I have a bit of a head cold and feel a little fuzzy, so this'll be light!


Without question.


A way of setting a clear boundary to define oneself?


Yes - but this extreme isn't the case for me. I have always - long before I met someone that resisted variety. Does the stark contrast create something to define myself by? To some degree - I rejoice in trying new things. I don't think it's a reactive thing in this case, though your point is valid. Do I look down on my W for not trying things? Not really. I do resent it to some degree because it is a complication. I can't just make pasta and veggies or rice and beans - real simple meals - because she won't eat them. It takes forethought, planning, more work, to satisfy her.


I like them too.


Yes.


No kidding. I don't make an issue out of it - compromise is necessary, and I manage to have my share of interesting dishes.


No, this isn't a right/wrong issue for me. I don't try and change her choices either. If anything, I sometimes feel frustrated that her choices make things more difficult for me. Selfish, maybe, natural, I think so, but I don't think there's anything deeper than this in it on my end.


Yes


Possibly - part of my character is this avoidance of labels, of definition. Being "known" is being defined and limited, and naturally I would avoid this too. However, when I am assertive and share to be known the response often leads me to believe that I'm sharing with someone that isn't interested, that doesn't see anything but negatives when she sees me.


Sure - and I often do ask questions like this. I'm interested, and I express my interest.


I would bet I do.


Yes, I see your point.


Not all that well.


I need to see a lawyer to find this out - and I haven't come up with the cash for this yet.


I can see this happening in her as well. Things have changed recently. She seems much more in control of herself and much more stable.


Yeah, I could choose to look at it that way, but then am I choosing to delude myself? I don't think that people love and then not love, I think it's something in a state of flux, and that the idea that when "love" is gone it's gone is a justification for running off. The physical connection business physically hurts me.


I see it as a fight with herself - always have. But because she sees it as a fight with me, I have to consider that too.


No - she expressed it pretty clearly. Did I insert my own pain? Sure, but it was provided. You didn't answer my abuse question though. I'm curious about your take on that.

As always, thanks.

Sorry you're not feeling well...thank you for the light...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

About the abuse thing...yes...and no. Sarcasm is abusive. Call her on it. "You are being sarcastic, which is abusive. I hear you saying you feel great and then saying you don't because you didn't choose to give yourself the OM which you said was what you wanted for your bday, is that correct?"

More sarcasm...name it and remove. If she's not open to talking after 20 minutes...then state, "I know you realize how devastating that is for me to hear--that you choose OM over your children and family. We were here for your birthday. Our presence IS a gift, a real one. I feel wiped out and upended...stabbed in my heart. And I'm sharing my own stuff. My choice to be here, because I can see what a gift my family is to me."

And spin that heel and leave. Cry. Sincere and direct.

Do NOT take being treated like a brother, a girlfriend...you are her husband. Act on it, MT. Call her on it..."You are speaking to your husband...the man you took vows with about another man you adultered with."

You can write it far better...do it. Fighting for your marriage is not pacification...it is ownership, through and through.

So no, her actually sharing her belief, her desires right now...that's not abusive. Bring reality to her statements...insert that choice into your listen and repeat...reality hurts much less, MT. I promise.

Your pain is real...do not buy-into her fantasy, 'k? That makes the second stab one you did yourself.

LA

I've needed to step away for a little bit, to do some introspection and take stock of myself. There are a few walls I keep walking into. My good friend said of my wife, very early on in the sitch, that she was sitting facing the corner of a large room complaining about how little freedom she had. I've found myself in this corner too, and I'm working hard to distinguish between the parts of this corner that are defined my me conceptually and the parts that are there because of the reality of the situation.

I have come to the realization that I don't really like the woman I'm married to.

We connected in the past, but I believe what we connected on is no longer a strong part of either of our lives. We were young, and there was this beautiful, smart, sensual woman that wanted to be with me. She was hurting too, something that I'm sure attracted me as well. Now she doesn't want to be with me, she's hurting and blaming me for her hurting, she's smart, but is too scared to share with me and totally rejects my ideas, she's constantly pushing me away, shutting me out. There's no warmth from her. Whenever I share how I feel I am told these are just words and not borne out in action. She doesn't want to be with me and she also believes that it's up to me to make her want to be with me. I can't do this. Beyond the power struggle, she doesn't have (nor has she ever had) the compassion or tenderness for me that I want, that I want to give both to myself and another.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't like the person I am in this marriage.

I don't like that I have to justify getting my needs met. I know I don't "have to" but I'm constantly berated because I'm so "selfish" (I bought a toilet seat over the weekend to replace one that broke - I've been living with it broken for weeks now - without discussing it with WW. WW doesn't use this bathroom anymore since she banished herself downstairs, and as such can now - and did - claim that this is for my use only, hence it's a product of my selfishness, not maintenance of the home. Not to mention it's the main bathroom in the house that DS and guests use too). I deserve my spouse seeing my needs as important, not as the reason her needs are not getting met. I have allowed myself to settle for less than I deserve, less than I want. I don't want a loveless, cold, blame filled marriage anymore. I have given this a lot, and I haven't been able to change many of the dynamics that are painful to me.

Am I powerful enough to change what is into what I want it to be? What I can find acceptable? Nurturing? No - the very best I can do at this point is to accept what is, acknowledge that it's not what I want, and pursue what I do. This doesn't mean I have to shut the door behind me, but I need to walk through it. I am staying in a situation that's not getting better (although there have been improvements) and though it's providing me with perspective and growth opportunities, it's not nurturing. It's not unbearable, it's not horrible, it's just not what I want now or ever again. I have been acting as a martyr without wanting to, tolerating abuse and a situation that I don't want in the name of something greater that I'm not really a part in creating. I have learned a lot about being a good husband, about the directions I want to grow in. Right now the support I give my WW is not reflected. It's not tit for tat, I'm truly giving support because it's what's in my code, but I need to be supported in my choices.

I'm tired of allowing myself to be manipulated in an effort to please my W. I'm tired of hearing complaining and whining. I want to live my life without regrets, knowing I'm doing my best, striving for better, never beating myself up for choices I've made. Last night WW came home from a day out with her mom. She told me she was going downstairs to bed. I asked her if everything was ok because she seemed to be really hostile towards me (this was in stark contrast with how she had treated me the day before, and nothing had really happened so I wasn't sure - yes I keep aware of her moods). She responded that she was really frustrated by the whole situation and didn't want to be around me. I said goodnight. She got mad at me because I shut her out when she was telling me how she was feeling and I heard something I didn't want to hear. I shut her out because the fact that she takes out her frustration (of her making - and the fact that she routinely comes home from time out with her mother means something to me) on me is abusive. It's practically the definition of abuse. But yet the way I did it wasn't ideal - I probably would have better listened to and validated her feelings, but I'm tired of being blamed for her misery.

I have come to the realization that this stagnation is not really going to resolve itself, and my action has not been drastic enough. I'm still reactive.

I don't want to be with someone that doesn't want me. I know her desire is transitory, but she's not ambivalent about this. I'm sure I could find much evidence that she is ambivalent, but she hasn't tried to be close to me in any way in many months. She holds my thoughts and actions in such low regard that if I weren't as strong as I am self esteem wise I would feel very badly about myself as a result of her influence. For example, Friday night I wanted to go to the gym. I told WW I wanted to go. She said she thought I would go Saturday morning. I asked her if she preferred this. She said she preferred I go on Saturday so she could have her time alone. I asked her if she wanted me there tonight (Friday) and she didn't. So I told her that I would go to the gym Friday because I wanted to keep my interval consistant, but that I would take DS out Saturday morning. She got upset because I didn't do what she preferred. She told me first that I was going to do what I wanted anyway, implying my selfishness. Secondly, she told me that she felt I gave her the impression that her preferrence mattered and then took it away. I told her that I saw what I was doing as compromise. I made my decision in such a way that I took into account both of our desires and needs. From my understanding, the big thing looming in her glasses was her rejection. After we talked it through a little bit (lots of listen and repeat on my part) she came to understand (without my trying to win her over to my way of thinking) that I was being considerate. But what sticks out in my mind is her saying "You can't just make your own decisions. We're married, we're not two islands."

So I am still floundering to some degree with all of this, but I know what I need to do. The only thing that makes sense right now is to walk, to do for myself what I need to in order to be healthy, and to have a happy life. Happy because I'm accomplishing things, because I'm growing and learning. If my WW decides she wants to do what it takes to work things out together, I'll be open to it for a little while, but I don't want to martyr myself on this potentially dead cause much longer. I have also decided that I've been spending much too much time online. That's part of the reason I haven't been around this past week. I will drop by, but it's not healthy for me to be as immersed in it as I was. Moderation is the key for me.

I have learned a lot here, and it's been a large source of support. I think all the focus on personal responsibility here is great. In my situation, I'm having a difficult time seeing the situation for what it is when I always flip it around to myself. Believe it or not, for me this has been a way to keep myself in denial of the situation. I ignored the reality and focused on what it means in me. Like a jew in a concentration camp trying to figure out why he chooses to see himself as a victim and where it is that he's abusive. Not the most appropriate analogy. Right now I need to see things for what they are and accept them for the same. My marriage is in total shambles. Whether we can make our marriage work is not what is. Right now what is is a woman that doesn't want our marriage to work and a man whose heart isn't entirely in it either. Lots of reasons to make it work, even fear induced passion for it (as well as passion and love that's not fear induced), but that's only part of his being. Remember I got myself into a nasty agreement? She's been waiting on me to come around, and I have somewhat. My thinking is a lot more flexible. I can see that my life may well be much better outside of this relationship, and I can say the same for my life in it IF things change. But here is not where I want to be, and I'm not willing to stay any longer.

Thanks all.

Last week DS acted out in school a bit (he's got an enemy there). WW went to her therapy session that evening and came home very upset. She said she believed that his acting out was a direct result of our situation, and she wanted to resolve this by separating. I told her she was free to do what she wanted. I, however, didn't think this was the answer. She went into some detail of how the animosity between us is not a good model for him. I agreed and told her that I know we are both capable of acting in a way that models good behavior for him. Regardless of whether we divorce, separate, or otherwise. She got angry with me because I didn't see her solution as the solution. I told her that I didn't see traumatizing DS as a solution to whatever damage is being done now - fixing out interactions is. I told her to keep in mind that this is her solution, her choice, not the only one or the inevitable one. I will not participate in a choice that is not mine, that I don't agree with. If she wants to "solve" problems by creating new ones, that's up to her to do - I'm not going to work with her to do so.

Last night we had another conversation. She brought up that the people upstairs were leaving and wondered whether we should consider one of us moving upstairs so that DS had both his parents living in the same house. She had such a hard time broaching the subject that I gave her a big hug and she hugged me back in a way she hasn't done in months. We shared our thoughts and feelings on it, me talking about how it doesn't seem feasable financially to do so, but I encouraged her to run the numbers. I also don't really like the idea of such close proximity should we separate. We again talked about how our actions are impacting DS and how we can change them for his benefit. WW said she couldn't live with me because I make her angry all the time. I make her feel bad and then she acts out. I told her I understood that this was difficult for her and that it must be difficult not to feel bad with all of the various influences right now. She told me that she felt like a second class citizen in her own home, that she was oppressed. I told her that I thought she was doing more to paint herself into that position, and creating those feelings as a result, than was actually happening in reality. I said that I thought we could each take responsibility for our own feelings and resolve things or figure out how to live with unresolvable issues.

Then I crossed into "offensive territory" for a bit. We were talking about our part in our own feelings. She brought up that she felt the balance between external stimulus and internal is about 50/50 in its impact on feelings. She took issue with me saying that we choose how to respond to that stimulus and thereby have a lot more influence over our feelings than she gives herself credit for. She then said that I was asserting that she chose the feelings she had over the past 2 years (for my cousin). I told her that she nurtured them and they were functional for her for some reason or another. She got very upset at this and wanted to storm away. She told me that this was why we didn't work, we see things so differently.

One of the underlying things that we have disagreed about over the past year+ is responsibility for feelings in the other. I understand her point of view is that I absolve myself of ANY responsibility for her feelings, while my point of view is that she blames me for all of her feelings and things that justifies her destroying our family. This came out again in this conversation. She did in fact say something to that effect, that she is made to feel a certain way in this relationship and that's why she has to leave it. I told her that I have a responsibility to be considerate of her feelings, but I don't have responsibility for her feelings. I asked her if she thought she was responsible for all the pain I went through. She told me that she was, but that she had to make the choice between her feelings and my feelings (and this was my fault, somehow). She said a couple of times "we are married, you ARE responsible for the feelings I have."

One other point that we discussed was that she said "how can I prove to you that the marriage doesn't/won't work?" I responded that that's not something that she can prove. I told her that marriage is not a thing in and of itself, it's about the choices both people make. If she chooses to sabotage the marriage in order to prove that it won't work, all she's proving is that she's able to sabotage it. A couple of days ago I told her that I have no doubt that if OM is out of the picture, in 1 years time our relationship will be dramatically different (with both of us working at it). She responded that if the alternative to separating is returning to my bed, she can't do it. Last night she brought this up again saying that she doesn't think she could stand a year of this. I told her that it doesn't mean jumping back into bed and pretending nothing happened, but rather working on our relationship from where it is and seeing if we can get back there.

I feel like I'm trying to convince her, which is not what I want. However, I think this sort of discussion is beneficial to us both. We shared, and I thanked her for sharing with me. This morning I held her hand for a while and we had kind of a nice moment. As I left to take DS to school, she asked me if we were going to find a solution for this. Last night she kept stressing that I might not get what I want as a solution, and she might not either, but I owe it to myself and my family to keep walking this line. I don't know what the outcome will be, but I know I'm still committed to, and standing for my marriage. Even if I do sometimes think the best option may be separation in the near future.

Thank you for the update, MT.

In my prayers,

LA

Thanks LA - that means a lot. Happy Mother's Day to you.

We had a relatively nice weekend. Last night we had a conversation about things again. There's a great deal of conflict on the surface of these conversations, but I keep noticing how similarly we think about each other.

WW kept talking about our power struggle and how I just won't accept how things are. She kept asking me how long I was going to continue in this stalemate. I told her that I wasn't looking at it as a stalemate, but that I was learning through this experience, and I will continue to do so as long as it is fruitful for me. I told her that I accept that she feels the way she does right now, and I asked her what it is that she expects from me as a sign of acceptance. I told her that I know we both contributed to a sick marriage, but I don't believe that divorce solves any problems - so moving on with my life doesn't mean divorce for me. She expressed that she thinks this sort of logic proves that I haven't accepted what is right now.

She kept talking about how I am so self righteous, that I act like I know everything, like I'm an authority "and it's not just me who's noticed this". She told me that I made her feel like she was dirt. It wasn't what I said but it was this looming dark cloud around me "and it's not just me that you've made feel this way". All of my stroking and love was just words and it was negated by this cloud of negativity. She doesn't remember what it was like to want to bee with me.

I told her that it really hurt to hear things like this. I told her that it really hurt that she often criticized me and blamed me for making her miserable. I told her that it really hurt because a part of me believes that I am defective, and to constantly hear this from someone that I care deeply about is almost intolerable. She responded with big hugs and sincere remorse and apology for hurting me and treating me the way she has. I also told her I was really angry with her because when she went through this "awakening" (her realization of all that was wrong with our relationship - coming out of denial about it) her commitment to the relationship disappeared. She never looked to see what we could do to repair this relationship that we had both committed to - never tried to find a way that we could both get our needs met. I was really debating sharing, as you may remember, because I don't really feel safe. But hiding behind a shell is one of the things that has contributed to the continued destruction of our relationship.

There was a lot more to this discussion - this is only a small portion of it. She and I were both tearful. She refered to my controlling quite often. At one point she said something about how all the details she complains about aren't really the issue, the issue is that she just doesn't want to be with me. All the other stuff is just support. She later denied saying this, but I think it's really the crux of all of this.

I'm still here, but I think I'm doing a lot of the wrong things. I shouldn't be here, I should be in plan b. But at the same time I know I'm where I should be. There are no mistakes in the universe.

AND, several years down the road she will not want to be with "insert name here" either. Sounds to me like she has some serious issues that will not translate into having a long, fulfilling, mutually rewarding relationship. Hope I am wrong.

That's my expectation too. If she doesn't change. Which isn't where my focus should be. But this is where I keep going around in circles: if I accept that this is just who she is for life (make a judgement about what she'll accomplish in the future regarding her personal growth and health) rather than just right now, I might be inclined to move on at all costs. But I know it's a right now thing, and I have faith in her and in our potential. Maybe it's stupid, I don't know.

Thanks hopeandpray

Well, I don’t really know what to say now. I have been so focused on saving my marriage that I think I’ve been putting a huge amount of pressure on my WW, and not in a good way. I think in some way my belief that people choose to act however they do, and see whatever they choose to in the actions of another, has allowed me to push my WW further and further away. I don’t really believe that a person is capable of pushing someone away, but yet not acknowledging my part in this is avoiding responsibility.

WW recently told me that she thinks I have no empathy. That I project an image that I know it all. Hearing her say this hurt, it seems that she views me as some sort of sociopath. But in the end I think it comes down to the walking wounded phenomenon, that until one’s personal pain is grieved it’s difficult to see past the substitute needs we compulsively fulfill in order to avoid the pain. Maybe, maybe not. She’s inclined to see things the way she is, but there’s something to be learned here too.

More and more I feel an emptiness from this marriage. I watch WW constantly maintain reasons for feeling hostile about me, and maintaining relationships that encourage man bashing (or me bashing). I feel a sense of hopelessness, because even if the A is out of the picture, these issues will remain. As long as it’s taken to get through this, I don’t see this becoming a satisfying relationship without a lot of work and time. I don’t see that happening.

Last night I wasn’t working (I don’t on Wednesdays – usually I go to the gym) and WW told me late in the day that she’d like to go have dinner with her mom and hang out for a while. I said great, but asked when she’d be home. I told her that I wanted to go to the gym. She told me that she wasn’t sure when she’d be home and didn’t want to have to restrict herself to a schedule, but she wouldn’t tell me that she wouldn’t be home in time for me to go either. I was a bit frustrated at this. She told me that I was so set on doing what I wanted to, and implied my selfishness (again). I told her that I did want to do what I wanted to do, and I saw no reason that we couldn’t both do what we wanted to. What it came down to is that she felt entitled because she never does anything, and she wanted to feel like she could do whatever she wanted without concern for another person. She left without making a plan – and then told me she’d call me at some point. She called to check in, and when I asked her whether she’d be home, she told me “I don’t know”. We got off the phone and she called again and said that she’d be home, but that she didn’t like the pressure, and I made her feel guilty, etc. I told her what I had told her earlier – “do what you want to, but let me know so I can either plan to go or not.”

I don’t know how I could have better negotiated a compromise here. WW mentioned at one point that she had half a mind to say “screw you” and just do whatever she wanted to. It seemed like that’s what she was doing on some level.

I have been looking more positively at the prospect of life without her. I know this is fantasy to some degree or other, but I think my life will be dramatically different (and better) in the future. I think it’s so clear that because she wants to leave the family, she should leave the household. She has moved downstairs, and now shuts the door all the time, effectively shutting me out. She’s avoiding meals, eating downstairs by herself. Yet she doesn’t want to be the one to move out. She keeps telling me “I would never keep DS from you – you’re such a great father, I wouldn’t do that to him” – as if she’s going to be the primary caregiver. I just wish that she’d either own her decision to not be a part of the household and leave (consequences and all) or become a more productive member of the household and work toward creating a loving environment through having a truly loving relationship.

All her, right? No, of course not, and this is where I keep banging my head against the wall. What more can I do? I want to work towards unconditional love, towards self improvement, etc., but it’s difficult in this environment. It’s difficult to think that 5 years down the road she might have another battle with depression, and I’ll be blamed for it again (because depressed people blame situations and others in relationships and keep running, hopping from one situation to another in an effort to avoid addressing the real causes of their depression). WW told me that one of us is getting professional mental health guidance, essentially invalidating everything I believe, and then went on to say that she hasn’t been able to look at her past much with her therapist because there is so much in the present to deal with. She’s had depression all her life, looking to end her marriage to end her depression is absurd to me.