I do wonder a bit about those "unavailable" phone calls that appear to go unanswered. You have mentioned that he is a business man. Many people have cell phones that are listed as "unavailable". Why would he not return these calls? Does he say why he does not return them?

Have you and he been able to figure out what created the environment for him to make the choice to meet needs by having an emotional affair? Have you been in counseling? It is hard for me to know from reading your posts if you and he are still just processing all this or if he is still of a somewhat wayward or cake-eating mindset. Mulan mentioned to you earlier that she thought that he was still of a wayward mindset. It is too early for him to expect you to stop checking up on him. It is reasonable that you continue to monitor his behaviors.

Hopefully others who are more experienced at dealing with the wayward mindset like Mel and Mulan will wade in here for you.

I know that much of what you say sounds familiar to me. I have had a hard time hearing and feeling my H's love for me. I am not sure what that is all about. Possibly just that I began protecting my emotions from him when I knew he was lying to me a lot for several days after D day. I know I want more from my H even though he is trying to be a good H. My days are getting better and I am feeling much better. I hope things work out for you.
Lake

Please go back and read my post to you on this thread. Every word of it still holds true. Your husband has not changed his mindset at all. He is still wayward but since he got caught, he's trying to throw you crumbs to shut you up and get you off his back. And since of course that doesn't work, he's angry and frustrated because you've spoiled his fun.

You will have to make the choice as to whether you want to live with a man who is determined to treat you like you're his mommy rather than his respected life partner. Mommy stays home and does her son's laundry and would never think of interfering with his dates. And that's what he wants you to do, isn't it?

He is almost certainly still cheating or he would not be hiding his life from you the way he is.

Have you read *Love Must Be Tough* by James Dobson? His basic theory is that people cheat because they have no respect for their partners. Your husband clearly has no respect for you. He's learned that if lying and hiding don't work, he can bully you into backing down and shutting up. And it works every time, doesn't it?

Please read that post again.

I will add one more thing: Your husband is not asking you for "privacy". He wants "secrecy".

Privacy = I'm going to take a shower, or take a nap, or use the toilet. You'll know what I'm doing; I'll just be alone while I'm doing it.

Secrecy = I'm doing stuff that I don't want you to know about.

There is a place for privacy in a marriage.

Secrecy WILL destroy that marriage every time.

Please read that post again.
Mulan

Lake and Mulan,

I went back and read some of your posts. I'm still apparently doing a lot of things wrong. When the pain is overwhelming, I crumble and go to him for help. I usually immediately end up worse than I started and then shortly after, he will hold me and sometimes apologize. But the apology is only for upsetting me. I have such a difficult time avoiding this. I don't know what to do with my emotions when they reach this level. It is usually at night and I can't just call someone. I need to figure out how to better channel my thoughts when they head this direction.

I'm also terrible at being "happy" and "carefree" when I'm crumbling inside. I see how this can change his focus to me instead of being completely comfortable that I am everywhere I'm supposed to be when I'm supposed to be so why bother paying much attention to me at all.

He admitted to me that during the A (and likely prior to that) he lost feelings for me. We had drifted apart for years due to arguing and both of us thinking we were right. I lost feelings for him as well. The communication has always been a problem due to his temper. His feelings are that "we weren't talking" and that contributed to the A, which he sometimes believes was not an A because they "just talked". Well, I honestly tried and tried to discuss our problems and I was always left being blamed for everything. I changed my approach and accepted fault for some things and told him of other things that needed to be fixed. He always thought (and does again) that he's doing everything he can. Basically, he does everything he wants to do, sometimes plus a little more, and thinks that if I request more that what he's doing is "not good enough". Now I try to praise the good efforts more to not only get rid of that excuse but possibly to encourage more good things.

I flip flop back and forth about counselling because the couple times I went for other issues was a complete waste of time. I am leaning more toward it however. My H was willing to go and still is. We'll see.

Last night, I came home and he suggested that we go to this place we've been before where we rode a 4-wheeler down a trail through the woods to a river and brought a bottle of wine. Last time, it was very romantic and we had a great time. We did it again last night, but I still had a lot of pain from the last several days and I tried to push it aside. We had a good time except that his focus became sexual while we were there. That causes me to be resentful because what I want is for him to show that he has a good time with me and enjoys being with me and this makes me feel that he could be buttering me up so he can have sex (not the same as making love in my opinion). This is another frequent past problem because we could not be getting along for quite some time but he would be very attentive when he wanted sex. Now I can't tell the difference between if he's enjoying being with me and that's a part of it or if he's working me. When I've discussed this with him, he gets angry and blames me for accusing him of only wanting sex.

I never know his intentions any more. I am suspicious of everything and am afraid to let go and enjoy the moment for what it is if it really is genuine. I can't tell! I feel that if it were genuine, I'd be able to tell.

Should I now start to play it cool and act as if everything is great? I just asked him last night about making a weekly plan as to what obligations we had, when there was time for us, setting some goals, discussing whether we had succeeded or failed in our goals and how to improve. Is this a bad idea right now or should I try it first?

P.S.
About the unavailable calls, they seem to be unanswered and no number appears. Not sure what to think so I've just been watching.

So -

I have two suggestions:

1) Please learn about Plan A. Really, really study it. You are floundering in confusion and getting nowhere because you have no plan. No, you should not "play it cool and pretend everything is great." It's *not* great, is it? Do you want your WH to believe it is so he can be comfy going on just like he is? How's that working for YOU?

Read this entire site - not just the message boards. Especially read everything on Plan A. And read "The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A" which was written a Pepperband, a member here, and which I think was already copied to this thread.

2) You are desperately trying to regain your husband's love, but he cannot love you when he doesn't respect you. What can you do, instead, to first regain your husband's *respect?* Focus on earning his respect, and his love will follow - but it's never the other way around.
Mulan

"He has told me before that he just wants me to let him be himself. I think what this means is that he wants to go back to where weekends consist of him going about his business without me like he used to and where no one checks on his e-mail, phone calls, etc. He wants all of the pressures off of himself and is impatient with the fact that I still have periods of insecurity that need his reassurance."

How are weekends now? Is there a plan set up for the weekend? This used to be a problem between my FWH and me, since our early times together.... I would look out the window and see him working on some project that I did not know was part of the weekend activity. I would feel out of sync and out of sorts. I used to try to establish a plan or at least get him to tell me what he intended to do with the day. This did not always go well and he would state words to the effect that he felt controlled.

Now, since the EA, he understands that it is a team effort and that he needs to plan with me for the weekend so that we are a team. He actually feels more comfortable himself if he knows there is joint agreement and a plan in place--big change.

He said you and he drifted because you were not talking to each other?? Well, how is that going now? Is he able to talk to you about his day? Are you saying he has conversations with women that he does not tell you about? I don't like the sound of this.

He does sound like he has a wayward mindset--an independent mind set. He approaches other people with joy and a smile--but he does not approach you in that manner?

Mulan is right, you need a plan. How could you change your pattern of interaction so that you could see joy and a smile on his face when he approaches you?

I don't know if I am looking at this right and I think Mulan would be a better judge of that--she said you need to get respect from him and love will follow, never the other way around. So I am not certain if my focus on that look of "joy and a smile" is the right place to start.

It just seems so easily measurable though that I thought you might want to think about behaviors that might lead to that look on his face that you'd like to see in response to you.

After 5 months, I’m back. We are in our 10th month since D-day and things have improved but the roller coaster rides have not stopped. We seem to have a recurring problem over spending time together. IMO we should schedule “our time” first even if we don’t know what we’re going to do together, and then other things should be planned around that (if possible). IHO, we should just let things fall where they may. When the weekend comes, we would do the things we have to do and then if there is time, we do something for us – or if there isn’t something he has to do, then we would do something together. I think that method will lead us right back to where we were and it is extremely hurtful to me to be put last. He insists that he puts our marriage first, but this is how he wants to do it. He doesn’t see the need to plan anything.

He has remained affectionate, calls me every day when I’m at work, and tells me he loves me every day. We bowl together on Monday nights and he is usually home in the evenings. We do things together but it doesn’t always qualify as “us” time IMO. This is also where we differ. He thinks that if we’re in the same room, one cooking dinner, the other watching t.v. or working on something, then it is “us” time. Bowling is definitely something we enjoy doing together and I do think it counts as just that, doing things together. But it’s different from “us” time. I believe that “us” time is where we are alone and are able to focus on each other – a picnic at the park, a walk, dinner with just the 2 of us, sitting on the deck having a glass of wine, etc. The only thing we do any more like that is go to dinner. That’s just about all we did together before the EA so it doesn’t feel special or different. He gets annoyed with me when I explain to him the difference in being in the same room together and having “us” time. He acts as if just being home together qualifies and that I should be satisfied. He said again this week that he’s doing everything he can and I’m never satisfied. He said he doesn’t think our M will work because no matter what he does, it’s not good enough.

This is why he becomes so angry when I try to discuss weekend plans. Sometimes he’s okay with making plans and his “to do” list is never brought up. But then out of the blue, one week (such as this one), he’ll blow up about how he can’t get anything done and I knew about everything he wanted to do and I want him to spend every minute with me. I can’t begin to tell you how hurtful that is, but I’m sure some of you already know. It makes me feel like he thinks he has fulfilled his obligation for the month and now it’s his turn to do what he wants without having to worry making time for me. Since the EA, I often feel that he feels that he has to do things with me or I will get mad and that it’s not because he is planning it because he wants to spend time with me.

When I read other posts, the things he does aren’t close to what other WS’s who are truly committed to making it work are doing. I see them making all decisions together, doing romantic things, the WH sending the BW flowers, things like that. The last romantic thing he did for me was before Valentine’s Day. I had to ASK that we do something romantic this past weekend. He wanted to plan to go to a nice restaurant. All he can plan is dinner. I told him nicely that it didn’t have to be dinner and made a couple easy, inexpensive suggestions. He then came up with a dinner cruise because it’s on the water and he knows I like that. Okay, fine. I was happy with that plan even though it still focused on dinner. He didn’t attempt to make reservations until the day before and was then unable to get reservations at this place and another. So the next day, at 5:00 we still had no plans. We were tired from our earlier individual obligations and nothing romantic was ever planned. That was last weekend and I’ve already told you about this weekend.

I see our life slipping back to the way it used to be. I’ve made it clear that I will not live like that again. When I am so deeply hurt, he sees it as anger, no matter how many times I have explained it. He tries to make up by apologizing and making peace, but he does not change his opinion or his actions about anything. He seems to have this limit to what he’ll do, even if I tell him that there are other things I need as well. He says there is ALWAYS something else. What he won’t see is that it is the same things over and over that he refuses to do because he thinks he’s doing enough and that’s that.

Any advice for either of us? Even if he won’t listen to it, I’d still like to share any advice you have for him. I have tried so hard to follow the advice of others but my sensitivity often gets in the way and I become weak. If I can't change that, am I wasting my time?

So Lost,

It takes courage to fight for your marriage and you certainly have that. I don't know what to suggest to get your H to Want to make plans to spend time together.

One comment: When you went out into the woods and he wanted to have sex? ******, that's love! Sex for men is Romance. Okay? He enjoyed your company so much that he wanted to embrace you. Please don't let your perception of Romance spoil that for you.

Do you guys live in a neighborhood where you can go for walks after dinner? If so, ask him to join you. You need his protection - get it? He is the big strong guy, and you are trying to stay healthy by walking after dinner. Honey, please, just around the block a few times.

And nothing about how it is "working on the marriage" - don't make it a project. And no Relationship talk on the walk. Even if you don't talk, you are together.

Reasoning with him about your feelings and explaining won't make him change his mind. It's not about the intellect; it's not finding the right argument or the right words right now. What you have is, your husband is still there, he is still trying. His trying is not according to your or the Harley's plan, but you still have a marriage.

He should be rights encourage you to talk, explain, vent. But he isn't doing that. I don't think it's going to happen by your pushing for it. Your recovery might be slow, but these things all take their own time.

(((((((((((so lost))))))))))

Recovery takes time. Good luck.

Bellevue, thanks for your suggestions. I'll keep trying. I can have a great attitude and let a lot of things roll off, but when he makes these cutting, hurtful comments, and they're not just comments - he is usually yelling, I feel like I've been knocked back down the ladder. I am trying so hard to rebuild a better life for us because we both let it go before the EA. It's hard to just sit back and let things happen by themselves. I'm impatient because I have been unhappy for so long (prior to EA too) and I thought that once we started on the right track, we could make it so much better.

He's always been content to work, eat, sleep and hunt. I asked him recently what he wanted in a wife. He said someone to be by his side. A dog could fill my shoes. That's pretty depressing and the reason I try hard one day and want to give up the next. I don't really know how long to give it.

While he was having the EA but I had not yet discovered it, I tried and tried to talk about our problems but his anger came to the forefront each time and we never got anywhere. So I felt like I was always just waiting for things to get better. I refuse to wait for the rest of my life to be happy. I feel like I should set some kind of deadline but I know 10 months isn't necessarily a long time. It feels like a lifetime.

I'm trying to find things to do with other people on the weekends but other people are busy and often aren't available. I feel lonely doing everything by myself. At a time when I feel like my H doesn't care, I need SOMEONE to care but everyone has their own lives. It's hard carrying around so much pain every day and trying to push it to the back so I can get past it. I don't think it will ever go away but I'm still trying to make it manageable every day and not just some days.

Well, I'm back after almost a year. The roller coaster ride continues. Progress is slow. I need help. I need to know if I am impeding our progress because of my still fragile feelings.

I get upset at the following:

-H comes home a couple hours later than I expected.
-H clears a spot for me to sit next to him in his truck, but instead of asking me to sit by him (which would make me feel nice), he says "the spot's clear if you want to sit there" and shrugs his shoulders. (I feel like this indicates "I don't care if you do or you don't")
-I leave love note cards for H, draw H a bath with candles, write I love you on the bathroom mirror, leave love notes attached to a candy bar, yet I never get anything like that from him.
-I ask H why he doesn't do romantic things for me any more like the time he had dinner ready when I came home with candles and wine. He said that he cooks dinner for me but it just doesn't have the candles. (I felt completely blown off.)
-As H is giving me a really nice hug, I tell him that I would really like for him to put those hugs into words from his heart some time, yet he never does. I do sometimes get the same 2 phrases - I love you very much and I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I want something much deeper, even if it's the same words but coming with passion from the bottom of his heart.

He gets upset at the following:

-I say I need to talk about something bothering me. He says "what did I do now".
-I get the first sentence out when trying to resolve an issue. He immediately upset or angry and defensive and remains that way till the end. This happens each and every time.
-When I tell him that I would like to be ASKED to go some place with him instead of saying "you're welcome to go if you want".
-When I bring up any problem that I need to talk about, he says "there's always something", "I'm doing EVERYTHING I feel I should do to make this marriage work".

There are plenty of good things he does and we do have a lot of good days. These are just some of the issues that we can't get past. What are we doing wrong?

HI,

I went back and read some of the posts in your threads. I really think you should call the Harleys for some marriage coaching. It is hard for me to tell what is going on in your relationship with your H. His EA was lengthy and the OWH's was never told of the EA, although you tried to tell him.

I just think that what you describe is not a marriage where both of you are working on recovery. It could be that you are committing love busters that are very irritating to your H. Yet, it also seems as though he is not providing you with care and protection.

It just seems as though the two of you need to take a look at your list of emotional needs and how well they are being met, what love busters you are both committing, and it also seems as though there may still be some private behavior on the part of your H (the 100 dollars hidden in the wallet, his anger with your looking at his cell phone), his anger when you tell him you need to talk to him about something.

I think a couple of contacts with the Harleys would be well worth your while. From what you describe, the two of you seem somewhat stuck. I can't tell exactly what the problem is, but I bet Jennifer or another from the coaching service could help you out a lot. It sounds as though you may have the money to do this. What do you think?