That sounds pretty manipulative to me. He isn't too credible when he says that he is willing; he sounds anything but willing. hanes, I think your instincts are right. I don't get the sense that he is truly interested in recovering your marriage and I wouldn't cancel the divorce proceedings unless you are willing to go forward with no demonstrated committment from him.

Tell him you think its impossible to envision continuing in this marriage until you see his demonstrated committment to repairing the damage done to your marriage.

If he is willing to make changes, he will start making changes.

Why do you think he is so eager to get the divorce proceedings cancelled? Is yours a state where he stands to lose because of his affair?

No, it's a no fault state. He sees it as financial and me trying to emotionally control him. He has to respond to the papers within 20 days or thinks he would lose a lot of rights. So would have to borrow money from someone, find a lawyer, etc. I've told him from the beginning and it's also in the divorce papers that my intent is to be fair and equitable with a liberal custody arrangement. If he doesn't respond legally, then that's the default. But he doesn't trust me (nor I him). I really feel that on my part, that this is not about control for me. That this is my own process, protecting myself and my kids right now.

I get confused about what's o.k. He told me to get away from him and not talk to him when I went into the shower to see if it's my turn yet - just a simple question (we take turns due to our baby). But when is it o.k. to express/be angry with the MB system? Or is it about respectfully requesting distance until you feel calm?

Also, this MC is not familiar with the MB practices. But he's an excellent family therapist so I feel will keep the interests of the family in mind (vs. just the interest of the spouses).

I really wanted to wait until after our first session to see if WS could comprehend that how he expresses anger towards me is not acceptable. That he fights horribly - even last night calling me names initially even when I asked him to stop. That he is unable to "repair" - either accept or initiate - after a fight. It's these things that really bother me when I think of the long-term.

hanes, it is ok to express your feelings to him, but it must be done without lovebusters. [a book your H would do well to read] Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? I would click on the lovebusters link at the top right of this page and read the article. In the meantime, get Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley. This will help you understand what you are dealing with.

Is your MC TRAINED in handling infidelity? MOST ARE NOT and tend to make critical mistakes because they don't understand the dynamics of adultery. Dr. Harley *IS* a recognized expert in saving marriages from adultery. That is why I would take him this article about what it will take to recover your marriage. [Rules of Protection]

I agree that your H is extremely abusive and that has to resolved. He needs to understand that those behaviors will only cause you to fall out of love with him.

And you are right, you are not controlling him at all, you are simply taking steps to protect yourself. On the other hand, he is trying to control you by making you cancel the divorce.

I am expressing feelings without LBs. I was wondering more about him actually. I do have the book and am in the process of reading it (got it yesterday).

I never saw it that way - that he is trying to control me by saying he can only work on the marriage if the divorce is cancelled. I realized thinking about stuff this morning that once he didn't convince me to cancel the divorce last night that he got extremely angry and then refused to talk anymore, saying he was done with me. That's what always happens - if he doesn't "win" then he refuses to continue talking and then denigrates me, making me into the bad guy.

It's difficult though b/c there are moments when we truly connect, when we agree that we both did things to LB and to not hold this marriage together. And ultimately I still love him. And once you're used to all this stuff, it's like it becomes the norm and it's hard to see even that it's abusive or at the minimum definitley not creating love. So it's also hard for me to see at what point do I actually divorce him. He's so convincing that we do get along most of the time, are civil, even still have "relations" (can't remember the abbreviation this board uses - sorry!). It's that when we do fight, it's very bad. And i still feel he has no respect for me nor speaks to me with any respect.

And this is the way I know how to stand up and say, "enough." And this whole process has been that for me - finding this website and board and now reading the book. To stand up and *respectfully* *calmly* say to him - Enough. This must stop now.

And this is his first affair that I know of. He states that if I had not caught him he would have never told me about it. But that *right now* nothing is happening, he's here to work on stuff *together*.

This is the right way to go, hanes. Appeasement and timidity will only embolden him and then he will hate you for ALLOWING him to run over you. That is the way of bullies. And he is bullying you. But, he can change if he wants to. And I hope you are open to giving him that chance. But I think you understand that relazing your standards will not be the answer.


If he really wants to work on things "together" then you must have ALL THE FACTS about his life. It starts with HONESTY. You are ENTITLED TO THE TRUTH.

Do you realize how cruel and manipulative this statement really is: "He states that if I had not caught him he would have never told me about it" He is saying that if you had not caught him in his affair, that he would have nver told you. In other words, he would have KEPT YOU IN A MARRIAGE BASED ON A LIE.

See, you have a RIGHT to know everything about your H's life, including his affairs. This is information about your life, after all that was wrongfully withheld from you. You have a RIGHT to know all this so that you can make the decision whether or not you will stay married to a cheater. By withholding facts from you, he DENIES you that right.

Cruel, sick, manipulative and DANGEROUS.

hanes, bring this up in your MC. His attitude about keeping things from you will harm your marriage. If your MC does not agree with the concept of radical honesty, then find anohter MC.

melodylane (and others,) thanks for you direct honesty. I've also had some close friends review my post here and they totally agree with you.

I see your point too about being in a marriage based on a lie. Yes, it would feel humiliating to find out 5 years down the road and feel like I had been living with a dishonest person for all that time. Plus, I don't think this A would have ended if I had not found out about it/exposed it.

WS is still putting intense pressure on me to call off the D. And I'm not giving in. I'm struggling though with keeping the D in my mind while also trying to work on the marriage. On one hand, I think of all the lies and manipulations of the past year and want to proceed with the D.

And I keep coming back to what WS's mother said when he told her about it. She asked him two questions: (1) Do you love the OW (he said no). and (2) did you enjoy it (he said it was difficult to enjoy it). And then she lambasted me (to him, not to me) for invading his privacy and what kind of person would do that instead of just ending the relationship "honorably" by going to her H and saying that she doesn't trust him anymore, it's over. Nevermind that H should have done that!

I just keep thinking of that and feel that how he was raised is part of why we're in this situation at all. What kind of mother asks her son if he enjoyed it???? What kind of mother wouldn't kick his butt for cheating on his W, especially with a baby at home? And maybe this is part of his character and not something he can truly change?

And honestly, I *do* want to give him a chance but I also know that this MC does recc. divorce sometimes. I plan to give him printed out stuff but part of me wants my WS to hear that it's over from someone other than me. Is that manipulative on my part? I have been honest with WS about this though. That I am going to MC with the question of whether we should work to save this marriage, not that I am 100% committed.

And can it be saved unless I am 100% committed? Doesn't it take two to do that? I know from reading SAA that some of these are normal feelings. But at what point do i need to say, "yes, I'm 100% committed to saving this marriage?"

hanes, sometimes divorce IS the answer and I understand that you are still in the consideration stage. I think that is WISE. That is what you and your MC will have to determine together.

You would be fully within your rights to move on if you think is hopeless. You don't have to rush into this, though. If you see that he is committed to doing the things necessary to repair your marriage, you would want to take that into consideration for sure. But, if he continually tells you he will do nothing to change, then you have to seriously ask yourself if you can live like this. Because if you do, you would be a volunteer.

Unless he changes, you may be facing a life of he11 that includes verbal abuse, dishonesty and disrespect. He feels no obligation to demonstrate trustworthy behavior or to show caring for you.


What a [censored].

On second thought, do you only have HIS WORD that his mother said this? This could be SPUN in a way that made him feel good and you look bad. Do you honestly think she really said that? Or did he make this up?

I only have his word, but believe me, I fully expected that she would support him completely. I do honestly think she said that. We do not speak the same language so there is no way I can check it out with her directly. I may have one of WS's brothers translate when he comes to visit at Christmas though.

You're totally right on about him feeling no obligation to show caring for me or even just basic civil treatment. He attacked me this morning about something. Then *he* brainstormed solutions and we discussed how he could have approached me differently and he totally justified that he *has* to be able to express his emotions. That he was upset and should be able to express that, i.e., talk to me angrily.

I'm feeling like he's just not getting it. But I'm still here. And maybe he WILL get it at some point and hopefully a MC can help him see at least the basics of what a marriage should be. Or since we are tied forever through our children, the basics of what any respectful relationship should be.

Do you have the book Lovebusters? He needs to understand that when he lovebusts you, he is causing you to fall out of love with him and is pushing you away. He does not "have" to "express his emotions" [unless he is a teenage girl] and he certainly does not "have" to abuse you.

Secondly, do you think he believes that adultery is wrong?

LOL! I do not think he thought the adultery was wrong. Two nights ago when we discussed some more he said that I "broke trust" first by calling a woman he was going to a concert with (driving overnight with her). I was crazy insane b/c this is a woman I knew he saw at the club, I did not know her, he gave me no info. about her, etc. So I called her. Never talked to her as she called him back and then he went off on me. I do not think he cheated on me with this woman, honestly. It was a very different feeling than my bells going off with his very real A.

So then he says that I broke trust first. Then he broke trust by cheating. And then I broke trust by spying. He actually tried to compare me calling some woman to him cheating on me. So I honestly think he thinks it was justified even though he says verbally that it was wrong. He just says it with no emotion attached, no true remorse, and still maintains that it shouldn't be a big deal since he just messed around with her.

oh cool, so he won't mind if you just "mess around" with guys as long as there is no emotional attachment?

If he doesn't see anything wrong with adultery, what is to prevent him from doing it again?

He has actually said just that, with women, not men though. And I thought it was his way to justify his actions. He said it before he knew that I knew about the A. Actually, he said it before I even knew about the A but had my suspicions. He had proposed open marriage shortly after that. And I had said no way.

It occurs to me that I need to ask him if he really means it. Maybe he does. If so, I need to know that he would not think twice about cheating again. B/c so many things he has said point to that - that we may find ourselves in the same spot 6 months from now, that he still has his "hormonal urges" for other women.

And I do NOT want to be in this spot again. At home taking care of his kids and home while he's out "messing around." I'm very clear in myself about that.

[color:"red"]2 things[/color]



[color:"red"]1st >>> instead of typing in the "quick reply" box at the bottom of the page, click on "reply" to one of the previous posts ... that way, you do not get timed out

2nd thing >>>>
I don't think you should cancel your divorce petition
it seems to have your H on the ropes and this may be the only "rock bottom" he will understand

in the meantime, continue to offer the HOPE OF marriage reconciliation via counseling, openness, and MUTUAL respect ... but don't cancel the divorce petition until he is on his knees and expressing sincere remorse

stick with Mel ... her advice is awesome

Pep [/color]

thanks, Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Ask him: "what assurance can you give this will never happen again? And what things will you do to make me feel safe from a reoccurance?'

I understand how frusterating it can be. Went there with my XH... Spyware? Checking up on him behind his back? To me- those are just as deceptive and sneaky as his affair was, no trust on either side. And, honestly - right now- no matter what you do- it's a damned if you/damned if you don't situation. There is gonna be alot of hurt & mistrust on both sides. I found out from experience- it has to be 100% open-ness from both sides...and sometimes- even that is not enough. Ask him to show you- to prove it to you... give him a chance to show that he is trying. If he feels you are doing it behind his back- even if he has STOPPED all contact/etc. that alone- can make HIM feel bad enough to try to hide what is left. and to try to preserve whatever shred of control he has over the situation and himself. I hope I am conveying this the way I intend. What he did was not right. period. and no- he probly doesn't deserve any privacy, etc...but how good can it make you feel if you are hiding that you are checking up on him?...........and what real good can that do the relationship? Full disclosure- from all sides. Total honesty... and alot of time to work it out. again- this is all just my opinion- take it as you will. what works for one will not necessarily work for another... But willingness to try anything to solve a problem- even if there are 99 out of 100 that does not work, eventually it will lead you to a solution at some time.

4myself, you have this backwards because you are making an invalid moral equation between cheating and CATCHING someone cheating. Cheating is WRONG, catching someone cheating is NOT WRONG. Cheating and lying are deceptive and sneaky, catching someone lying and cheating IS NOT deceptive and sneaky. She should not trust an untrustworthy person, that would be silly.

There is nothing untrustworthy about catching someone cheating, it is very untrustworthy to lie and cheat. Rather, she has a obligation to protect herself and check up on him until he EARNS her trust.

Do you think the cops are being "sneaky and deceptive" when they catch drug dealers? Now, wouldn't that be a silly notion?

4myself, what would you suggest i have done? Ask him directly if he was cheating on me? B/c that is exactly what i did. And he looked me in the eye and directly lied to me, saying "nope, never, I would tell you before I would do something like that." The spyware is the only way I found his secret email account where there was obviously an A going on. I guess I could have gone directly to the PI (which was my next step), but that's an expensive step with no tangible "evidence" other than gut instinct.

And he has said he would have never told me about the A, ever, if I had not discovered it. Yes, I agree with you - there is no trust now on either side. Which is part of my delimna - how to go forward without any trust.

And I am not checking up on him behind his back since the A has been revealed. I have done nothing to check and if I do want to, I go to *him*. Not the best strategy as he has bald faced lied to me in the past, but it's one I have *chosen* to use.

hanes, you did absolutely nothing wrong. And you should continue to check up on him behind his back until he restores your trust. You have an OBLIGATION to protect yourself from him. No one has the right to the privacy to harm you behind your back.