Hello HB.

Would love to get her to focus on what it takes to get the feelings back. W unfortunatly believes feelings come first.

Working through that as she says her feelings are stronger and has some new ones, just not the SF ones yet.

I emailed W that I was going to ALanon tonight and got no response. I'll have to see if she let's it lay.

Problem on my boundary is other than NC before we can really work on marriage, there isn't any teeth or timeframe in my boundary. Reinforced this boundary today, W said if I needed to move on, she understood. Well that wasn't really positive.

W has stated that if she decides to return to her family, that WE may have to move back. I informed her that that was to large of a commitment for me without a progress on our M. So to answer your question on W moving, at this time it would be a separation.

How is your situation lately? Did you get through the holidays in one piece?

Hi SS -


That is her belief, so you need to respect it. She sounds like she's gaining more and more feelings...if she keeps going that direction, SF will return.

The simple fact that her feelings are coming back proves the MB concept, IMO. She is taking steps, however small, to work on your marriage - and her feelings are returning.

The work you're doing on yourself is also helping with that. So keep it up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Exactly. Let it lay. You shared with her. If she wants to voice an opinion, or engage you in discussion on it, let her initiate it. One of the hardest things for me to learn over the last year (and I'm still learning it) is how to simply state my truth and leave it at that - what LovingAnyway calls Openess and Honesty Drive-Bys <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You cannot educate a WS, and all attempts to do so will backfire. Indeed, I'd take it one step further and say that you cannot educate anybody - unless they come to you asking you to do so.


Nope, not positive at all. But totally understandable (from a WS point of view) and not unexpected.

It is up to you to put the teeth and timeframe on your boundaries. Remember, these are about you - what you will and will not do, and will and will not allow others to do. They are not to "force" others to act how you want them to.

If she's not willing to meet your NC boundary, and if her leaving her job is part of that, then you, and you alone, need to decide if you are willing to live with the threat of renewed/ongoing contact and possible restarting of the affair.

You should decide how long you're willing to wait, and put together a plan in place as to what you will do if NC is not established and maintained. This may (or may not) include Plan B.

Boundary teeth and timelines are your call, not hers.


Sounds like an excellent opportunity to start practicing POJA. Why is moving too much of a commitment without progress in your marriage for you? Not making a judgement here, just inquiring.

It doesn't sound like she's looking to run back to mommy without you - and that is a good thing with which you can work.

Did you expose to OMW yet?


Thanks for asking. Situation is about the same, I'd reckon - not where I want it yet. The holidays were very good and enjoyable (better than last year - but then last year I knew my wife was leaving to spend 2 weeks with OM 2 days after Christmas, and had the runs for 5 straight days).

I don't post about my current situation on the forums these days, but I can tell you that standing up for your boundaries, while very scary, can also be very freeing - and may even produce the results you want. Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself and your marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

W has asked me to decide what parts of any books I want her to read. Since she is asking, should I take the offer or is that guiding her too much? W says the reading helps her understand things better but that she needs some guidance as she isn't a reader by nature. Just doesn't agree with MB actions beget feelings premise.

God, I love the drive by concept and have gotten a little bit better with it. Very hard not to "explain" though.

My daughter lives with her mother here. I would have to move 6 to 8 hours away. I might be able to make that work, but with that difficulty and my job, I believe I need something concrete to commit to that move.

Went to OMW house again yesterday with no one home. Next try will be early Friday morning.

Sorry about asking on your sit. Didn't mean to invade your privacy and I appriciate the insight into the boundaries. That is a very difficult concept when you are in love with someone.

Hi SS -


Yes, take the offer. She's asking you for input, so provide. Don't make it elaborate....just mark a section or two for her to read and let her decide if she wants to read it.

Let it her decide how to interpret and apply what she reads. If she opens a dialogue with you about it, then great. If not, respect her choice.


Yes, it is. I have the same problem. When you get the urge to "explain", tell yourself that you are dealing with another intelligent adult (regardless of what you feel her actions are showing you), and allow her to make her own decisions. If she has questions, she'll ask them (eventually). It ties back to that whole respect issue.


No need to apologize. You weren't invading anything <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You asked a question, and I gave you the answer I was willing to at that point in time. I would love to post more details of my situation, as I think others could benefit from what I've learned (and am learning). I'm the kind of person that prefers concrete examples rather than general principles, so it does frustrate me to not be able to share concrete examples.

Yes, boundaries are a difficult concept to learn and apply, because on the surface it seems counter to everything we learned and everything culture teaches us. When you really look at them, however, you discover that they are not contrary to happy and respectful living, and indeed can make your life happier.

For a BS, it's even harder to implement boundaries because they are counter-intuitive, and we believe that by doing so we will drive our spouse further away. That fear is, IMO, compounded by the BS being in a place of reaction, not action. The truth of the matter is that defining boundaries for ourselves, and acting from those boundaries (not reacting to what others do), can attract our spouses back, but more importantly, make us a better, happier, healthier person.

My Yahoo! e-mail link is in my sig - feel free to use it if you want more specifics or just need to vent/ruminate with someone who's where you are.

Hi SS -

I completely forgot to reply to this part of your last post:


How involved are you in your daughter's life currently? Would it be possible for her to come visit and/or stay with you and your wife for extended periods (like vacations) if you move?

You should definately try and POJA this with your wife. I have no doubt that your daughter is important to you, and that needs to be taken into account by both you and your wife before making any long distance moves.

W is a week into cold turkey on the booze and seems to be feeling better and the shakes have subsided.

As she was discussing how hard it was going through this, I asked if she had considered AA again to have support from ppl who have been through this. W said no, so there it sat.

The close-not so close feelings my W is exhibiting is really tough 3 months after d-day. I was hoping this would slacken. Thoughts about OM surfaced yesterday after another attempt at exposure was a failure. Next try Friday morning.

Back in a 'not contributing much' phase again on marriage. Might be because the withdraw from alchohol. Should see more in a few days.

My D is mentally challanged. I currently see her every Tuesday, every other Thursday, and a 3 day weekend every other. I would lose significant time with my daughter with a move. My W loves my D nearly as much as I do. She likely would feel more guilt if I moved away.

Maybe I'm just having a bad couple of days due to the Buckeye's embarassment in the title game.

Well, OMW continues to be elusive, but I did get ahold of their phone number and will begin calling Monday morning.

W went 5 days without anything to drink. Last night busted that but she didn't drink to excess. Doctor put her on Paxil for depression and anxiety.

W has been more distant the last few days. Few kisses, few hugs, sleeping on other side of bed. Could this all be from the alchohol withdraw and the new medicine? Could their have been contact?

I have been avoiding any LB's abd trying to meet any conversation or affection needs. Those two I have identified as she has yet to touch her questionaire in the last 2 months. Isn't reading anything. Stopped listening to Mort Fretel's CD's. Like she is back deep in the fog or something.

How much should I be able to ask her what she is thinking/feeling? I believe we are both feeling seperated this morning and neither one is talking about it.

W keeps watching these romance/fall in love movies. I know she likes them, but feel she is dreaming that is what she should be feeling and isn't. W admits she is a dreamer and still seems to be awaiting the magical return of intimate feelings.

Feeling like we are going backwards this week and not sure if there is anything I should be doing.

sunsetter, is she getting help for her drinking? She needs to get into a program of recovery or she won't able to stay sober. She has to address the problems that LED TO drinking in the first place in order to sober up. Otherwise, it is just a white knuckle exercise with frequent "relapses" that will achieve nothing. Stopping drinking is just the first step in a long process of recovery.

Healingbird is giving you excellent advice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I scrolled up and read that she won't go to AA, which is very sad. All of her white knuckle efforts will be for naught, I am sad to say. But at least you are going to Alanon, which is a very good thing.

Be cautious about using Plan A with an alcoholic, though. Plan A IS NOT meant to be utilized with addicts. By all means, do not lovebust her, but understand that it will be IMPOSSIBLE to meet her needs. She will only view it as an opportunity to exploit you.

Did I show you Dr. Harley's article about alcoholism? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

Well, this morning was Exposure DAY to OMW. Had 20 minute call with her when she had to hang up from tears. Gave her my cell number to call me back if she wanted to.

OM told OMW that there had only been 10-12 calls all from my wife when she was drinking. Actually there were over 400 just on cell phones. Likely more on company inter-company phone and I know there was e-mail as well. OMW had no idea that the EA had been going on for 3 months. She thought 2 weeks or so. OM has told their MC and his church the same thing. Apparently he is a church leader as well.

OM told OMW there had been NC since 10-8. I informed her of calls on the 20th, 23rd, and 24th of October and face to face contact and communication at work around Thanksgiving. More lies.

Told OMW that she had a right to know everything I knew.

OMW told me on my W "we have to end this call", that she told OM she loved him 3 times." W told me she never said that she had loved him, only that OM stated he loved her. More lies?

Hoping OMW doesn't go off the deep end with OM and drive him towards my W. I am greatly concerned about that.

Then of course the likely anger from my W because of my exposure. Oddly I'm a bit detatched about it but don't want the stress of it on my W to give her reason to start drinking again.

Thinking even if this does cost us weeks of semi-recovery and feeling returns, that in the end, the exposure imporves out chances of a full and real recovery. At least I hope so.

Now to wait and see if OMW calls me back. And try to keep hope alive. Nervous beyond belief I think.

W has only had drinks, just 2 one time in last 8 days. Says she feels so much better physically and mentally. Has pulled into parking lot to buy on three occassions and left each time.

Good job, SS. But don't worry about this driving her back to drink, she never stopped. Her drinking won't stop until she gets into recovery and addresses the underlying problem.

Your W and the OM may even contact each other again for damage control, but that is ok. What you did dealt a severe blow to the affair and will make it much harder for them to resume with 2 ppl watching.

She will be furious, that is expected. Just don't allow her to bait you into a fight. When she calls you up in a rage just tell her "I'm sorry you are upset, but the OMW had a right to know the truth, too." Don't try to reason with her. Just be pleasant but not defensive.

OM conntacted by OMW. OMW just called back. He didn't invalidate anything I said just that he loved her and wanted their M to work.

Now waiting to see if my W finds out about it.

If I can't do anything to start to rebuild my marriage(because of her drinking) even if W commits tomorrow to work on R,she may be weeks if not months to commit to treatment. THat would put recovery and marriage building another who knows how far off with no guarantees if ever of making it back.

How do I keep my feelings alive in the meantime? This detaching and waiting will do that kill that in me eventually, I'm afraid. My love bank needs some deposits as well if I understand MB correctly.

Can MC be started as she tries to quit drinking, or is that a waste of time and money until she is through treatment?

ss, you know what I would do? Call Dr. Harley on his radio show today and ask him your question. He is extremely helpful and will set you on the right path. You have a difficult situation in that your W is not only an alcoholic but she still works with the OM.

Write a brief email about your situation to Dr. Harley at: jharley@marriagebuilders.com. Ask the question you asked above in your email. Follow up with a phone call between 10 and 1 cst. Here is the link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=12

WOW! OMW called my wife about exposure.

W calls and said "who did I think I was playing god"

"They were working on there M and so were we and I had to control things cause they were not moving as fast as I wanted"

"I poured salt in the OMW wounds." Funny OMW said she was thankful I called.

"said well it's over. We need to get home tonight then split up finances"

I simply told her I understood and was sorry she felt that way.

God. I feel so on the edge of the abyss right now.

It's ok, SS. This is a COMMON reaction to exposure and it will blow over. They almost ALWAYS threaten divorce, rarely ever do they follow through. She wants to punish you for interfering in her affair, hence the threat. This tells me that she was holding out hope for a reoccurance. Otherwise, this would not bother her that much.

If she comes home yakking about a divorce, simply tell her that she can do what she wants, but she will get no participation from you in any divorce scheme. You will discuss reconcilation, but won't even discuss D.

You will be just fine.

She told me that contact with OM around Thanksgiving was so she could share the R books I have been reading.

I know she is consumed with guilt over the pain in his family. She actually called OM and ended it in October due to guilt for his family and ours.

Guilt has always been a big part of her personality (hence the drinking) and this might be the reason for her reaction.

This is her latest email.



Whatever. You did this under selfish reasons of your own. If you wanted to say something you should’ve done it when everything happened instead of when she finally started to heal and you just rip her heart out all over again!! Why would you do something like that?? Why didn’t you do this when this all happened. Now you have just made things worse for her and the boys. I could care less about Larry but you are not the one who should be telling her things. If she is smart she would figure things out eventually later anyway!! How could you just do some thing like that is beyond me. Of course I guess some things never change the fact that you are always right and will always do things your way in the end with no regard to others is like you have always been! I’m tired of all this!! You have made things worse for me now as well. Everything is so ****** up now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

She has been saying for 6 weeks that I am the man she always wanted, now this.

FOGBABBLE!

SS, she should be consumed with guilt for her actions, however, that did not seem to translate into compassion for her victim if she was intent on keeping the OMW in a state of deception and fraud.

Without knowing the truth, the OMW couldn't even begin to work on repairing her own marriage. A marriage cannot recover when it is based on lies and deceit. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. The OMW had every right to know about the affair. These are facts about her LIFE to which she is entitled. It is in her best interest and best interest of her children for her to know the truth so she can a) LEAVE if she chooses, or b) stay and work on her marriage. Most of all, she has to have these facts so she can protect herself from your W and her H. This way, she can watch from her end to ensure the affair doesn't resume.

Let's just keep this in perspective, ss. It is cruel and selfish to have an affair with a MARRIED MAN. It is not cruel and selfish to warn their victim.

She should not be contacting him AT ALL, ss. FOR ANY REASON. This is s cruel, thoughtless action that was another knife in your back. If she were truly concerned about his marriage, she would not have had an affair with him and then strived to keep her victim in a state of ignorance.

Well it has quieted some.

My email:

I'm not sure what you think I had to gain. I had nothing but my conscience to go on. I wish I had spoken up in October, I really wish I had it together enough then, but the truth is something she didn't have and had a right to. SHE doesn't think things are worse and her relationship is what we are talking about. It might make things harder for him for a while, but, as she explained to me, "their marriage would be built on the truth" which is what she wanted. I would have wanted to know as well, maybe you would have wanted to know in her shoes too?



I am truly sorry you think so badly of me, that hurts me more than anything right now, but I understand. I contacted her with full knowledge of the responses, but I had nothing to gain. I have learned doing the right thing isn't always the easy thing or that you will get something from it.


This is the latest. Still looking for answers.

Her answer:

She is just such a nice person as are you but sometimes things are just better left alone. She sounds like one of those very naive women that took her husband from granted and now is playing the innocent partner. Maybe this will make them stronger but I pretty much doubt it because of how I heard she was and could tell from the phone call she is. Whatever happens for them happens. I am trying to understand what you are thinking about being in her shoes but I also believe people can change now they might not have that opportunity. I am just not sure it was the right thing to do this late in the matter.

OOps, got another:

It wasn’t me you hurt. I am just TOTALLY PISSED OFF AT YOU right now. I feel bad because she is hurting and part of that hurt is my fault. I feel just like my dad. I pretty much am my dad. When you talk about Larry that way you might as well include me in that because I acted just like he did so I am no better. The only thing is I was more honest that he was. I tried to tell him he needed to tell her the truth but he always said you don’t know her like I do. Oh well guess that’s his problem I just wish you and her wasn’t hurt so bad by all this. I mean my god we didn’t even kiss!! I just don’t understand how all this got so complicated!



Am I doing too much explaining?

"honey, I am glad to see you are feeling better. I realize it was a shock, but when you calm down, I believe you will understand this was for the best. I know your heart is in the right place and that you feel bad for what you did. That is because you are a caring, loving person.

I am here for you and I love you,

Sunsetter"