I agree with Kayla. I would never suggest the idea of reasoning with an abuser, unless you were being held hostage. But if you have the option of walking away, utilize that choice! Abusers are not "reasonable" nor "rational". No amount of words or lists will provide the abuser with what he needs. He needs professional help, which is up to HIM to seek, not L2S. L2S is only responsible for herself and her daughter.

Wow, what an evening. I went to see my mom (in nursing home) and stayed w/her for awhile. She had another stroke on Wed and has some diminished use of her right arm and leg. So, stayed w/her about an hour; helped her get ready for bed and helped get her in bed, etc.

He kept calling while I was there.

When I left I called him back. He continued to rant and rave about how much he loves me and wants a chance. I was almost at the road to turn off and I know that the van I saw was his. I passed the road and turned in an the next. He drove by and started calling on cell.

I answered cell. Told him that I was going to church for the dinner for x pastor, All h*ll broke loose. He started cursing me, calling me nasty names, telling me what I could do with the OM and the x pastor. Said that he had given me all the chances he was going to give me. Said I needed to come get my stuff. Said he loved me but that it was over. Said he was going to OW's house tonight. Said that he hoped I had fun tonight because I was going to pay for it.

Said that I would pay dearly for hurting him again.

Just ranted and raved and called me names and made threats. Then...................

here it came...............

He was so tired of this life he was ready to pack it all in and check out.

He called me, cursing me out but asking me to call his brother. Said his brother and wife were at party and they got into argument. Brother was walking down road and he wouldn't answer cell and he had to find him. All the while he was cursing me out, he was asking me to help his brother!!! Wanted me to call him and help find him.

He called me to tell me he was going to the OWs. Just nasty, nasty, nasty.

Techie - I understand what you were saying about signs and the mixup Friday with the attorney. What would you call what happened this evening? On the one hand he loves me. On the other he confirming my decision. I did not curse at him or yell at him. But, I did tell him that we have 10 years of unresolved issues and that I'm too scared to try anymore. I don't want to wake up down the road and he's had another A or we still can't talk, etc.

I don't trust him and see no change in him in relation to the major issues.

l2s what I see here is you trying to reason with yourself because you will do anything rather than end this. Kayla Andy and Jennifer68 are correct. Please understand your husband will not change. Your life will only get worse with him.

L2S - a little bit of my history so you understand where I'm coming from...

I used to work in a psychiatric hospital. There are some mental illnesses that can so permeate the soul that there is no return. It's not a matter of will - it's that they're gone. It's kind of like having a parent with Alzheimers. They literally don't know who you are or what role you play in their lives.

There are other mental illnesses from which recovery can be a choice - for someone humble enough to recognize that they're sick. Your husband is not one of these individuals. And you lack the power to do that humbling. Only God can do that.

So please - remove yourself from this triangle - torn between the "good" persona and the "bad" persona. There is no "GOOD" persona in him now. The bad persona has taken over and only pretends to mimic the good persona in order to keep you engaged and holding the rope while he torments you and destroys your life - either psychologically - or - I'm afraid if he can't do that, he will escalate to physical harm.

I think you know this to be true - but you so want to "will" him better - you want that power, but it is not yours to use.

How do you think his soul will fare if you allow him to continue hurting you - possibly even endanger or take your life? Is this what you want?

I've been involved in the treatment of mentally ill people and the hardest hit by the illness is not the one suffering from it. Its the family members who remember what the person was like before the illness and keep trying to reach THAT person - when the illness has destroyed THAT person and left the imposter in its place.

I've personally witnessed "from the heart" how hard it is to take the steps I'm asking you to take NOW before it's too late. I've had my own moment of decision with a mentally ill family member - where psychiatrists and psychologists have sat me down and told me that the person I love could harm me some day.

So please know - I understand the battle within yourself. Please get some help for yourself and some protection for yourself to get through the coming days, weeks, months and possibly even years. But make the decision to get out of God's way and let God work with whatever willingness your husband might have to submit to Him - the only One who has power to restore him to himself. It's not up to you - and never has been.

I would say this is to be expected from a sick man.

he IS *sick*, but in the emotional sense.

If he were an alchoholic, and a "mean drunk"... would you not expect the same kind of behaviour from him?
periods of kindness, alternated with drunken rages?

Similarly, if you cared for such a man, would you just cut him out of your life forever? Or would you eventually say, "you are hurting me as a drunk. I cannot be around you like this: I will no longer live with you. If you pledge to not be a drunk any more, AND join AA, AND stay sober for [X] months, AND treat me better, then at that point, we can live together again".
In your case, "X" may be a fairly large number, for you to feel comfortable.

After 10 years of living with a mean drunk, many women would just say goodbye and turn their backs. It's understandable. But it's not the only choice. You dont have to live with the bad situation. But you can offer a *chance* of redemption to the alchoholic, if they choose to listen to it, and follow it faithfully.


you are right not to trust him. he should have to prove both his intentions, and his trustworthyniess, before you should ever trust him again.
But I dont think you have a right to expect change in him in "major issues", before you tell him that such changes can restore you together.

Tell me, "if you work 10 hour days for 6 days a week, for 5 years straight, and you will make 10 million dollars at the end of it", I would do it (if I didnt have family).
Tell me, "if you work 10 hour days... and you May or May NOT make 10 million dollars".. there's no way I'll put myself through that, for a "maybe". No way.


PS: just read kaylaandy's post. sobering words. I agree that it is not up to you to change him. But it is within your power to give him a reason to choose to change himself. After that.. it's up to him whether to make that choice or not.
He may be "lost"... I dont know, only God does. The important thing is what kind of situation would make you safe, until you have time to feel sure of it, one way or another.

To my mind, you have had plenty of "time", in a bad situation, but you have had zero time spent in fair evaluation of watching him to see if he is willing to change, once given the full and fair list of what is needed from him, and given an expectation of a reward for that change.
If you had told him what you needed when you separated, and he had been behaving this way for 2 years, I would agree that it seems hopeless. But that has not been the case, that I can see.


PPS: if you chose to give him the list, and honestly give him a chance to follow it, you will also need to change churches. To do otherwise, would be to sabotage the offer to him and ensure he will not accept it. I think you know this somewhere inside you, but you need to acknowlege it, rather than subtly sabotage the offer, IF you chose to make it.

Techie..

his brain is incapable of processing normally right now...

it does not have moments of lucidity..

it has victimization....poor poor me....inability to see anything as his own responsbility....inability to own self actions..

i n a b i l i t y

his brain CAN NOT function on any other level than paranoid blame and ranting and attention seeking....

she can not help him..

if he truly wants help he MUST get severe psychiatric help...and then and only then would life2 be able to engage and interact with him..

you realize she never had a OM...
never
she talked to some guy at church in the parking lot..

and he's had numerous affairs...

right there is enough...
to cut him loose...

he is not processing in his brain...

and alcoholics are not helped or saved by family members...they are helped and saved by treatment programs....

he is going to go ballistic before this is over...
because that is how his brain works...

until he chemically gets his brain stabilized..he will continue his rants of delusion...
this guy has my psyche radar so high up....

that I find him volatile at best....

he is out of control...

she can not be his reason...to change..
it plays right in to his world of choas..

if he fails he can blame her

people must change because they don't want to grown men calling their wives on the phone 24/7 ranting like a LUNATIC!!!!!!!

over
and
over
and
over
and
over...

she can't change that....

he is the only one...

ARK

paranoid & dangerous & unpredictable = get out of Dodge

heya ark.... I'd like to see if you would agree with a tweak on your sentence here:

Yes, [alchoholics, etc], need to choose to change in and of themselves. No-one else can MAKE them change. However, surely, others can be a *reason* for them to chose to change.

Do not people successfully quit smoking, etc "for the health of their children"?

Do not people successfully quit drinking, etc, so that they do not lose their wife and children?

The people involved make the choice by themselves; but the reason they do it, is because of others, is it not?

PS:


agree... AFTER giving him some reason to do so.


agree

but when some paranoid delusional person is convinced that there are purple monsters living in the southwest corner of your house... I'm guessing your best coping reaction to them is probably NOT to force them over there and convince them there is nothing there.. but rather, to keep them away from the southwest corner of your house.

(at least, until they're on meds or something, and can more calmly and rationally go explore that corner for themselves)

Techie - please be careful. You give voice to her deepest desires that somehow she COULD make a difference. But it her life you put in danger by doing so.

This isn't a rational human being anymore that L2S is dealing with. Once a dog catches rabies and the infection takes hold, the once friendly and trainable dog is beyond reach. It's time you read "Cujo"!

He needs to give HIMSELF reason to do so. It's NOT L2S's job. It's between her H and God, and that's it.

I'm sorry if I didnt make it clear, that I think she should most definately take steps to protect herself and her daughter, whichever path she chooses.

"He needs to give HIMSELF reason to do so. It's NOT L2S's job. It's between her H and God, and that's it."

maybe, or maybe not.
Offering him a reason, might be considered fulfilling the vow of "cherishing" your spouse. and/or love.

Trying to somehow "make", or "force" him to do so, would not be in the scope of marriage vows. But I think offering him something, might be.

It's no longer about cherishing a spouse, or love. It crossed that line long ago. It's about abuse. And the fact that L2S needs to protect herself and her daughter, despite his issues.

Techie,

People don't make permanent changes for OTHERS; they make them for THEMSELVES. Sure, caring and loving people take their loved ones into consideration; but, ultimately, they make their decisions for themselves.

For instance, a woman may try to lose weight to please her husband, but the best and most permanent outcome is when she decides to lose weight for HERSELF.

L2S's WH appears to THRIVE on keeping her in a state of upheaval. He doesn't understand the first thing about love; for him, it is all about control and keeping her under his thumb. He plays her like a fiddle, and you are doing nothing but helping him with your posts.

L2S, CHANGE your cellphone number. Stop calling him. Just get to the attorney's office and sign those papers.

If you DO talk to him, you stand firm and tell him that what you do is no longer any of his business. Then, hang up and turn your phone off. When he makes his threats, tell him that what he does is no longer any of YOU business. Then, hang up and turn your phone off.

If he follows you, call or drive to a police station and ask for help. If he blocks your path and forces you to stop, make sure your doors are locked and do NOT roll down your windows or get out of your car or go anywhere with him.

Arrange to have a law enforcement office go with you to retrieve the rest of your belongings.

Then, cut off all communication with your WH. But, be watchful and protect yourself and your DD. Get a RO, if you have to.

PLEASE protect yourself!

Techie -- she has already done this. She gave him time to stop his affairs...he chose to "cut down" on contacting THEM (plural!) and said that he "can't do anymore" to prove himself.

He is physically abusive. That is why the advice Kayla, Ark, and myself with others has been to get far far far away. Protect above all else. Its only been a couple of weeks since he last abused her -- and in this explosive emotional environment, its just a matter of time until it comes again. She should have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTACT with him. She needs to stop taking his phone calls and start protecting herself from further manipulations! He'll do anything, say anything to get into her proximity again.

PLEASE take precautions! PLEASE listen to Ark's advice!
Please.

Quote:
The people involved make the choice by themselves; but the reason they do it, is because of others, is it not?

No.

Never.

People make choices because of themselves ALWAYS.

100%

Noodle: You left out my examples, which give context to the "because of others". I guess I shouldnt have split that sentence into its own paragraph, to be clearer.

Now for your sentence:

"People make choices because of themselves ALWAYS."

I think that's a statement lacking information also. I'd say that it would be more accurate to say that people make choices, because the person doing the choosing wants something.

If that something is money, then they are making the choice "for (themselves to have) money."

If that something that they want is to be with another person, then they are making the choice "for (themselves to be with) another person".

Well, I'm thinking his choices (given by L2S), should be narrowed down to:

"Back off, or go to jail".

He left several VMs this morning begging for another chance. He said that he would do anything necessary. He mentioned apologizing to my family. He asked that I delay signing the papers and we could spend some time together, the two of us or w/my daughter, to see if we could make it work.

My D wants nothing to do w/him. She's fed up with both of us. Him for the way he treats her (some is deserved - she has a tendency to be a slob in the kitchen - some comes from knowing some of what he's done to me - she has been witness to some), me 'cause I can't move forward w/D.

Said he was mad last night b/c everyone was expecting things from him and he took it out on me.

I'm just tired of the whole thing.

Got to hear my old preacher this morning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It was awesome. He preached on God's will for our lives and how God allows adversity to pull us back to him, to strengthen us, to make us rely on him. He said '06 is at a close and we need to leave the past in the past and move forward to what God has in store for us.

I'm sad, really sad. I need to leave H behind. I need to close the door on that part of my life. I don't know what God has in store for me but, it won't happen while I'm so focused on and wrapped up in the drama that has been my life for the past 10 years.

Your daughter knows what to do now - as an observer, just like us. But unless you teach her by example to do the tough things for the right reasons, if she winds up choosing a guy like your husband, she will be as lost as you in the sea of emotions.

Please set the emotions aside. Take courage - do the right thing - for you, for her - and ultimately - for him. Sign the papers, change your number and move on with your life. It's a brand new year.