I miss WAT

he refered to the "fog" as moose brain worms <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

and he refered to the adulterous as abducted by aliens

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT <~~~ such a guy!

Pep

I will use that rational for now on. When I screw up, I will say I was in a FOG. LOL, it just doesnt make sense to me.

OK. Your ex had and continues to have a destructive lifestyle. She's a bad person.

So. How did you miss that relevent bit of information as you oh so considerately and soberly weighed your marriage options?

If you screwed up and kbew you were screwing up and that it was gonna hurt and did it anyway I would say you were being foolish, maybe a jerk...certainly sane though.

If you screwed up with the full expectation that the choices you were making were going to deliver positive results *I* might consider the possibility that you were dealing with some mental illness.

Think about the Jim Jones situation. Did all the crazy people just line up and congregate for a group suicide or were there other elements involved that created a situation in which formerly sane functional people were willing to voluntarily drink poison and feed it to their children then lie down in neat rows to wait? What do you think they were waiting for?

I will use that rational for now on. When I screw up, I will say I was in a FOG. LOL, it just doesnt make sense to me. [/quote]

You are still not listening, SO. The fog is *NOT* a "rationalization," but an EXPLANATION. You are still not discerning the difference between EXCUSE and EXPLANATION.

Pep, I agree whole heartedly.
not only do WS's say the dumbest things, they contradict themselves over and over again. sometimes within a few second of making one ridiculous statement. Now my WS used to be an intelligent person. recently we had a verbal exchange re: boundaries. very calm and controlled in nature. I thought we succeeded in hearing ea. other. then 5 seconds after end of conversation WS got a text mess from OP, and turned to pick up the phone to reply. DUH, now my WS never used to be so stupid, stupid, stupid. I think they all need a frying pan to the head. Obviously, each WS in the "fog" acts similarly. but the fact of the matter is, even though they inhabit the same body, and are the same person, the changes they are going through make you feel like you have never met this person. I like the analogy of the "fog" because it hits home for me. and validates me. in a nut shell. I am living with my WS but the person I see in front of me is a stranger.

Noodle, I am not sure I get the difference b/t excuse and explanation....help

Hate to say it, but I think what we have here (an what many of us are in stark denial of) is that most adulterers are FIRST-TIMERS.........at getting caught....that is.

I think it is simple bafoonery to believe that the great majority of people here are here because of 1st (one) time adulterous affairs that occur in the setting of a previously fabulous relationship. I think that is what alot of people try to make it out when they use the "FOG" and "Alien" concepts to EXPLAIN everything horrid their WS does. Some MUCH more than others. I think the BS is often at much HIGHER risk of "rewriting the history" of the marriage than the WS. These WS are made into almost Saints that were somehow "coerced" by Satan himself to do these dastardly deeds. This is what I think the Original Poster was getting at in starting this thread. I happen to 100% agree.

I think we can wrap "it" up any way we like, give it fancy terms, and nice sounding explanations....but it is what it is. I think MANY people here use whatever words and phrases they can to justify to themselves what they are ALLOWING in their lives.

My opinion only...could be wrong.

Lem

edited for clarity

wow. really? Look up the words in www.dictionary.com

Fog State Definition: Euphoric state of love built on fantasy, which totally blinds the Wayward Spouse and then allows total justification of every conscious and selfish act they commit.

I think some here do use the fog to rationalize WS behavior, but most don't. The MB program sure doesn't. Only the professional victims [and we sure do seem to have alot of those here] do this so they won't have to be bothered with silly things like boundaries, etc.

Whatever label anyone wants to put on it, there is no excuse for an affair that should be acceptable to any thinking, rational person.

As a recovering alcoholic I can tell you that I very much relate to the screwed up, fogged out mentality of a WS. It is exactly like that of a practicing addict.

I wouldn't agree that most WS here are serial cheaters. Not that there are any statistics, but the serial cheaters seem to be the minority, IMO.

I don't think people who are not in the fog, can understand being in the fog. I don't think people who are not in the fog are as prone to walk away from their spouse, their kids, their carears, their churches, and their reputations.

People clouded in the fog do those things, and that is why Dr. Harley takes such a radical approach to disrupting the affair to help the WS see the damage they are doing. It is like taking someone out of a cult, they can't see how deep they are in.

I am really mystified by those who reject the existance of the fog. How can it be that you don't SEE the WACKED OUT, LOONEY thinking of our typical WS? Do y'all REALLY not see that??

Do you not see how sick and abnormal it is? I just can't believe that you can't see it.

Well...again, it is alot of perception. At what point do we call someone a "serial cheater"? A man who has three False recoveries with his wife (and OW) is NOT considered a serial cheater, but a man who has two different affairs separated by 3 years IS????? At what point is FOG no longer the EXPLANATION...... for the behavior? Again, I am not using the word excuse...I use different standards for cheating (serial or not) and maybe that is why we may have such different opinions on this.

What I call serial cheating, is called FOG behavior by many others. I have seen some pretty horrid behavior by WS EXPLAINED away by "it was the fog" or it "was an alien"..."it wasn't really him" deciding to get the STD, or him getting putting us into repeated finanical turmoil, or him losing his job, or him crashing the car into the garage while he was drunk.......

I agree, there is some definite validity to the term "fog"...and for some it does correctly apply...A man who has an affair on his wife is not rationally understanding the risks he is putting himself IF HE GETS CAUGHT. He simply can't be thinking rationally.......BUT that "get out of jail card" gets used MUCH too often here......Again, just my opinions and my own personal perceptions....not the rule or fact by any measure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Lem

I'm going to use the same two words I used just todfay in Heartsores thread.

2 words explains it all: ARRROGANT ENTILEEMENT! It is present,IMHO, in every A. Call it fog, or as Mel would say "a bolney sandwich, it still boils down to 2 people full of arrogant entilement.

My 2 cents,
Jerry

Fog is a term used here to describe the overall "Behavior". It in no way should be used as a reason or excuse. To do so would profoundly diminish the cheating spouses' responsibility for destroying their family and marriage.

Using the "fog" as a get out of jail free card is lunacy. The fog is not intended to EVER be any such thing and no one has presented it as such. It EXCUSES NOTHING. Just because a person is fogged out or whatever does not mean they didn't know right from wrong and didn't make a fully informed BAD CHOICE. They are ALWAYS 100% responsible for their choices.


A serial cheater is someone who has serial affairs. A man who had 3 false recoveries in the same affair is in a LONG TERM AFFAIR. He had false recoveries because his affair never ended. A serial cheater has multiple affairs and is usually addicted to AFFAIRS. This is not so in other affairs where the WS is addicted to the PERSON.


And you have also seen NUMEROUS such rationalizations and bullcrap TORN APART by fellow board members, ain't ya? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

p.s. I want to clarify that I don't believe that all WS' are fogged out. Some are just cheating because they either have character issues and/or are serial cheaters. It is just a WAY OF LIFE for them.

I usually stay pretty quiet on this board, but this topic struck a cord with me. I was the one who was an alien during my A. I can also understand the reasonings of "fog" issues. In all my years of posting and reading on the MB forums, I rarely see those who are truly wishing to recover refer to their WS as being "in a fog" as an excuse. I have, however, seen a few WS post here IN THEIR FOG! One in particular, who has broken free of her fog, is McBecca! If you wish to see a true example of what a "fogged out" WS says and does, look at her original posts. She couldn't see what she had right in front of her face for her "fog". As for the alien comment, I can distinctly remember that during my A, there were times that I would do a double take in the mirror, because I didn't recognize the person looking back at me! I can clearly remember the face that I did see seemed evil on the inside, even though the outside features were always the same. There was something about the reflection that struck me, and pretty hard too. Have I ever used that as an excuse? NEVER!!!!!!!! I have taken full responsibility for my actions, and the pain and suffering that it caused in the process. We didn't impliment MB principles right away. But, we have since then, and believe you me, they have proven their worth over and over again!

Another way to describe the fog state, which has already been mentioned, is that the person can't really comprehend what their actions are doing to those who truly matter around them. Hense, the description of "fog". Have you ever driven in a very thick fog? You can't see 2 feet in front of you, right? Well, that's often what's happening when the WS is still full force in the A. AND, when you, the driver, turn on your lights to try to illuminate, it just reflects off the fog, making it that much harder to see. That's where the BS can become that lighthouse and guide them back home.

The only time in 6+ years on these boards that I've seen it used as an excuse is by the WS who is still in the A, whether they wish to admit it or not. Coming from someone who lived in that fog, it's NOT an excuse, but the best way to try to explain what is going on in the WS's mind during the A. AND, unless you are willing to listen or have lived it PERSONALLY, it's hard to understand. I don't know how many times or ways it needs to be said before you comprehend what is being said, but that's the best way I can explain how the term is meant, and how I understand it, when I see it here.

[color:"blue"] ((( [/color] [color:"red"]Tigger [/color] [color:"blue"] ))) [/color]

To me, the term "fog" is little more than a euphemism for a thought process completely dominated by emotion. Dr. Harley has said that angry outbursts are bouts of temporary insanity; you've allowed your emotions to overcome your ability to reason.

Who would argue that most WS's aren't doing exactly this; allowing their emotions to overwhelm any rational thought?

Cheaters not only risk their marriage and their financial well being, they frequently risk their children's emotional health. Is this normal behavior? Only in the eyes of somebody deeply infatuated with an OP.

When we see someone we know and love exhibit behaviors that seem inexplicable and totally incompatible with what we know about them, we either have to question their sanity or our own.

The "fog" is just a label for something about human nature that we don't fully understand. Sure, we can talk about brain chemistry from a purely scientific point of view, but we like to think of ourselves as being more than the sum of our parts, or the product of whatever amino acids happen to be coursing through our head at any given moment.

Over and over again I read stories of people who cheat on their spouses, show little or no remorse, make excuses for their behavior, and continue pursuing the OP until the affair burns itself out. They trash their marriages; they give little or no thought to the pain they cause others; they attempt to justify behavior in themselves they once found appalling in others.

You could sit them down and show them a thousand case histories demonstrating how affairs ruin lives, how they almost always fit the same self-destructive pattern, and how few of these so-called soulmate relationships ever last, and still they would swear their particular love affair is unique!

Calling it "fog" doesn't excuse any of this, it merely recognizes that in most cases this is an aberration of the behavior we once came to accept as normal before the affair.