Kayla: i understand the use and need of shelter counsellors. That is why I took care to mention that they have their uses.
I know their background is, understandably, to err on the side of caution, and protect the abused from further harm. That is their "bias', and it is understandably so. I am just pointing out that it needs to be recognized.

nor do *I* claim to be unbiased. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> you put false words in my mouth there (perhaps unintentionally)


That may well be true. However, you did not answer my question, to L2S and others, of how a divorce would make her more "safe from harm' than a legal separation, if her husband is indeed an imminent threat to her.

I think I spelled out the legal implications of one form of safety - and most states do not have "legal separation" - I know mine doesnt and several others here who have explored that option.

Psychologically - for her husband, a divorce cuts the tie more than a legal separation will. His pattern has been to move on to another woman for his obsession once that tie is cut "permanently". Since he's already imposed 5 extramarital relationships on this marriage, one can only hope that he will do exactly that and move on. The pattern that endangers her regardless of divorce is if he doesn't "move on" to another obsession. If he doesn't, then L2S will have more work to do in getting a restraining order, and moving without leaving a trace where she's moved to in order to be safe. A legal separation leaves ties and opportunity for pursuit and contact in this event - not a safe thing for her.

Techie,
I went to a Christian counselor for about three months BEFORE much of what has happened actually happened. Her advice was to end it b/c of the abuse.

We both went to a Christian MC twice. At the second session the male counselor told my H that as a Christian and from a Christian perspective he had a greater degree of responsibility in the M. My H got mad and would not return.

We went to yet another male Christian counselor for 3 sessions. We met individually. We were to meet together for the first session when I found out that he was still having contact with the OW. I called the counselor and told him what happened. He said it didn't sound like he was too interested in working on the marriage. I cancelled the appointment; we never went back.

I went to a Christian counselor for about 3 months when I found out about the last A that I'm aware he had. Her advice was to D him b/c of the abuse.

All of them felt there was no hope for the R and that the abuse would continue.

hi L2S,
It shows the strength of your commitment, that you have tried all these marriage counsellors.

I'm wondering, though, whether an actual psychiatrist or psychologist would have more specific experience in attempts to treat this sort of thing. That's why I used those words specifically, in my suggestion.
I would not think that a "counsellor" would have experience or background in it.
To put it another way.... if I were having some kind of major psychiatric problems... I wouldnt go talk to Steve Harley about it. I'd go talk to a clinical psychiatrist.

This isnt the best example, but it's the closest "personal" one I have:
I was having painful foot problems once. went to my HMO general practitioner. He fumbled around for 5-10 minutes with my foot. couldnt even find the problem spot specifically, let alone what to do about it. Even with X-rays.
I finally go to see someone with specific experience in that area. It took him all of about 10 seconds to see something on the exact same x-ray, and about 20 seconds more, to find the specific spot on my foot giving me problems.


Also, you didnt answer the "legal separation vs divorce" issue <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Is it even an option in your state?

PS: a woman's shelter counsellor would never tell you anything different. That's kind of like asking a divorce lawyer whats the best way to recover your marriage. They both have their purposes, but it's important to recognize where they are coming from.
If you want an unbiased opinion, dont you think you should talk to a practicing psychiatrist or psychologist, who doesnt have a vested interest one way or another? (well, maybe they'd have a bias the other way. but even so... best to hear from 'both sides', I would think)


techie..

this is illogical at best...

there are thousands of divorce lawyers who advise clients to NOT terminate marriages...



divorces and physical violence are not equal...

just based on confidentiality laws alone in this country third parties can't discuss others medical psychiatric issues....

it doesnt' happen

what's she supposed to do..
go make an appointment with a psychiatrist...
pay the co-pay and blather on about how ILL and SICK her husband is and expect the doctor to write scrips and advise therapeutic interventions that life2 then gives to her husband.....

not gonna happen....

Life2 there is NO God given intervention coming down from heaven throwing fate in to your lap to keep you from signing...

there is no deep spiritual undertow pulling away from divorce..

you are human
you have lived with in a cycle of abuse for a long time
you like all of us...

are clinging to the known vs the unknown...

if anything is stopping you it's most likely the fear of escalating BIZARRE behavior and potential abuse...

which is reasonable
and
rational...

but all this other stuff....
people don't change just because they wait to feel like it..

most people who smoke quit because their knowledge of the need to quit for a multitude of reasons...certainly out weighs just FEELING like quitting.....

you don't have FEEL to sign the papers
you just have to do it.....

there is no divorce that can't be undone ...
if you want the religious stand you have and again TECHIE I am not sure why you linked
biblical grounds with wanting her to find a new man...

how about biblical grounds because God blesses such termination of aldultery...and it is he (her hubby) in a sense that divorced the marriage in Gods eye.....long ago....inspite of who signs some silly dotted line first....

So you do it....
you sign the papers ..

because you should for you and your childrens safety...

with proper things in place..

techie if GOD and her Husband want this marriage...then it is between God and her husband...and not hinging on anything life2...

HE is the key
He is the vessel...filled with hate and anger and sickness...
HE can heal him...

and he must do ALL the work...
it's simple...

that's not on life2 plate...
that's between him and God....

ARK

Techie - Actually, two of the counselors we saw together were both psychologists, both counseling from a Christian perspective.

Look, I admire your tenacity to keep your marriage together. I did this myself for a long time but, I firmly believe that my M was over the day I left home almost 3 years ago. I had tried to hold it together for years before that. I bit my tongue (not always successfully) and put up with cr*p for years. I just couldn't take any more. The physical stuff started after I left....

AFTER I LEFT. So did the 4 of the 5 affairs that I firmly believe he has had.

There wasn't a time I wanted to go back. I'm just having a hard time taking the final step. I want to and feel I need to. But, right now he's in the contrite mode and I'm having a hard time.

see L2S -- you're basing your actions off of him. Just because he is currently contrite, its stopped you from taking action you KNOW you need to.

Stop this co-dependent cycle!

L2S...just like Ark said. This does not by any means signal the end of your relationship. It simply ends the control of your life by him. Now its up to him to do the work necessary to be a good partner.

Techie, maybe you can direct God over to L2S's husband for some badly needed repairs and stop making her feel guilty. Her husband has manipulated her, and now you are too.

Get the peace you need so much L2. Your priorities need to be your daughter and your mother. WH is going to have to fend for himself, your plate is full.

In my opinion...

There is never a situation in which I am MORE likely to suggest AT LEAST a legal separation than one in which a person finds themselves UNABLE to enforce their boundaries in the marriage.

I see a great deal of REACTIVENESS from you L2S. A lot of emotionally driven decisionmaking. A lot of rationalization.

Based on what you have posted here there is no way that I could advise you to do anything BUT remove this man from your home and make him earn his way back in if he really wants to be there.

I would have to agree that suicide threats and physical abuse crosses some boundaries that really make it imperative that you have some legal protection in order because they are big red flag behaviors that this person is very unstable and does not presently recognize or respect boundaries protective or otherwise.

I guess I don't see much difference between a LS if they have them and a divorce...both accomplish the same goal...it's really up to you.

From a scriptural standpoint you do have the adultery out and are free to remarry..but I would strongly advise that you be agressive in seeking help for several years before allowing any sort of relationship to manifest or I would honestly expect to find you in the same boat with the same script and a new character.

People attract each other and fit together for a reason...you have to change your patterns in order to change the signals you are putting out into the world.

L2S,

So, now he shows contrition.

You back off the divorce.

He is once again in control of what you do. You have done exactly what he wants you to do. He knows that he can pull your strings - and he does it.

To see how contrite he really is, sign the paperwork and watch his reaction. It won't be contrition, guaranteed. But, you already know that, right?

He is only pacified when you do exactly what he wants. He is only sorry when you do exactly what he wants. He is only "good" to you when you do exactly what he wants.

That, L2S, is not a marriage, a relationship, nor is it anywhere to start one. It is him continuing his control, planning the next cycle of abuse.

I know this - I have lived it.



Now, I am going to ask you to ask yourself some really tough questions. I had to ask these to myself, once, a long time ago.

How much of your staying is based on the fact that you fear you can't change? Or, that if you do change, you would have to account for the changes to other people, and that would mean you would have to admit to the fact that you have problems within yourself that you need to address (and change!)?

How much of your staying is that you do not want to have to accept the fact that you have been in this abusive relationship - and you don't want to have to explain it to others? That saving it equals "saving face"?

Have you convinced yourself that you deserve what he has done to you?

I know that you see your own contributions to the problems - do you believe you have "forced" him to abuse you?

Is there something about this drama that you believe you would miss if you walked away? Does the attention generated from this drama that you get from friends and family fill an emotional need in you?

Do you believe that if you divorce him it makes you a failure?




Believe me, you will not heal if you stay with him. It only gets worse. And much more dangerous.

I only know what I know because I lived through an abusive relationship for three years. I left. The day I REALLY left, was the opening of the gate on the rest of my life. Truly - it set me free. The weight of the world lifted from my shoulders.



Schoolbus

Ark wrote...


absolutely not. I was only suggesting that she see someone with experience treating her husband's level of mental sicknness, ONE TIME, to get a professional prognosis on just how possible it would be for him to be rehabilitated.

It is not her responsability to treat him, or lead him through treatment. I was suggesting it as a potential way to feel more certain about what she is doing is the only thing left; that there really is no chance of rehabilitating him.

or on the flip side, if there IS a possibility, it is right that she know the truth about it, from a professional experienced in that area ,rather than making a decision based on faulty information that "there is no way he can get better".

There have been other wise things said on this thread recently, so I dont feel the need to write more, except for one observation:
I'll note that L2S still hasnt replied about whether legal separation is an option in her state, that I saw.

Schoolbus,
Answers to your questions.........

Now, I am going to ask you to ask yourself some really tough questions. I had to ask these to myself, once, a long time ago.

How much of your staying is based on the fact that you fear you can't change? Or, that if you do change, you would have to account for the changes to other people, and that would mean you would have to admit to the fact that you have problems within yourself that you need to address (and change!)? To the people that matter the most to me, they know that I have “issues”. They don’t really know why but know that I do. I do believe that I can change and it is something I desire greatly. For me changing would be to determine what my boundaries are, what attitudes and behaviors I am willing to accept and what I am not. I also need to change related to the way I lie to avoid conflict. I need to move beyond the sting of my past and realize once and for all that I am not who I was at 15. I need to allow God’s forgiveness to sink in. I have nothing to apologize to anyone else for.

How much of your staying is that you do not want to have to accept the fact that you have been in this abusive relationship - and you don't want to have to explain it to others? That saving it equals "saving face"?
Unfortunately, my family knows way too much about the situation. My H accuses me of being the one to tell everyone but he chose to make his latest affair known to his children, his cousins, his brother, etc. He was not discreet in any way. My sister found out through someone she has known for years but hadn’t seen for awhile. The friend mentioned the R that a friend-of-a-friend was in; she was talking about my H and the OW but had no clue.

Have you convinced yourself that you deserve what he has done to you?
No. I don’t think so. I do believe I deserve better. But, I guess you wouldn’t know it b/c I still remain attached.

I know that you see your own contributions to the problems - do you believe you have "forced" him to abuse you? No. I do not believe I forced him to abuse me. Those were choices he made. Nothing I did pushed him to be nasty, be abusive, threaten suicide or commit adultery.

Is there something about this drama that you believe you would miss if you walked away? No. Actually my life would be incredibly calm and very much less dramatic. I actually hate all the drama that surrounds my H.

Does the attention generated from this drama that you get from friends and family fill an emotional need in you? [/b]No. I actually try to avoid the attention and I seldom talk about it now unless someone else brings it up. We all steer clear of talking about the situation.[/b]

Do you believe that if you divorce him it makes you a failure?
This one’s hard. No, I don’t necessarily think it makes me a failure but, this is my second failed marriage. I know it takes two to make a M work but it does make me question my ability to have a successful marriage.



Believe me, you will not heal if you stay with him. It only gets worse. And much more dangerous.

I only know what I know because I lived through an abusive relationship for three years. I left. The day I REALLY left, was the opening of the gate on the rest of my life. Truly - it set me free. The weight of the world lifted from my shoulders.

techie..

I don't think your suggestion would work...
a psychiatrist won't advise or treat on second opinion..
it would take an official diagnosis codable in the book of codable psychiatric diagnosis upon the meeting x number of criteria.....

infact if you or I or anyone went to a psychiatrist with a story of our spouse and how sick we believe they are and what should they do...they'd only offer to treat us ...not the person that we are gossiping about..

he couldn't even advise without seeing the pt

look I don't care if she seperates
divorces..
my preference is to move with no forwarding address

the fact is he is too VOLATILE right now to be considered safe...

this is a grown man who stalks his wife continuiously....

He is NOT even capable of sitting down with life2 and carrying on a lucid rational conversation...
he has delusions that she is the adulterer while he is the one with multiple affairs...and continual threat of finding other women.....

I'm sure he can get better
with
inpatient hospitalization
medication
tons of group therapy and group accountability therapy...

lots and lots of things he can do to get better...

none of that has anything to with life2 and her need to be SAFE

TECHIE I am a huge promoter of people can change
I am hugely for the underdog
the belief that things can go from the worse to better...
I am..

but right now life2 has secure her safety on a multitude of levels before even being able to sit down with him..
she shouldn't even see him without a third party at all times as far as I am concerned...

ARK

L2S,

Yes, I do understand about the difficulty of remaining in the relationship, despite the knowlege that I should not remain. Like I said, I have been in your shoes. I know that feeling all too well. It was a very strange situation, where I remained with the man, despite all he had done - and did not let go in spite of knowing that I should, that I must, in order to save myself.

It is almost like living in a dream world, isn't it? Where you feel like outside events control what you do, even though you know what you OUGHT to do. For some reason, you find you cannot do what you know you ought.

In the end, I had to save my own life. His physical esclation was dramatic. I can't tell you what woke me from the dream-state, but something did. Perhaps this is what you are waiting for, your "God" thing.

I asked the questions, because they are some of the questions that led me to be able to leave. Looking back, I am better able to more honestly answer the questions. At the time, my answers might have been similar to yours.

I wonder who you were when you were 15 - you talk about that girl in your answers. Is there a part of her who keeps you in the relationship? Something the 15 year old L2S thinks that makes you stay, in spite of what L2S as an adult woman knows to be different?

Regarding the drama question - the only way out of the drama is to let the final curtain call happen. Sign the paperwork, and leave the theater.

As far as being a failure at marriage goes, it takes two. Your future is brighter in this department because you came here, learned here, and will come out the other end of this as a much stronger person. If you learn the lessons and don't repeat the mistakes - which I don't think you will do! Your posts show lots of insight. It's just that right now, you are stuck. There is a paralysis with getting out of this kind of relationship, I know. That sense of not knowing how you got into the situation, how it got so bad, and what the future holds once you are out of it.

Your response regarding not being good at marriage speaks volumes about what you are thinking about your future relationships - do you think this is holding you in this bad relationship? That this marriage is better than no marriage? For me, in the situation I was in that was abusive, I had fallen to the point where I believed that my own worth was such that it was true - that the relationship I had was about as good as I was going to get, and it was better than no relationship at all; that the future really held nothing much better for me. That defeatist thinking kept me paralyzed, and ultimately ended up getting me hurt quite badly by the man.

There's also one more thing I was wondering about. Are you staying married to avoid the idea of being single, dating, starting over? You know, the "date police" are not coming <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. Nobody is going to make you start looking for another man right away - you can wait as long as you want...forever if you so desire.

At some point, sooner or later, you will reach the point where you believe in yourself. It is then that you will free yourself from this situation, and you really WON'T care what anyone else thinks or feels about it.

That, L2S, will be your emancipation day.

SB

Staying married to avoid being single? There's probably some truth to that.

When I met my husband I was 38; now 48. I'm reaching a point where I think are there any good men my age that aren't married, gun shy or nuts?

I do not want to live alone forever. I do want someone in my life to share it with. My D will be gone in 4 years or so. I want to travel and live life but don't want to do it alone.

I think sometimes of what it is that I'm really letting go of. What do we really have together? I talk to him every AM. I call him after I drop my D b/c he fusses if I don't. When he's in nice mode, I don't mind talking to him.

My D goes to his house from school and I p/u her from there. Do some paperwork. We don't really do anything together. We didn't celebrate Christmas together at all. That was hard if I thought about it; okay if I had something else to occupy my thoughts/time.

If he wasn't in my life, I would work, find a house and when I got off go home where my D would be waiting on me. We would shop, clean house, go to work, school, church. We would go on trips, visit family, etc. We would have a normal life.

I don't know why I can't just let go? I really don't. Is it b/c it's the end of a dream? I still have feelings for him and he makes me feel sorry for him b/c of his health and his crazy family.

As for safety...................
His cousin is my nephew by marriage so there's no way to disappear from him. He knows where I work and I only have 10 years to retirement so I'm not going anywhere. He knows where all my family lives, where I go to church. He knows all about me and how to contact me so I can't hide from him. I've lost enough. I would have to move away and lose all contact w/my family in order to remove myself from him.

L2S,

"If he wasn't in my life, I would work, find a house and when I got off go home where my D would be waiting on me. We would shop, clean house, go to work, school, church. We would go on trips, visit family, etc. We would have a normal life."

Wow. You would have a NORMAL life. Without him. Re-read that, L2S. YOU WROTE IT.

"I don't know why I can't just let go? I really don't. Is it b/c it's the end of a dream?"

For me, I would say it isn't the end of a dream. Sounds to me like you have some fantasies about this relationship - the reality is that it was wrought with abuse, affairs, and disrespect to you. That is not a dream relationship.

"he makes me feel sorry for him"

HE CAN'T MAKE YOU FEEL ANYTHING. You allow him to control you. Your feelings are a result of the things you allow. By saying he makes you feel something, you remain under his control - take responsibility for your own feelings, and once you do that, you will realize the next thing I have to say is true.

You are "stuck" as the result of your own choice to be stuck.

You could make the decision today to sign the papers and be done, but you decide each day not to do so. You just do not drive to the attorney's office, and you just don't sign. The choice NOT to sign, for any reason you have avoided doing so, is the choice you have made.

There may be a million reasons "why". But you are the ONLY person who really knows "why". And the only one who makes the choice, in the end.

From the outside looking in, and from having been where you are, I can only speak for myself. I can venture a few guesses as to why. I've given you a few questions, to try to lead you in your own path. My reasons for staying, when I was in a similar situation:

I was afraid I was not going to find anyone else.
I was convinced (by him) that I was not attractive or worthy.
I had convinced myself that I had contributed more than my share of the angst to the relationship, and I probably drove him to the abuse by my behavior.
I was afraid of being single.
I was afraid of other men.
I was afraid he would be lost without me.
I felt sorry for him because of his crazy family.
I felt sorry for him because he was a very weak man.
I felt sorry for him because he was not well liked by other men.
I felt sorry for him because he didn't have a lot of friends.
I felt sorry for him because other people thought he was not-so-intelligent.

I could go on. But those are the top reasons.

When I look at it now, I know this: I was confusing pity with love. I did not love him, I pitied him. In the end, that was the true nature of my feelings for him. Not love. Not a dream relationship. The relationship I wanted with him was just that - what I had WANTED. It was NEVER what we really had. What we really had was messed up from the word "go". And it went downhill from there. Only I could not let go. Just like you.

I finally let go when I realized that I wanted that dream relationship. That it actually was possible, if I would only believe in myself, pick myself up, and WALK AWAY. With finality. It was one of the hardest things I ever did. But,

I did it.

Only because I finally chose to.

SB

This is very much how I feel. When I look back we had a dream dating R until about a month before we married. From that point forward ours was all downhill, too. It went downhill one angry episode after another. There's a song "The first cut is the deepest". So true. The first time he lashed out at me I thought I would die. The first A; I groveled at his feet. I begged him. I don't have a clue how we got through it b/c I did everything wrong; didn't know about Plan A.
Now, he has been so nasty so many times and so contrite and apologetic so many times it's just noise that holds no meaning.
Looking back, we've never had a solid marriage. I was always afraid of making him mad. I was never myself and never asserted my opinion b/c it wouldn't matter. He did what he wanted and if I ever did disagree, he bullied me into doing what he wanted anyway.

True. So true. He can't do anything to me without my permission. I give him permission by my inaction. I could put a stop to all the madness but, I choose not to. I choose to stay connected. The biggest thing is, I don't know why. I want to go sign. I want to move on with my life. Not to another man but to peace. Buy a house and decorate it. Take trips. Go to church without repurcussion.

[/quote]I was afraid I was not going to find anyone else.
I was convinced (by him) that I was not worthy.
I had convinced myself that I had contributed more than my share of the angst to the relationship.
I was afraid of being single.
I was afraid of other men.
I was afraid he would be lost without me.
I felt sorry for him because of his crazy family.
I felt sorry for him because he was a very weak man and has health problems; I have the insurance.
I felt sorry for him because he was not well liked by other people.
I felt sorry for him because he didn't have a lot of friends.
I felt sorry for him because he grew up very poor and was put down and laughed at alot. [/quote]
Your list above is modified. I took out what didn't apply to me and made some changes but, the list is pretty much the same.
On one level I know he will be just fine. He was fine before he met me, he was fine while in his A, he will be fine when I'm no longer in his life.

It just hurts b/c I wanted him to be the one. I just didn't take the time to get to know him long enough. He pushed me on the M. I would not have M him as quickly if he hadn't pushed. But, I was afraid to say "no". So, I just let myself get swept along. Going back to my childhood. I just had no boundaries.

If I had gone the day after he signed, this mess would be over in about two weeks. As it stands now, it will be about 45 days from when I sign.

I haven't yet signed but, in my heart and head I believe that will be the next step.

I'm interested in books that you may have read that helped you get past the feelings, the anger, the hurt, the feelings that you feel when a marriage doesn't work but you still care about your spouse.

Also, what kind of counseling/counselor would be beneficial in getting past the divorce?

L2S,

Just wanted you to know that I am in the same place as you now...knowing what needs to be done but having difficulty getting from A to Z...still have "feelings" for WH..."stuck by choice" the whole 9 yards...

Reading your posts have helped me to recognize my boundariless M and my inconsistency in enforcing/defending my own boundaries...I have 75% of the paperwork complete now and will move forward to complete the rest...it is gut wrenching but in the smallest corner of my mind I can see the possibilities, opportunity to achieve happiness all by myself if need be...the peace/calm of having only myself to account for and be responsible for my own life and actions and those of my precious children

You are not alone...hugz and appreciation for sharing and inspiring others by your O&H...the flip side is that there are plenty of people that I "care" about but I wouldn't want to be married to them...I need to see my WH in this group! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

2much,
I read some of your thread and, yep, we've got two peas in a pod!

I'm sorry that you find yourself in this situation.

I KNOW what I need to do. My H is a charmer, too. He has the most beautiful blue eyes and smile. But, behind those eyes and smile is a ruthless man whose words and actions have destroyed our R. I don't believe anything he says.

I'm just really angry w/myself for not signing the papers. That's all that's left. He has already signed. I need to sign my name and it's over except for the 31 day waiting period. What is holding me back?

The As won't go away.
The lies won't go away.
The verbal abuse won't go away.
The physical abuse won't go away.
The manipulation won't go away.

I've got to get this over with. I'm just afraid of his reaction when I tell him I've signed. The nice, contrite man that I have been dealing with for the last 3-4 weeks is going to turn into a nasty, spiteful, vindictive man and I'm not looking forward to that.

You are so right. Last night I emailed WH with the information that I needed from him for me to complete the dissolution papers.

1 wk ago he was angrily telling me to get the papers ready...past 5 days WH sweet, bought gifts, out to family function with kids and their friends all smooth and sweet...TMs about how confusing things are etc, how we both love each other...

In my email msg I stated I love him but want to eliminate all communication except my email and text just to coordinate kid stuff. I stated that if I couldn't be his wife I didn't want to be anything except the mother of his children (not a friend, support sysytem, SF buddy etc)...I stated it was his choice not to respect the boundaries/conditions I request for our M and that I refused to ride the emotional roller coaster by being "friends" while he planned his batchelor pad with furnishings etc

No surprise when I got a hostile message in return...I am sure it will get very ugly and dread it but it is inevitable I have come so far this time if I don't do it now I don't think I will have the strength and tenacity to go through this again

L2S if I were you I would make sure that you had a group of people who knew when you were signing for when WH found out. I would be sure to have them with me for a set period in case WH decides to become violent and you may even consider a security alarm in your home if you can afford it. Very least give the local PD a heads up if you suspect a problem. If WH travels give him the news while he is out of town to give him some time to process prior to being around. You could speak to a domestic violence support group to find out how to best handle this sitch before you actually sign.

I have you in my thoughts and prayers L2S...Hugz and encouragement to find your way to peace

2mhb