This was the email I sent him yesterday afternoon. And, yes ML, I *do* need to take ownership of the decision. I don't think I have yet.
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I've really thought all night and all morning about me agreeing to cancel the divorce. I cannot do it. I am very, very willing to stay here and work with you. I haven't left. I haven't requested that you leave. I feel like both of us are making strides towards a better relationship. But for my own personal process and gaining strength as an independent individual, something you seem to want for me and I want for myself, I need to proceed. I am more than happy to put it on hold after your first response. I don't doubt that you could control any lawyer you hire to do this for you. If you like, I can get a referral from my lawyer for someone he feels is ethical.

I need to see a respectful relationship develop between us. One that takes both of our needs and considerations into mind. I need to feel like I'm not being pressured during negotiations between us. I'm willing to work on this for a year, rather than the three to six months we had discussed previously. I think that will give us enough time to see the benefits of our changes in our marriage and family. And I feel that I still love you and we have a lot going for us. I do *not* want to have to finalize a divorce, but I need to see changes happen in the interim.

I've been so torn about this and I called the marriage builders radio show this morning to dicuss this with Dr. Harley and his wife. It was enlightening for me. I think they have the shows archived if you want to listen to it. And they said you're welcome to call them as well with or without me around. But it really helped me see that I do not want to cancel the Divorce, rather just put it on hold.

I have put a call into my lawyer. I haven't heard back from him but will clarify the options again just to make sure it's clear what needs to happen before putting it on hold so that your rights are protected. I know you're on a 20 day clock, so need to contact someone sometime this week.

Here is something I would keep top of mind, hanes. It is UP TO YOU, and only you, to protect your interests from him right now. As it is, your H does not have your best interest in mind. He is only concerned with his OWN discomfort, which was entirely self induced.

He is not at all concerned with protecting you, so it is left to YOU to protect yourself. He wants to drop the divorce, regardless of whether that is a safe move for you, only because it "causes him stress."

He has committed the greatest betrayal a spouse can commit. What he has done is as traumatic as a RAPE or the death of a child. And he is only concerned with "his stress." hanes, do you see this dynamic here?

Instead of shrieking about his "stress" and having to face the consequences of his rape, he should be asking his rape victim what it will take to MAKE HER FEEL SAFE AGAIN.

Why isn't he asking this, hanes?

Put another way, you are in a position where you have to protect yourself from him until you are certain he won't harm you anymore. Trust must be EARNED, it is not an entitlement. He is DEMANDING undeserved trust. He doesn't want to work for it, he wants to bully you into handing it to him.

*ahem*

he "might" see OW if you don't drop the D

this is ludacrous

this is blackmail

this this is meant to frighten you into submission

if you yield to this threat, you will reinforce his position as marital terrorist

beware

Pep

To clarify, he did completely cut off contact with OW *after* the A was revealed.

PB - I did think of this last night. That if I drop the D, then according to our pattern he would just disrespect me even more. I would not be standing up for myself and then somehow I know it would get turned back on me.

My mother said a similiar thing to me last night. That I have to stop trying to please him and have to start worrying more about MY feelings and MY safety despite his reactions. To essentially not get pulled in to the dynamic of doing things for him; rather it's now time to look after myself.

hanes, and there is more here. Appeasing someone who does not have your best interest at heart is to contribute to your own demise. You must DEFEND yourself against such a person, not HELP THEM HARM YOU.

The way to have the kind of marriage you want is NOT through appeasement. Appeasement only EMBOLDENS bullies. Rewarding him will only guarantee MORE OF THE SAME.

So, your choices are to appease him and have more of the same, or stand your ground and give him the opportunity to really repair your marriage. You appease him at your own expense.


He has not completely cut off contact if he is planning on seeing her again. He must agree to NEVER EVER see her again EVER. To never go to the same places she goes, etc.

Just an update - WS and I talked and talked last night and I set very clear limits around his bullying - no cursing at me, no blowing up at me, no calling me names, etc. And around negotiations - no pressuring me, no badgering. He agreed to the conditions and we both agreed that our MC will also review them and discuss them with us. I was very clear that if he goes off on me again in an angry abusive whirlwind storm, then I will consider that the end of the M. I felt like I needed to do that in order to even feel safe working on this M.

It was a very heartfelt conversation and I felt like we connected on an emotional level, something we haven't done in a very long time. If we're both working on this, do I still do Plan A? WS has read the MB site and continues to read it (yes, he may read these posts- I'm not sure if he knows I post here - but that's not stopping me from being very honest in them - if he wants to see my process here, that's fine by me). He brought up Plan A and said he feels like he needs some "sweetness" to help him along, that taking anger every day is difficult for him. I'm not having any AOs but sometimes he still perceives an angry attitude, which we also discussed is not always accurate - that he needs to check it out with me. But it is sometimes accurate.

And where does expression of anger (mine) come into play in Plan A? After WS's rules were agreed upon, we talked about the MC helping me, as well, finding a better way to express my anger directly instead of "sniping". I still have a lot of it surrounding the A.

So my goal is "Speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way." Right? I'm guessing I can apply that to the expression of anger. Afterall, that's what I'm requesting from WS - self-control, extreme self-control in order that the feelings I do have left for him are protected.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Plan A is not an entitlement, it is something that is practiced voluntarily in order to end the affair only for a SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. So, it wouldn't be appropriate here. Rather, he needs to practice "sweetness" in order to woo you back into the marriage. Plan A is only meant to be a very temporary state anyway.

That being said, you do need to address the problem without lovebusters.

My big concern, aside from his verbal abuse, is his unwillingness to ensure that ALL contact is ended with the OW. There are certain things he needs to agree to do in order to affair proof your marriage, such as avoiding independent behavior and never going to the place where he met the OW. Is he willing to do those things, hanes? Because just a couple of days ago he was not.

hanes, i wouldn't bring him here unless and until you are willing to lose this place as resource. Until trust is restored in your marriage, you do need this as a resource for yourself only. We saw how he lashed out at Dr. Harley in his email, it would be unfair to subject posters, who try to help you, to the same thing.

I am still very concerned about this:


Has he agreed to STOP going to the club?

hanes, are you expressing your anger in DISRESPECTFUL, lovebusting ways? How exactly would you describe it?

As far as FEELING anger, you are SUPPOSED to feel anger. That is a normal healthy reaction to being betrayed and abused. Dr. Harley likens the trauma of adultery to being RAPED. You would be ABNORMAL if you weren't angry.

That does not entitle you to abuse him, though. So, if you are engaging in any of the lovebusters in an expression of your anger, angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, selfish demands, then you would want to stop that. BUT....if you are simply expressing ANGER at being abused and defending yourself, then that is perfectly acceptable. Your H should understand and accept that his victim will be angry and hurt after being abused.

buy a blank notebook
call it your joint marriage journal

you both can write your honest thoughts down
leave it open for the other to read

it is harder to LB accidentally if you are putting your thoughts/feelings in writing

try that one on

Pep

hanes... I posted "Joseph's Letter"
specifically for you

Pep

O.k. I went and re-read the letter. Will print it out for him. He *has* said in the last couple of days that he will never go to the club again if that's what it takes. Even a year from now, 6 months, etc. NEVER. But nope, no keylogger consent. I struggle with believing he has no contact with her. And need to bring it up more directly via Joseph's letter.

Thanks for the feedback about Plan A. I don't think I'm expressing angery in disrespectful ways - I'm trying very hard not to. I think what he's talking about and what I struggle with is this general sense of being angry sometimes, like "attitude." I'm also trying very hard to change that.

I like the journal idea and we're both communicating through written word. It's something Dr. H suggested as well (through email) b/c manipulation is much easier to see if it's right there in front of you.

I do not think he will post here. I haven't told him specifically I post here, but if he asks I will tell him the truth b/c I'm trying very hard to be completely honest. I"m not going to lie to him about things and then expect him to be honest with me.

hanes, radical honesty is for the RECOVERY PHASE, not when you are still not able to trust him. Right now you must PROTECT YOURSELF FROM HIM. Until that changes, you should not tell him about your protective measures. You have certain things you must keep private right now IN ORDER TO PROTECT YOURSELF. Please don't make the mistake of bringing him here because you will LOSE this place as a resource if he comes here now. We have numerous BS' who really need the help who can't even post here anymore because they unwittingly brought a WS here.


So, don't let down your guard and FORFEIT your protective resources until you can really trust him. Affording trust to an untrustworthy person WILL NOT HELP YOUR MARRIAGE, it will HARM IT.

Secondly, he should be willing to place a keylogger on his computer and let you password protect it - with only YOU having the password. He has to EARN trust and this is one way he could earn that trust and help you feel SAFE. Placing a keylogger on his computer will KEEP HIM HONEST.

Remember, people who have nothing to hide, DON'T HIDE. He should WANT to do this, so he can PROVE his innocence to you.



Showing the letter is good, however, you must also VERIFY that he is being honest with you. Until he has EARNED trust, you should not trust his word. It would be insane, and detrimental to your well being, to afford unmerited trust to an untrustworthy person. Trust, but VERIFY with a WS.

Hanes, don't focus on the OM at the club and be suspcious of the internet.... Your WH could find a internet affair, or someone else or who knows what, could be porn - whish is addictive just like an OW.

So you need to set your boundaries.

You can also ask him about a post nuptual agreement - that says if he has an affair again he looses everything. Its a legal document that is a contract between you and him, that way he will always know what the impact of the affair is.

Somehow I missed this while going through the MB site - seriously. I do understand that I need to protect myself and implement self-protective measures. But I still don't get how doing that dishonestly would help my marriage. Wouldn't at least one person extending honesty help us both get there? And honesty, oddly enough, is a sticking point for WS who feels *I* have been dishonest from day 1. Actually, now that I write that I see it very clearly as a projection/justification for his own dishonesty. I did (as in the past tense) have a habit of not telling him small things about the kids I thought would make him angry. We've both engaged in punishment for honesty in terms of that. And I, at least, am trying to change that.

Last night we started talking and he told me some very honest things about why he had the A. I didn't react. I thanked him for his honesty and for helping me understand him.

O.k. Will not tell him I post here if he doesn't know already. I don't think he visits often as he told me last night that the stuff here is crap. I totally predicted that he would do that. Actually predicted that even before I confirmed he was engaging in an A. It only took a little over a month to be proven right. And, of course, he felt free to say that b/c now he feels like the pressure is off since I did agree to cancel the D. It came out around the co-dependency stuff and independent behavior - his biggest thing in life and the thing that led to the A.

other stuff - I'm in the middle of reading milkshake's thread. Her situation sounds very, very similiar to mine without the bi-polar stuff though. I'm finding it very helpful.

Also, I need to remind myself the ways in which WS is trying - he bought me a christmas present! Usually he doesn't and makes all kinds of excuses about time, etc. but he stated outright that he knows that's important to me (yep!) and was going shopping for me earlier today. It felt really nice to have a present under the tree this year <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

hanes, honesty about things that are designed to protect your from his betrayal is not warranted until trust has been restored and you are certain he is being honest WITH YOU. Until you can independently verify that he is no longer harming you behind your back, you should not put down your shield. And being "honest" about your resources is doing exactly THAT. It is the equivalent of putting down your arms while you are being fired upon. Don't disarm until you are CERTAIN your opponent is DISARMED, lest you be sitting on the field of battle defenseless and get your [censored] shot off!

For example, until you know for SURE that his affair is over, you should continue to monitor his activities. You can't very well be OPEN AND HONEST about that and still effectively protect yourself. You would be leaving yourself open for more harm by using honesty in that manner because it would just enable his cheating if he were so inclined. Honesty is for RECOVERY PHASE, not when trust is very questionable and its use would only ENABLE his affair.

There is nothing UNTRUSTWORTHY about protective measures taken when you have been so betrayed. And I get the sense you think there IS something untrustworthy or dishonest about snooping on an untrustworthy spouse. THERE IS NOT. Catching someone being untrustworthy is not dishonest, adultery IS dishonest, untrustworthy. There is a huge difference.

The problem with bringing him here before you are really in recovery, is that it hampers your ability to get your marriage to the POINT OF RECOVERY. It is a great resource once both are TRULY committed to recovery, though.

Glad you got a present this year. I find it a little shocking that this is a first. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I didn't say it was a first - it's not. It's just hit or miss in the gift dept. and always has been. It's pure thoughtlessness/passive aggressiveness that started from the first year we were dating. No mother's day present for 3 years running, no valentines (although last year he did bring me and DD a rose since a guy at work was selling them). This, at least, I KNOW was not about communication since how much clearer can you get than, "I would like a gift this year."

So here's a different question - how do you deal with - I'm not sure what to call it - shame? We visited one of WS's friends yesterday and his wife knew about the A. Totally started talking to me about it and although it was clear that she had no respect for WS, was totally on "my side" I still felt shame that this would happen to me. Apparently she was under the impression that I had PPD and wasn't having sex for the past year. Reality is that thank god we were having sex 2-3x/week before the A or else i would have felt like I caused it more than I did. I did set her straight. Anyway, I confronted WS about this and asked if he had lied to his friends. Of course he denied it.

But it really set me off. I felt so angry that I had to have this conversation at all. And then I start to think, "here I am - mistreated for years and now my H even cheats on me and here I stay." I know that's my Taker talking (reading LB right now). But how do you get past that? How do you frame it to yourself that gives you an "out" for staying? It's like a pride issue for me sometimes, not always. Does anyone know what I mean?

Well, I think you are supposed to be a little angry that your H has an affair on you and then tells all his friends he isn't getting any at home. That is a natural, normal response to a grossly disrespectful act.

Why do you think you feel ashamed?

Yes, Hanes, ALL who have been on the Betrayed Spouse "side" of the marital equation know what you mean.

But how do you get past that? How do you frame it to yourself that gives you an "out" for staying?

This answer depends greatly, if not exclusively, upon the answer to the question "who is Lord of YOUR life?"

If the answer is "self," then self-concern, including selfishness and self-centeredness, rules and filters everything through that the lenses of "how could you do so-and-so to ME!?" and "what's in it for ME!?"

If the answer to the question is Christ, then the "how do you deal with it" (the very REAL hurts and deliberate sinful choices that affect you) is to surrender to God first. The concept is best described this way; "THIS is love, that while WE were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

What did it "cost God?" It cost Him everything simply to give us the OPPORTUNITY to be reestablished as Jesus' "bride."

Whichever way you answer will play a pivotal role in the success or failure of any of your, and your husband's, recovery efforts. I say that in the full confidence of having read all that you've posted, you are both still "protecting your own turf" and are NOT putting the spouses needs ahead of self.

The "architect" of the house determines the materials needed and the steps to be taken, and in what order they need to be assembled to arrive at the desired and hoped for "finished product," ready to be "lived in" in peace, safety, and comfort. WHO will be the architect of the house you are trying to build? The "old one" was obviously flawed and deficient and rebuilding the "same old house" will not likely result in "something newer and better."

You, and your husband, will face many choices and changes that need to made. What "blueprint" you follow is up to you. NOW is the time for you both to consider carefully your choices.

On a practical plane, your marriage ended when your husband CHOSE adultery as the "way to deal with his perceived stress." He already chose divorce, so whether you proceed with the divorce or not is up to you. Recovery or divorce is up to you, on YOUR terms (btw, even though your State is a "no fault" State, you still CAN file for CAUSE, i.e. adultery). He had his "shot" at terms, and opted for adultery.

The rest is summed up simply that he is still living in a self-oriented, selfish and self-centered frame of mind. You seem to be following a similar path, but as a consequence of his actions, even though it's quite possible that your own actions (or inactions) may have "contributed to the marital atmosphere" that got him thinking the "answer" was adultery. Regardless, YOU need to firmly understand that IF your marriage is to recover and IF your husband is to given a "2nd chance," it is up to YOU to set the requirements and up to him to choose to surrender to them or not. Just remember that if YOU want to recover your marriage with him, the goal must be EQUALITY, not "master/slave," "lord/servant," etc.. It must be coequal partners whose strengths and weakness complement and support each other.

God bless.