My H has in theory had NC with OW since August and he still brings her up all the time. It's like he is intentionally twisting the knife. He seems to only be ok when I'm crying. Why is that? Does he really want me to hurt that bad? Why does he constantly have to say things like I know the perfect gift for her but I have no idea what to get you? I know there is a withdrawal period but does it have to include more heartache for me? Will there ever be a time when he doesn't view the OW as the holy grail? How do you deal with your H having feelings for another woman and still look at him like the man you trust and love. My friend told me she thinks I'm going through the stages of grief-is that normal? Should I be sticking around if he is doing nothing to show we are his priority? He says all the right things but does nothing to fix things. Can someone please help me understand the anger mixed with ambivilance I'm feeling toward my H because sometimes I'm so angry and just want him gone and other times I feel like we'll eventually be okay. Please help!

Mel

Mellysue:

If I ever said this to my BS after D-day:

I know the perfect gift for her but I have no idea what to get you?

I would get the twisted knife, right in the gut!

Of all the awful things WS say that I read about on this site, that one takes the cake. Really, to me it does.

To be blunt, 15 months later, I still think about OW. Just like my BS thinks about the awful thing I did to her. That is a fact of life. I aplogize regularly for my many errors, and try to aknowledge her pain in whatever way I can. But the thoughts I have of OW are way different from what they were prior to Dday and soon afterward.

So, your H is stuck in the past. You need to move with the Plan A, and let him know more about you and what is happening so that answer to that question will be that he knows what the perfect gift for you would be.

I would have more, but I have to run.

Melly - Please click on the first link in my sig line and see if it sounds familiar. We can discuss more if you like.
Mulan

mellysue,

I have not run across this attitude from a WS before.

It's like he is trying to push you away and make you sad.

The OW broke it off, correct? He got dumped??

So he is angry at her and angry at you for discovering it, and he is so immature that he cannot man up to his wrongdoings and show any remorse...like a stubborn spoiled child.

I am confused, though, when you say ""He says all the right things but does nothing to fix things"" but then also say ""It's like he is intentionally twisting the knife. He seems to only be ok when I'm crying.""

Is this a Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde type of personality going on here?

""Can someone please help me understand the anger mixed with ambivilance I'm feeling toward my H""

The longer you live with him while he is acting this way the less you will love and respect him and the MORE you will become disgusted by and grow to loath him.

And why live with a hurtful malicious creep like him anyway?

krk

O my God! This describes my H and his family perfectly. The examples are all him. In fact in the 1 therapy session he went to the therapist tried to address this issue and he of course ran for the hills. We've been dealing with the A for over a year although dday was in May and he went back in August. He has a very Dr. Jeckyll/Mr. Hyde personality. My kids have recently expressed a desire to see him leave as he was so committed to OW that they now blame themselves for the hurt he has caused because they see that he wanted to be around her but is always running from here. But when is enough enough?

I have to thank everyone for their help-I'm sooo grateful!
Mel

Melly - in that case, please read through the second link as well. It is an MB thread on the In Recovery board and is very long, but I think it will help you immensely. If you're short on time, you can start on page 53 and then read from the beginning later on.

Good luck and let me know if I can help you with this. I, and several other BS here, have been dealing with passive/aggressive spouses for a long time - as you will see if you read through that other thread.
Mulan

I first have to thank everyone for their support. It is greatly appreciated. When does this all finally become bearable. I don't even feel like I know him anymore. I read an email he sent to me and one to someone else and you would never know they were from the same person-one sounds like a man concerned about the state of his marriage and family and the other sounds like 14 yr old boy. How do I know which is truly him. Once upon a time everyone knew he loved his family and now people are surprised to hear he has one. He says he still cares for the OW and that is like a swift kick to the gut. And I'm so tired and just flat out exhausted. It feels like walking away is the right thing to do. Sometimes things seem fixable but most of the time it's a mess. I keep thinking if he loved me how could he do this to me. He says he thinks leaving is the best thing for everyone and I think I agree but he doesn't want to go because it might not be the right thing. With all the digs about the OW and the failing of our marriage he's only hurting me more and more. We were watching a music video the other day and he said the singer was ugly and he couldn't see why everyone talks about how pretty she is and quikly followed that with OW is prettier than her. Why does he feel the need to twist that knife and then make light of the state of our marriage-I'll be moving out soon so haha...like its all a big joke. Do you know when to let go? Or is it something you just get used to? Will I know when to walk away?

Melly

I am sorry but this behavior by your WH is damaging emotionally and spiritually and I for one would not allow it. If he was so damn happy with the OW then he should go and pursue it.

I think I would be tempted to say this:
WH: "We were watching a music video the other day and he said the singer was ugly and he couldn't see why everyone talks about how pretty she is and quikly followed that with OW is prettier than her"
You: "Maybe, but obviously she didn't feel the same about you. How does that make you feel?"

Let him know what it feels like to be hurt with words and unuseful his behavior is at starting a new marriage with you.

I know there are some on here that we "get me" for this and probably rightfully so. But, I would not accept anything other than balls to the wall committment from a Wayward who Needs to WIN THEIR way back into the M, not the other way around. I want to see blood on their knees and hands and I want to hear remorse in every word uttered from their lips and if not hit the road jack/jane. This presupposes that you were a good H/W and that the decisions of the wayward were independently and selfishly motivated and lack justification of any sort to any realistic human being.

Sorry for the rant, but I get so tired of seeing these waywards come back only to act like ****** to the BS they should be in their hands and knees thanking for not throwing them to the curb!

He does this to provoke you into tears and rage and an Angry Outburst.

He gets two things if he succeeds:

1) He gets to feel secure that he is winning and you are losing - that he has all the power in the relationship and you have none.

2) He gets to be the victim of your anger and rage. When someone is a victim, they don't deserve any consequences for their own actions.

That's why.
Mulan

So what do I do? I've done calm. I've done angry. I've done the tears and pain. I've suggested that he go be with her if she's so fantastic. But its lik beating my head against the wall. I tried reading the info on passive aggressive H but with a baby and 3 others I don't get a lot of time. But I feel like hopeandpray. I played the all american housewife-I cooked,cleaned, took care of the kids-everything. He never had to lift a finger. He came and went as he pleased. I took on ALL of the responsibility which I now realize was a mistake and I have taken steps to be more assertive and be a little less critical of myself. The A went on for a year while I made a fool of myself begging and pleading for him to stop but to no avail. Of course everything is my fault-I was too tired to baby him more than I already was. He never had to ask for anything. I made it too easy for him. But now here I am and I don't know how much more I can take.

Melly

Melly, I am going to re-post three essays for you. They're the shortcut. Please do read the MB link in my sig line as you can.

The Definition of Passive/Aggressive Behavior by Mulan:

P/A behaviour is using PASSIVE and seemingly harmless actions in a deliberately AGGRESSIVE manner to control, manipulate, or just plain hurt someone else.

If you ask them to DO something and they seem to make a point of NOT doing it - forgetting, dragging their feet, making excuses, etc. -

If you ask them NOT to do something and they seem to make a point of DOING it - it's a coincidence, you don't understand, I didn't do it to hurt you -

That's Passive/Aggressive behaviour.

People do this for several reasons:

1) They have an extreme aversion to being controlled. They believe they will be consumed if they become a partner to someone, so they control you before you can "control" them.

2) To do as they please and avoid the consequences.

3) All of the above.

Practically everybody in an affair employs P/A behaviour, but some are a lot worse than others and keep it up throughout the relationship. It's the same way that some people might have a glass of wine at dinner but others become full-blown falling-down drunks.

Recognizing this behavior is the first step to sanity and personal recovery. This stuff will leave you stark screaming crazy if you don't understand what it is (BT, DT, GTTS).
Mulan

How I Dealt With A Passive/Aggressive Spouse by Mulan

I spent six years on MB and got nowhere until I understood what I was really dealing with. Then things changed almost overnight. The MB principles could not and did not work until the passive/aggressive behavior was addressed, and THEN they could work.

My #1 EN is honesty and openness. He is P/A. How do ya think THAT was working?!

This is what I said to WH once I understood that the real problem in our relationship was the P/A behavior and his belief that I was trying to "control" him:

First, I truly and seriously acknowledged that he really did feel "controlled" when I wanted to use POJA. He would snarl, "That feels like control!" I said, "I know it does. I know that's how it makes you feel. (NO SARCASM! I REALLY MEANT THIS!) And I also know that there is nothing I can say that will change your mind on that. I can only show you how POJA works by trying it on some things. If you want to try it, you can let me know."

Second, I truly and seriously acknowledged that I did NOT want to control him in any way. I wanted a WILLING partner, not a child to control or an animal on a leash. And if he did not want to be a willing partner to me, the last thing I wanted was to keep on pushing to be a partner to me, since I really did NOT want to control him.

Therefore, I would no longer expect to go anywhere or do anything at HIS events - you know, things he plans or wants to do - because that obviously made him feel stuck with me and obligated to bring me along (and therefore controlled.) If he wanted to keep on going to movies and ball games and on trips without me, that was fine, because I really did NOT want to control him this way and I would MUCH rather find something else to do without him. (AND I MEANT THIS).

Furthermore, I would no longer expect him to show up at MY events, either. (I am a novelist and sometimes go to book signings, conferences, conventions, etc. He was always invited and I wanted him there, but at the last one he dragged his butt to the event and behaved so horribly to me that I swore I'd never invite him again.) I told him I'd learned my lesson from that particular event. If my inviting him made him feel "controlled," in that he felt obligated to show up or I'd be upset, then I did NOT want him to even consider going. I'd go alone and have a perfectly fine time without him. (AND I MEANT THIS.)

I cannot tell you what a difference this has made. We are going to Disneyland next week, just the two of us.

The weekend after that, I have another conference where I am doing a writers' workshop and speaking on several panels as well as going to the parties Saturday night. I simply told him when it was and that I would be at such-and-such hotel all day Saturday and Sunday (staying in a room I paid for on Saturday night.) I said nothing at all about him going, just politely informed him that that's where I would be if anyone needed to get hold of me. And I really did not expect him to go. If he hadn't, I fully intended to go alone and enjoy the event and just let him do what he wanted - and maybe wonder about what I was doing! But he has insisted on coming along, wants to know what he should wear, etc.

The difference is like day and night. And it happened when I just suddenly and completely dropped the reins and let the horse run off if it wanted to. But guess what! The critter ran for a bit, and then circled around and came right back home.

You can do the same. There are no guarantees that it will work. It relies on the fact that you ARE willing to walk away from the marriage if he cannot and will not stop the P/A behavior. But he can't push on you if you aren't pushing on him - and THAT is what makes all the difference.

I was not able to walk away before I understood P/A behaviour. But I could now, since I DO understand it. And boy has THAT ever made a difference.

Here's the tough love part. Your H is right. You ARE trying to control him. You ARE still trying to push and pressure him into being an honest non-P/A man. And that will NEVER, EVER, work.

Try doing what I did - try telling your H that you DON'T want to control him and if that's how your actions make him feel (and they do!), then you will STOP ALL OF THEM RIGHT NOW. Thank him for letting you know, since you really did not understand this before (and you didn't). (Yes, I said that too, and I meant it!!!)

Then dress up nice, get your purse and go out alone for a while. Go out shopping or to a movie or whatever. You will be amazed at what this approach can do.

You have absolutely nothing to lose by doing this and absolutely everything to gain, even if it's just gaining back your own life.
Mulan

One more post on dealing with a Passive/Aggressive spouse by Mulan:

I want to emphasize that it is the simple act of Calling Them On Their Behaviour **in itself** that is so effective.

"Calling Them" just means that you look them straight in the eye and calmly tell them that you KNOW their actions are deliberate and ARE meant to keep you off-balance and out of the way so the P/A can do what they please. You don't buy excuses or bend yourself into a pretzel trying to make sense out of nonsense anymore.

To put it bluntly, you start calling "bullsh*t" on their P/A behaviour.

Again, here's an example:

Picture somebody sneaking around in the dark and stealing your stuff. You can't see them and you can't prove it, but you KNOW damn well they're stealing your stuff even though they vehemently proclaim their innocence and insist you're crazy to think they're stealing your stuff.

You spend ages trying to talk them out of stealing your stuff and telling them how much it hurts you when they steal your stuff, but this makes no difference and they go right on stealing your stuff.

So, you try a different tactic:

The next time you feel sure they're stealing your stuff, you turn a glaring spotlight on them and get on a bullhorn saying, "YOU ARE STEALING MY STUFF. I KNOW YOU ARE BECAUSE I CAN SEE YOU DOING IT AND I AM NOT BLIND. THIS IS RUINING OUR RELATIONSHIP AND WE WILL NEVER HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE STEALING MY STUFF. HAVE A NICE DAY."

Then you GO AWAY and leave them standing there in the glaring spotlight holding your bag of stolen stuff, with nobody to blame or argue with but themselves.

You don't stand there and wait for them to apologize, or agree with you, or make amends, or anything else. You GO AWAY AND LEAVE THEM THERE HOLDING THE BAG ALL ALONE.

That's it. That's all. For 99.999 % of people, just confronting them under that glaring spotlight IS enough to make them stop - believe it or not! And for the .001% who won't, well, you would never have been attracted to one of those in the first place.

It's the confrontations **in and of themselves** that are effective. That's it. That's all you have to do. The confrontation is an enormous boundary in itself, as long as you are consistent about it and refuse to be talked out believing your own perceptions any longer.
Mulan

This all sounds great! I get the feeling all the time that he is deliberately excluding me. While it may be a little difficult to get out as I have 4 small kids he refuses to watch for any length of time but I will sure give it a shot. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard its just a coincidence. But how do I keep from going crazy during all of this when I have zero trust in him and his word?

Melly

Melly, Hi, I am not trying to thread jack, but I totally feel your pain. My H is very similar to yours. While I am at home with my gorgeous 20 month old DD...

I was wondering if Mulan could help a bit more in how to deal with these P/A men. I have read the articles from Mulan, but still dealing with them, is quite a challange, as both you and I know...

I will keep up with your sitch Melly, as it sound so much like mine...

Ali

I am so glad to hear from someone is going through it with me so to speak. I just feel like I'm accomadating him and it seems to me that it should be the other way around. I've been crushed and the best I can do is let him do what he wants? But Mulan is hitting the nail on the head! A family member of mine did this on her own and it worked! So what do we have to lose? Trust is sooo important to me and this is going to be so hard but I'm exhausted and we are so close to calling it quits. He says leaving is what is best fr him because then he won't be hurting us anymore. If he knows he's hurting us why not do the therapy to fix it or do something atleast? Hopefully this will work. Even if it doesn't help my M atleast maybe it'll help me deal with the things that are costing me my sanity. We'll see-my H's big complaint for a long time was that we didn't include him now it's that we do-crazy.

MELLY

Hi Melly, Our boys are definite stinkers. Not reealizing what they are losing. But how do we let them know they are losing us??

I feel it is too difficult to go compltely Plan B because of children. But I know many here who have done it, I just know that it has been too difficult for me.

This is why I want more info on how to deal with these P/A issues. I am not saying I don't have P/A issues myself, but my H by far, takes the cake...

I too, am exhausted and have been going throught this for a year. I have been the only one fighting for the marriage while H has been completely indifferent. All along still lying to me about the most insane things. This I do not understand.

All I truly want is HONESTY!!! I would like very much for him to admit his affair - whether it have been an EA or a PA. I don't care - I can forgive it, as long as I were to get total honesty first. But until then, I simply cannot and will not allow myself to be betrayed and disrespected anymore...

Wow - did I totally threadjack that one... so sorry melly -- Keep your chin up - this sucks sucks sucks....

Hi, guys - you start with just two steps:

1) Expect NOTHING from your P/A spouse. Do not ask them to do something, do not ask them NOT to do something, and do not expect them to fill your emotional needs. If something needs to be done, take care of it yourself and/or ask someone else to help.

2) Call him out on the P/A behaviour every time he does it, as described in the posts above.

That's how you start. Obviously you can't live that way permanently, but this is the double-strength chemotherapy that *might* cure the nasty P/A disease so that the MB principles can finally have a chance to work.

Good luck, and please keep posting. We all need each other.
Mulan

Okay - again, Melly I am so sorry to threadjack here but hopefully my questions will help you as well...

The expect nothing part is getting easier. As well as the do not ask them to do anything.

I guess what I need to know is how do I decifer what the P/A bahavior is?????

My example from today - and Melly I am terribly sorry... I am still with you... H called and was venting about work. Then was saying that he could go pick something up for lunch. Silence. So of course, I offer for him to come here and I will make him a hot dog or whatever for lunch. Is this something I need to stop doing?

The silence makes me think he expected me to do it, and honestly, I feel like I only did it because of the darn silence...

Sorry Melly. I have no idea if you are going through any of this tiny crap that I am, but the P/A thing has hit a nerve... And I am just not sure what to do. Plus - I am sort of non-confrontational - at least - I don't like to do it, but if I had the right tools and info - Then I think I could do it correctly - in order to get a responce...

I totally feel you!! My H lied about watching sports and Star Wars-how ridiculous! My H has admitted to his A but he likes to let a little truth come through at a time so its like losing gravity everyday. He likes the little digs and acts as if this is no skin off his back. I am a stay-at-home mom and this is going to be so hard but a divorce now-or if this doesn't work- later I suppose is just details. Atleast this way maybe the emotional upheaval will be less. I'm just a little worried about being able to pull it off. And maybe after they lose everything we'll be strong enough to have everything on our own!

Mulan-
You are a lifesaver! I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your help!!