She has to meet YOUR conditions to stay in the house. You lay them out, you tell her what you expect, lay out what she has to do so you know she is meeting your conditions, check up on her, and kick her back out if she fails to meet those conditions.

I am going to try to put these 2 links together.

I am in plan A and I wanted to post about something I did this morning that may not have been a great idea. my WS recently had an infection in the nether regions. was actually kind of funny, WS was so worried about STD"s. (I have not had SF with WS since D-day, and have been checked BTW for STD's so I am happily secure) anyhow, this morning I knew they had planned to spend the day in bed together and I sent text to OP stating "beware of fungus, use protection" I got a call from WS enraged.
I tried to reverse babble a little, this is how it went.

WS "why did you leave OP a rude message?"
BS "I am concerned for the health of both of you, you both should be careful"
WS "you are making it impossible for us to be friends"
BS "actually, you sleeping with OP is making it hard for us to be friends"
WS "you are acting like a psycho"
BS "maybe, but at least I have a valid excuse, what's your excuse for your behavior??"
WS "is this what I am going to have to deal with everyday?"
BS " I have to deal with your actions don't I? are you saying that sleeping with OP and a text message are equal offenses?? "
WS " when are you going to the doctor to get on medication??"
BS " I am not, I am dealing much better now that I am learning to live without you"
WS "we cannot go out to night now"
BS " thats right, I don't want you to sleep with OP all day, then take me out on a date. I am going out alone to have a great time. You can do whatever you want.

this is probably not the best way to plan A. but I am losing my patience. how could I wait all day for a date, knowing WS was in OP's bed. I am thinking more and more about plan B. anyone have an example of a PBL???

How long have you been in Plan A, fighting?

What will the living arrangements of your Plan B be?

Your Plan A sounds like it is going really well to me, and you have the three little children who will be effected, so it is paramount that you have all your ducks in a row before Plan B, and that your Plan A has been a good one.

I did not realize in my previous posts to you that you are in a lesbian marriage, not that that probably matters at all in your strategy, but if there are different dynamics going on in gay marriages than heterosexual marriages you might want to talk to someone with some experience in them.

JustJ has this experience and posts sometimes to the thread named "Grayclouds Campfire". Perhaps you could give her a shout.

thanks for the info, I feel like plan A was going very well, actually, my M definately had some problems, and I do own some of that, but I have always been in plan A, from day one. I am self sacrificing to a fault. which is prob one of many problems in my M. but point being is even WS admits that I am a wonderful spouse, has minor c/o but admits that I have always treated her well. even has said to OP that "my wife is beautiful, caring, understanding, and that she doesn't actually know why she is cheating" maybe thats why I am frustrated with plan A, I have been in it all my life. btw I got a book on codependency, and I am reading up. sorry for the dual threads, I will go back to my original one. thanks again

I would call that

REVERSE BABBLE TO A FOGGED UP WS

I WOULD CALL THAT PERFECTION

I would call that excellent plan A....

no chaos
no overt emotion

direct
concrete
with grace and dignity for both....

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARK

oh ark, you have made my day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really needed to hear that. so continuing the chaos in the A is OK even if it causes angry outburst from WS?? as long as my responses are controlled and I don't enter into relationship talk??
I am starting to learn the ways of YODA!!!!!!!!!!

angry outbursts from a Ws...because of their actions..

oh PISHAW>...

phooey....!!!

wah wah wah says the WS seeing the glimpses and realities of their actions...

wah wah wah they say...

how funny is it to say to you..

so now I'm not going to take you out.....

your response....was sublime....

dear I don't want to go out with you after you spend a day in bed with OP>...

again PERFECTION...!!

that's what an authentic body does....

OP steals time and clings to the falseness...

BS walk in reality and the light...

BS SCREAM with their grace..

I am way way way to worthy for this treatment.....

WS flounder in the mess...and slop....

you did really really good...

ARK

Ok now WS is home, totally stunned, told me I look great. I responded as if this morning never happened. cordial. I am on my way out now. gosh that did work lovely, I feel so powerful. thanks again, ark this place is my saving grace!!!!!!!!!

--------------------

Glad things seem to be better, but from my perspective as a FWS your responses to husband were perfect and dead on. My wife didn't have an OP so to speak, but I am sure I would have been furious too. Once I sat down and thought about it, I would have to admit she was right.

I loved everything you did.

--------------------
Jim

OK, thank you everyone for your help, I have tried to stream this together in one thread. your words are very helpful and I keep re reading for support.

I have some plan B question guys. I am at this point the soul finacial supporter. when I go to plan B is it wise to depend on WS for child care?? this means I would have to have direct communication with WS on a regular basis. 3 days /week. I can pay for daycare at the discount rate of $1000/month. but that feels like I am letting WS off the hook. also expensive, but if its worth it I don't mind paying. then she would have no reason to come home except to see the kids. oh, and then do I let her stay at the house all day with them, or a drop off/ pick up type of thing?? has anyone been through A successful plan B with kids?? so confusing.

I am rethinking my idea of when to do plan B vs staying in plan A for a bit longer. I have recently started reading Codependent No More, and I am getting a huge dose of reality. this book speaks to me about all my unhealthy emotional attatchments to people, most of all my WS.

I have begun to tailor my plan A to reflect what I think was missing in my M. and that is space. I used to "smother" my WS so much that WS couldn't breath, nevermind fill any of my needs. no wonder WS is stifling. though WS stated she loves to be "smothered" loves the attention. I do believe that my being such a doormat has caused me to lose WS's respect. so I am reworking myself first and foremost, trying not to react. and I am noticing that WS does not like it. tried to bait me into a fight, conversation anything yesterday. but I remained calm, and after a few statements simply asked WS "why are you trying to bait me??" she had no response.

she is angry that I am reading all these "self help books" stating "you are fine, you are not a doormat, why are you trying to change yourself?". I know this is because she loves the treatment I give her and is afraid I will stop what she is so comforted by. but I don't feel, have not felt respected by WS in a long time, though I could never put a finger on why. now I know my behavior is partly to blame. and I am working on that. it seems contrary to the MB plan of meeting EN's but I have always met WS's needs, that was not our weakness. I don't know what to call this plan, A or B or whatever but it just feels like the right thing to do for me. take care of me first. I am still continuing the rest of plan A and working on a plan B letter. any advice?? any comments??

I just updated my post. Looking for anyone who has dealt with codependency issues during plan A. very confusing to try to meet EN's without being a doormat. trying to regain some respect.

Hi fightingback! Glad to see a family member wandering through the boards, and I'm glad that you've been getting such good advice. Don't worry about all the folks who lose track of the fact that you're both women -- the stories really don't vary any. Anyone can play any role.

I'm going to focus on an aspect that you are starting to address with the codependency stuff. I've never read any of those books, but you might want to know that Willard Harley has a real problem with using that stuff in the context of a marriage. You should, for example, be able to depend on your partner for some things. The problem, if I can state it very briefly, is that the codependency books are written for ADDICTION. And addiction is a kind of crazy that is very, very different from the "normal" life of an "average" marriage.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

I will also say, however, that Dr. Harley (and most everyone else who thinks about infidelity) says that an affair IS an addiction. It may very well have those same crazy-making effects and side-effects. The difference, at least for an affair like your partner's, is that it is a transient effect rather than a permanent one.

Hmmm. Perhaps I'm throwing too much at you at once. I'd simplify by just saying: Read with care and think before you act.

And that leads me to another part of your overall efforts. So far, you're dealing with things in a remarkably clear-headed fashion. Keep doing that. And remember that because you are in a same-sex relationship, you will need to make sure that your kids are protected from your adult problems with their other mom.

Here's what I mean.

When you go into Plan B, you'll need to have a clear visitation schedule worked out. That's not for your benefit and it's not for your partner's benefit. It's for the benefit of your children, who need both their parents. Since it sounds like she is the primary caregiver, you'll need to understand that the "system" is stacked against you the way it would be stacked against a man, particularly for your oldest child who is also not your biological child.

Another word of warning. NEVER use your children as a weapon. Since you have two biological children and she has one, a threat of any kind in that regard will simply become global thermonuclear war. (A friend of mine once said that if you fight, it's war. If you bring the kids into the fight, then it's nuclear. He was right.)

JustJ, thanks so much for commenting on my thread. I am definately focusing on how to formulate plan B. My WS may start a job in Jan (hopefully) and therefore would be able to move out on Feb 1st, to an apartment. I would like to have a Mediated agreement drawn up for kids and such, but she refuses to pay for it. in our state we have zero rights so the agreement would have to be voluntary. I am unsure as how to proceed with that. My instinct is to say OK I will pay for it, but thats not right either. I am feeling more confident that this is a transient situation. as I am watching WS go down in flames, so to speak.

the atrocities that she sputters are just getting more bizarre. as of late, WS states that she is getting apt on her own, wants to "see other people" besides OP. checking out online dating services. is in pursuit of "Happiness". OH, also that she doesn't want to leave, I am "forcing her" UGH!!

my MIL finally hit me with a frying pan on the head last night, she said "WS doesn't want your M or OP, she wants only the parts of each of you she already has" that statement made it clear to me that this really is only about a crisis in WS!!!! I know I already knew that. why is it that I have to hear things and see thing about a zillion times before it sinks in??? sometimes I feel like I am in a fog of my own!!!!

Anyone interested in casting light on the newest of my shadows????
currently working on plan B letter, in the interum have been slightly withdrawn, still engaging in polite conversation. NO RELATIONSHIP TALK> other than, "I will fight for our M, but I will do nothing less than that"

WS wants to be "friends", still wants to share family vacations/ a home and such. then I check on my keylogger this am to find she is arguing with OP. they are taking some space it seems, in between the declarations of "if it is meant to be, it will be" and of course the "ILY, and I believe in us" wretching!!!!

I know this is good, but on the next page I find WS registered on Match.com (on my dime, no less) and placing an ad to meet someone new. It sounded so cute. "never done this before, I liked your smile" I cannot make sense of it. anyone with any idea??? thanks I guess the "I fell in Love with OP" excuse is out the window. but now what, she wants to be single???? huh???

I am by not all means an expert like some of these guys here but here is what I think.

OP is not meeting the needs in her that he once was so she's looking for someone else to fill that void. This should be a perfect time for you to Plan A, IMO.

thanks cw, but I am seriously confused.

I thought I was done with plan A. mostly when I am around WS, I feel like I am either going to hit her with a sledgehammer, or vommit. my anxiety and resentment is getting harder and harder to conceal. WS has asked me to go out dancing and such, I know she would accept say, if I offered to take her out on the town. but that was prior to all the plan B talk.

now I am afraid if I change course, she will see me as fickle, confused, weak. I have already had the " I will do anything for our M to survive, but I am not interested in your friendship" talk. I am finally carving out an ounce of respect, I wonder if that is what is drawing her back. I don't want to lose the edge I have. and I don't want to change my focus, if this is what is working.

I also don't want to screw up a perfect opportunity to show her, I can give her all that excitement she has been missing. this is so hard to navigate.

the other thing is, she is having panic attacks again, regularly. I wonder if she wants to just stay here where she feels safe. she told OP that she is fighting against her feelings to stay in her "comfort zone" in other words=me
she is stating that she feel self destructive. I am worried, although I know I should not step in, how can I not??? whew!!!!!!!! still no closer to a clue.

any suggestions?????

I'm bumping this up so others may comment.

If you're sure you're ready to Plan B, then my suggestions don't make alot of sense.

As for the panic attacks I think you're right. She's scared of the unknown. I remember feeling like that when I was a wayward.

If you're not in Plan B (no contact with her at all), then you have to be in Plan A. There is no in-between.

I'd say take her out and have a great time and show her what she's missing.... that's the carrot.


But don't forget the stick ... bring up the truth, don't let her behavior just be swept under the rug.

"WS, I know that you are continuing to disrespect me, our children, and our M by registering on a dating site to meet other people."
"I am your spouse. If you choose to leave this M, I will not be your friend."

Etc.


You're not in Plan B until you've pulled the rug competely out from under her. The whole point of Plan B is to not meet any of her needs anymore, so she can realize that the OW can't meet them all, and how great she had it with you.

You've got to do a stellar Plan A for Plan B to be effective. So take her out, show her a great time, have fun. And since it sounds like you're pretty far in the hole of losing your love for her, plan and figure out how you will get into Plan B as soon as possible.

That may be legally more difficult in your circumstance -- and I don't know how to advise you on any of that. But I don't think I'd wait until she maybe decides to move out in Feb.


-AmI.