Good point Believer...and I'm probably not giving good advice with what I'd said.

His best bet WOULD be to contact a lawyer on how to proceed with this. Thanks for suggesting that for him.

In my state that would get you into trouble. Here we cannot move the personal possessions of our spouse out the door if they are also on the mortgage.

Having the police come would end up as a domestic disturbance call, a police report, and a record of the event that might adversely affect one's ability to get custody.

You can change the locks, but you'd only have to give her a key if she requested it.

Owl, and Hiker - Hope you will keep posting to him. He needs some male support. He is doing a great job, making very difficult choices under hard circumstances.

I am very hopeful though.

Hey guys, thanks for all the support.
you may not realize this, the info is posted a little earlier in my thread, but I am actually a woman, lesbian relationship. I try to stick to the WS OP tags to make it easier with the pronouns.
I really do appreciate all the kind words, and things do get a little sticky re: possession and all because in my state we have no M rights, just 2 singles living and owning a home together, I have talked to my lawyer and she says we have joint ownership, and she can come and go as she pleases. so when my WS comes back as she surely will, I HAVE to control myself. I, we have never been physically abusive but today I was so angry I could see it happen. I wanted to ring her neck. just have to keep my cool. if WS shows up I have a plan, called take the kids and go. I already arranged with friends to stay there if it comes to that, but so far I have talked to WS and she has agreed to stay away this weekend, we shall see.

FB - Well, holy cr*p. Forgot that. Now I have to go back and re-read 96 posts!

Okay, my advice is the same, with the exception of getting an attorney.

I'm forwarding Dobson's Tough Love article. After that, I have a couple more comments.

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger". . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.
If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.
Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.
Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.
Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.
Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.
To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc.
Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!"
This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.
If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead."
Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.
"But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure."
It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.
If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:
1. The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
2. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!
3. The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.

Believer, thanks again, your post is a great reminder, I actually have dobsons book, and I am thinking tonight is the perfect time to start reading it for the second time. I was an emotional mess tonight, as I have spoke to WS and she found out just an hour after getting the boot by me, that she actually got the one and only job she applied for. talk about divine intervention(we didn't think she would know for weeks) she starts in 2 wks, will rent an apartment this weekend. I feel relief and disgust and despair. now I don't have to put up with this garbage, but also her leaving will take its toll. thanks again for your support

Now, my next comment. I really hope that you won't be offended, because I think you are a good woman.

Your partner and you are lesbians, and chose to have children together. You knew that you could not get married as the laws stand now. You knew that there was no legal protection for your family. But you decided to do it anyway.

And now things are bad. The choices you made left your family defenseless in our society.

The only thing to do now is to adhere to your original agreement. You had the children. You ARE a family. You need to keep the kids together and support them - just like a "normal" family would do.

If you do anything else (and I am speaking mainly of your WW), you are not being true to your beliefs and your family.

no offense taken. my partner and I struggled with the decision and went through painstaking measures to ensure that our family would be secure. now I realize, there is no such security. we both have agreed from the beginning that the children would never be separated (she gave birth to our eldest and I to our younger 2). we do have very specific wills drawn that reflect care of the children if anything would happen to either of us, painstaking because of our sitch. and now I realize we should have done a guardianship, which would grant each one of us legal rights over the others biological children. in essence the kids would have 1 parent and 1 guardian with equal rights. I have an appt with a lawyer to talk more of that.

we also had the children all of the same donor, so they really are biologically linked. we live in NH, and bordering massachusetts have many friends who are actually married, we never have been jealous of not having that right, we thought we were fine! now I feel like I am hanging in the balance and yes I feel like a failure to my children. even though I am disgusted with my WS for her behavior, I am so lucky that I chose a person that values her children like I do. she is a great mother. through this whole ordeal neither of us has EVER placed the children in the middle or talked bad about the other to them. we have been unified in protecting them to any extent possible. now, I can only hope that it continues. because, as you've pointed out, its all on faith. It is very scary for me to realize how little rights I have. thanks for your input

Well, even regular marriages are based on faith and trust. But if things go wrong, there is some recourse.

I didn't realize that Mass still has the law on the books for gay marriages. I knew it passed, but thought there were challenges.

So anyway, I hope that you will press on. I still think that your marriage can be saved. My advice remains the same. Don't enable her affair. Don't financially support her. Hopefully she does have a job, but being a BS I have doubts. So be prepared that she might still be not being truthful.

Keep the kids in the forefront and encourage her to help you in caring for them. That means supporting them financially. If she has to drop out of school, that is a consequence of her choices.

thanks believer, we have only touched on how we would handle finances. we have a lot of talking to do. right now emotions are running high. I have a lawyer lined up who will mediate some sort of legal agreement re: kids finances and custody, but the problem is, WS would have to do it voluntarily, as we don't have any M rights. I am struggling with aspects such as keeping OP away from my kids, I am unsure how to address this. if I stipulate separation from OP, she may not be willing to sign, and thus more legal problems. yikes. I could put a restraining order against OP from seeing my kids, but don't want to be seen as being viscious, I am unsure of how much to trust WS.

this could be one of the hardest days of my life, and only to get worse, before it gets better. I spoke to WS and she may need to be around this weekend to get her stuff/ move in if she can secure a place. btw, my WS is extremely frugal financially, she would never sign a lease without absolutely knowing she could pay for it. thus I believe the job thing. just gotta keeping pushing through

OK, so in trying to formulate some sort of plan, I am thinking of kicking in a good plan A week before she moves out and then a very dark plan B. My MIL lives with us and is a nanny, so she will be watching the kids while I work, I work 3 12hr shifts, so I am away 3days, now WS will be working m-f 8-5 then school 3 nights and watching kids every sunday for me so I can work. doesn't sound like she will have much time for OP or the kids, never mind me, bottom rung!!!!!!!!growl! I will have my MIL to help with the transfer of care of the kids on sun, then I prob wont have to see her all week except maybe sat's. so how do I act in plan B when I do see her, standoffish would be a DJ, or is that ok for planB??? do I act pleasant??

and what about this weekend?? am I pleasant, distant ? I don't know exactly how to do this part, the transition. I do have a PBL I am going to post for advice, I have to do a little work first. I do want to ssay that I am feeling a little better today. I feel like this is meant to happen. my WS got her job 1hr after I gave her the boot. that is way too coincidental.

What I did with my ex was sit down calmly together and write out a plan. In California, it can be used, just like dissolving a business. The attorney was going to finalize it for only $400.

Ex wrote it, and we agreed, took it to attorney, I paid the $400. and when it was ready, ex refused to sign it. But the good part is that I knew exactly where ex stood. And that is how it was for 3 years.

So, it might be helpful to the two of you to do the same. At least it will give her a picture of how her future life will be.

As for your children, to me they should be treated the same as kids in any marriage. They should be supported by both parents, and have visitation with both parents. I don't like the idea of them not being together.

OK, my weakness is showing, I just sent this letter to OP
I just couldn't control myself, I have to let my feelings out. am I going off the deep end. ?????????????????


L, you have won the heart of the love of my life. congratulations. you get the prize. you have successfully broken my family apart. this may be the worst week of my life, and yes J's as well. my son has his mind filled with divorce, and it broke my heart to watch him cry. you may have felt betrayed by someone you love, yet I am certain you have NO Idea how it feels to watch your children watch a parent walk out the door. nor do you know what it is like to commit to a family for 15 years and realize it is being ripped away from you without your control. so rejoice, this is a happy time for you. Love that is won in this way comes at a price, the price of 4 lives that will forever be changed. sleep contented in that.

now I ask you to do something self less, not for yourself, not for your sweet jillian even. but for me. have the decency to give her and I 1 week to act in a way that would make her family proud. we all know she can't resist you. so perhaps you could be the bigger person and have an ounce of respect for our relationship of 15 years. and give us both some space to end this together. I can't handle the threesome any longer. you will have her all to yourself soon enough, but maybe not soon enough for you.

Well, it's kind of a mistake, but if it made you feel better, okay.

The problem is that the OP DOESN'T care about your kids or family, or she would not be in this relationship. It is much healthier to IGNORE the OP.

I know it was a mistake, I am reeling out of control today. I can't believe this is what my life has come to. I have lost all my calm. I know this is right, it just feels so darn horrible. I can't do anything. I feel so helpless.

Most of us felt the same way at one time, and are much better now. It is harder for you, because you don't have as much legal recourse. But even the law doesn't help many. In the end it usually comes down to what the partners can work out. Very few cases are decided by the courts.

I'm thinking that you still have all the cards, since WW and OP have no where to live. Personally I would stay in Plan A for awhile, with her out of the house. Put a little pressure on them. WW is a little spoiled. It will be interesting to see how much time she has when she is working and paying for her own place.

Believer,
thanks so much for your continued interest. I truly feel like no one in my life really understands what this feels like. I think your advice is good, a little more plan A. and you hit the nail on the head WW is very spoiled. and coddled by me, a fact I have been working on and have slowly been changing. WW is very angry today, and I think feeling pretty guilty. she has spent the whole day with the kids, from what my MIL tells me. and I think she is probably pretty angry at me for placing the ultimatum. ww is very controlling, never likes to be told what to do.
oh well, my panic is turning to depression, but I know the calm will come again. funny how this ride keeps repeating itself. it helps to know others have been there. thanks again

To be effective, Plan B needs to be real dark. So things have to be set up - financially, and with the kids. That is very hard to when you don't know if she has a job, etc.

So you will most likely HAVE to do Plan A for a bit more, but with some boundaries. No more having you support WW and spending time on the couch at OP's. If it turns out she doesn't have a job (which is what I suspect), that couch time is needed to get a job.

I still think it is essential that you work out some of the details of finances. You can let her know for example, her share of child care will be $500., xxx for food, clothes, necessities for kids. That will help her decide how much she can afford for rent and food for herself.

yes, I think you are right. I have had tentative conversations with her, but this week is a great time to get things ironed out. I just spoke with WS, and she agreed to NC until she can get into her own apartment, then I agreed to let her stay in the den until she can move into apartment which she says the earliest will next weekend. the job starts jan 8th??? so she says. I have already split our checking accounts up, I just have to move my Direct deposit to my new account. great plan for next week. reality is setting in. but its OK, I need to focus, you've got me on the right track.