, talking with my friend...

I was able to talk about it casually...I was explaining to her the changes that I've made and the peace that I feel now...

I got to see H a pretty good bit this weekend...the boy's stayed at the house with an older friends of our's and I got to seek off to visit him at work...to bring him something to eat or something he forgot...

We were even TMing each other until 3am Sat. night/Sun morning...H got off early this weekend, so we were able to snuggle with each other too...

All in all...I had a great weekend...I even got to bake my turkey this weekend...H's company gives them one for Christmas...well, my grandma use to bake the turkey with onions and green onions...then, debone it, shred the meat, put in back into the juice, and brown it for about an hour! It comes out SOOOOO juicy and the taste is delightful!

We'll eat on it for a while then, I'll freeze the rest for another time. Baking it aways brings back good memories...

I'm so excited for you and W(H)...I have rayed for you...hoping and having faith...how blessed your son is... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wishing you the best! Take care and thanks for listening...I think my main goal is to enjoy the time that I have with H...MY LB is FULL, FULL, FULL...I feel compassion for him when I know he's tired, cold, and hungry...there were days, and weeks were I could have cared less...

You sound good Rin. Keep it up and I wish you and your family the best!

Thanks DF! I feel good...I think LA nailed it...It's a matter of Acceptance for me...I accept my life everyday...everyday I wake up, I chose not to bash H in my head...I chose to be healthy everyday...I accept his behavior, and TRY SO hard to see it for what it is and NOT read into it...

I can say that I can clearly see the difference when he's talking to OW and not now...

I even extended a helping hand to a friend of mine...I invited her to join me for the parade yesterday and just comforted her without judging her...I told her that I thought she was a wonderful person and great mother...her H has a problem with drinking and drove the kids home drunk...

She said that outside of that, he's a great person and I agreed with her...he is a great father...I offered an invitation to go to a meeting with me...

It was hard for me...I wanted to extend that hand but at the same time I didn't...but I chose to make myself vulnerable and share my experience with her...I actually feel like I got closer to her and it feels good...I thought about her for a few hours the night before rehearsing the invitation in my head...LOL

It was a big step for me...just telling her that I understand your position and whatever choice you make is good with me...right now, she's staying with a friend...kind of a cooling off period...I listened to her say that she hopes that her H will see what he's doing...

Good exercise in communicating and listening...we had a good time together, laughing, playing with the kids, and hanging out...it's something I would like to do again...

I'm going to make myself a dr. appt. soon...I got the chest thing from the boys...yuck...not all that bad, just enough to weigh you down...

Oh, SL...I want to kill that dog of mine...we can't get her to stop chewing and doing her business in the house...no matter how many times I walk her...I give her treats when she does her stuff outside...we've taken to putting her in her cage now...then letting her out and bringing her straight out...thing is when she gets outside, she wants to play...

She chewed up the boys breathing machine meds...the mask to go on the breathing machine...and anything else she can get her paws on...

Now, I've got ALL kinds of chew toys...at least she's almost stopped dragging our socks around the house...

I love her but I want to kill her sometimes...and she's SO loving...lick, lick, lick...

Well, enough about that...LOL

Rin,

Puppies are tough, sometimes they just need a little guidance. Crating them is really best; it's like their own little space. Make sure the dog is getting enough exercise and that EVERYBODY is on the same page with discipline. If she learns that socks aren't off limits, she'll move on to bigger better things, so be careful there.

A spray bottle is effective to a degree. Really, keeping a keen eye on her and 'catching' her in the act with discipline is best. I think the only time I give my dogs 'treats' is after nail clippings or some CHORE, otherwise, when they are quiet and well-behaved, they get affection. Get the book "The Dog Whisperer" by Cesar Milan. Teach that pup that you are the pack leader, not her. She's a dog, not a KID. Any work you do now will pay you back with dividends later...

Okay, SL...I'll check into it...I was looking for a good training book this Sat. when I brough her to get her Adult shot at Petco...

I didn't see one I liked...well, I nosed around on the net and found cesar's website...LOL...according to the quiz, I'm half way there...

I'll have to remember his saying...exercise, displince, and affection...in that order...

I was teaching her this weekend to ride in the passenger seat...of course, I had treats...by the end of the weekend she was doing good...

Oh, and I got the spray bottle...but the only thing I used it for was to quiet her down if she barked when it was time to go to bed...I'll have to use it for different things...

I'm going to read more on cesar's site...

Thanks for the suggestion...I really appreciate it...

No problem, Rin.

I started looking into working on my greyhounds behavioral issues and found that exercise did a lot of the trick. I'm working, during the cold/low exercise months, on discipline. I think my little terrier needs more attention there. I figure, I wanted them along for the ride, so I've gotta be the one to take the reigns...

Giving back your story helps others and also helps recovery. It's EXACTLY what you need to do.



This is also what you have to do. At night carry her out and tell her to go "potty" When she does, say "Good Potty"...

Crate training works.