How did he find the keylogger, hanes?

It was my error - I clicked on an email from the OW before he had read it, panicked and forgot I could set it back to unread. He noticed and even warned me he was going to come home and scan the PC for some other made up reason. But I still didn't uninstall spector. I think I wanted him to know I knew everything. I was having a really hard time keeping the information to myself. That's the night everything came out.

Now he has the scanning software on the PC that he runs daily to make sure I don't have a keylogger on it. And he also has an extra one that scans AND hides your path if you tell it to.

We have been talking in bits and pieces all yesterday. He said he does think the A was a mistake. He could offer me reassurance that it wouldn't happen again just by saying that (1) it was diminishing returns for him (it was not a LTA, rather a very new, 2 month old A). (2) that he really wasn't sure what would happen if he had an A and I found out. He just thought I would just be mad (yep, b/c I'm a doormat). and (3) He now knows if it ever happened again I would immediately divorce him, no discussion.

The assurances felt genuine and real. But I'm still proceeding with the D. It's very much all talk from him and no real action. Even yesterday, he slept in when our agreement was that he would get up when our oldest DS woke up. I did not LB him around it at all. He brought it up and said, "well, I stayed up late the night before. Aren't there any allowances?" I just told him, "I'm not telling you what to do. It's your choice. I'm just pointing out that it's not what we agreed on."

But it's this type of thing that I think of - that he can't even make it one week doing what we agreed on and something relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

O.k. So I need advice on this. One way i could check that the email account is definitely closed is to email the OW and then see if my WS lambasts me for it. If he does, it means she emailed him and also means the secret email account was never closed.

I've had fantasies of emailing her pictures of our children, telling her she absolutely should feel some guilt for being part of this (he always maintained to her that she should feel no guilt for helping him cheat).

But I also know this would probably be the breaking point of this marriage, whether *he* would feel like staying or going. It would be a major LB. But then again, it would be the breaking point for me too as in "you are still not being honest with me and I'm out of here b/c of it."

I'm suspecting that the email account was never closed b/c *after* he said he had deleted it he sent me a summary of her last email to him with the youtube link she sent which was very obscure. And I just keep thinking that how could he know the link? He has said that he searched youtube and found the video. But I find that so unlikely.

Am I wanting to do this just out of revenge? I've kept my emotions in check over it and have never mentioned this to him, but I don't trust that my own intentions are valid enough to take this step.

So any advice? Yes or no? Very bad idea? I *don't* think she is a psycho woman who would track me down, etc. I'm not worried about that part of it at all.

I vote no

this is not going to help

OW should NOT know what your children look like

PS

very bad idea

FOW in my situation..NEVER expressed GUILT..kept trying to convince my FWH that what they were doing was not WRONG..since they were SOULMATES..and MEANT TO BE....

WSes and OPes are ALIENS..they are not governed by LOGIC or REASON..or MORALITY....

o.k. glad I checked this out here. Will NOT email her. Thank you!

WS and I went to see the MC last night and it went pretty well. I still want to leave him, but I have decided to stay and work on this for at least three months if not six. I feel like I have to do that before I can really truly feel like I gave it every chance I could. Also, from reading SAA, I know it's pretty common to go back & forth on leaving/staying.

I still love him very much. My perspective on this is that I will stay and work and Plan A & if during that time he continues to make "love withdrawals" and my love decreases and decreases for him, then it will also be easier to leave later.

I did agree to cancel the D while we work on our M. I'm feeling a loss of personal power but trying to see it as a huge L Deposit. I guess my struggle is I really feel like I've stayed and stayed and stayed and been treated very badly and finally WS cheated and now here I am, still staying. It's hard. I guess the difference is WS says he's willing to work this time. And I have a lot of personal work to do as well during Plan A.

So while I'm going through Plan A - where's the best place to post? Here? Another forum?

ummmmmmmm

did H agree to cancel his affair while he works on M?

If you go to MC ~before~ he has 100% NO CONTACT with OW ... it is a complete waste of $$$ and time

Pep

hanes, I would not cancel the D proceedings until he agrees to never see the OW again. Will he send her a nc letter tha is written together and mailed by you?

Here is the nc letter from Surviving an Affair:

Dr. Harley�s (From SAA)

(OP), I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that (BS) did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay (BS) for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she�s been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely,
(WS)

because .....

an adulteror who is still in (any sort of) contact with the OP (even minimal) will sit face to face with the marriage counselor and LIE to both the counselor ~and~ the betrayed spouse

ask the MC if he/she believes the A has ended

Pep

Will he also agree to allow you to place the keylogger back on his computer with only you having the password?

hanes, these things are the LEAST he should be willing to do if you are willing to try and dismiss the D. He has to DEOMSTRATE that he is going to work on this marriage with ACTIONS. If he is not willing to do these basic things to repair your marriage, THEN YOU WILL KNOW HE IS NOT SERIOUS.

Is that you online with Dr. Harley right now? If so, he just told you not to drop the divorce. And if he makes that a condition of working on your marriage, then you should ALLOW the divorce to go through.

He said you should only drop the D if you see that he is really working on your marriage. Then you will happily drop it.

That is you, isn't it?

Yes - that was me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. ML - thank you for making that post a couple of days ago encouraging us to listen to it. I learned so much just by listening this morning. I finally got the courage to call. I am not dropping the D based on Dr. H's advice but I am extending the timeline to 1 year vs. just 3 months.

I woke up this morning and just felt so depressed thinking about cancelling it. I have yet to tell WS and I know he's going to completely blow up on me. But in that case, Dr. H said that would *be* a reason to continue with the D. It was amazing how well he pegged WS (during the break), down to the words he says!

WS has cut off all contact with OW. He did that immediately after the A was revealed. He is making strides - going to MC together, not going out, willing to talk about the questionnaires with me and go over them together. Starting to try to meet my ENs. But the D has been a sticking point with us.

It really boiled down to this - everyone here saying not to cancel it. All my friends saying not to cancel it. My mother saying not to cancel it. And finally Dr. H saying not to cancel it. The only one saying to do it is WS. I have to think that my judgement here is not sound in agreeing to cancel it last night.

So glad you called! I didn't hear entire call because I was on the phone, but I heard enough to know it was YOU! And I am so relieved that you have decided to not drop the divorce. Make him work for it, hanes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

excellent !!!!

Pep

hanes, here are my notes from the call. I played it again tonight and heard the whole thing. My notes are sketchy but I thought he made some outstanding points.

Is he willing to change his independent behavior for ALL TIME? He probably had the affair because of his independent behavior.

He does whatever he pleases. He tries to force her and is controlling, manipulative and abusive. He badgers her until she agrees with him.

The counselor needs to work very closely with husband on the way he approaches his problems. How does he communicate with you in a way that you don't feel pressured? <---------this is the MAIN PROBLEM as Dr Harley sees it and should be the entire focus of counseling. Counseling should be focused on HUSBAND to help him change his communication skills.

Tell him I don't want you to do anything without my enthusiastic agreement. HE will get mad at this suggestion and call her names. He has to learn to interact in a way that postpones his own gratification.

There is no reason you cant continue divorce while you are in recovery until there is some evidence that he will change. It is not leverage, though.

Tell husband I will give you a chance to reconcile while the divorce goes on. If I no longer feel badgered and abused, then I will drop the divorce. Give this a year.

Tell him, I want to see alot of respect and I want to see you treat me the way you would treat any human being.

hanes, when Dr. Harley talks about asking your H to agree to only do things with your ENTHUSIASTIC agreement, he is talking about the Policy of JOINT AGREEMENT, POJA. This is one of the cornerstones of recovery:

Policy of Joint Agreement: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html

Giver and Taker: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html

Well WS blew up last night and was very, very angry about me not dropping the D. My question is, and I think I'm going to call in today as well, how is NOT dropping the D NOT a love buster? How does it create a safe environment for change and growth for us?


He also emailed Dr. H. Here's his email.
Also, he did NOT end the A. He said he *might* see her at the club that Saturday but he wasn't sure what he was going to do.

My wife called in yesterday 12/20/06.
Her name is XXX
She called because her husband had an affair.

I'm XX the husband.

Yes, I had an affair. Yes, it has ended. It was a sexual affair (with little emotional content) and it was still beginning when I ended it. We never had intercourse. I do not add that to minimize it. I understand that I crossed a line and caused my wife much pain. I'm just trying to give an accurate representation of the situation, which I feel my wife did not do. I ended the affair before my wife confronted me, because I felt it was doing more harm than good. My wife was reading my e-mails and knows that the above is accurate.

My wife and I dated for 5 years, and have been married for 6. We have 2 children, 5 and 1 years of age. I work outside the home, and she is a stay at home mom.

Like my wife said, we had significant problems before the affair.
The troubles began after our first child was born. The labor did not go as planed. My wife had her heart set on a natural birth and she had to have a c-section. She took this very hard and was depressed for more than a year afterwards. This was the catalyst and when I say that I'm not issuing blame. It was something out of her control. My wife's depression, as she describes it, was not a "sleep for days" depression but an "angry" depression.

I was an O.K., but not perfect husband during this time. I had my own adjustment to fatherhood to go through and I had just started a new job fresh out of school. When I tried to lend my wife support or advice, I was usually greeted with anger. Slowly but surely I withdrew. The cycle was very predictable, but we were unaware. Anger, withdrawal, anger at withdrawal, more withdrawal.

My wife did not resolve her emotional problems around "birth" until the same exact thing happened with the second birth. She attempted a v-bac and got stuck at the very end, fully dilated. She had a c-section. Amazingly she was depressed for only a short time. She went to therapy some, and came out of it very healthy around the "birth" issues.

For us as a couple though, we were stuck in a rut. All during our marriage I had kept my sense of identity and my self-esteem (maybe because I worked outside the home). My wife was pretty lost and had very little self-esteem. We had both treated each other like door mats. Her anger was the hissing balloon type, a little every day. Mine was a big blow-up every 4 month or so. The difference between us is that she believes herself to be a door matt (because I treat her like one), while refuse to see myself as a door matt and just view it as her opinion of me when she is angry.

We have more than just these issues, but this is the basic frame work. Anger at each other.

This is around the time that my independent behavior started. My wife described me to you as "do whatever he wants whenever he wants". I only ever had 1 independent behavior, dancing on Saturday nights (not all Saturdays), and it was always after the kids bedtimes. No excuses for it. It was an escape. I did this for one year before I had the affair.

My wife also described me as manipulative and controlling during arguments. Aside from her filing a divorce, here are two other arguments we've had lately and the extent of my "badgering".
1) We were speaking about our goals in the marriage building process. She said she wanted a marriage were she felt "cherished" (not just loved) and was not willing to accept anything less. Her time limit for this was 3 months or she would divorce. I said that I strongly disagreed with that time limit, that it was unreasonable. I said we needed to give ourselves at least 6 months if not 1 year, and continued to present reasons why for several minutes. I was not going to give up on this point it was important to me. I was being persistent not badgering.

2) Two days after she confronted me with the affair, she wanted to not ever bring up the affair again. Again I told her that I thought that was unrealistic, that it was setting us up for failure. She is very stubborn, so I have to be persistent with the points that I believe in. I do lose my temper at times, but I do not consider it a pattern. And I do not think that I'm presenting a point of view that is unfair to her. I am fair.

You told my wife to go ahead with the divorce. Here are my reasons why I think it is not a good idea.

-Stress: This process will require me to see a lawyer a few times. Weather I want it to or not this process is going to bring up negative emotions in me. Specially when he starts talking about custody and things I have to do to make sure I don't give up any rights, etc. We do not need more negative emotions. We do not need more stress.
-Loss of Control: I read her divorce papers and they don't say things exactly as she told her lawyer she wanted them. The lawyer threw in some extra things to make sure he protected his client. I don't doubt mine would do something similar in the name of protection.
-Financial: We can't afford it and therapy. It will be a struggle. More stress.

I never made my participation in the therapy process contingent on her not filing a divorce. I just said it would make things harder for me and therefore us.
We are now trying to patch things up. What happened to mutual agreement. I don't remember being too enthusiastic about this one.

You've done my family a disservice.

How does badgering and bullying you into complying with his wishes and having an affair create a "SAFE ENVIRONMENT?" You are not in a safe environment, hanes. But that is what you are trying to create. CHANGING HIS BEHAVIOR is what will create a safe environment, not bullying you into complying with his demand to drop the divorce.

This reaction just demonstrates that he is not willing to respect your feelings and is going to bully and push and pressure you into dropping the divorce. Not dropping the divorce is not a lovebuster. Please read the list of what constitutes a lovebuster. Not getting your way is NOT a lovebuster.

The way to get you to drop the divorce, hanes, is for him to STOP badgering you, instead of INCREASING his badgering. He is spending all of this capital on BADGERING YOU instead of working on your marriage.

He needs to understand that you do not want to drop the divorce until you see some real CHANGE on his part. And badgering and bullying you when he doesn't get his way is NOT CHANGE. It is more of the same.

hanes, this issue is not between your H and Dr. Harley, but between you and your H. You need to TAKE OWNERSHIP of your decision to not drop the divorce.