MT,

"This is where my belief that I am indebted to people and my other belief that I am only responsible for my actions come into conflict."

Do you experience gratitude as debt?

"She told me right after she did it. I do not throw things. Nothing. I do not act violently."

So when I asked how did she make it clear she wasn't throwing at you...this is what you heard? She stated that she does not throw things and does not act violently?

"I hear you believe you do not throw things and to do so, is not choosing to act violently?"

Then listen...you know she actually stated a lie to her self...right there in the open. Please, MT, would you consider listen and repeat while you dial the police?

You don't know why she's inside out right now...neither does anyone else but her...that's in her responsibility...and what I'd really like to see you choose to do is not know...would you consider that? To live from respect, your job is to know and stand in reality...and bring it.

The possible reasons are truly wide open...she's experiencing deep FOO issues watching you parent your son as she most wanted to be fathered...stating and enforcing boundaries, listening to him, following through on your attention, your boundaries and continuing to love him through every action...and her resentment hardens, deepens, widens with every positive enforcement you do with him...because you have none on her...you waffle, stay present, take abuse...results in feeling unworthy, no value...not as important to you as your son is...makes her a bad mother, a monsterous wife...constantly set to hear others (including you and your son) are saying those exact things about her or hold that opinion of her.

And maybe nothing close...not for us to know. For you to know that what you may believe will have a negative outcome isn't any more valid than predicting a positive one...let the outcome go. If you are going to hold yourself accountable to not act violently as an adult...then you have to hold others to the same...It isn't parenting...it's partnering...respecting and bringing reality. Here is what you did. Here is what I do. Acts of love are greater than you can imagine right now...please believe me. I called the police on my OS...he was stunned. The police officer was stunned...at the time, I depended on the outcome...did not good "Good mothers don't call police on their children." Okay. Eight years later, my son still talks about it, saying "That's some gutsy love you did." And we did. Didn't hang on the outcome. Of course, I also tricked him into thinking I was putting him in Juvie...like I had that power...and got an intake officer to go along for three hours. My 15-year-old has not been arrested by civilian police to date (only as yet...lol)...and I can't account for all the MP's when he was in the service.

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Not saying I did...saying I took my acts of love, which seemed to not be love to others...and nearly a decade later, he sees them, knows them...can rely on me to act...from love.

I would not parent my DH...I would call the police if he threw objects, hit me in anger (even if it didn't hurt), and act from my love. Not retribution...no winning/losing...getting out of the way of natural consequences. Not playing God. Which can seem VERY controlling...not calling can appear that way...you hold it over her head...each time...when you aren't doing so...because you didn't hold to those boundaries.

If a stranger had knocked on your door, and when you opened it, threw a hand-mirror over your head into your house...you would call; if the same stranger flailed her fists at your chest, you'd call...will you consider that this can be perceived as you respecting strangers more than your own partner?

Makes more sense to me...why she wants to talk about independence, separation...when she remains seeing herself as not that way right now...talk more to make the fantasy seem more real...because everything is inside out. She can't fathom right now how it got so inside out...don't teach about resentment...own your own...share, enforce, be present and remove your presence in alignment with your own code...staying present reactively in the old dance isn't going to break the inside out she's experiencing (and which makes more sense you are, as well, because enmeshment is like a conductor)...do it for you, for who you really are...respectful and wanting to live in respect...truthful and because you desire to live from truth...

You might even save your marriage, aid in healing and being healed...thrive.

Your basic choice to respect remains. New steps begin with that choice...and that choice IS an act of love...may not feeling loving (which comes after the action)...know it is.

That way, you'll stop confusing your son...he'll see you act consistently...model healthy boundary enforcements and respect.


"I'm clearly stopping myself, because no one else can."

The truth, not your truth...you can experience life as if others control you...that's fantasy...can feel like reality. You mentally know you're stopping yourself...and I asked for you to answer your why here...you're stopping yourself from listen and repeat, boundary enforcements...and I threw out a lot of maybe's...and you came back with...because no one else can stop you.

Would you consider her anger stopped you from owning a lot of your choices pre-A? Her unhappiness, resentment, cruelty stopped you? Now that you know it was your choice, solely in your domain, does that magically make your choice to not listen and repeat solely yours? Or do you have overlap...you don't want to respect first...you want her to change first, then you'll respect? Get to your desires to know your beliefs...to see your own whys...you can do this.

If your response to attack is to hold still and go limp...play dead...withdraw...would you consider invoking your first boundary enforcement to clarify if you ARE being attacked? That requires you to not go automatically in take-it mode...requires you to establish you own your own perception and perspective...and stating those is being assertive, present, real...not visibly invisible.

For clarity, reality...not to get her to stop, start, do, not do, say or not say anything.

"I didn't withdraw from this conversation, in my opinion."

I didn't state correctly...I meant withdrawing as your permitted reaction for years...as you said...not in this conversation. I walked right over context. I'm sorry.

"This hurts. I feel angry reading this. It sparks my inner critic, telling me I'm an abuser, there's nothing I can do about it, because conflict avoiding has been linked to brain structure. It's who I am, and this characteristic is defined as abusive by someone I give authority. Leads me down a nihilistic path. Of course I have all the opposing thoughts too."

What would happen to you if you acted abusively before? What would that mean to your self? I don't see these previous choices (and every choice is previous to today's choices) as who you are...I'm not defining who you are...I shared my belief that the choice to avoid conflict...is an abusive act in my book. My respect for you remains...intact...the same. What I hear is that you believe differently...that conflict avoidance is in brain structure? It's a condition, a physical limitation, not a choice?

Our brains are amazing and they can restructure themselves and do, constantly...always open to creating a new neural pathway...both to our blessing and our bane.

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I hear your anger...and I hear you heard me define you as an abuser...which is healthy anger, me crossing your boundary, not defining you. Who did I remind you of? List them all.

Thank you for sharing your reaction...and that you had opposite thoughts, as well.

"Then it's something akin to demonic possession. The part of myself that's closed off, that I'm not consciously aware of, is trying to remain comfortable. So it shuts my mind down in these situations and creates my inability to respond. Flooding."

Would you consider that part of yourself is trying to remain alive? That conflict feels like death? Which would shut down your mind, causes you to go limp, floods you with your own emotions...and adrenaline? Flooding from physical, emotional and resulting in mental freezing?

I know you can state, "I am alive. I'm not being killed. I feel flooded right now and I want to hear you. I'll be back in ten minutes."

"To me, when she says this it always seems to be in response to my assertiveness. On Friday night I went out with my brothers. I came home about midnight. WW had to work in the morning, so I didn't wake her up, but I moved the cars so she could get out without me getting up. She woke me up at 6:30 to tell me that she thought it was abusive that I had done this. Identifying abuse is now a way of hurting the other person. Not at all what I intend it to be."

I'm sorry...I feel like laughing. My Dh and I got into this when we were focused on identifying...because I would say, "That's a DJ. Stop. Wait. Is it? What did you say?" And he's say, "Okay, show me..." and we'd repeat...and he said, "How are we going to play then?"

You moving the cars wasn't abusive...you stating you feel flooded isn't abusive...very possibly, NOT listening and repeating is on the fringe...'cuz I know she woke you up, and I don't expect you to say this "I hear you think that me moving our cars around in consideration of you is abusive, is that correct?" "YES!" "Good to know." Then return to sleep.

That's what I'm asking of you...to not debate...first repeat to know...to clarify or confirm. I don't see that in your posts...and I understand it can feel awkward, seem downright dorky (both come from self-image, not self) to listen and repeat. Respect isn't about self-image...isn't an ingredient in self-image...it was from disrespect we made our self-image, though we did not know that then.

Would you consider blame as the main ingredient in forming self-image...the very choice to form it? So ownership wasn't even present...only blame? Which may be why you're hearing you're being blamed? And why you may reach for it...because like offense, it has to be taken?

And not you doing wrong by reaching for it! Ack. Our intent to see, be aware, to know...not to judge?

I believe her statement relates to the inside out...when you live with someone who is experiencing this inside out...you can easily be sucked into it, I believe. I'm asking you not to...through awareness...not judgment.

And to relate back to you not withdrawing from the conversation...I believe this is inside out...me speaking to old choices...and me asking you to reconsider your choice to stay and not enforce boundaries by progressive steps, including removing yourself.

Removal of presence...not withdrawal. Extremely difficult separation to make. Yet, aren't they all, in a way?

Do you believe the block to your own clarity may be coming from your knowledge of all your own handed-down FOO stuff and hers...is that in your way of knowing she threw the handmirror and that is was an act of violence? To know she was attacked repeatedly as a child...your deep desire to not appear as though you are doing that, even if that is outside your control?

I'm not sure I can make stuff clearer. Hmmm.


"Yes. This is exactly why verbal abuse is so nebulous."

And which is why it isn't at all. Because to live by implication is not to live...no more so than living by inference. There's no respect, no communication...it's assumption...to imply is to put responsibility onto the listener...which can't be...only half and half...stating or not stating. I do not assume everyone's statements are opinion about their truth. I know it inside my head and clarify from my choice to act from respect. Does not mean I am successful every time. I remain reactive internally...through inference.

For clear communication, I listen and repeat with my filter...this is what I heard doesn't mean that's what was said. To infer adds more junk, IMO. Choosing to repeat, rephrase, is an act of love from me to others. And there's that very subtle belief that what others say is what they mean. I believed that. Until I listened and repeated to my DH and is said, "That's what I said? I meant the exact opposite of that." I wasn't judging...didn't indicate anger or joy in response to his statement. Went to clarify because my DH at that moment wasn't listening to himself...then he was. He was really surprised. So was I.

Found out...his wishful child took over in that statement...wishing it were this way when it really wasn't.

Does that remind you of WW saying she doesn't throw things and didn't throw it as an act of violence?

I know one of my signals of being in my wishful child behind my own back is the deep urge to be rescued...for someone else to rein me in...align and calm me. Wishing I wasn't the only one who has that power. Healthy boundary enforcements help everyone.

"But this is one of the facts of growing up, becoming an adult. Adolescence is all about defining yourself, creating firm boundaries between self and other. You learn to accept that others' opinions are their own. I'm not saying that I didn't make a mistake in addressing my WW without taking ownership of my opinion, I know I did."

I believe this is the way it "should" work...didn't work this way for me. I learned nothing of myself and others...I did not define myself...I ran from myself...and I heard others state fact, not opinions. They often backed up fact with, "That's normal. That's how normal people think. People with common sense. You're the one who isn't normal." How could I possible own anything since I wasn't there? Only through others' eyes? Striving with everything in me to be normal...and rebelling mightily, as adolescence progressed, to NOT be normal, simultaneously?

When I own my stuff with "I" statements...I exist. I am. I'm really here, choosing to share and choosing to listen. I matter. To not own is to self-negate...may not be huge, or annihilating...what emotions did you feel after that conversation? Those would be the signals to whether you self-negated or not.

"Yes and no and no and yes. It's okay for both of us to judge, because we have free will and can do whatever we want to. The consequences may not appeal to us. Was it ok for my to judge her beleifs? I don't think so. Is it ok for her to judge mine? I don't like it. That's all I can say about that."

Would you consider that to judge others' stuff is an act of fantasy? A tool to see better into yourself when you say, "I'm sorry you feel that way" because when you feel that way (whatever it is), you don't like it? You fight, suppress, struggle to change the feeling? So the I'm sorry is a signal to you to accept your own feelings...trace them to embrace them?

"I would probably make a bunch of judgments about you, questioning whether you would be a good person to spend time with. I think I would respond by saying "ok" or "interesting"."

I have this belief, MT, that new ideas are like funny people...if they are funny, we let them into our heads while we're laughing and let them walk around a bit, and sit down...then we consider them. We don't do this with threatening ideas...they both are ideas for consideration...to sit across from and consider. There are as many funny abusive people as there are outright aggressive ones...one gets in for a cup of tea...they are equally destructive to us. When I finally learned this, I invited all ideas in for tea...and not until I KNEW the idea couldn't kill me...the person could.

I go for healthy humor now...it's tough. LOL. I couldn't have gotten there through judgment...judgment is fantasy, a ploy I used to know before I knew. I don't believe judgment and perception are the same...we perceive sunlight...we judge it delightful...or invasive...stimulating or oppressive. What I'm asking you to do is to first clarify or confirm what you heard (perceived) before you judge.

"Of course it is. Just like the opinion of the WS that having an A and dissolving a marriage and family is a viable solution to whatever problems exist in the marriage is their opinion. I find this opinion sad. I feel sorry for those that believe it, yet I don't see them as me. I respect their right to believe what they choose to. I may have an interest in my WW questioning her choice to beleive this. In this case the line between us is vague, because the consequences of her choices impact me and my family."

Okay, I think a call out to Orchid about reverse babble would be appropriate. You see that her opinion/belief is hers...which is great. See, that's the part I would get and then I would lose...and to clear lines up, reverse babble is what you do with a WS...and what I believe I did when I rephrased with ownership and choice...

"I hear you believe right now that replacing your spouse is a solution to problems you have in the marriage." See, that's a reality bringer...someone who lives from respect and honesty. States back...doesn't mean the outcome will be fog lifting or clarity...hands back what they state as their belief...because self-deception is an on-going process...takes a lot of fog to keep us there...so the more you listen and repeat, the more we hear what we think reflected, distilled, offered, and heard.

Doesn't mean I may not be angry at what I'm hearing...or own that you're rephrasing for clarity...does mean you're choosing to do what is right based on your code. I doubt you will feel sadness when you act from respect...usually clarity doesn't have many emotions...what I get is a kind of peace, mostly quiet feelings. Sadness is grieving and I think that's very appropriate with your partner having this belief right now...grieving her ever believing or acting on that belief. Absolutely. And I can see where you link that to feeling sad she did that...does that...from believing it...many can believe it and NOT act on it. I guess I focus more on the choice than the belief...because of my own wishful child...wishing replacement would work, instant fix...not real. Now, acting on such a wishfulness isn't premitted in me.

Because I don't believe that way...took a lot of resentment to get me to believe that way in the first place. Not much pain to go to my wishful inner child, though.

"I see people as equal. However, certain people are not safe for me to be around because of the choices they make. This judgment is necessary for my survival and well being. I don't do this to falsely bolster my self esteem (which is my understanding of where interpersonal judgment is so damaging). Perhaps my attempt to influence my WW's thinking is disrespectful, but it was not a false self esteem boost to me. I am still happy regardless of what she thinks or does. My happiness is never contingent on what someone else does - it's my responsibility - and making it contingent on someone else is a control tactic."

You choose to be around your WW...I believe it is a healthy act, and important for the survival of your marriage...and so is the removal of your presence (Plan B), as well. I do not believe you are choosing to do so to falsely build your self-esteem...I think this is directly an act of love...and I would ask you to consider that your choice to disrespect your WW's beliefs is because you really wish she didn't have the perspective she does...have given herself so many permissions to attack, destroy, discount, disregard...so from your wishful child, not your ego, IMO.

"I'm sorry you feel that way" can also be said, "I wish you didn't believe that." Which one holds ownership and truth?

"If someone is pinpointing the beleif that they based an action that was antisocial on, it's my belief that if that belief was challenged, the event might not have taken place."

I believe sharing our stuff, antisocial or not, especially are beliefs, is hugely important...and I don't believe in events might not having taken place...because I couldn't know...and I won't know what doesn't happen in the future because of me sharing with you, right now. I respect you believe there is power in challenging antisocial beliefs (what I heard). I believe sharing is as powerful...more powerful than challenging.

"Isn't this what we all do? Tune our behavior based on consequences?"

I can do it with BIG consequences...now. I'm still learning how to see all the consequences...the inobvious ones. I didn't change my past behavior based on consequences to myself...I based my horrible choices on what others did or didn't do. I do believe we are intended to learn through knowing and feeling our consequences.

"The absolutism inherenet in your statement is totally unrealistic, and I certainly don't believe anything along those lines. There will always be pain, sadness, anger, etc., in the world, in relationships, etc. It's a fact of life.

I've got to run - I'll be back. As always, thanks."

"In our adult selves, yes, we know pain, sadness, happiness, anger will be in our relationships, ourselves, our world. In our wishful child, not so sure. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about my absolutism inherent in my statement...which one...me asking if you can trace your sadness for someone else's belief to your wishful inner child. You said you believe that if antisocial beliefs were challenged, some events may not take place...

Going back further to what I missed:

"What I meant by addressing the issue at hand is that I accepted reponsibility for doing something that she was not in agreement with, and something that wasn't totally in line with the spirit of the plan/budget we created, and I tried to both remedy the mistake (suggested we take some cash from the budget line and pay this puchase off the card) and agreed not to use the card again for this sort of purchase. I'm not debating blame. I'm focused on the problem and finding solutions."

Am I getting this correctly? You acted without consulting your WW on a $15 purchase which was outside the scope/spirit of your budget...then you owned what you did, why you did it, and acknowledged her feelings and thoughts about your choice. Then you wanted to remedy the mistake, find a solution. And your intent is not to debate blame.

I can only relate to this when I would tell my DH, "Thank you for calling me on that. I see now that I didn't even consider our agreement when I chose to do that." I don't say it to flatter or to dodge. Along with choosing not to do or say which I will resent, I revoked my permission to flatter, falsely own. When I state my gratitude, I'm feeling it...because he was aware, caring and participating.

I realize my WH wasn't...he was attacking and combative...I still said stuff this way...because I truly, deeply, madly wanted to change, whether he came out of his fog or not...whether he chose our marriage or not...and I was honestly grateful for his sharing...and he did call me on DJs, even back then...and he said, "Well, isn't that abusive?" and I didn't react...I took that in the spirit of "he's asking...let me look at this" and we did so togther. For clarity.

I respect you believe differently. I see in CA...DJs (assuming what is conflict, defining it as conflict when it may be sharing to someone else)...I see lying by omission which is withholding sharing and manipulation. I don't see a bad person or even a bad choice...I see a real choice which seeks to change others' stuff through assumption and self-negation.

I really think I am of limited aid to you because what I think I would have to do is to marry myself...and then enforce boundaries...and I'm not sure my mind bends that way. I wish it would, though. I'm going to work on it...possibly making my DH into my mother (would that be disrespectful?)...oh, that brought to mind...what I saw was my father being the CA, and putting it all on my mother, if only she would be different...which really speaks to me in old ways...I did play that with DH...and he played my father's role (through my eyes) and I did my mother's.

You're not either, MT. You're you. Not right or wrong, monster or angel...fully, terribly, wonderfully human. Entirely. I'm willing to go there, on my drive to the dentist and home...maybe I would change all I'm asking of you to consider if I can bend that way in my mind...

Thank you for being here, for your time and effort in responding, clarifying, sharing and your existence. I know God's reaching for me through you...to bring me along, remind me, maybe, offer new...I don't know. I just know you're important and you can choose not to be here, as well.

I honor your choice.

LA

Not at all. To me it's appreciation. Distinct from, yet it may coincide with debt.


Ok, I confused you here. She told me she didn't throw it at me, that she threw it at the wall.

I stated that I (MT) don't throw things and don't act violently. I thought you were asking me if I threw things or punched walls, etc, in my home. I don't. She does.


Yes, this is what I want to do. I am working on my own clarity in order to stand firmly in reality.


Yes.

I heard again, as I left to go to work, her tell me she wished I wouldn't come home. She didn't wish an accident on me this time, but the same message was there. I'm keeping her prisoner. I'm taking away her choices, etc. I don't have that power, and I'm doing nothing of the sort. A few hours later she called me and asked me to come home early. She wanted me home so she'd feel safer. There was a burglary on our block yesterday.

It's the comparison of me against the fantasy man she believes she's entitled to that drives this hatred and hypervigilence to my faults, to my mistakes, etc. Yet when reality comes knocking, I'm good enough.


I am healing regardless. I hope she chooses to join me, but I'm doing this whether she does or not. I had a really interesting talk with my parents on Sunday. My brother and I talked to them about how we felt about our childhood, about the music and the lack of choice we felt we had. We talked about how we both felt we overcompensated for our perception that we had no control over our lives and pursuits by immersing ourselves in them now, by making this determination, this stubborn self indulgence a central part of our characters. Defiant, reactive. I had to respond to my parent's defensiveness a couple of times reassuring them that they did nothing wrong, they made the best choices they could have, and that we are responsible for our choices - our choice to percieve the way we did, our choice to see the lack of what we associated with normal as more important than making the most of the opportunities we had. The choice to go through the motions and not utilize my education to its fullest was mine alone, whether I justified it by saying that I was being forced to do something I didn't want to do or not, it was my mistake. My parents have responsibility in it, just as I do. Good stuff, overall. Interesting too that my brother was right there with me discussing this, really deeply understanding in a non-judgmental way.


No, I wouldn't say that. I would say my choice to avoid the consequence of her anger, etc., stopped me. I want to respect regardless. Nothing contingent there. The things I have tied up in contingencies have to do with restructuring our relationship, with redesigning it, with intimacy and sharing. Safety.

This is one of my responses. I also confront her, and I will also have a rational conversation about it. I have been focusing on gaining clarity and confirmation of an attack. It is usually denied as she dances around me - it's almost impossible to have a straightforward conversation with her, especially in this scenario. Recently she has taken to saying things like "What does my opinion matter? You're going to do what you want to anyway." when I ask her her opinion. For example, the past couple of evenings I asked her if she minded if I moved her car when I got home. She responded the way I mentioned above. She then adds in "It didn't matter to you Friday night." I told her I didn't realize that it would bother her on Friday. I'm asking her now. I want to be considerate. She won't communicate her wishes, but rather holds on to the hurt of me somehow going against her unspoken wishes. She hasn't taken responsibility for her wishes now that she has the opportunity, but rather tries to guilt trip me. I end up coming off as insensitive when I go out of my way to consider her wishes. And then she goes on to talk about how her needs don't matter. I see her sacrifice herself, her needs, in order to gain some sort of leverage against me. Something that only seems to end up with her hurting.


I have.


It would mean I'm human. I feel guilty for what I've done.


I understand and I tried to be clear that your statement triggered something in me - not that you did something to me with your opinion.


If you ever get the chance, pick up a book called "Change your Brain, Change your Life" by Dr. Amen. Really interesting look at the brain. In it he talks about how dysfunction in the basal ganglia (don't quote me on this, because I'm going entirely from memory) often presents as CA. He talks about his own struggles with these symptoms and his personal brain scans bear this out. So yes, my understanding is that there is a physiological basis for CA. However, just because we have hands doesn't mean we can use our fists indiscriminately.


Actually, that was my response. I basically said "you are saying that me moving the cars was abusive? Oh." and left it at that.


Interesting point. The objective is to remain blameless, to hide away all our shame. So in this respect it's all about blame.


No, I don't think it's this deep. I think I see her actions as violent, an expression of her feelings, from her, her own sources. It's the release of energy, and the maintenance of an aroused state. Excitement. The need to remain aroused comes from her, from her FOO. I'm not trying to parent her in any way. I'm letting her be her, letting her work her stuff out. I'm not forcing her into any box, coercing her or otherwise trying to control her. She is who she is, my equal, not someone I can make better or worse. I can support her desire to grow as a person, to heal, but I can't do it for her. I can't make that choice for her or pretend to know what's right for her.


Two people interested in communicating. My WW hates me for "speaking out of both sides of my mouth" as she puts it. She doesn't seem to me to be interested in hearing me or understanding me, and this sort of misunderstanding/misspeaking frustrates her. She doesn't like to feel frustration. I'm to blame for the feeling she doesn't like.


My W/WW often wants to be rescued from her own feelings. I suppose this is how I'm not really doing my job in her mind when she acts out.


I think it's certainly a signal to look within for me. I think it was a poor attempt at actually sharing my inner world. Came across as condescending, mean, etc.


Highlighted one word in your quote, and I think this is significant in my changes. I choose to be. I choose to accept myself, to assert myself, my feelings, my perception as mine. Of me. This is what I have been sacrificing previously, where my resentment comes from. Satisfying cravings does not make me anything. It's not a valid goal for me (unless it's healthy nourishment I'm seeking). When I sacrificed myself in order to gain something from my W, satisfying a craving in my mind, I put that satisfaction above me, more important than the me that wanted it. Like a junky trying to get a fix, doing anything. I no longer permit myself to act this way.


I would say both do. One is an expression of intellectual understanding, and the other is the emotional response to this understanding.


This is the flipping of my own practice of recognizing the antisocial consequences of beliefs I hold and questioning the value of continuing to hold these beliefs. We can't change what another does - influence, yes, determine, no. I think one of the many benefits of relationship is to question beliefs together, to hone oneself, to better understand the world and the way we interact with it. I think truly challenging is an act of sharing. I think even playing devil's advocate is an act of sharing. Choosing to share this thought might change someone's life, even if it means little to you at the moment you share it.


I was referring to you saying there would be NO sorrow, etc. I think the idea that ALL problems can be solved is fantasy, and the difference between the extreme you presented (or the way I'm interpretting it) and my suggestion seem to me to be the difference between outright control of another person and intended influence.

Seeing the belief that the person used to justify his murder as the problem rather than the person him/herself seems to me to be healthy. Without that belief, the act would likely not have happened. Let's look at this conversely. I'm sure you can agree that the belief that seatbelts save lives has led to more people surviving car crashes. If someone gets in a car and holds a rebellious viewpoint that seatbelts are another way the man keeps you down and doesn't wear his belt because he's so intent on being anti-establishment, what's ultimately to blame for his death in a car crash? Various organizations have worked hard to get the public to believe that seat belts save lives. This effort has influenced seat belt preventable deaths. People still make the personal choice not to heed good advice, but the effort to influence the public is worthwhile.

We hadn't put a line item in the budget for this catagory and I treated it the way we routinely did in the past.


Yes. I read a question mark on the end of that last sentence, and a sarcastic tone, like this is totally blamefilled, and I'm being dense and not seeing where/why. Is this just my paranoia?


Interesting, because my self awareness is that I try and use any and all information about me to better myself. I reflect on my actions even when I believe it's simply abuse on my W's part. I sincerely want to function better in relationships, and to pass up this opportunity is wasteful to me.


I really think your understanding of CA here is different than mine. I don't think CA behavior comes out of intellectually defining a situation as conflict, but rather reacting under a certain set of circumstances emotionally and intellectually that combine to create a very aroused state. Flooding. I don't think it comes from defining, but more from inability to process fast enough, misfiring in the brain, etc. I see the common choice in people who experience this state to change it by manipulating their surroundings, which in itself is disrespectful, but it's not essential. I've made great strides in this regard. I've learned to be aware of this, and to accept this discomfort and do my best to respond rather than react.


And this is where I am different. I have owned my part in my feelings. I have recognized the fantasy component to the "if only"s. I don't blame my WW or my W for my feelings. They are mine to experience, resolve, learn from, etc. I want my W to be who she is without guilt, without feeling solely responsible for how I feel. Considerate? Sure. Responsible for triggering my feelings? Sure. Change who she is because it triggers unpleasant feelings in me? No. If I can't deal with it I can change or leave. And vice versa.


Thank you too.

Thank you for clarifying that she stated she wasn't throwing the hand-mirror at you.

"I hear you saying that you are choosing to act violently and want me to know your action is not directed at me, is that correct?"

See...clarity comes from reality. I didn't figure you threw things...I don't figure you act violently...and I want to know if you revoked your permission to, fear doing so, and/or fear your own anger...that image...? I'd like to know more about why you don't act violently, please.

And yes, I did ask you if you did...or didn't. For each thing you see her do which riles you...did you in the past? Adolescence? Young adulthood?

Disclaimer: My brain is in a really unfocused cycle right now...my own clarity is on vacation.

And you're saying she throws objects...was that the first time? Or has she done it before and you stated you felt threatened, believing she was throwing an object at you (because you were hit with it, nearly hit with it)...so she now states where she's throwing the object?

"Yes, this is what I want to do. I am working on my own clarity in order to stand firmly in reality."

Does this mean you're okay with not knowing her stuff right now? Not assuming what she's saying is old or new...rather, not knowing until she tells you her stuff? That was really tough for me...why I'm asking twice.

"I heard again, as I left to go to work, her tell me she wished I wouldn't come home. She didn't wish an accident on me this time, but the same message was there. I'm keeping her prisoner. I'm taking away her choices, etc. I don't have that power, and I'm doing nothing of the sort. A few hours later she called me and asked me to come home early. She wanted me home so she'd feel safer. There was a burglary on our block yesterday.

It's the comparison of me against the fantasy man she believes she's entitled to that drives this hatred and hypervigilence to my faults, to my mistakes, etc. Yet when reality comes knocking, I'm good enough."

Okay...you want clarity, to stand in reality, and to bring it. When she shares, "I wish you wouldn't come home", a listen and repeat would be "I hear you do not want your husband and father of your child to come home to you tonight, is that correct?"

If that's what you're hearing...if you're hearing, "I just heard you saying you hate me and wish you wouldn't see me again, and that I'm keeping you a prisoner in our marriage."

That's listen and repeat with filter. Both of these share; one shares more. Would you consider using listen and repeat when she says something new...and listen and repeat with filter when she repeats something often?

In your other post, I heard you say you do listen and repeat to clarify and confirm...and that struck me...might just be me...because I see it as clarify OR confirm...and that's a conjunction of a different color altogether to me.

Clarify, not to her, but to you...meaning, here's what you heard...offered as sharing...what you heard...so she can choose to clarify (no, I meant...) or confirm...(yes, that's what I just said). Not you clarifying her words...and this may not be what you were saying...what I heard.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hadn't looked at it in any other direction before. Thought it worth sharing.

I can't see standing in reality without listen and repeat. I really can't. Without it, there is assumption...even that you heard her correctly...tiny, tiny stuff...big differences. Assumption that she knows you heard her...if you don't listen and repeat.

And you hearing her is as important as acknowledging what you heard...to live from respect and enforce your boundaries.

You wouldn't choose to do it with the intent of getting her to do it...you would do it so you can stand in reality...clarify or confirm...act respectful because your intent is to live from respect.

And it seems, you did it in your sleep. You acknowledged. How did you feel? Discounted to be awakened by her? Not considered or valued? Did you expect your act of consideration would net you consideration? Be valued?

Time for me to 'fess up that we had this same issue...car parking swapping thingie back in the bad ol' days...and one of our first ENs discussions included this from me..."I feel attention, appreciation and consideration when you swap the cars when you come home once a week. What do you feel when I do it?" I was the one in Plan A...and yet, I asked, stated and made it an act of love...not past the point of resentment.

And he began to do this...more often than once a week. Within two months, the issue was resolved...our 20-year-old son moved out, so no more swapping in the driveway. Yay.

"It's the comparison of me against the fantasy man she believes she's entitled to that drives this hatred and hypervigilence to my faults, to my mistakes, etc. Yet when reality comes knocking, I'm good enough."

How does you choosing this belief benefit your marriage? You?

Thank you for sharing about your FOO on Sunday. Big kudos to your parents, yourself and your brother for bravely, kindly and lovingingly connecting through discovery.

"No, I wouldn't say that. I would say my choice to avoid the consequence of her anger, etc., stopped me. I want to respect regardless. Nothing contingent there. The things I have tied up in contingencies have to do with restructuring our relationship, with redesigning it, with intimacy and sharing. Safety."

I'm not clear here. You're saying that your choice to avoid stopped you...not her anger. Okay...got that. And you're saying you want to act from respect regardless of her stuff or your desire to avoid? The rest lost me...and again, I go to my disclaimer earlier. I think what I hear is that you want to live from intimacy and sharing, hence, safety, is that correct? Or are you saying you want to redesign your marriage, the whole thing, to be based in this?

I found that clarity and confirmation " I have been focusing on gaining clarity and confirmation of an attack."

Can you help me out with what you see as an attack? I ask because identifying crossed verbal, emotional and physical boundaries isn't about the attack...it's where the boundary is...and identifying when it's crossed. No clarification or confirmation required, IMO. Takes prestating the boundaries and listing your boundary enforcements...and doing before confrontation.

"It is usually denied as she dances around me - it's almost impossible to have a straightforward conversation with her, especially in this scenario."

Are you saying that she denies your statements of what is abusive? Are you saying you're looking for her to agree with your boundaries?

"Recently she has taken to saying things like "What does my opinion matter? You're going to do what you want to anyway." when I ask her her opinion.

Stop asking for her opinion...state truth, "I know you will choose to share your opinion when you do. I look forward to hearing it."

"For example, the past couple of evenings I asked her if she minded if I moved her car when I got home. She responded the way I mentioned above. She then adds in "It didn't matter to you Friday night." I told her I didn't realize that it would bother her on Friday. I'm asking her now. I want to be considerate."

Just a tip...here's where sharing can be potent for you..."I have a boundary of consideration. I want to live up to my boundaries."

"She won't communicate her wishes, but rather holds on to the hurt of me somehow going against her unspoken wishes."

There are DJs in here...unless she clearly stated that she is withholding her desires and nursing her resentment of your less than psychic abilities.

"She hasn't taken responsibility for her wishes now that she has the opportunity,"

When did she not have the opportunity?

"but rather tries to guilt trip me."

Ohhhh...here's one which triggers me. Guilt trips are taken in our own perception when others state their stuff and we hear it as disapproving of us. "I don't like you saying that" isn't abusive...it's about them.

"I end up coming off as insensitive when I go out of my way to consider her wishes."

Insensitive to whom? Why are you choosing to betray yourself and go out of your way? If you're not doing acts of love from your choice...then you aren't acting your love, are you? And you're not acting considerately, either. You're giving to get and that's why you're measuring the response as being seen as insensitive.

I'm only highlighting what you do to you...because I did, also.

Hurt like heck. Obscured reality and I lost my footing...had a firm grip on my intent, though.

"And then she goes on to talk about how her needs don't matter. I see her sacrifice herself, her needs, in order to gain some sort of leverage against me. Something that only seems to end up with her hurting."

Clarify, please. "I hear you saying that you do not allow your needs to be met, is that correct?" State your stuff with your filter...to get somewhere other than this blame-shifting fest...and know where your DJs are. How would you feel if you chose to believe she wants to hurt back in anyway to get you to stop hurting her?

And you're not. What emotions would you have in contrast to believing she's trying to power-over you to relieve her own pain, like shoveling it on you...to free her?

Share where your pain comes from...what beliefs you are tracing it to...and wait to be shared with.

Now, I'm not supportive of you when she says, "You're gonna do what you want to anyway" and "It didn't matter to you Friday night." I want to hear, "So I said, Stop. You're defining me. If you continue, I'll remove myself for ten minutes to calm my anger and fear."

I'd love to hear that.

Or

"So I said, That's defining me...telling me what was or is important or not important to me. Are you communicating that you felt my switching the cars for your convenience was an act of inconsideration Friday night?"

This is real respect...not answering...soothing...explaining. We can have calm tones and killer words. We can have calm tones, respectful words and still counter, refute, trivialize, etc. I don't want you to not state your truth because she twists it. I don't want you to withhold your acts from respect because she mocks it. I want you to live in freedom, respect and to act intimately...not dependent on her stuff at all.

Which takes you bringing truth and living in it. And I know you know this. Why am I not getting that you're doing this...because I don't hear you feeling thrilled? Delighted? Joyous?

I'm looking at my own expectations. I'm hearing "this isn't working" instead. May NOT be you...I'm half. My expectations and filter are in my half. I got stuff I haven't even disovered in that linty filter...all built-up with stuff from years and years.

I asked you "What would happen to you if you acted abusively before?"

And you answered: "I have."

And I don't hear what happened to you...then I asked "What would that mean to your self?"

And you said: "It would mean I'm human. I feel guilty for what I've done."

You're responsible for all you do and don't do. Period. Where's the guilty coming in? And again, what does that mean to your self, your authentic self?

Where we do not live up to our boundaries, we amend. No guilt or shame...those signal us not living up to others' or our own boundaries...amends depends on figuiring out which and whom to direct our amends to...

My question here straight-out is...I'm wondering if you choose not to enforce progressive, predetermined boundaries because you don't live up to your own or not...if guilt frees you (falsely) from something...or frees her?

I truly believe in the reflective balance...this is me looking for supporting you in clarity, not condemnation...

And my way may not be yours for clarity. Which is why I really do appreciate your consideration.

"I understand and I tried to be clear that your statement triggered something in me - not that you did something to me with your opinion."

Thank you for clarifying.

Would you consider that CA feels like self-protection, a false payoff, when in actuality, it damages us from the inside out, as well as our relationships?

I'm wondering if the book you recommended isn't the one my DH just purchased and has begun reading. I'll ask about the title. I get it after him. He conveyed it was already interesting, talking about brain structures and brain scans...using equipment which pre-dates cat-scans and MRI's.

I do understand that part of CA is from our fight or flight part of our old brain...a survival technique from long ago.

"Interesting point. The objective is to remain blameless, to hide away all our shame. So in this respect it's all about blame."

Next step for me, then, is to ask you if blame (feeling blamed, blaming) can be a signal to self-image, not self? That the emotions and perception is being filtered through self-image, not self?

"Two people interested in communicating. My WW hates me for "speaking out of both sides of my mouth" as she puts it. She doesn't seem to me to be interested in hearing me or understanding me, and this sort of misunderstanding/misspeaking frustrates her. She doesn't like to feel frustration. I'm to blame for the feeling she doesn't like."

If misunderstanding/misspeaking frustrates her...if that's her truth...then why would you choose to believe she's not interested in hearing or understanding you? And this is another emotion she believes you cause in her?

"Two people interested in communicating." That wasn't true at the beginning for us, MT, if those two people were you talking about DH and me. We believed we were communicating...until we did exercises, we had no clue how far off we'd been for years and years.

And my DH's purpose in doing the communication exercises were not because he was interested...he was terrified. His commitment to himself is why he chose to do them, anyway. He was in an angry, done-to, blaming spiral at the time. His very rebellious feelings put him there, doing them.

He didn't want to connect with me...he didn't want to feel love for me again...he didn't want to suffer more. Doesn't take interest...takes willingness and my accepting not his whys but his choices...which took me focusing on mine. Doing it, anyway.

My DH doesn't like to feel guilt. My emotional Achilles' heel is rejection. We really fed off each other's stuff with these two signals. You said your WW's is frustration...was that your W's, also? What is yours?

"My W/WW often wants to be rescued from her own feelings. I suppose this is how I'm not really doing my job in her mind when she acts out."

W/WW--does that mean pre-A she wanted to be rescued as well as now? Do you believe you're holding yourself to healthy boundary enforcements when she acts out?

"Like a junky trying to get a fix, doing anything. I no longer permit myself to act this way." Do you have cravings? What signals do you have since you've revoked this permission?

"We can't change what another does - influence, yes, determine, no."

We cannot even influence unless they allow our influence, and how much or how little.

"I think one of the many benefits of relationship is to question beliefs together, to hone oneself, to better understand the world and the way we interact with it."

What if you each better understand the world differently?

"I think truly challenging is an act of sharing. I think even playing devil's advocate is an act of sharing."

Why?

"Choosing to share this thought might change someone's life, even if it means little to you at the moment you share it."

I fully believe that sharing your stuff changes the entire world...the butterfly effect. I don't believe that if it means little to you that it's true. "I like peas" for instance. The ACT of sharing "I like peas" ripples...the actuality that you do, doesn't.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And yes, I believe we cannot predict in any fashion how our choice to share will ripple...what form it will take. I do believe that sharing ripples and benefits and contributes...and I do so blindly, without evidence that my own sharing changed anything. I have faith it does.

I really liked you highlighting the "be", btw.

I've got an appointment now...I'll be back.

LA

I was violent towards my younger brothers in adolescence. I don't really remember the point where I made the choice, but I made the choice not to act this way anymore. I think I stopped taking my anger out on them and started taking it out on myself. I started smoking, etc. Self destructive behavior rather than aggressive behavior. I never was violent outside of my family. In fact when I was picked on when I was much younger or when I was robbed at knife point (a few times) my response was to just let it happen and not assert myself for fear of getting hurt or worse. Go limp, let the person with the problem act out what they think they need to and eventually leave me alone.

As for my own anger, I don't fear it as much as want to ensure I control the expression of it. I know I have expressed it in ways that are not acceptable to me now in the past, and I don't want to behave this way now. Does this make sense?


In abstract theory, that's the only reason it would rile me. I'm playing the same game, going through the same patterns, I see myself in her, parts of myself that I haven't owned, taken responsibility for and nurtured and incorporated into my being. This is why there's so much drive to blame them on someone else and absolve myself of these defects.

In practice, I can't say I've identified everything. And the other side of this is that I really don't feel riled up by much of what she does. I think this is part of a self deceiptful practice - because if I don't feel riled it would mean that I'm comfortable with myself, that I own myself. While I think this is true to some extent, I think I'm actively denying the feelings too. Confusing.


Yes, she's done this before. No, I haven't really felt threatened by it. I don't feel threatened by her violence. I feel more threatened by the emotional and verbal stuff. I think she's more concerned about how her actions will look in a court of law, and that's why she's clarifying. She thinks she has given me leverage against her in a custody situation.


Yes.


No, I'm hearing: "I wish you would get in an accident and die. That would solve this problem. I wouldn't have to be the bad guy and all the stress I feel will be gone." I've heard this before.


Ok, semantics here. The practice serves both functions, but not at the same time.


It was one of those "there she goes again" moments. I don't like saying that because it demonstrates that I put her in a box, labeled her. I felt discounted. I also don't really think that she sees any consideration in my act. I was considering myself, and in my mind it shouldn't have made the slightest difference to her whether I moved the cars. I didn't have any expectations of what my act would do for me other than I would be able to stay in bed rather than move the car in the morning.


Very good. Asking for what you want is really the only way to go. Specifics.


It's this trap that I thought I was free of of trying to pinpoint the beliefs that she holds that if only I could change, this whole thing would crumble. It allows me to feel like I'm actively doing something when in reality I'm not taking much action. Analyze analyze analyze. Implementing's missing.


The contingency thing is a bit of a sore spot for me. I want to act rather than react. To me, saying through action something along the lines of "I won't love you until you stop hurting me" or something along those lines is contingent love. I don't want to give love or respect this way. My WW's MO is "why should I respect you? You don't give me any reason to." Totally contingent. My respect is not contingent on what she does. However, my involvement in the relationship, my level of intimacy and security IS contingent on her actions. I can't share myself fully with someone I don't trust. I think that would be counterproductive to share my humanity with someone who's addicted to the superhumanity of her AP. It plays into the dynamic of demonizing the marriage and haloing the A. The more flawed and human I am, the less appealing I am. I'm not trying to present myself as flawless, I'm just choosing not to share some of the deeper, more ravaged parts of my soul with her under the current conditions.

Maybe this is where I'm going wrong.


What I see as an attack? When someone tries to tear me down that's an attack. When someone leaves their opinion behind and talks about my being as problematic, etc., that's an attack. When the objective of the other person seems to be getting me to accept blame rather than to address a problem together, that's an attack. I'm not sure how these things have to do with prestated boundaries.


You know, it's one of these damned if I do, damned if I don't situations. If I ask for her opinion because I want us to make a decision together, by consensus, then she does one of these things, but if I don't, I am being controlling and playing right into this image she has of me doing everything I want to do without considering her. The other option is not doing anything, which isn't really an option to me.


Yes, I'm percieving a choice in there that frames her in a certain way that may have nothing to do with the choice she actually made. However, when she doesn't state her wish but instead refers to how I didn't ask her last time, what am I supposed to think? I think the point is that I shouldn't think, I should clarify. This is where I'm screwing up in general. I analyze and don't act precisely when I should act and not analyze.


She didn't have the opportunity to weigh in on my moving the car when she was asleep.


Wow, I did do this. I overstepped my boundary and then got upset with her when I didn't get what I thought going out my way would entitle me to.


Because I'm focusing too much on what I'm doing wrong.


Guilt means to me that I've done something that wasn't right according to my code. It's a sign that I need to change my behavior. I have changed my behavior as a result. It's a signal, something a responsible person responds to.


I think so. I do have difficulty with my own boundaries, self discipline.


No, to me it's not self-protection. It's apparent that it's damaging me and my relationships when it happens. In fact, it's a shameful experience, and that just adds to the flooding. It may be that I have a different definition of it than you do, or a different perspective on it.


Interesting point. I think it's more to do with her fear of being wrong, of misunderstanding and admitting she didn't understand that's painful to her. She expects to "get it" hearing it once, and if she didn't then it creates pain in her. I think you're right that she wants to communicate, she's just frustrated that the act is difficult and requires self acceptance and reasonable humility. You have to be willing to not understand in order to. The first step towards knowing is to admit you don't know.

DS has reacted to mistakes he's made in the past couple of days by saying "I promise I won't make anymore mistakes". I was somewhat upset by this. I talked to him about the "mistakes" he made (he was going to put a spoon he had just put in his mouth back into the cheese container) and tried to point out how valuable it could be to have made them (he learned something new and now is a better "germ buster"). I really don't want him to get the message that you don't want to make mistakes, and I don't know where he has. Mistakes are how we learn. Fear of making mistakes prohibits growth.


I think you were interested, you just didn't know how to do it well. I know in my M we believed we were doing better than most, we talked about everything, we shared so much. Yet we communicated very poorly. I recognize this now, she recognizes this now. Does this mean we were in denial about our communication before? Does this mean we were believing what we wanted to? Were we both participating in a fantasy and now are in reality?


I think the worst sensation I have had is some wrong-doing on my part being exposed and thinking "now it's over, she's going to leave me for sure" and the cold sweat starts and my head spins. What would you call that? Guilt mixed with rejection? Shame?


Yes.


I'm getting clearer and clearer on what healthy is. I'm also more disciplined about holding myself to these boundaries.


Yeah I have cravings, and I think this statement is not absolutely true. I do still engage in addictive behaviors. I think participating on this board is one of them. It doesn't have life damaging consequences (the potential IS there though), so it might not exactly qualify. I filter everything through my health screen. If it doesn't meet muster, I drop the idea. I feel good about being healthy now.


It's always their choice to act on our influence.


You do. No two people understand it the same way.


It has to do with the butterfly effect. Your statement below makes my point for me. I'm going to go out and paint "I like peas" on the side of my car in big letters. Impact a lot of people, change lives. Has nothing to do with peas.

Having a thought that's in the "devil's advocate" category is still something that has some degree of divine inspiration to me. Sharing something divine, whether it has divine meaning or not to you is still a significant act of sharing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm back...welcome to our Friday!

About the gift/budget thingie. When I wrote that, the question mark was to say am I correct without saying it...what I was hearing you said you did...not necessarily what you actually did...I couldn't know. A lazy woman's listen and repeat.

"Yes. I read a question mark on the end of that last sentence, and a sarcastic tone, like this is totally blamefilled, and I'm being dense and not seeing where/why. Is this just my paranoia?"

Does it have to be paranoia? Can it just be habitual perception? What a great listen and repeat with filter you did here, for me. Thank you. In "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" sarcasm is abusive...and I believe it. I've stopped...until I do it again. I did it in a post to someone here in the last month and they called me on it. They were correct. I appreciate your sharing with filter because that wasn't what I was doing...I figured out when I'm most likely to do it is when I go into the tone of the other person (and I haven't seen sarcasm from you, that I can remember), when I feel bit and bite back. I used to only see sarcasm in the witty department...getting my new ears in place, it's hard for me to get back to that place...just seems hurtful, full of judgment and self-image.

I had the question though, in my repeat, do you believe you truly acknowledged her stuff? You may have...I don't know. I know that acknowledgment is key to enforcing boundaries...and may be the key to you permitting yourself to not take her repeating her stuff, which may give you the idea acknowledgment isn't enough...needs blood.

Thorough acknowledgment and then if she repeats, removal. Not focusing getting her to see you owned, amended and will not do again...focusing on the acknowledgment.

What do you think?

Btw, I asked DH about his new book last night, and yes...it is the same one you recommended by Dr. Amen. Wow...that's pretty amazing to me...because my DH doesn't read. This is new for him...taking it to work, reading it on breaks...and he's loving it. This isn't a small coincidence...this is something big to me. Now, if I had just gotten that book...not so big. I read about two or three books a week (novels and self-help). It was a resentment point with my DH before..."You KNOW I fall asleep after two pages when I read!" So, I read at work on breaks...not at home during UA time. Or the opportunity for UA time. And this book was recommended by his IC.

And I DJ'd about the CA being made in our brain...and you caught me. Hey, help me out...name a DJ a DJ. I haven't read the book and I assumed it was saying you can't help being a CA'r if your brain is made that way. Would've benefited me to re-read the title of the book, eh?

LOL

I'm sorry. I did that.

"I really think your understanding of CA here is different than mine. I don't think CA behavior comes out of intellectually defining a situation as conflict, but rather reacting under a certain set of circumstances emotionally and intellectually that combine to create a very aroused state. Flooding."

I don't see us as far off on this...before you flood, you think...you don't flood without perceiving something...that's not my "intellectually defining" and yet it is...it's the automatic perception of conflict...seeing confrontation instead of sharing I was thinking of...which triggers the flooding.

"I don't think it comes from defining, but more from inability to process fast enough, misfiring in the brain, etc."

I'll have to read the book. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know that DJs were my DH's reason for conflict avoidance..."It's just gonna be you hurting me if I say anything." That predictive choice is in there...doesn't mean it's all of it. Now, his reasoning wasn't far-fetched...it was reasonable. His choice remained, though, to not state "I don't want to share because I don't feel safe sharing with you." That was really important...and ironically, tells self you can be afraid and do it anyway.

"I see the common choice in people who experience this state to change it by manipulating their surroundings, which in itself is disrespectful, but it's not essential. I've made great strides in this regard. I've learned to be aware of this, and to accept this discomfort and do my best to respond rather than react."

I believe you. Have you chosen to state the discomfort as you feel it during conversations, also?

"And this is where I am different. I have owned my part in my feelings. I have recognized the fantasy component to the "if only"s. I don't blame my WW or my W for my feelings. They are mine to experience, resolve, learn from, etc. I want my W to be who she is without guilt, without feeling solely responsible for how I feel."

What if her guilt and her choice to feel responsible for what she is not is essential to her and her journey? Would you want her to have different, non-guilty signals? Or would you say your choice to see her as feeling guilty about who she is, what she does and did, and perceiving she is responsible for your feelings is a DJ which is someway works for you? I totally believe you get your feelings as your own...your signals. Wishing that for others is natural, which doesn't mean it's not destructive. Wanting takes it to a higher place...the tingling of manipulation...wanting her to feel, think, be different.

I'm not saying you're doing this...this is finesse, not a blow...this is considering your own wants...motivations, hence, direction. This is not me saying you're doing this--I'm asking what resonates?

Again, my focus is on living in reality. With clarity. From respect and truth. Means healthy boundary enforcements...and finding the source of our reactivity...because revoking the permission to react, alone, tells self you're doing it wrong, rather than finding the belief, the other permissions inside yourself, which you react from, as well.

"Considerate? Sure. Responsible for triggering my feelings? Sure. Change who she is because it triggers unpleasant feelings in me? No. If I can't deal with it I can change or leave. And vice versa."

What would constitute you not being able to deal with it?

How are you today?

LA

I guess we cross posted! Good ol' Friday...


In this case it was paranoia because I was confident this was my misreading - I didn't believe it at all. If it were habitual perception I expect I wouldn't have doubted my perception. Maybe not.


I believe I do this all the time in conversations with my WW.


I do too, to a point.


I'm far more aware of this myself, and I choose not to act on the impulse. I used to use sarcasm in my humor - and even though I don't think it was abusive when I used it, I choose to err on the side of caution now.


This is a difficult question for me to answer. "Truly" implies I could superficially acknowledge her stuff - go through the motions. Yet acknowledgement is an action from the acknowledger to the acknowledged - the acknowledged needs to respond to the acknowledger, acknowledging the acknowledgement in order for true acknowledgement (or acknowledgement truly) to take place. Silly wordiness aside, the point I'm making is that true acknowledgement requires a functional feedback/communication loop. If both participants are not open to communication, true acknowledgement doesn't take place. I can acknowledge that she spoke, I can acknowledge the words she used, etc., without her feedback on my acknowledgement, but I can't acknowledge the meaning of her words without her confirming my understanding. So if I try and get acknowledgement from her that she was saying something and she's dishonest about it (attack, shield/deflect, reposition, attack, shield/deflect) the dance continues. This is not to say there isn't value in acknowledging even if she's dishonest - I choose to grow and change whether she does or not.


Thoughts, LOL.


Interesting. Let me know what you think of it. I've come to almost expect things like this. Recently I've noticed a lot of funny coincidences - for example, I'm driving, listening to the radio when I pass a sign that reads "slow down" exactly as the singer sings those lines. There have been a few of those.


I'm not so good with the labeling - rather, I choose not to label. Don't know if I would acknowledge it as such or just recognize that you percieved something that wasn't part of what I was saying/what I saw. I'll give it a shot though!


I have such an urge to say "don't be" or "I wish you wouldn't feel that way" because it's not an issue to me. But I take a step back and see you're sorry because you've done something against your code and sharing your feelings with me. Or it could be that you've crossed your own boundary and (if I'm reading you correctly) are seeing it as trespassing on my property and apologizing to me for how you expect I'd react to it. This is the sort of thought process I have when I react to something in an unhealthy way and then try and reframe it in a healthy way. I sometimes come up confused. So, even though it's not a big deal here, please clarify. I think this is what I need to do in this situation - ask.


Ok, still not 100% with you yet. I don't think I perceive "conflict" - I don't think it's this concept I react to, but a combination of factors that take me out of my comfort zone, make me aroused, etc. Wow, look how passive/reactive I made myself in that statement. No choice, powerless to external forces. However, I think a lot of this stuff is reflexive, automatic. I don't mean it's hopeless to change, I mean the choice in this is not obvious. I tend to think that defining something as conflict is done in retrospect, whereas the CA reaction (in my understanding, which is not in any way expert) happens before conflict has been established. For instance, as long as my boundaries are not crossed, I can be involved in conflict with someone without flooding. If my boundary is crossed in some way, even without conflict present, I may begin the flooding process. So a boundary infringement here, a self critical internal response there, etc., and flooding takes place. I would argue that it's not the conflict that I'm avoiding or responding to, but components that happen to be present in conflict, and the association happens after the fact. Perhaps, were I a full on avoider, I would make the leap that conflict contains a strong likelyhood of producing this reaction in me and then look for the problem situation in order to avoid it (which I DON'T do) - which seems to be what you're saying.


Ok, I see this exact thing with my W. I see the choice here, 100%. I'm not sure this is the same thing I'm talking about. I see fear, fear of him being hurt, here. But I don't really see the automatic reaction that paralizes you.


Sometimes, but at the very least I talk to myself about it. It's one of those situations where I find I need to do that (not out loud). I liken it to when I was riding my bike on the ice (studded snow tires) and the ice was unstable and rutted. I talked to myself to keep me thinking straight, not panic, etc. Same reaction underlies both scenarios (in my opinion), so the same approach makes sense. I need a voice I can trust, that I can rely on. I provide that, but I can only provide it if I can acknowledge that I'm in need of it, and I can only do this by owning these feelings through stating them (even if it's done silently).


I get this, I really do. I don't think I stated this well. I don't want to make her feel anything - if she feels guilt, it's hers to feel, not something I have power over, nor do I want it.


I want her to be healthy. I have selfish motivations for this as well as compassionate ones. I think this is where I get these lines crossed. I think healthy is different in some areas. So I want her to be different so she can be healthy. Do I know how to get her there? I have enough to do to get myself there. I want to support her as she gets there.


Depression, inability to function in life. These things can't be blamed on her, but on my feelings about being in the situation. I'm growing and learning now, I'm getting healthier, gaining skills. I might decide that I don't want it before I'm unable to deal with it though.


Ok. I'm a little stressed. WW's bday is Sunday and I haven't gotten her anything. I'm drawing a complete blank again. I'm thinking flowers, a nice bottle of wine and dinner, but this isn't thoughtful enough. She's been talking about wanting an expensive item that I can't afford, but nothing else is calling out to me. So I'm stressed about this. What do I do?

Thanks!

"What I see as an attack? When someone tries to tear me down that's an attack. When someone leaves their opinion behind and talks about my being as problematic, etc., that's an attack. When the objective of the other person seems to be getting me to accept blame rather than to address a problem together, that's an attack. I'm not sure how these things have to do with prestated boundaries."

The boundary setting comes in when you define further...when someone defines you, that crosses your boundary. Stating their opinion as fact of your being, not your actions (which you see clearly as separate, I believe). Does this apply to "I see you as <blank>?" When they do not state their perception/beliefs as fact...does that cross your boundary? What if you see this as someone crossing your boundary, not attacking you? Any difference?

When the stated objective of someone else is that they want you to accept blame for...not responsibility, not ownership...blame for what is not within your responsibility...then that crosses your boundary.

Am I clear on your boundary line? What is your first boundary enforcement when someone does this? The second? The third?

Will these enforcements reflect your own amends...first time, second time, when you cross these? Will these be limited to what you say aloud to others, to yourself in your head, or about others in your own head?

"You know, it's one of these damned if I do, damned if I don't situations. If I ask for her opinion because I want us to make a decision together, by consensus, then she does one of these things, but if I don't, I am being controlling and playing right into this image she has of me doing everything I want to do without considering her. The other option is not doing anything, which isn't really an option to me."

Both of your responses are about how you're being seen, the reaction you're getting...I don't see how they go to your choice to ask or not ask...which way holds you to your own boundary of respect?

I don't believe in damned if you and damned if you don't...humans cannot damn others...we only can damn ourselves...and I believe we do that through our perceptions, perspectives, beliefs and thoughts...through choice, not through actions. We bear consequences. I think it's a great signal of where our choices are coming from when we feel that way.

"Yes, I'm percieving a choice in there that frames her in a certain way that may have nothing to do with the choice she actually made. However, when she doesn't state her wish but instead refers to how I didn't ask her last time, what am I supposed to think?"

You just nailed a huge permission to DJ here...what else are supposed to think? We weren't taught to accept what we don't know...it's our core fear (unknown), our highest vulnerability...and our truest reality which we obscure. Don't think. When she doesn't state her wish, you don't know. The permission to leave yourself no choice but to think a certain way obscures the question..."You're stating I didn't ask you last time. What does that mean to you? I want to understand." Stops the defining, turns the focus back where it has power--in you, on you, your understanding...when we truly revoke our permission to assume anything...we get to a fresh place of perception, of acknowledgment, equality and respect. What I'm communicating from my side is that this is a vast network of molecular assumptions we make and take...which is how we don't stand in reality, edging away, twirling away, when our focus slingshots where we have no power.

That's a key phrase you stated....what are we supposed to think? I use suppose, should, have to as signals. And I direct them to myself. My DH saw that Dr. Amen addresses just those things in his book as ants...red ants...I don't know why I put that in there...lost my train of thought...except maybe because I felt acknowledgment that our own vastness is the mystery, not our spouses. And until we get what we don't know...they cannot be new...nor can we...they cannot be seen as changing or changed...nor can we see ourselves.

That's how we stop ourselves.

"I think the point is that I shouldn't think, I should clarify. This is where I'm screwing up in general. I analyze and don't act precisely when I should act and not analyze."

One way I caught my signals of shoulds is to replace them with "want"..."I think the point is that I don't want to think, I want to clarify. This is where I'm screwing up in general. I analyze and do not act precisely when I want to act not analyze."

To me, it's not semantics, though this process is captured through them. My signals change when I changed your sentences...did yours? We can signal ourselves through feelings, words (written and audible), images, touch, gestures--all tools to communication of what is symbolic at its base...not an exact science...not a step by step...so take the steps and match them to your symbols...your goals...what does this symbolize to me?

"I feel safer analyzing and assuming than clarifying. I can do it alone and not risk attack." If this could be one truth in you, your why, then you may then see where you attack yourself in this way and permit her to assume about you because you permit yourself to do so. Not in your boundaries.

My whys to assuming came from many different places in myself...I was looking for lines to live by and because I lived reactively, couldn't see any of them. Everything was case by case...situation by situation, reaction by reaction...my DJs showed me my deep desire to have lines not dependent on people...my desire for the truth...factual truths...and because I made through DJing the feeling I knew what I didn't know...is why I am freed in knowing I don't know...helped me to break my dependency on choosing my actions based on others...how I treated my DH based on how he treated me...and freed myself from living from my feelings (mostly).

Still working on all of this...which is why I greatly appreciate you choosing to share and reveal. I think in the way you described your adolescence...at some point you decided that's not who you really were or were going to be in regards to acting violently with your brothers. The going limp thing (a seemingly benign response) seemed at the time much better. I'm asking you to change your belief again, once you truly see that the non-responsive isn't benign.

"Wow, I did do this. I overstepped my boundary and then got upset with her when I didn't get what I thought going out my way would entitle me to."

This realization is what I've been sharing...we are immensely powerful within ourselves...and what we do behind our own backs, disguised in front of noses, grealty impacts our reality. Thank you for seeing this...not as bad, wrong, awful or inhuman. Very human and realistic...these are the processes we've asked for and lived by for a long time. Seeing them comes first...acknowledging...then revoking permission along with asking for highest honesty from ourselves...no bashing or judgment required. Discernment.

And I believe, NOT what you want. "Ahhh...not what I want. Not in my intent, my desires. I don't want this for myself."

Self-talk...as I believe it was meant to be...through awareness, not judgment.

"Because I'm focusing too much on what I'm doing wrong."

If you'll focus automatically too much on what you believe you're doing wrong...will you not, then, focus on what she is doing wrong? If that is where your thoughts dwell, there is your treasure. And I mean this to distill down to "wrong" as treasure...not you nor her nor your marriage.

"Yet we communicated very poorly. I recognize this now, she recognizes this now."

Good to know!

"Does this mean we were in denial about our communication before? Does this mean we were believing what we wanted to? Were we both participating in a fantasy and now are in reality?"

You both had the belief you were communicating...and doing it well. What may have changed as you guys went into Phase II, doing the same communicating, as you evolved each other into your source of pain and enemy-mind status, stopped working for you. It works, it works and it works until it doesn't work. We experienced each other as very connected in our communication...didn't know it takes mindful presence, intent and practice to really do so. Until we did.

Easy when you're with your life caretaker, united, as allies...even oneness...same process very hurtfilled and confusing when you're with your pain source, divided, as enemies. Part of the big-picture DJ is to see each other as enemies...rather than choosing to see yourselves as you truly are...married partners, equals...not one...two whole people in one union...and choose to have faith you will reconnect, even as you know you will disconnect.

Consciously.

"Guilt means to me that I've done something that wasn't right according to my code. It's a sign that I need to change my behavior. I have changed my behavior as a result. It's a signal, something a responsible person responds to."

Here's how I broke down guilt...my MC separated these two often similar signals...Guilt signals us not living up to other people's expectations...and shame signals that we didn't live up to our own.

Sometimes, they are the same expectations...sounds like you were responding in that vein...however, guilt, if we can tune ourselves into it as separate...can be a false signal...when your actions are disapproved of...not you crossing your own boundaries, you can still experience guilt...shame for not living up to your code or your pattern? Can be false...because often, underneath, we discover again and again perfection as our inner expectation...as your DS said, "I won't make any mistakes anymore"...so we can experience shame for what isn't shameful...not in our code, not reasonable.

Discernment...and I liked and support what you talked with DS about...and would add one question, "If you don't make any more mistakes, ever...what are you hoping will happen?"

Clarity is a gloriously connecting pursuit. Practice the listen and repeat with your DS...I do with my sons.

"I think the worst sensation I have had is some wrong-doing on my part being exposed and thinking "now it's over, she's going to leave me for sure" and the cold sweat starts and my head spins. What would you call that? Guilt mixed with rejection? Shame? "

Hmmm...I see it as rejecting...your fear you will be rejected for an action you did or didn't take. See how red my rejection filter is? I think you nailed where your guilt/shame/rejection is coming from...your own fear of abandonment...which is one of my life poles, also.

Debt/gratitude

Abandonment/Presence

And I know you're actively working on this...take it further back...your worst sensation with your GF previous to WW...to your best friend...your brothers...your mother...your father. Maybe you can resolve this life pole for you that way.

Cold sweats and head spins...that's fear. Fast heartrate...fear of...and I inserted abandonment. And Intimacy, actually. If she really knew the real you, she'd have left a long time ago belief. Icky. Very real. One triggers the abandonment fear, and then, as you connect and get the sweats, triggers the other fear, intimacy...and you withdraw. Back and forth on the pendulum. To make it into another dimenision, your W has the same pendulum between those two fears...so what's in you, where you are on your own arc, you are also facing in her, on her how arc, different place between at different times.

And since you're both in motion...you experience it as new, same flight path and trajectory (the same feelings), different times, coming in and coming out of you both...quite a complicated interchange.

Knowing where you are, what you're feeling and sharing your stuff helps greatly in slowing down the pendulum until you can live from the middle, which is where reality resides.

"It's always their choice to act on our influence."

Before action there is the idea. I'm saying if they are limiting our influence into themselves...then we cannot force our influence, not in our power...human power and responsibility remains all about us...including choosing our own stuff...what we let out, what we let in. I believe when we don't listen and repeat, we are truly limiting others' influence...through assumption. "I know what you said" cuts off influence, consideration, entertaining an idea outside of you. Hugely powerful...and another reason I didn't listen...too busy defending, trying to be understood, be influential...thereby prohibiting my DH's influence.

The consequences were devastating. Fantasy does that. Every time.

And I repeat this in hopes that seeing where your choice to not listen and repeat before might have been your own self-protection...to shut out influence...which is within your responsibility (sometimes necessary and healthy...though extremes, wide open influence allowance is as unhealthy as not allowing influence)...and I read early on where men especially have to make a conscious choice to allow their wives' influence in their marriage.

Knowing it's a faucet in my control really helped me to get all of my power...and more awareness of my whys...still tracing and understanding all the offshoots and tangles. Very happy to know.

And I believe that unawareness of the limits of influence is part of CA behavior.

"It has to do with the butterfly effect. Your statement below makes my point for me. I'm going to go out and paint "I like peas" on the side of my car in big letters. Impact a lot of people, change lives. Has nothing to do with peas.

"Having a thought that's in the "devil's advocate" category is still something that has some degree of divine inspiration to me. Sharing something divine, whether it has divine meaning or not to you is still a significant act of sharing."

I meant why would playing devil's adovocate be divine? Challenging instead of accepting? Acceptance is more than passive listening...asking for clarification or confirmation until you truly understand whatever the other is saying is full acceptance...a process and a choice. May net you the same results if you are playing devil's adovocate to clarify to self...if you do so to clarify another's belief to themselves...to test it...to show how interested, smart, questing you are...then it's all self-image to me...a dangerous, disrespectful game...which to me, looks the same from the outside...what your intent is, in your highest honesty, totally changes the inside.

Here's to a Cross-Posting Friday!!

LA

MT,

"...the point I'm making is that true acknowledgement requires a functional feedback/communication loop."

When I listen and repeat (with or without filter), then the only feedback is clarification or confirmation--is this what you're saying is returned acknowledgment?

"If both participants are not open to communication, true acknowledgement doesn't take place. I can acknowledge that she spoke, I can acknowledge the words she used, etc., without her feedback on my acknowledgement, but I can't acknowledge the meaning of her words without her confirming my understanding. So if I try and get acknowledgement from her that she was saying something and she's dishonest about it (attack, shield/deflect, reposition, attack, shield/deflect) the dance continues."

I acknowledge for me...clarify or confirm for me. If my DH doesn't say if I heard him entirely or as he intended, I can't know. So I state that. "I'll know if I'm understanding what you mean when you let me know."

Until then, I don't. Not in his hands. Solely in mine...until I know.

"This is not to say there isn't value in acknowledging even if she's dishonest - I choose to grow and change whether she does or not."

I don't know if my DH is being dishonest with himself, and therefore, me...or if he's intentionally so...my goal is to understand his truth and repeat. I focus on my half...and on my intent...and I visually, in my mind, picture a door and hold it wide open. If he mocks me, I state what I heard, how it violates my boundary and what my enforcement will be if he chooses to do so again.

I don't choose to go to why he mocked...I can ask for his intention (attack/shield/deflect/reposition), I usually don't. I wait. He usually comes to me and owns, explains and amends. Which is easy for me to say because I'm not in the old line of fire.

Silence is another choice he makes...and I've shared that I understand clearing the noise, stopping the mapping, knowing when he's flooded takes some time. If longer than two minutes, though, I state where I'll be when he's ready and that I'm open to listening. That way, I don't resent while I wait...silence is a huge trigger for me...and I shift my focus back on me rather than on the silence.

Again, easier now because the silences don't last and last for days or weeks...and I don't choose to dwell in the possible meanings...I just look for my part, my double-check.

I know my rejection/abandonment life pole pretty well (still working on it)...I embrace my automatic signals from silence...withholding...lying by omission...punishment. I sometimes have the urge to assume, fill in...less scary...instead, I refocus and breathe. And I do ask if he wants to address what was left dangling...because I realized when his silence would end our sharing, and the issue we were talking about seemed to be left behind...I felt like I was stepped over...which was me making the issue myself...rather than half and half, between us...neither of us.

Helps me to see what is to be resolved and what is just to be understood. And there is resolution in being understood.

Which is what I'm perceiving in a lot of your WW's statements...not solving at all.

I don't see the dance of not acknowledging acknowledgment as being the same dance...if there wasn't acknowledgment before. I do see it can feel like the same dance if you're acknowledging to get acknowledgment...am I close?

"I have such an urge to say "don't be" or "I wish you wouldn't feel that way" because it's not an issue to me."

Duality moment...I'm laughing and crying a tad on the inside. Often comes when I get what I didn't before...and feel "gotten." This paragraph was really important to me.

"But I take a step back and see you're sorry because you've done something against your code and sharing your feelings with me. Or it could be that you've crossed your own boundary"

YES

"and (if I'm reading you correctly) are seeing it as trespassing on my property and apologizing to me for how you expect I'd react to it."

NO

"This is the sort of thought process I have when I react to something in an unhealthy way and then try and reframe it in a healthy way. I sometimes come up confused. So, even though it's not a big deal here, please clarify. I think this is what I need to do in this situation - ask."

YES

Thank you. Yes, my amends were about me...my issue was important to me, I'm working on it. I don't amend or own something based on if it's important to you or not. That would be dishonest. What I would own was my part and acknowledge it wasn't important to you...okay by me. That's yours. I appreciate you showing your process here...it takes slight turns...and asking corrects those...which brings you to reality, without confusion.

Ownership frees me. Amends instead of guilt or shame. Can look like taking blame and feeling shame...which binds, imprisons and punishes. Hey, I did that...I see it...I learn from it...(tiny, middle-sized or large)...through my recognition and ownership, I amended with an apology...doesn't say I'm sorry you DON'T feel like it was important...and I'm not sorry if you DO feel...says I'm sorry for assuming about YOU (not to code) or not asking (not to code) because I can assume from not bothering...there is no bother in respect.

Thank you for asking for clarification even though this wasn't a big deal, as you said. Most of what I share with you isn't huge deal-breaking stuff...it's in the tiny stuff that we define our boundaries clearly...sneaky little stuff. I really appreciate you for choosing not to discount due to its size.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

See? Size doesn't matter.

Everything matters. We already agreed on that belief early on.

Okay...that just turned my brain inside out.

I saw this again...and I have something new: "So if I try and get acknowledgement from her that she was saying something" I was looking for where I left off and when I read "if I try and get...from her"...and I heard a fragment of the Jim Croche song, "don't spit into the wind".

"I tend to think that defining something as conflict is done in retrospect, whereas the CA reaction (in my understanding, which is not in any way expert) happens before conflict has been established."

Let me change conflict to attack...which is what you described as the cause of flooding...feeling attacked works for me. "I tend to think that defining something as an attack is done in retrospect, whereas the CA reaction happens before the attack has been established."

If you see a fight break out in a bar, that's conflict, right there. That's not determined in retrospect. While you're witnessing conflict, you may experience flooding...from fear...old brain automatic you described...now, if the CA reaction comes before conflict...then why? No trigger present. May come when the two guys fighting began...with a comment, a body signal, a verbal retort...all those preliminary...conflict already was there...because one of them perceived attack, then you may well have attack radar and flood fearing a fight would ensue...then it does. Fear makes what hasn't happened yet into our present and our signals will respond as if it's happening now.

I define conflict for me as when my DH and I disconnect...don't interact...silence...building...and for when we do blame, withhold, disrespect...before we reconnect again. I see conflict when my son doesn't want to feel as intensely or at all the feeling he has right then...I don't see that as conflict with me...just that my son is in conflict. Conflicting desires and reality. Not agreeing to disagree (respect); just disagreeing and wishing it different (conflict between desires and reality).

Okay...then I lost my thought. I was thinking of our old writing classes...conflict is essential to plot...man against man, man against nature, man against himself...conflict. Could that be where my perception changed from conflict being negative and avoidable (which is child belief)...to where it's necessary? I still retained the child belief...where conflict what I caused with my bad choices, not being good enough, kind enough, obedient...got that whole conflict is lacking approval and acceptance thing.

Hmmm. <---that's me thinking...no sarcasm (just in case) and not a prompt for you to go hmmm...

What is conflict to you? I think I heard that it was when someone crossed your boundaries...yet that's what I heard you say as far as when you feel flooded...which leads me back to what is conflict to you?

"I'm not sure this is the same thing I'm talking about. I see fear, fear of him being hurt, here. But I don't really see the automatic reaction that paralizes you."

This was DH saying why he withheld...verbal paralysis because he chose to believe I made him withheld...I was that powerful. So were others in his life...his boss (don't make waves), his sons (who knows what they make think of him or say to him), his FOO...not me being paralyzed...him. He said he felt as if he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

Birthdays, eh? Spa days...as little or a lot in that...arranging for a sitter, picking the restaurant, making the reservations, bringing a single rose and a card, with her preferences in mind...acts of love. I definitely would go for expensive items she may want...she's WW...gifts of love may be her language...includes gifts of time, preparation, planning, execution...falls within budgets, which honors her. Loving statements, "I desired to get you this or this. I didn't want to blow the budget you worked so hard on, either. This was my inbetween, added to my offering."

Gifts are offerings...gifts of attention, admiration, appreciation...dancing? Arranging to have a birthday desert brought to the table with a simple candle...recognition, being special, worthy, valuable...those are gifts, though they can feel transitory and insubstantial...they can also be remembered as connecting...

Leave all judgments at home.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And remember...you are a gift. So is she.

LA

Yes - I can only acknowledge the words I heard without C or C - feedback determines whether we're on the same page, whether I understand what she was trying to communicate.


Yes, if I don't do my part to state what I've heard, I've halted the process.


Yeah, I see this too. Truly understanding her might help her feel more safe. The trouble I have with this (I'm not making a "but" statement, rather I'm stating a complication or obstacle that I want to figure out how to address) is that quite often it seems the only way she'll feel understood is if I draw the same conclusions she does. I often see her mother's choice to support her in order to be close to her as strong evidence of this. Just a quick anecdote here. We had dinner with MIL and her husband. WW went to the bathroom and MIL made a comment about decorating a room in the house a certain way to her husband. He responded that he didn't like that style for that room. She immediately turned away from him and stopped talking. He didn't agree with her and she appeared to feel betrayed and hurt and angry. I see the same sort of thing with WW. The two of them seem to need unconditional validation in order to be connected - which in my mind requires dishonesty.

So how do I understand thoroughly without providing the "evidence" that she needs to see in order to believe she's understood? She quite often tells me my words mean nothing to her, so articulating my understanding doesn't cut it.


I think the little things are where you realize the big concepts. It's why it's so easy to find actions that don't agree with beliefs - because the belief hasn't been truly realized. I think you can spend a lifetime realizing beliefs.

Gotta run to a meeting - I'll be back. . .

MT,

"So how do I understand thoroughly without providing the "evidence" that she needs to see in order to believe she's understood? She quite often tells me my words mean nothing to her, so articulating my understanding doesn't cut it."

You're not doing this for her understanding, her validation...you are doing it to acknowledge and respect. You let the response go. You aren't doing it for your words to have meaning for her...you are doing it because you want to live from respect and truth...in it and from it. So that will be your experience.

When you hinge your choices on possible results...then you are slave. Do it, anyway.

Listen and repeat without your opinion insertion. Your MIL/FIL thing where he repeats what he hears as her idea...thoroughly considering through clarification or confirmation. "I believe I see now what your idea is...thank you for sharing." Without him saying that's not exciting for him...that's respectful. If he listened and then said, "I wouldn't enjoy that" without repeating...did he really hear? Did he consider a compromise? Did he acknowledge importance or her desire?

You focused on her reaction...and yes, it's valid. Those who live from rejection experience it as total rejection when it isn't...their ideas or desires as themselves...and both MIL and your wife seem to be approval dependent to exist.

I think you can relate. I know I can. Doesn't make it good or bad...and I know when I began to hear my stuff repeated, for clarity or confirmation...a whole lot of rejection I was experiencing stopped. Didn't exist. Life wasn't a chore to battle for my existence...I existed.

Which is why I am a repeating offender of repeat...I bring it back often, not because I don't think the person isn't capable or didn't understand...when they are ready to hear, they will hear.

I believe you're ready--I see us as exploring this deep resistance to acting from respect. Do you believe you're dependent on approval? To exist? How far does it reach? Are you trying to cure her, because she believes you are the cause? Like your MIL?

I agree that we can spend a lifetime realizing what beliefs we have and which ones we live by...which ones we've outgrown, after finding out where they were taken on as our own. I like that part about living as a human being.

LA

Ok, I understand where you're coming from with your statement. I was responding to your observation that my WW seems to long to be understood. So yes, I'm trying to figure out how to accomplish the goal of meeting this particular EN. However, after reading this latest post I think just changing my habits to acknowledge will allow her the opportunity to percieve understanding when she chooses to.


I think it's a real stretch to see his part in that conversation as disrespectful. I'm not sure that's what you are saying here. This is one of those areas that is really problematic in marriage because there are a lot of planes in play. First off, men ought to be more receptive to the influence of their wives in general. But on the other side, he had an opinion about this particular material. How is considering an idea that goes against his value respecting himself? He's not rejecting her, he's rejecting a choice of material - and in truth he didn't even really verbally reject the idea for the room, he just stated that he thought the material was cold. She took this and applying it to her taste, her values, etc - personalizing it and took offense because she personalized it. He didn't really consider the idea because of his prejudice, and in so doing shut down intimacy. Both contributed to the situation.

I want to look at this a little differently because I think this particular mundane interaction contains a lot of pertinant things. If I was in a car dealership w/WW and she told me she really liked the particular shade of green that this car was and I didn't, I could respond a couple of different ways. The way I would most likely respond is "I can see why you'd like it. I don't much like it myself." including a bit of her reason for liking it if she gives any. I could also simply thank her for sharing. This seems cold and likely to shut down intimacy because I'm not sharing anything. I could also respond that the color is horrible, and this is why (no ownership whatsoever, totally implying that WW is ignorant/blind/faulty for not recognizing the property of the color). This is one thing I have been extremely aware of recently and have all but eliminated this from my vocabulary. Ice cream's not good, I enjoy it. I could also respond that I don't like the color and not acknowledge her opinion. I think acknowledging both our opinions is the best way of responding here. What do you think?


I'm not trying to invalidate her reaction - it is what it is. I'm trying to learn from it. This sort of thing confuses me because it is not at all the way I would respond to someone elses opinion. I think understanding this will help me be more considerate and better meet my W's needs, or at the very least not LB so much.


So this practice changed the way you perceived adversity?


No, I don't believe I'm dependent on approval - it's nice to have, but I can do without. However, in my M not having approval makes things unpleasant, so having a pleasant environment is dependent me acting in such a way as to gain the approval of my W. Sounds codependent and unreal. What am I trying to cure in her? The problem of blaming me for her problems? I don't have that power. The only power I have is over my perception, actions and life. I am focusing on myself, detaching.

Conflict to me is when two (or more) people have different goals or objectives. The trouble comes when they are unable or unwilling to compromise. When they are aggressive rather than assertive and rigid about getting what they want. The CA flooding comes when I react to another person's aggression with my own, or with the belief that it's appropriate to respond with aggression. I can be assertive all day without such a reaction. It's aggression that I react to, not conflict. This is why I have trouble with the blanket term because it's applied in retrospect, not a reaction to conflict itself, but to a certain style of conflict. I can see that CA's in general might believe it's impossible to have conflict without aggression, and hence the two are synonimous. To me they're not.

Back a couple posts:


Interesting question. I think so to differences. I see this sort of statement more as an acknowledgement, looking for clarity. However, if it's implied that "I see you as <blank> therefore I'm going to respond to you in this way", then it's defining regardless of how it's stated.


First is stating what has happened. Second is to remind that the line is there and state that I will enforce it (leaving for stated time period). This is to enforce it - follow through.


I need to communicate my intentions, otherwise this enforcing of boundaries could be abusive behavior on my part.


Yup, good old defining myself through my actions. Comfortable. Fantasy. It's difficult to be authentic in a situation where I'm giving power to someone/something else.


This is important in cognitive therapy too. I see the point. I also think that in my saying should I'm implying that there's an unspoken plan to achieve a goal, therefore, at this step I should do X or Y because this is how the plan works. I'm very much aware of my choice and owning my desires. I see the danger of thinking like this because it easily gets applied to other people. I plan to get a reaction out of someone, or I plan to buy something at the store - they should act this way or they should sell me what I want. It discounts reality to some extent.


And vice versa. Which is why it's so important to surround yourself with positive, healthy people. I tend to maintain a very positive outlook on my W/WW, full of appreciation and admiration.


I think the importance of what we were communicating about shifted. The deep stuff ceased to be so important while the little things contained vitally important things that could make or break our day (speaking more from my understanding of my W's perspective than my own) - validation. I think this ties with the phase progression nicely.


I really like this. You've articulated something nicely that I have been trying to get at for a long time. I feel compelled to personalize it and share where some of my worst hurt comes from in this: I resent and am angry that my WW is choosing not to have faith that we will reconnect. This to me is greater betrayal than whatever was done in the flesh. To me, marriage is about the committment to retain this faith. I can say that at the moment I don't like the woman I'm married to, but I love her. I'm still committed to reconnecting. To be more accurate and truthful, I don't like things she's doing, I still like her very much. She's not my enemy, the unhealthy, destructive acts are. Both in her and in myself.


Would you elaborate on this?

MT,

"However, after reading this latest post I think just changing my habits to acknowledge will allow her the opportunity to percieve understanding when she chooses to."

Cool...'cuz we're all about you, your power in your choices...not her response. Letting go the outcome is incredibly hard...and I know you are doing that, anyway. From your heart and mind...hopper on head...listen and repeat to acknowledge...also helps identify real abuse from just hurt feelings or the blame game.

Which is what I wish most for you...that kind of clarity.

"I think it's a real stretch to see his part in that conversation as disrespectful. I'm not sure that's what you are saying here. This is one of those areas that is really problematic in marriage because there are a lot of planes in play. First off, men ought to be more receptive to the influence of their wives in general. But on the other side, he had an opinion about this particular material. How is considering an idea that goes against his value respecting himself? He's not rejecting her, he's rejecting a choice of material - and in truth he didn't even really verbally reject the idea for the room, he just stated that he thought the material was cold."

I get this...what I'm saying is that within the listen and repeat...the eye contact...is how we can meet EN of attention, appreciation and admiration--and STILL say, "That material feels cold to me." Really separates the EN from the object...the person from the material...might be a trigger. I see your focus on actuality...hey, he wasn't disrespectful...and he didn't reject the idea...understatement is like overstatement...I'm asking for the focus to be connection or disconnection.

"She took this and applying it to her taste, her values, etc - personalizing it and took offense because she personalized it."

I think that's a DJ...and probably, a pretty accurate one. What if she triggered to "cold" hearing she's cold...her ideas are...she's frigid, not enough? Hey, we spiral when it's not being said...we can't know, can we? Unless she stated, "I heard you say I was cold!" we won't know. Understatements kills relationships, too...take time, and like you're saying, humans have to take offense and she seemed to...doesn't mean he gave it. I was using it as an example to you...

I know your WW is one tough nut...I believe you...no proof required. I thoroughly believe she got there through the same example you're seeing in her mother...and you have no control, no influence unless she allows...so I gear everything to you...do you truly want to meet ENs from respect and love? Or do you want to be blameless? Done to?

"He didn't really consider the idea because of his prejudice, and in so doing shut down intimacy. Both contributed to the situation."

I believe it...I'm putting you in his shoes...the shutdown...the technically no-cause...and yes, reasonable...she believes in blame as strong as I believe you do...so you experience the perspective and perception of blame-based life. It's pervasive. All I'm asking you to do is to completely stop believing in blame at all...eradicate it from all your beliefs, perceptions, thoughts and perspectives.

Not asking much, eh?

The car dealership scenario...let me throw out some your way (your mutuality of sharing is ideal)..."What does that color remind you of?" She shares...finds out she links it to a shirt she used to love to see you wear years ago...or a childhood color of grass in Spring in her area of the country...something intimate...colors are...and they truly do look different to everyone...and then you share what it reminds you of...give the feeling associated (sneaky green...slick like this guy in high school's car which was really loud and irritated the heck out of you)...that's connection through sharing an experience...by sharing our experiences...while buying a car.

My DH and I did this when he brought his new car home last year...we talked about the color, the lighting, what it reminded us of...that's where I got this...and yes, began with "What do you think of the color?"

LOL

God guides and will undoubtedly get you there...know when you're leaping ahead, assuming, preparing (all habits), and not hearing...ask for connection and choose to connect through sharing and listen and repeat...whether she feels connected with or not...listen for it...through conflict (connection is there)...withdrawal is where disconnection occurs...not the other two states...conflict and intimacy...

Believe what you want to believe..that she is not damaged goods, that she's whole and human and wants to connect..lives to know and be known...even when we aren't aware that's it...we may be living as if we can be safe (when we cannot), not vulnerable...only powerful and invincible...how we experience life...don't go there with her...stay here, where you know it's all about knowing and being known.

I believe you've striven hard to understand before being understood...and I believe some of that striving was you trying to ascertain responses...which was MY experience, therefore, in my filter...wanting to not get attacks, put down and definitions...wanting comfort, solace, cures...hence, trying everything and getting nowhere. Not reality...sure experienced as reality.

Because I cannot control others' responses...I sure as heck won't base my choices on those possibilities. And yes, confirmation felt like confirming my existence...and clarification meet my EN for interest, attention, awareness...so I existed. And doing this did it as well...that my listen and repeat from respect fed my own self-respect...which was for the first time...because all the times before, I couldn't feed what wasn't there...didn't exist.

"However, in my M not having approval makes things unpleasant, so having a pleasant environment is dependent me acting in such a way as to gain the approval of my W. Sounds codependent and unreal. What am I trying to cure in her? The problem of blaming me for her problems? I don't have that power. The only power I have is over my perception, actions and life. I am focusing on myself, detaching."

That's you now...are you saying you weren't making response-based choices before? Avoiding unpleasant, disapproval? Maybe what I'm hearing is the gap between...I have my life sectioned into before and after...I hear you now, in this way, and do not doubt. I fully believe this is you...and what I can't get through is if this was you then...why now?

Your spinning sensation brought to you by a highest honesty blonde. Enjoy your ride.

This is my filter...takes two to do this dance...abuser and victim...I know the abusers way...and I experienced my life as a victim...they aren't a paradox. I believe they go hand in hand when two people have a mutual fantasy of blame.

What I'm hearing from you is that you no longer participate in that fantasy. You changed your steps...the dance changed. Leaving for the wayward mindset of WW...I guess I'm not getting something...and I feel it's important.

Could it be you aren't removed from the abuse? TTM is removed from it and is experiencing the relief and the recycled stuff...the cyclical nature of the internal dance...you aren't, that I can perceive. When I changed my abusive actions, my marriage changed dramatically...I stopped feeling abused...identified it, named it and called him on his stuff...and me on mine. No seperation required...must be my side of this.

And it took that loving detachment you're doing. How are you feeling now? Right now?

And lastly...since I've gotten up to where I'm really here and present...is it that before you choose to do something, you want to know why? That analytical cycle you've referred to...and I'm referring to listen and repeat to know, not to respond...is that a habitual process to determine what new action you decide to take?

Appreciate your time and effort...no puking on the ride.

LA

This sensitivity, is this being considerate or enabling?

My WW believes I'm inconsiderate because I don't remember specifics. For instance I offered her a banana and she doesn't eat them. Not to offer, not to share - these are somewhat against my code. Not based on earning a response, but because I value those characteristics. I don't feel bad (although on some level I "should" know this and I internalize her suggestion that the fact that I don't may cost me the relationship or at least be evidence to support it) about it. We are made new everyday. To assume that I hate something today that bothered me yesterday would be limiting me, defining me. For me to do the same to another, well I don't. Yet this is cconsidered a fault. Or is this explanation my justification for lacking sufficient caring to remember these things? This is my WW's reality, and I can understand it. Is it absolute reality? No, but it may be more a component than I want to accept.

So, the question I have is: do I build my life, my self, around her triggers? No. That's dependence. But I need to build in consideration for the fact that she has triggers.


This is the blame game that's really destructive. She attacks herself and then blames another. I don't think I do this. I know you think I'm a blamer, and I probably am more than I see. I guess I'm trying to work through the denial that may be there.


I would rather be standing on firm ground being blamed than to play games trying to avoid blame. I don't want to be dependant and reactive. I want to learn to better meet ENs. I don't think it's possible to meet needs in a dependent state. If needs are being met in the other person while you're dependent, it's self fulfillment objectifying the other as means to this end.


Using the information you have as a way to dig deeper, for more information. The way you did when you barely knew each other. Meets lots of needs. Also is a LB in my sitch. Because WW is looking for evidence that I don't know her, proving that by asking probing questions that she might think I should know the answers to would be a LB. Not that my actions are dictated by this assumption.


Response based choices were a factor. They still are at times.


I'm going to spin my way home!


I'm not quite sure how mutual this fantasy is in my case. I find I'm often trying to escape the fantasy of this, wishing it weren't a factor in our relationship at all. I don't really feel bound by it, and when WW talks about not wanting to be the bad guy, or something similar, I cringe. It's not me, or is it?


I'm in a vaccuous state, not defined (I think you got that). Lines are like laser beams through fog - clear, crisp. Once the light is gone, the lines are too. This is why it's difficult for me to tell you about how I've changed.

I'm not sure what you're not getting - if I knew I would be better able to pinpoint it for you.


I don't really feel abused. I feel strong, aware, capable and generally clear. I don't think the abuse has changed, but I have changed the way I play into it when it happens.


Right now? I feel a little low level stress, excitement to get out of here, have a nice ride home, get home to my family and have dinner. The past several days things between WW and I have been nice. On Sunday, WW's birthday, she started getting upset. Last year she got really down on her birthday feeling sorry for herself that she can't get what she wants for her birthday (seeing OM). This year she said it in passing and didn't really go into it much. I asked her how she was doing and she gave me a sarcastic "just great" answer.


I'm not really sure what you're asking here.


I'll do my best, but the risk is there!

MT,

Thank you for exploring conflict with me further...I appreciate your efforts...I really do.

"Conflict to me is when two (or more) people have different goals or objectives."

I'm not nit-picking here...do you mean when I have a different goal or objective for me...or for my DH? For the marriage? If my goal is about me alone, I don't see the conflict. When it's my half of the marriage, i.e., I wanna leave the marriage, then that's definitely conflict. Would you consider that CA'ers may not consciously see this as a line in conflict? If their partners want to take a continuing education class, they may fear conflict and not say, "I fear you doing that because when you did it before, I got left out." By avoiding instead of sharing, they ensure feeling left out and replaying what they felt before.

And there can be a false comfort in certainty. Which is fantasy...'cuz they may not have shared what they felt at all. Now, I bring myself to where all our choices, because we are partners, affect the marriage. I have personal goals for myself...to live from respect, in truth, not abuse, etc. I believe those are part of my marital boundaries, as well, 'cuz I'm half. So maybe I just talked myself out of the conflict separation thingie, did I?

"The trouble comes when they are unable or unwilling to compromise. When they are aggressive rather than assertive and rigid about getting what they want. The CA flooding comes when I react to another person's aggression with my own, or with the belief that it's appropriate to respond with aggression."

I was reading last night on Al Turtle's website and found that nor-epinephedrine is released...oh, darn, now I don't remember which it is...adrenaline when we fear, and this other when we are angry...the good kind of angry, I think. Anyway, the physical flooding of the chemical from the emotional reaction to aggression...I got that now. Before, I felt flooded WITH the emotion and didn't know the chemical side of it, yet I knew about adrenaline and could sense it.

Just letting you know I'm getting there.

"I can be assertive all day without such a reaction. It's aggression that I react to, not conflict."

Here's where I was not specific in my own thinking...conflict to me includes being attacked, defined, abused...which relates to what you just said...two different goals or objectives and one attacks. I wasn't getting past the two different goals...because there was no attack. To me, conflict is attack. I think I'll be more specific in the future.

"This is why I have trouble with the blanket term because it's applied in retrospect, not a reaction to conflict itself, but to a certain style of conflict."

Styles of conflict...like the disguised P/A behaviors, aggressive, assertive...passive response only. Is that what you mean?

"I can see that CA's in general might believe it's impossible to have conflict without aggression, and hence the two are synonimous. To me they're not."

Got it...my DH saw conflict as synonomous with aggression...'cuz I was that at every turn. So was his mother. His experience remained that way, even after I changed, because of his expectations of conflict...and it's a really hard habit to break...his fear of my reaction remains...and probably will for some time. Which is why I note and appreciate his bravery every time.

Now, let me bring you a scenario from my life and you tell me if this was conflict or not...

It was almost a year into recovery and I was listening and repeating what my DH was sharing...and at the end of his sharing, he asked, "You know I'm telling you the truth, right?"

"I know you're sharing your truth. That's correct."

"But you believe me, right?"

"I believe your truth is valid for you right now. I don't choose to believe you, make it my own and rely on it. Not right now."

And he was upset...and I'm relating this because I had a goal...to not buy-in until further into our recovery...and even then, to do so respectfully and honestly. Not blindly. Not that "Of course I trust you" to make HIM glow with being trusted. And yes, I did this right back to him all our married lives...and I was NOT trustworthy. His normal answer was, "I know I shouldn't trust you, but I do."

So my goal was different than his goal. His was to be trusted, believed, bought into...I was fully buying into the marriage, not into his stuff...right then. He hurt. I didn't change my goal...he changed his, over time, to earning his own trust. I didn't change his...he did. I kept working on building my own.

Was this conflict or not?

"And vice versa. Which is why it's so important to surround yourself with positive, healthy people. I tend to maintain a very positive outlook on my W/WW, full of appreciation and admiration."

I'm not there yet...possibly coming in my future. I used to surround myself with all people...now, not so much. I'm working on getting to the whole, without judgment...I've eliminated my permission to tell myself I'm doing wrong...and changed that to querying if I'm living up to my code...might be semantics, doesn't feel negative...feels authentic and loving. And I don't focus solely on what I'm doing well, either...I have committed to staying aware of meeting my code and do my self-appreciation...and amends when I don't meet them. And I've been alert to others crossing my boundaries and working on enforcing...which I tend to fail my own code about the most.

Not positive or negative...being present with my listen and repeat...sharing without self-image...and being open. Because I self-admire, I readily perceive a lot to admire in my DH. In my code to share what I admire, appreciate, enjoy. Does that make me a positive person to be around? I don't know...I'm going for real...not real positive or real negative.

LOL

You know what though? (inserting this after more thinkin')...I do this...I read certain posters I perceive as positive and healthy. I surround my brain with their advice, sharing and presence. I do that. I see where I do that.

Maybe this is what you're saying...knowing where your focus is, what you treasure, and living in that surety...like you said...what is the ultimate betrayal is not believing we'll get through this together...and that really resonated...I don't see that as positive or negative...I see that as fantasy. No basis in reality. Sole choice. Because in every moment there is inherent grace...in that moment...and if we live in that moment through awareness, we can be partners, quite literally, forever.

So I find the ultimate betrayal going into a future which isn't here yet...going into fantasy to define our selves and our reality right now...which is a mind-blitz I don't like...because I lived that way far too long. Rankles me. Scares me. And you're right...if my DH saying he knows we'll make it through anything together is him being a positive person, I am surrounded. I take him as he is, though, (my goal) in entirety...which means he hates people, is working hard to find out why and to not hate them...working hard on loving himself though he believes very much we earn love and punishment...and I'm here...by his side...believing very different things. I believe that's God's way of giving me a lot of practice at separate and equal...and it not being conflict for us.

Could be me upping my fantasy into fatal dose...so I'm here, asking...wondering...seeing where I still have very blurry lines.

And you and so many others share and enhance my life in this way.

I'm living in abundance...I don't know if that's positive or negative...all I know it's thrilling, foreign and stunning, daily.

"I need to communicate my intentions, otherwise this enforcing of boundaries could be abusive behavior on my part."

I asked you if you followed the same boundary enforcements for your own amends...when you cross your boundaries...fail to meet your code or act against it...so I'm a little lost here. I don't tell my DH "Before we talk, here's my intention"...I told him my intention is to live from respect, truth and love...I don't see how not telling him my intentions when we talk as possibly being abusive behavior...I'm muddled. I know that enforcing my boundaries when he crosses, and not when I cross them, around myself...that's just kicking our marital butt. Betrays me, him and the marriage.

I know if I don't do my own amends, I won't enforce my boundaries. I won't be aware and courageous...I will be fearful, doubting and hesitant. My signals that I'm imbalanced.

"It's difficult to be authentic in a situation where I'm giving power to someone/something else."

Only way I know to be authentic in that situation is to say, "I'm handing my power over to you, aren't I? Wow. Caught myself." That's authentic. Brave. Ground-breaking. I've done it...talk about a freedom rush...I'd love to know what chemical got released that time. Usually is immediately followed with laughter. I didn't get to the joy chemicals on that website yet. Gotta check that out.

"I think the importance of what we were communicating about shifted. The deep stuff ceased to be so important while the little things contained vitally important things that could make or break our day (speaking more from my understanding of my W's perspective than my own) - validation. I think this ties with the phase progression nicely."

This really resonated...in the beginning, DH and I shared about the little things...all discovery and newness...not big stuff...all our reactions, sweet self-image to best self-image...as we got to real selves, we got big issues...made small into big...and now, getting through to authentic selves (as best we are right now), we are back to sharing small...not so much large stuff...or the large comes out as smaller, too, sharing bite-sized stuff. A lot of it. Which is large.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"And I believe that unawareness of the limits of influence is part of CA behavior."

When I believed my mother..."she's a bad influence on you, mark my words!" I felt like a victim...yes, I had the choice to not hang around whomever...but what if I didn't know they were evil and would make me do evil? What if they seemed like rescuers, angels, saints? Left me treading fear like water.

Did I mention my CA stuff? LOL

When I finally got that influence was under MY control as a human...by degrees and entirely...I felt such relief...and floated. Sadly, this was in my last A when I cut out all my DH's influence. I took freedom from my own belief as proof of his controlling. Again, living from my feelings, not my beliefs...unaware and in my own fog.

When I got out of that fog...my belief remained. Others cannot influence me where I do not allow them to...even sneaky, subtle stuff...like meeting my needs behind my back and then me acting from my feelings, not my convictions. Awareness...however, my CA saw influence, dominance, or like my DH, somebody's own conviction as rightness...and we wanted to be like them and avoid them at the same time. Dodge the influence so we could be free...when we already were.

My dominance was what my DH rebelled against...and I call it rebellion because his boundary enforcements were agree and then do the opposite; withdrawal, distraction and fantasy. As a rebel myself, those were mine, as well.

Not real. Not close to real. My DH relies on me not doing that which I will resent...he's free to suggest, POJA or share anything...without believing he's influencing me to agree against my will, hold it silently against him, and extract equal sacrifice from him later...and I'm delighted to be reliable.

Doesn't hurt, stab or shock me...no more treading in fear...I don't spiral so much...mostly remains on FOO stuff...not the present.

Where I expected conflict, I got it. Doesn't mean it was real. My DH believed that my presence was conflict...and would avoid my presence...hide his...often. Until I removed mine...then he wouldn't see it as conflict...and pursue. Can you see the dynamic underneath the pursuer/distancer in this way? From perception? Not even reality?

You know...looking at how long my "expansion" was on this, I'm wondering if you'll ask for me to expand on anything again.

ROFL...hey, I'm sharing. Reasonable to me! I'm laughing, too...seriously. I'm funny. Gosh darn it I'm funny.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

ABUNDANCE, I tell ya...

Heehee.

"So, the question I have is: do I build my life, my self, around her triggers? No. That's dependence. But I need to build in consideration for the fact that she has triggers."

Would you consider verbalizing instead of offering first? "I'm really enjoying this banana. Hard for me to imagine anyone not liking them. I know you don't. I used to not like tomatoes and now I do. I'm caught between assuming you still don't and not offering in case you do."

Which is more important? What you think...your process...or sharing food? Food isn't a trigger...as you identified, food is a symbol of you forgetting about her...not being known. My DH forgot a lot...thought he had ADD...found out, he had resistance...to my triggers.

I didn't forget ANYTHING...I couldn't...like a shark has to keep swimming, I had to keep remembering everything or else I'd die...to my DH's not remembering. Neither choice began our swirl...my choice to not remember ended it.

See, once I found out forgetting was abusive...isn't what you think...and read that section of the book aloud to him...DH had a light explode. Then, when I stopped reminding and requiring he remember...he did. No kiddin'. He hasn't missed a promise in over a year and a half...that I noticed. Least it seems that way to me--because I stopped noticing...not up to me to remember.

He'll say something and ask if I remember he said that he promised to do that...and I honestly won't remember...and he will be delighted and say he did it, anyway. I'm delighted he's delighted...and I'm free of being a control freakin' wonder who only felt loved when her spouse remembered all her stuff for her.

I understand your predicament...and remember how it feels...I couldn't prove what he'd promised, what he said he liked or didn't...and he forgot my stuff, I was erased...not thought of...invisible. Breaking that takes you sharing your thoughts, I believe, in total O&H. Doesn't mean she'll change her triggers...may very well change them anyway.

Doesn't help to not acknowledge, though..."I hear you feel angry and hurt right now because I didn't remember you don't like bananas, is that correct?" "Do you feel like I don't love or pay attention in this way?"

Difficult part to discern, MT...is when you're honestly being passive-aggressive with your forgetting (because SHE shouldn't feel annihilated when you do) and when you're not. How she addresses her feelings is entirely hers...don't allow abuse. Watch for your own...because justification is in every P/A behavior argument you'll have with yourself. My signal...for me.

And I would set-up my DH to fail me...annihilate me...over and over again...and he would forget more and more, put it on me for making it a big deal when he didn't remember to tell me about a $650 expenditure, because I was too critical and overbearing...mothering...and unreasonable. Same for making a big deal out of a bannana...same issue, really. Loose the choice in there...your choice to forget and offer and justify, and her reaction to feeling forgotten, an object, unloved.

She retains choice over what she believes.

Find the honest ground in between where reality dwells.

I trace the shoulds...she should see your offer as sharing...she should not take it to mean you don't know her...you should remember her likes and dislikes...where there are shoulds...there is fantasy.

"This is the blame game that's really destructive. She attacks herself and then blames another. I don't think I do this. I know you think I'm a blamer, and I probably am more than I see. I guess I'm trying to work through the denial that may be there."

I only go with my experience...when I blamed, I perceived blame all around me. Don't know if you are doing it or not...I know without reservation you're not a blamer...you're a human.

What we see most in others which reacts in us, we have within us and want to address. Those are my two cornerstones for my questions.

You may well be the exception...my cornerstones may be fantasy. I truly don't know. I'm here to find out what I can.

"I would rather be standing on firm ground being blamed than to play games trying to avoid blame. I don't want to be dependant and reactive. I want to learn to better meet ENs. I don't think it's possible to meet needs in a dependent state. If needs are being met in the other person while you're dependent, it's self fulfillment objectifying the other as means to this end."

Wow. This is a lot for me...I'm going to crunch on it awhile. Lots of new stuff in your statements for me to consider.

As for your belief that your WW wants to be known much more than shared with (my summary)...my DH made some statements similar to this...and my answer "I'm discovering you. You're new to me today." I lead with my truth...I assumed so much that I really didn't "know" my DH.

"I'm not quite sure how mutual this fantasy is in my case. I find I'm often trying to escape the fantasy of this, wishing it weren't a factor in our relationship at all. I don't really feel bound by it, and when WW talks about not wanting to be the bad guy, or something similar, I cringe. It's not me, or is it?"

Blame itself is fantasy. Trying to escape blame through shoulds would be fantasy, wouldn't it? Or would it? Wishfulness is fantasy...can we escape one fantasy for another? I know that DH and me talked a lot about bad guys...which one of us was when...who was worse...all through self-images, not selves.

That's all I know right now.

Correlation points...where I connect...what I see in posting to you that's in me...where I have lived...what it's like not to live there anymore...

"I'm not sure what you're not getting - if I knew I would be better able to pinpoint it for you."

I believe you. I'm not getting how your marital dance isn't changing...my expectations? My experience? Could it be the contact? Can the wayward mindset really overtake all the new dance steps? I would imagine it's a possibility. Wasn't my experience.

If anything, Plan A changes all those darn steps. Part of it's charm, I think.

"I don't really feel abused. I feel strong, aware, capable and generally clear. I don't think the abuse has changed, but I have changed the way I play into it when it happens."

Good to know. Which brings to mind something I thought of a couple of times. It's been pointed out to me that I post a lot to the same people...have these anonymous relationships, sort of, and when I post this much to men, then I am outside my boundary. I share all I post with my DH...I'm not worried about crossing...I'm aware. What I am doing in part is making my amends for years of abusing my DH...and I do that in real life, as well...and possibly, when DH shares what you are, and others have before you, his stuff in this way...I won't continue to amend here...as the abusive person I was...I don't know. I might have enough to go around. I know I wanted to share this as my amends, not knowing if I truly am of aid or support...letting go the outcome for you...and naming my own results. My amends. My DH aches when I apologize, own this stuff...he hurts from it...hasn't gotten to much of it, IMO...there's time...a lifetime. I want to be ready, too.

Remorse is life-changing I think...from love of self and others, it's potent. My experience.

"before you choose to do something, you want to know why?"

About the listen and repeat...before you take advice or commit to something...do you want to know why, how it helped, is it effective, what the outcome will be...

Understand the disease entirely before you try the cure?

About WW bday...last year she stated that's what she wanted for her present? Did she state that this year, as well?

LA

I appreciate it too – it really helps me out to explore this.


To me, you are engaged in conflict when your goal is (or you believe it will be) impacted by the stated (or implied) goal of another person. If your goal is about you alone and this is acknowledged by your H, I agree, you’re not in conflict. However, one of the trickier things about enmeshment is that there is far more perceived conflict than there is in reality.

This is why conflict negotiation skills are so critical in relationships. It’s everywhere, not just when someone acts aggressively.


Yes and no. I think the problem here is how the conflict is dealt with. Maybe we are saying the same thing – try this on for size: CA is engaged in conflict, denies it, then tries to avoid or minimize bad feelings (aggression, resentment, etc) and in so doing ignores or discounts their own feelings, doesn’t assert him/herself, makes a sacrifice that need not be made and then feels victimized because of this sacrifice. To me this indicates poor conflict resolution skills (because conflict happened) rather than conflict avoidance. The attempt is made to minimize harm and get out of the perceived state of conflict as fast as possible.


Unquestionable. I think this is a great example of self fulfilled prophesy – that and how DJs and fantasy can hurt, providing an extremely tempting out in having another person to blame.


Just a quick follow up to this: I think avoiding conflict by withdrawing is an aggressive act. There’s no room for compromise. It’s a power grab.


And I think this is the assumed belief that drives a lot of the CA behavior. What do you associate with attack? With conflict? What feelings to you expect? What do you expect the other person to feel? I think it’s really these assumptions that are reacted to rather than the conflict itself. Having a rigid outlook traps you. Conflict holds enormous opportunity. In conflict you learn about another person and yourself. In conflict you have the opportunity to explore ideas, to generate new ones, to intimate, to listen, to feel, etc., all that makes a relationship worthwhile and valuable is right there in conflict. Avoiding conflict in order to avoid rocking the boat because you think the other person will react in a way you don’t want them to is actually avoiding relating. The relationship doesn’t truly exist without conflict.

Learning to embrace conflict is critical to me for these reasons. It’s also part of that personal polarity battle between mind and body (reason vs. automatic physical response). Even if conflict comes in the form of an attack, there’s substantial opportunity there. Fighting back, deflecting, absorbing, playing dead/the victim, all sorts of posturing, or relating, understanding, listening, feeling, knowing, walking away.


Style was probably not the best word. I was trying to distinguish between conflict and the fantasy that a CA associates with conflict – the part of it they react to.

I’m not sure what you’re eluding to with the disguised P/A behaviors. I think assertiveness is healthy and appropriate, not at all a P/A behavior. Am I missing something?


Yes, it was conflict. In my opinion, he was interested in being validated by you, in having his ego bolstered and supported by you. You were interested in being honest, being whole in and of yourself. You refused to engage in the behavior that he wanted you to. You were in conflict over your actions as well as his beliefs. In resolving to extend yourself only as far as you perceived real (refusing to play into the fantasy of supporting his “need” for your trust – which I assume was needed to define himself as trustworthy) you set up in your H a situation fertile for internal conflict over you’re his beliefs.


I think there is a natural tendency to recognize your traits in others. You can make a conscious decision about how you would like to grow as a person by spending time with people who exemplify the traits you appreciate and would like to see become more central in your own character. Not positive or negative objectively, but relative to your goals.


Ok, I was talking about verbalizing my intentions to enforce my boundaries vs. just doing it without explanation. As for amends, I do verbalize at times, other times I don’t. I’m not really consistent because of the insecure state of the relationship. In the past, I did share when I did something inconsistent with what I wanted.


I can relate to this – the whole idea that your choice was limited to choosing who to be exposed to rather than whether you agree with the person’s beliefs or not. A CA’s choice not to participate in conflict might have a lot to do with this belief. If I listen, I’ll be affected.


I relate.


This is what I yearn for in my WW – her taking responsibility for her feelings.


LOL. I appreciate your explanation.

Good question. In this situation I didn’t remember the banana thing, so to me it wasn’t really a matter of prioritization. Maybe it is a matter of resistance in me too. My W doesn’t like variety – she likes what she likes and doesn’t go for anything else. I love trying new things. Perhaps my resistance to keeping track of what she chooses not to like comes from judgment about this. I say live and let live – but maybe deeper down I need to bolster my belief that trying new things is the way to live. Variety is the spice of life, and she’s doing it wrong. KWIM?


My W doesn’t either. She’s amazing with details. I sometimes remember things, sometimes not. No rhyme or reason to this. It happens with regard to my personal life too, not just in my M. I think it’s me.


What choice can I make to end this? I can’t really choose to remember, although I can devise crutches to help me out with the important stuff. I choose not to focus on “the things preventing my happiness” so it’s difficult for me to aid my W in doing so. My mind doesn’t work like that.


I’m not saying a big deal was made of this incident, and I didn’t justify my forgetting by pointing out how she overreacted. I simply observed that offered, that I forgot and what her reaction was. No judgment in it. I didn’t communicate my observation to her because, however, because I assumed (DJ) that my response would provoke a fight over it. I didn’t justify my offer and I didn’t attack her for being annoyed at me, but I didn’t acknowledge that she intimated her feelings to me. I’m not playing games and posturing, but in a way because I’m not acting I run the risk of playing into a game, being seen in a posture.


Agreed.


No, I’m not. What I’m trying to understand is the subtlety. Yes, she embodies a lot of characteristics that are at play in me, but how strong they are and how they act upon my being are very different than how I observe them in her.


That’s the game we escapists play. W and I both escaped in books when we were younger. We are very much alike in that respect. I think I have changed the way I interact with the world. I have modified my escapism to be functional for me – there’s got to be a practical justification for me. I think the fact that we both seek escape is both an opportunity and a liability. We could design an escape to enjoy together, which would be ideal, or we could each be tempted by the destructive escape that divides us just because it is much more potent. She’s made a choice here, and I think I have too, in a very reactive sort of way. I need to work more towards the former.


I don’t know either. The contact is an issue, on both sides. WW pulls away when I try and kiss her head, when I try and express love through physical affection (and I don’t do this often – nothing like consistent rejection to train you not to). I would think someone that doesn’t have any physical contact with another person (aside from DS – the surrogate spouse issue is very real to me) would want it, but I guess the emotional wall is up and being protected. She’s so vigilant about pushing me away. I think walking away might be the only thing that changes this. Maybe people do just turn off like a light never to be turned back on again.


Their opinion or yours?


To me, talking (or writing) is valuable and important. I think therapy (and this is a form of it for me) is about making oneself healthy. Talking gets you there; sharing beliefs, exploring, questioning, etc. It’s not a process done to you by another person, so in this respect I’m not looking for anyone’s answers to help me get through the specific situation, there is no one-size-fits-all answer that can be given. Talking, sharing and exploring helps, and I thank you for being there. I’m not really articulating this properly, but I guess what I’m saying is that if you feel pressured in any way to provide THE answers, wisdom, etc., this is not my expectation. As all people do: no matter how good your answers are, if they are not what I’m looking for I won’t listen (the negative) BUT, I am looking for answers, for solutions, to learn and to grow, to know myself and mankind, and even in the answers most lacking in substance, wisdom and all the other attributes we strive for there is Truth, something divine, something that will contribute to our personal goals. It’s a matter of setting myself straight on my goals and listening well at the same time that I have to accomplish. You have personal experience that is very relevant to my situation, and I believe I contribute to your healing (and appreciate the opportunity to do so).


Sometimes. I’ve been focusing on the process far more than the outcome these days though.


Not totally directly. She basically said that she was feeling “great” (sarcasm) because she couldn’t have what she wanted for her birthday. This begs the question: is it emotionally abusive that she shares that she’s upset because she can’t be with the man she loves on her birthday? It’s not an aggressive act, in fact it’s intimacy, right? It’s just insensitive and inappropriate. What’s your take?

MT,

"Style was probably not the best word. I was trying to distinguish between conflict and the fantasy that a CA associates with conflict – the part of it they react to.

I’m not sure what you’re eluding to with the disguised P/A behaviors. I think assertiveness is healthy and appropriate, not at all a P/A behavior. Am I missing something?"

Nope, you cleared it up nicely when you took back style for distinguish...I was flailing around, that's all. I've really gotten to be a lousy mindreader, thank God. I like that about me.

Hey...just had a thought...think mindreading and being right are linked? I just flashed on me--"I KNEW you were thinking I was being stubborn and mean!" she said, delightedly. LOL. Very true for me...to be right was it...totally discounted what I was right about...just danced in a DJ comin' true. ROFL.

And I rely on my DH not doing that which he will resent, too.

And I believe in him, too.

Now, about the banana...gotta share a story here...okay, I'm choosing to...

When I was around 10 years old, after my stepmother and father had been married over a year, my stepmom began addressing my really picky eating...for the benefit of my health. I didn't like fruit of any variety...of course not veggies (except for mushrooms...go figger...and salad)...so one day, we were in the kitchen after school and she asks if I'd like a banana...she's holding it out to me...and my standard reply comes out, "No. I hate bananas."

She sincerely asks why...and I have to stop and think about it in order to answer...and I can't think of anything, really. Fruit had fear in it, I swear. Couldn't figure out where it was coming from...mushy? Texture? Choking? Something along those lines...not taste. So I try to say this...and she finds it surprising and has an incredulous expression on her face...and says, "Eat the banana" wagging it at me.

Now, I don't tell my mother "no"...that's just not done. I don't say anything...but my unreasonable rejection of the banana still lurks in me, and I'm finding that kinda funny...along with her statement, "Eat the banana." She says it somewhere between imploring and coaxing...not harsh or demanding. And I'm smiling and shaking my head, and she takes a step towards me.

I'm standing at the kitchen sink where the counter L's...nowhere to go. She repeats again, "Eat the banana. You'll like-ah da banana." (We did really lousy Italian accents with southern drawls mixed in them.) And I begin giggling...I'm nervous, this is really new, and she's being funny...and she says it again, now, right in front of me...and I shake my head, giggling. Both of our eyes are wide...and she peels the banana, repeating, "You'll like-ah da banana!" And I start laughing...partially terrified and partially delighted (talk about intense attention)...and then she holds the back of my hair and smushes the banana into my resisting mouth (and some of it goes up my nose) until my mouth opens for a bite.

And I nearly peed my pants, laughing so hard, choking on banana. Our catch phrase for my resistance for decades after that was, "You WILL like the banana"...and I can't tell you how exactly I feel about it...only that I started eating fruit.

Enough with going bananas...

I got resistance, choices and feelings in there somewhere...pick it for what you want...you may actually be trying a variety of things, as you proposed, because she doesn't. And I hear you saying there is a lot more to remember of what she doesn't like than in what she does...so you remember what she does like and not offer anything else. LOL.

I figured out she was a really picky eater (that's what my folks called it) much earlier in this thread. And I have to say, that goes to autonomy...for recognition. Can be maddening, I know...and I'm really, really blessed that my sons weren't this way...to the degree I was. I've made a list of firsts and included food items on it. I've been whittling them away in the last three years...food like an adventure...oh, boy. Lots of self-esteem tiny boosters in there...might consider that in your choice for variety...not based on WW's limited choices entirely.

And yes, with enmeshment...we are motivated to do stuff we might not have if in some way it will wow our partners...belittle them covertly, or address our fear of becoming them by striving hard not to...still leaves them with our power, doesn't it?

(My DH loves brussel sprouts. I don't get that at all.)

LOL

On remembering:

"My W doesn’t either. She’s amazing with details. I sometimes remember things, sometimes not. No rhyme or reason to this. It happens with regard to my personal life too, not just in my M. I think it’s me."

I was sharing that I had to remember...came from FOO stuff, also...remember or die. It's a terrible way to live. Not a point of admiration...remembering from fear, being a human scorecard, able to quote my family, not poets...ammunition and proof of...what? Love? Hate? Injury? It's like living life prepared at every turn to not be believed...from being discounted, dismissed and disbelieved...

This way is MUCH more enjoyable. Whew. I like to remember details of visual stuff I've seen...I'm more of the Mulberry St Reporter..."Guess what I saw over on Mulberry Street!" which has no bearing on what my DH reports on...he's an artist...he can see color like I cannot hope to...and sounds...and textures. We share our stuff now...before, we would have to deliver it and be tested on it...hence, the memorizing...repeating over and over in my head TO memorize...and I would do it from visual landmarks...know where I was standing, where he was at the time, when he said what or I said what...did what...

From being gaslighted as a kid and teenager.

Now I let that go...I rely on his truth being his...up to his recall...and mine, my own. I love saying, "I believe you, DH; I just don't recall. Is it important to you for me to remember?" And he's just baffled...and then says, "No, I like sharing my own memory with you." Good to know.

I'm totally sincere...I no longer debate if I said what I said that he hurt when he listened...I focus on his stuff...what about what he heard hurt...what it reminded him of...if there was any of his own sabotage voice in it. Acknowledgment...not blame. What a world.

I don't have to prove him wrong through technicalities. I don't have to be wrong through his perception.

Would you also consider her amazing memory for details as her fantasy protection...you can't defend against something you didn't see coming...typical PTSD stuff...like my visual memory trick...from incredible fear.

"What choice can I make to end this? I can’t really choose to remember, although I can devise crutches to help me out with the important stuff. I choose not to focus on “the things preventing my happiness” so it’s difficult for me to aid my W in doing so. My mind doesn’t work like that."

Well, I would explore if when you forget, and she feels hurt...ignored, unknown and invisible...that you talk about where she hurts, what she thinks and believes...choose to know not own. And query yourself if you feel overwhelmed remembering all her dislikes, which out number her likes by 1200 to one...and ask yourself...why not just remember her likes, then?

Same as her non-varying choice of food. You can try new things...or not. Doesn't say one thing about who you really are. Okay to stick with what you know (my science son said that's healthy for our bodies for routine foods with a balance...no variety)...or try, off and on, new stuff. It's about your choices...not hers.

You may well ache for her to choose differently, choose a new way to act, react...treat you. Could that be underneath the food issue? So if you keep doing it...she surely will? And when she doesn't, she's wrong? LOL

I'm only laughing 'cuz that's what I used to do with DH.

I was a set-up artist, I swear.

"I’m not saying a big deal was made of this incident, and I didn’t justify my forgetting by pointing out how she overreacted."

I am making a big deal out of the banana. I am.

"I simply observed that offered, that I forgot and what her reaction was. No judgment in it. I didn’t communicate my observation to her because, however, because I assumed (DJ) that my response would provoke a fight over it. I didn’t justify my offer and I didn’t attack her for being annoyed at me, but I didn’t acknowledge that she intimated her feelings to me. I’m not playing games and posturing, but in a way because I’m not acting I run the risk of playing into a game, being seen in a posture."

There's that "being seen" concern again.

Let me ask you this...do you really want to know your W and be known by her? Could this be a gut-level choice not to be? Could you permit yourself to ask, "I'm curious...what is it about bananas you don't like?" respectfully...to know, not to judge? I wonder if you cut out a lot of FOO stories from expecting and receiving negative reactions when they are her poor communication skills, not her intent. Not that you're wrong or she's right...you want this game to end...you want to change the dance...you know how to do that and choose not to...no listen and repeat...so I'm going to go to the next layer and ask you point blank...scrummage around in yourself and find out the answer...I'll respect your answer...no judgment.

"No, I’m not. What I’m trying to understand is the subtlety. Yes, she embodies a lot of characteristics that are at play in me, but how strong they are and how they act upon my being are very different than how I observe them in her."

I want to type, "Yes you are" because my inner child is still out and giggling from my FOO moment recall...I believe you are seeing the same stuff...and would you consider that you are measuring it inside yourself, instead of defining it? You see her annoyance and don't like it...okay...do you like feeling annoyed? Could that be the extent of it? If she acts resentful...identify resentment and look at it within...you're correct...not in the same way...same signal.

How you feel attacked will guide you to where you feel attacked inside...and you can trace it...

Not the, "Do I do this? In this way? When this happens?"

Don't get lost in the specifics...if that's what I'm hearing you ask above.


"She’s so vigilant about pushing me away. I think walking away might be the only thing that changes this. Maybe people do just turn off like a light never to be turned back on again."

Okay, how are you set for Plan B? Can you get a legal separation in place where you get the kids and the home and she has to vacate?

For all the similarities...when it came down to losing my H...I changed. I got it. I was abusive, controlling, dominant and not worth being with...and it was all his fault. Until I was faced with life without him for real...not threats.

Now for entertaining that people turn off like a light...would making a choice look like that? She's not off like a light, btw...in this regard to physical connection she is...she remains talking to you...present...and my experience in that wayward state was repulsion from my own monstrous choices...not my DH's touch. His touch physically HURT from it's kindness, connection and desire. No kidding. Felt like tiny burns...which I believe were shame symbols...and of course, that was his doing, not mine.

You get to choose what you believe...and you'll get the corresponding signals. You can choose to see your WW in the fight of her life with herself...or with you. Your choice. Focus on your stuff...if you want Plan B, do not base it on HER stuff, her choices...base it on yours. Then you'll do a powerful Plan B, not a reactive one.

The floundering Plan B's I see are when the BS doesn't see and know their own worth, value of their presence...where they choose to see it not mattering to WS's...a relief for WS's to get rid of pressure, to get their way...reactive. When it truly is to stop meeting all (every single one of them) ENs because you choose to protect your own stuff after giving it a truly stellar Plan A.

Shock value...to you and to WS. Because then you really do meet your own ENs...find your weak spots, your super secret DJs and your way through being entirely yourself, sans partner...other half...enmeshment shattered in all ways. Which is great, because you were two whole, separate and equal people all along.

Not to get her to do anything...for you, about you and done to save your marriage. End of story.

Not end of marriage. Nowhere close.

Reality beats fantasy every time. Don't do it to wake her up...that's where I see most BS error.

"Their opinion or yours?" - Others...however, I do allow that into my filter, not for my self-image, but because being wayward felt very, very real...it wasn't...easily seen by others, not by myself. So I stay alert and aware...

And appreciate others sharing what they see.

"Sometimes. I’ve been focusing on the process far more than the outcome these days though."

Good to know.

"Not totally directly. She basically said that she was feeling “great” (sarcasm) because she couldn’t have what she wanted for her birthday. This begs the question: is it emotionally abusive that she shares that she’s upset because she can’t be with the man she loves on her birthday? It’s not an aggressive act, in fact it’s intimacy, right? It’s just insensitive and inappropriate. What’s your take?"

My take? If she said she can't be with the man she loves on her birthday...then I would have listened and repeated...

"I hear you are saying you didn't choose to give yourself what you wanted on your birthday, which was to be with OM, again this year, is that correct?"

Bring reality. I'm wondering if you didn't do the DJ thing and remember last year and infer this year...that was my real question.

Gotta run...grandbaby time!!!

LA