Threadjack away-I have the same q's. I'm not exactly sure what P/A behavior I'm looking for. And I too feel like I might be better served with the right tools. This P/A behavior has broken my heart more times than I can count and with the kids this whole I'm not gonna do it crap is a fifth child I don't need nor want. I have enough on my plate without this garbage. The little I have done in doing my own thing has been so hard but if I can do better at addressing all the times he does these things I know I'll be better off.

I also have to ask how exactly to address it-Do I just point blank say you didn't take out the garbage-have a nice day or what? I just want to do this right.

Hey Melly, I too, am a SAHM, and I love it, but will be going back to work hopefully in about 4 months... Wanted to just say, I am so sorry you are going through this too.. It is a major stinker, and these boys of ours are idiots... We still love them, but still... IDIOTS...

At least your H admitted to an affair. I have cell phone records, text messages that I have seen, seen them together on a comapny trip to Mexico, also spoke to her husband about it, but H still says they are just friends -- Un hun - BS, my friend...

I have been going through this since Summer of 2005 when DD was only 3 months old and I "felt" something was different between us. The I saw them in Mexico and just knew... Gut insinct, yada yada, but bad really bad. But still, even though I have seen everything in black and white, H won't admit to anything and this kills me b/c if he did - I could forgive and I feel we could move on with honesty and trust. But at this point, I have none of that, and never will, until H admits at least some wrong doing...

Melly - so sorry. All of this with little children to watch over and raise - it about the hardest thing ever...

I feel your pain and I am with you 100%..

Ali

If y'all want to post some specific examples of what you think might be P/A behaviour, I'll try to help. We may be able to get some of the other posters here who have experience with this, such as TruBluz, Silverpool, and Myschae. Oh, and frognomore, who has a seriously P/A wife.

Reading the MB thread in my link below will also help. It's very long, so just read it as you can.

The short answer:

If the person's actions (or inactions) allow him to Win and you to Lose -

and at the same time allow him to be your victim because you will be angry and hurt and maybe even raging -

it's almost certainly P/A behaviour.

Let me ask you both this: How do your husbands feel about the POJA?
Mulan

An example might be-he calls from work 100 times a day and then gets irritated when I can't call back or don't have time to answer. But if I call him he acts like I have just asked him to lay down his life for me. He also says I'm gonna help clean-I'll vacuum/mop but then leaves it for me. I planned a weekend trip for the kids and me and he whined about he wasn't invited and then when I said he could come he made us all miserable. How do I address these issues? He is also very hateful towards the kids-he says because they take me away from him-but I really think it has more to do with control. He yells until they cry like he digs at me about OW until I cry. Like now he wants to leave because "its best for the kids and me" because he is such a bad person which is only because I don't let him do what he wants. He has on many occasions told me that loving and supporting someone means letting them do whatever they want. Whether its hurtful or not. I'm so lost when it comes to this because it of course evokes exactly what hes looking for-anger and resentment.

I'm not sure about this one - do you mean he calls and calls trying to get your attention, but when you do call back he doesn't want to talk to you?


This is very typical. He is showing you that he's in control and you are not. For the time being, just say nothing about whether he cleans or not. If necessary, do it yourself or get the kids to help. Say nothing if he comments on it, because he probably will in an effort to push your buttons. Have you gotten into the habit of complaining about his failure to clean when he said he would? That's what he wants so he can be the poor nagged-to-death victim. Say Nothing!


Also very typical. Again, he wants to show you that he's in control and you are not, and then he gets to be the victim of the misery he causes. Tell him where you're going and tell him he is neither invited nor disinvited. He can join you if he wants or stay home if he wants. Then leave.

A bit later, when you feel you are ready, you can call him out on this behaviour, too, and tell him you are well aware that it's all deliberate.


Sounds like a whiney mean little ten-year-old brat, doesn't he? That's because emotionally, all P/As are about ten years old.

No matter what else happens, you are going to have to step in here and start protecting your children from him. What you describe is abuse, plain and simple.


It's going to evoke Child Protective Services and the police if you don't do something to get between him and your children. Yes, it WOULD be best for the kids to have him leave until he learns to behave towards them like a father instead of like a nasty little ten-year-old bully.

I wholeheartedly agree.
Mulan

Hi Mulan and Melly, How are you all today? So my H always says he will do something (big or small), but never does it. I have to remind him all the time about certain things. This makes it very difficult to trust him with anything. That is what i hate the most. I have no faith that he will do what he says, and I beleive a man is only as good as his word, so this is a huge let down...

So you are telling me to stop reminding him. Okay I can do that, but what if it is something I simply cannot do myself. Example: we are transferring my cell phone bill to me, but I am not authorized on the account so H has to do it. Am I allowed to remind him of this?

It is hard for me to let go of some things because they either have to do with "business" or Mia and I feel someone has to be responsible...

H did say he would help me clean for Christmas. I didn't say a word and will not say a darn thing when the time comes, but he better help cuz it is his darn family who is coming here and I am doing it all -- hosting,cooking, cleaning, etc... And paying for it all, I will add. I did ask that he chip in for half of what I spend.

Alison, Just remember that you cannot "make" him do anything and he well knows it. It is futile to say that he "better help" - how are you going to enforce this? What will you do when he doesn't help, as you know he won't? Nag, complain, cry, rage? That's what he wants. How's that workin' for ya?

Start by asking them for nothing and expecting nothing from them.

Then move on to calling them on their behaviour.

Expect them to get worse as they keep trying to push your buttons and can't find the buttons anymore. They will get sadly predictable.

If he refuses to transer the cell phone bill to you, then you call up and get a new phone in your name only and have the bill sent to you. (I had to do exactly that several months ago.) Let him worry about the old bill. He refused to transfer it, remember? That makes it HIS problem. And SAY NOTHING ABOUT IT.
Mulan

Wow Mulan - you are right on the money. I can't enforce a darn thing. So I won't. And you are right on about the cell phone as well. I guess I will give him one week to get it done, and if it is not done, then I will go get my own phone...

How do I call him on his behavior. As I think Melly said, what do we say "you didn't take out the grabage" do it myself and then "have a nice day"... Isn't that sort of playing the martyr? I have a lot to learn about this, so bare with me...

I am still in the midst of reading your thread - wow that is a long one. And I am seeing quite a few similarities regarding H's behavior.

Thanks for you help.

Hi Mulan and Ali!

So I have another example that I have questions about. My H is real big on-I feel like you guys don't want me around. What is that? One minute he's you guys don't want me around and the next he's you guys want me around too much. How do I respond to that?

When he does do something do I acknowledge it or act like nothing happened? Should I really be praising him for doing things now-won't he just then stop doing things because he isn't creating the drama he's so inclined to create?

What do I do when he decides he'd like to snuggle? Thats another thing he likes to use as excuse-I didn't clean because I was trying to be close to you. But then he'll get upset because I want to spend time with him and he wants to watch a game or whatever. He likes to use the things I don't like to throw in my face i.e-you get mad when I want to do something else besides be with you. Which I don't but that doesn't matter I guess. Although it does irritate me when he whines about not having time with me and then whines because I wnat to spend time with him.

Before going further, let me ask each of you:

What are your husband's top Emotional Needs? Did you do the EN questionnaire with him?

What is his opinion of POJA?
Mulan

I have brought up the EN questionnaire last year, ut he never did it. Also - no POJA either...

Some more questions about how I handle certain things:
1.) H has not paid child support nor alimony since April when he got laid off by his company. Also failed to pay mortgage on home where DD and I live. How to handle that one?

2.)What does one do when the guy is caught in a very simple lie. Just tell him, I do not appreciate you lying to me, it hurts, then walk away??

3.) Like Melly's H, mine also calls throughought the day to either chat or vent about work - oh yeah - he is the victim there as well. How do I handle this? Answer the calls and enable him to treat me like a doormat. Or not answer calls at all.

The reason I ask these questions is because I am being manipulated by my H. H left me for another woman who he still says is just a friend. when I asked him to give up the friendship for sake of our M - he said NO... Just trying to do 2 things I guess:
1) Decifer if I do want to be married to him - major trust issues, etc...
2) Figure out how to "cope" with him since we will always be in each others lives because of DD...

Thanks Mulan!!!

You can do the EN questionnaire for him. Just fill it out as best you can. And P/A people are massively resistant to the POJA. My H would snarl, "That feels like control! I'm not giving you veto power over my life!"


You don't handle this. You call your lawyer. Today. Now.


Please see below. You have far bigger problems to deal with here.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


So - tell me again why you are not in Plan B??? Would you advise your DD to live like this? And I'll bet my last dollar you're still having SF with him - aren't you.
Mulan

Oh dear Mulan. We are no longer having SF... but we did a month ago. I have not had the strngth to do plan B because he bullies me and uses DD as a pawn. He lives 20 minutes away from us and visits Mia here at my house.

Lawyer has been contacted, but can't do anything about the money thing. She said if he has no money, we can't get any money from him, but she said once he starts making money again, that we can go after him for his back payments (which total about 25K)...

I have tried hard to not be available and go dark, but I get manipulated back into it again. He always calls and I have asked him to stop... But he won't stop. I don't know how to handle it without being percieved as a B*tch... I guess that shouldn't matter, what do I have to lose at this point, right...

I would NEVER want Mia to live like this. And I have brought this up to H in the past. How would he feel if Mia's H did this to her. His responce was, "I would stay out of it. It is their business to handle"... Well, I call bs on that b/c I can guarantee you that if any man hurts this little girl in any way, my H would flip out and kill him...

Mulan, how can I do this plan B thing. I am weak and very vulnerable right now. I just lost my mom to cancer, am afraid to be alone (lonely). I have been accepting his "crumbs" for so lung, I guess I have gotten used to it, but I know darn well, that I deserve better...

OMG - this isn't even my thread... Melly I am so sorry. I truly am. I am totally monopolizing Mulan and your thread. I unfortunately cannot get onto General II - it comes up as error and I have contacted Tempest, but still I cannot post a new thread...

Ali please do not apologize-this is sooo helping me too. Your Q's are my Qs. My H is in no way willing to have a POJA. He too was going to move out for his "just" friend but her b/f blew their relationship out of the water 2 days before he was supposed to. My H currently still lives with us but I believe its only because he doesn't have OW waiting and he likes to keep me on eggshells. This way he can tell me he doesn't know whether hes staying or going and I get to keep living in limbo which he knows is killing me. Its like his own version of ****** for me. Sometimes I wonder what it is he believes the kids and I did to him as he seems to want to hurt us for some reason. He is not in for the ENs Q&A. But his EN that he talks about comes down to me basically being on call for him 24/7. Basically he wants time with me when he wants and thats it. He also feels I should support and just keep my mouth shut about everything he wants. His family and I do not get along as they openly detest me and he would like me to apologize for making it hard on them and him. Although I never said or did anything that was not nice to them.

Alison, you are only feeding his behaviour and feeding his affair by allowing this to go on. You don't "ask" a WS to leave you alone so you can go to Plan B; it's something you have to do yourself.

Your nightmare will never end unless you can get it together and put a stop to this.

Have you read everything on this site - not just the message boards, but on the rest of the site - about Plan A and Plan B?

Have you read *Surviving An Affair*?

You can start with those two things. There are also some threads here by BW who are in Plan B and they are doing a great job. Lunamare's thread has been active today. You can read that one and the others.

The point is - You are failing to protect yourself from his emotional abuse and you are failing to protect your daughter as well. Hope is not a plan. Things will only get worse and he will use you more and more unless and until YOU do something about it.

Please look at some of the sites and books and threads that I suggested and let us know what you think.
Mulan

melly - why do you want to be married to this man? Kids aside - why?
Mula

Hi Ladies, well Melly are things hopeless for us? What are we fighting for anyway. Seems to me we are fighting for the wrong person... The person we should be fighting for is ourselves.

To answer your question Mulan, well, I am going to unfirtunately have to wait until after Holiday to do this,(excuse maybe) but I an hosting our families here at my house since it is Mia's first real Christmas...

Yup - I didn't want to do it, but I got bullied yet again. H wants it to appear as though we can be friends and ahppy little family, and I have played along the whole time...

I have been trying to get my proverbial sh*t together for about a year now. Plan Aing my butt of to no avail... Just more cake eating on H's part. And me playing the enabler. What fun that is...

I have read both Plan A & Plan B and did pretty good with only a couple slips during Plan A. Have never really tried to plan B yet, as I feel it is too difficult. How do I even begin. I know I am suppose to write a letter, but I just sincerely do not even know what to say.

I think it just a matter of me holding my ground and being strong - for once in this mess... Going to go look at BW's thread right now...

I don't know if I do to answer your Q Mulan. I think I just keep hoping the man I fell in love with will reappear. I know its stupid-I feel like a fool most of the time. The thing is-I was once asked on this board whether or not I'd stay with him if not for financial reasons and I don't think I would. I have 4 kids to take care of from 10 yrs-4 mos and I'm a sahm. I love it and I don't want to give that up. The lawyer I spoke to says I'll probably have to go back to work since we've only been M for 6 yrs. Do you have any advice?

Hi Melly, it's me Alison222. Had to change my account info cuz account was messed up...

How are you today?? Nothing new to report on my end. Just trying to figure out how in the world I can do a good plan B...

How are the kids??

Hi Ali!
Kids are good for now but H says he's moving out for sure on Jan 15. This is all so overwhelming. I'm soo scared. I know him leaving is probably for the best but it still hurts. I don't know how we are going to manage as I do not work and have 4 kids. I guess it'll all fall into place right? How did you do it with your H. It's so hard because when he's not around I think I love him we can work but then he comes home and I think I don't think I even love you anymore. Do you ever feel this way or am I just pathetic?