Hi Everyone:
I am a longtime lurker who needs some advice from you wonderful people who have been supporting me by supporting each other. I’ve been reading threads and info on this site for quite some time, and finally have the courage to throw my dilemma out there for your wise advice. I’ll give you the Cliff’s Notes version of my situation as much as possible.

D-day was June 28; OW was a friend of mine and mother of my two DS’ friends. We did stuff together as couples/families, but I had been VERY uncomfortable with their friendship for some time. Turns out I was right on…the A began in spring 2004…just about the time I sensed something was off and her son began calling incessantly to play with my DS. (The way I see it, they used the kids to facilitate their affair. YUCK) I questioned WH many, many times about their relationship and he (surprise!) claimed they were just friends who had lots in common. I was (surprise again!) just imagining things. I discovered the truth after finding a yahoo account that WH hadn’t logged out of…explicit and obscene emails. Many of you know the spinning unreality of that moment. OW told her H a few days later (or I would have). I exposed to everyone.

I didn’t do a Plan A as I didn’t know about MB at the time. Actually, WH and I had scheduled an appt with an MC on June 29 due to the increasing “distance” between us—at my insistence (the timing was coincidental). At our MC appt, MC asked us to rate how much we each wanted to save the marriage. We both said 8 out of 10. The MC told us that to heal, WH needed to “hold my pain,” which for all purposes meant I should feel free to vent and LB to my heart’s content until WH truly grasped the enormity of the pain he had caused me. Totally anti-MB, and it was a total disaster. By mid-July, WH’s initial remorse about the A and commitment to the M seemed to have dissipated; I asked for him to swear to me that he would have NC; he couldn’t…so I left for my mom’s with the boys. I had no sooner left the house sobbing and distraught to drive an hour to my mom’s, and WH was at OW’s house deciding that they “couldn’t imagine life without each other.” (I had warned OWH that I was leaving and he should keep an eye on her that night, but he decided to take their three kids to his parent’s for dinner. Huh??)

By the time I returned home a few days later, WH had moved his clothes out and was living at his parents. The ILs thought they could talk some sense into him and remind him of his morality, etc. No luck. He’s still there, and in my view, they are enabling the A to continue by not letting the consequences fall upon him. I believe they are in fierce denial, sort of an unwritten “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. They won’t ask WH about his plans or activities, and he doesn’t tell them that he’s still seeing her and is planning a future with her. To their credit, they have been there for me in some of my darkest moments, especially my MIL, who is very special to me. But she loves her son, too.

My WH is that typical “super good guy” type that many of you have described: high moral standards, intelligent, compassionate, went to a Christian college, a cop, helpful and kind to everyone (well, except me and the boys…the P/A link in someone’s sig line may apply?). NO ONE can believe this of WH. Everyone love(s?)(d?) my WH and thinks/thought the world of him. On his deathbed, my dad (a wonderful, caring man--we were very close) asked WH to look out for my mom (this was pre-A). My WH used to be Dr. Jekyll; now he is Mr. Hyde.

Over the summer and into the fall, I was falling apart. I got down to 92 pounds and told my in-laws repeatedly that I couldn’t do this anymore. I couldn’t eat, couldn’t sleep, and I was taking care of the two boys, pets, house, yard and working. Even though I was on ADs, one night I lost it. I went out with the boys to go see WH at his parents and ask him to come home. He wasn’t there. I drove past OW’s house (we all live in the same neighborhood), and (surprise!) there’s his truck, pulled way up in the driveway so it couldn’t be seen unless someone drove right past the house. All the lights were out in the house. I pulled in the driveway and laid on the horn—I just wanted my husband to come out. After a couple of minutes, OW steps halfway out the door and gives this shrug…sort of like, “What do you want?” From my perspective, she was totally taunting me. I floored it up the driveway toward the door, barged into the house, slapped her, and bit WH when he grabbed me and wouldn’t let go. I then yelled some choice words and left.

My two DS were in the car the whole time.

(Pause to breathe. Just breathe.)

A couple of hours later, the cops showed up at my home and arrested me for felonious assault. OW had called them and made a statement. I spent two days and two nights in jail. The charges were reduced to misdemeanor. Keep in mind that I have never had so much as a parking ticket. I am a typical middle-class, college-educated mom. Now I have a criminal record (really today’s version of the scarlet letter…how ironic) and I had to deal with Protective Services. To top it off, WH filed for D while I was in jail.

Am I crazy?? After all of this I still grieve for our M and for my H. I want back my old life…only better. And I know it could be.

Mostly unconsciously, I have been working on myself and am amazed at the changes. Probably not so visible from the outside, but inside, I feel that I am much more open, much more willing to ask for help, much more sensitive to the suffering of others, and constantly reminded of “there but for the grace of God go I.” Before D-day, I never appreciated the number of people who cared about me and the depth to which they cared. I was always so afraid to be a burden to others, or to disappoint others. Now I’ve been both a burden and a disappointment, and to my amazement, people still love me! I’m much more spiritual and feel…deeper, more aware, more conscious. From that perspective, this has been a blessing. Even though I know I have a long way to go, I am impressed with my own survival. I have been through the wringer, and I’m still alive, and my DS both count on me, love me dearly and are wonderful, intelligent, compassionate boys. I am so much better off than every single sad, damaged, wounded woman I met in jail. There but for the grace of God…

But I still love my H. Not the WH, but my H, my kindred spirit. We were such a good couple, so well-matched, people would say. I miss him, and I fear for him. WH shows sadness to me sometimes. A few times he has cried when I have been open (not vengeful) with my pain. Most of the time, he just says he’s “sorry.” (pretty lame). Sunday was our 12th anniversary. I called him in the morning and quietly told him it would mean a great deal to me if he went to church with the boys and me. There was silence for a long, long time. I could hear him gasping; then he said, “I can’t.” I said okay, and we hung up. (You’ll be glad to know that I boo-hoo’d for about 10 minutes, then washed my face and got ready for church and felt at peace with myself.)

His mom tells me that she sees him struggling deeply, and he is in IC. But he is the one who filed; he is the one who remains in the A; he is the one who loves me but is not in love with me. He told me after he moved out that he loved me to his core. He is the one who would abandon his boys—to what? Parent her children, who were once DS’ friends? How sick and wrong is that?

I just don’t know what to do or how to feel. I take my vows very seriously, and I feel like he’s standing there with a razor to his wrist. I feel like I have some kind of sacred responsibility to stop him because of those vows AND because I love him. I just can’t sit back and let him self-destruct…but I know I can’t control him. It’s such a push-pull. I feel like I have some inner strength back now and really want to save him…but he can only save himself. So there’s that question for you, folks (assuming you’ve made it this far…): how do I reconcile those opposites? But there are more questions for you...

I just don’t know if I’m tilting at windmills here. Given what’s transpired, and that I never did a Plan A, is saving this M just a fantasy? It’s been six months since discovery, making the A over two and a half years old. He’s still deeply involved with the OW (who’s husband filed back in July), and he’s said all of those ugly fog things to me the whole time (they’re soulmates, etc.). Maybe it’s just true…? Maybe they really are meant to be together…? Maybe he really IS a totally, completely different person…? Is it possible for someone to change so radically? Maybe I should just give up on him and get on with my life…? (but I don’t know if I can honestly even do that).

I can’t believe that anyone would have read this far, but any feedback or insight will be welcome. It’s really hard to compress the story, and hopefully I’ve hit on the main points. I appreciate you all for the help you give each other, and I want you to know that there are those out there like me…just reading and learning from your conversations with each other.

LilSis

Welcome to marriagebuilders. No, I don't think saving your marriage is a fantasy. The affair has been going on a long time, but they all end. My WH was living with the OW for 3 and a half years before the affair ended.

You know that you cannot "save him". I would continue on with your life, making it a good one. Put your husband on the back burner. They usually come back to the marriage.

You can still save your marriage. His relationship with OW is the fantasy, not your M. They are not soulmates. They are not meant to be together. Their "thing" is based on a lie; it cannot survive that. The affair will end. He will come back.

Hi, LS.

You remind me of me! My WH is also a cop ... and, just like you said, "that typical “super good guy” type ... high moral standards, intelligent, compassionate ... helpful and kind to everyone ... NO ONE can believe this of him ... Everyone loves and thinks the world of him...."

And the time I went and caught him at OW's house, she was not brave enough to come out, and I was not brave enough to hit him (or ram my vehicle into his, which is what I really wanted to do). Althought I thought very hard about walking right into the house -- the front door was wide open. If I had, I might very well have been in your same position!


I agree with believer .... get your focus off of your WH and build a great life for yourself. You're right, he's on a path to self-destruct, and it's not going to be pretty. And he knows he's on that path, too.

You can't save him or fix him, it's not your responsibility to do so. Nowhere in your vows did you say "I will save you from yourself by contolling you and fixing you when you decide to destroy our lives..." If you've read any of LovingAnyway's posts ... she says that's not how we are desigend by God -- you can't cause, control or cure anyone else, and to attempt to do so is disrespectful.

It's not an easy thing to learn ... especially when we've spent our whole lives feeling responsible for making other people happy, taking care of everyone else, handling everything and smoothing everything and trying to make everything ok.

I'm impressed that you've learned that you can rely on others instead of always being the one to be relied on. And that you're already making the changes and are getting your inner strength back. That's a huge part of Plan A that you didn't even know that you were doing. You may not be able to meet any of his needs right now, but you can sure as heck show him your most incredibly strong, attractive, loving and independent side (which it sounds like you've doen quite a bit of already) and then very quickly, as soon as he's seen that, go to a nice dark Plan B. For your own sanity, mostly.

Do you have good custody and financial arragnements in place? Where are the D proceedings at right now? How old are your boys, and do they know what's going on?


I don't think his A will last very much longer. He's obviously not feeling good about it right now if he's struggling the way his mom has described to you. Whether he'll be able to suck up his pride and come back once it's over .... and whether you'll be willing to take him back at that point .... I don't know. I think the pride thing is a big question for guys like this.

But that inner strength and ability that you're re-building and showing now are going to be intensely attractive to him -- whether or not he's ever capable of admitting it. And they are going to be great for you -- whether or not you ever let him come back or not.

-AmI.

believer and stph:
Thank you for your replies. I know most people here say that As always end, but in the present (which is where we are supposed to live, right?) it is still going on, and it hurts. Granted, I have no idea about how well they are doing or what is going on between them. Not a clue. I have no one to spy or fill me in...although that might be a bad thing for me...suck me in even more. Others have talked about how we tend to make assumptions about the A partners. I hope that I am just assuming things are rosy. I can't figure out how to stop dwelling on this (on the back burner as you said)...although when I'm busy at work or with the boys it does receed a bit. I guess there's my answer...

AmIok:
I have read your posts and have thought the same thing...how similar our situations are. Your story has resonated with me. My boys are (a young) 8 and (an old) 11. The 11yo knows exactly what his dad is doing...he figured it out the night of The Incident. I did talk to each of them when I was released (they don't know where I was) about how sorry I was for scaring them and what I did was very wrong and pinky promised never to do that again. What I tell them about their dad is that when we married, he was a wonderful, caring, admirable man that I hope they both grow up to be like. The man that he is now is somehow broken, and we can just hope that he gets better. He has really made some bad choices.

Between the three of us (me and DSs), we recently came up with four rules for life: be honest, be kind, be responsible, and do your best. I'm going to post them on the refrigerator.

I loved what someone posted about the good guys who do this...it might have even been in your thread. It talked about how good guys are so certain that they will never stray that they fail to keep firm boundaries; no plan to protect themselves, so that little by little they fall into the trap. I cut and pasted it into a word document because it was so good; if you want me to clip it for you let me know.

I have been a fixer, a pleaser, taking care of everyone and everything, Ms. Competent. I think I did that to "earn" love. Now I see how that contributed to the distance in our M: I took on everything and left him not really feeling like he could contribute. Probably made him feel unworthy, useless, a "fixture" as he called it once. Now that I have had the "opportunity" (?) to be in a position of not being able to take care of even myself, I am much more humble. I know now that I am getting stronger, I can still be competent, but I know I don't HAVE to be for others to think well of me. That's a good thing. Thank you so much for pointing out that that kind of growth is actually part of Plan A...I never, never thought of that.

Yes, custody is fine (with me and occasional visits and overnights at WH's parents house with him). We just settled (out of court, thankfully) on the financial arrangements. I got what I wanted (HA!!) in terms of support. He's paying the house payment and CS according the "the guidelines" as they are called here in Michigan.

I will go back and read some of LA's posts. I have seen comments to that issue of control, but I should re-read them. The point about it being disrespectful is something that I need to think more about.

What I will need help on from those here is continuing to show WH the strength and growth that I have gained from this...not the weak, weepy side. It makes me so sad to see him, and there's this element that I struggle with of not wanting him to think that I now am "okay" with where he is and what he's doing. We don't really even see each other, though, so if I can just suck it up when he drops off the kids I'll be okay. I'm sure he noticed that I got the tree up (even did the same tradition of going to cut it ourselves), decorated the house, and bought a new TV for the attic which we had worked on renovating and which just got finished about a month ago. I also think asking him to church in a respectful way was Plan A-ish.

I agree...the pride thing is HUGE. Related, I wonder if he will stay in the relationship with OW just to prove to everyone who has been so disapproving that he was really right all along. His mom told me he feels unforgiveable. I told him once that I might have already forgiven him...but that I did that for me, so I don't have to carry around the hate and anger. He didn't get that at all...that it was for me. I don't know how to communicate to him that these bad choices (I'm not real comfortable with that word because it's so much bigger than that, really) don't mean he can't redeem himself...that he's doomed for life. He can pull himself out of this, but I don't know that he feels that's possible. I've told him that if and when he decides to redeem himself, there will be people all around him helping him and supporting him. At some level, he probably doesn't think he's worth it.

Here I am dwelling again...when I really need to go get ready for work and make breakfast for my boys.

Thanks again---so much. BTW, AmIok, you are more than ok. You are articulate, insightful, and generous. My very best to you in your recovery!

LS

Hi LilSis, I'm so sorry you're going through all of this!

You've already been given some good feedback and for now I don't have much more to add, except I'm proud of you for what you're doing for yourself and your kids, and if I can help someway, even just by listening and offering a cyber-hug. There's so much support here for you, I'm glad you came out from the shadows.

Hi LisSis, sorry you are here. You can rest assured they are not "meant" to be together. A man is meant to be with his wife, not a mistress. There is no such thing as "soulmates." The affair may have been going on for 2 1/2 years, but the average is 2 yrs from EXPOSURE. This affair was really not even exposed until 6 months ago.

I think that your best bet is Plan B, however, in order to effectively go dark, it is neccessary to do Plan A so you leave a good taste in his mouth about you. Do you have any interaction with him at all?

You can communicate this perfectly in a Plan B letter.


Do you think he needs to feel needed? Does he like fixing things around the house? If so, this is one way you could conduct Plan A. Ask him for advice about something [how do I figure out what kind of oil to put in my car, etc?] or ask him to come over and fix something. When he comes over to pick up the kids, have some cookies or his favorite dinner cooking and invite him in.

I wouldn't ask him to church, though. That is the last place a WS in the throes of an affair wants to be and it comes across as an attempt to educate him.

I know it still hurts. It hurts like nothing you can imagine. My WH's A is so fresh, I'm not even in recovery yet! Although I'm closer to it than I was. Have you exposed to everyone you both know? Expose to everyone and anyone who can help you save your M. And Plan A like crazy for a little while, then Plan B.

Read Love Must be Tough by James Dobson and Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley. I also printed out every article on MB and made a binder...that really helps me too.

Like I said, I'm still learning too and others here are much more qualified than me to advise you, but I'll jump in when I can and I'll help you in any way I can. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

(((((LilSis)))))

Mel:
I have very little contact with WH (except for communication re: the kids), so it is very hard to Plan A and meet his ENs. However, (for example) he just called to make sure we were on for him picking up the kids today and I cheerfully said yes...end of conversation. Any advice on how to Plan A when contact is minimal would be appreciated!!

I need help with your other suggestion about asking him for help, advice, etc. If I'm trying to let him know that I'm stronger and have changed, wouldn't asking for help give the impression that I'm needy? I've been really proud of myself for doing all the yardwork this summer/fall and for figuring out the snowblower this winter. However, if your point is to somehow get him to come into the house for some good Plan A-ing...then I get your point (have the cookies ready, etc.)

I really like the idea of doing some Plan A-ing, but wasn't sure how, or even if I could at this point.

Thanks all!
LS

There is a HUGE difference between being NEEDY and needing someone. Most men NEED to feel needed. His not feeling NEEDED caused a rift in your marriage:

This tells him that you don't NEED HIM. Is that the message you want to send?

Another suggestion would be to have the house looking great and to have YOURSELF looking like a smokin' hottie! Focus on making yourself and your home very inviting and pleasant.

Hi Lil Sis,

I've C&P'd Lostva's (Lori) story here for you to read. She successfully Plan A'd while separated. Its a good read:

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Ok, so you guys do realize that I tend to get wordy and talk WAYYYYY too much and you STILL want me to do this, right? I'm gonna touch on a lotta stuff here. I'd shied away from posting lately, but I've actually been ASKED my opinion!! You guys don't know what a mind-field you've set off here!!

Now, I'm not particularly wise and wonderful, but I can share with you my experiences and feelings, but that's all. And sometimes those feelings don't follow the norm, so be forewarned.

OK, history first, I guess. One Monday, last spring, Robert walked in after work. He leaned over to kiss me and I said "Hi, Honey, I love you." He said, "Hi. I love you, too, but not like I used to - we need to talk." That was my last kiss. And the night of the "I love you but not IN love with you stuff." Also the last "I love you" in any form.

Within a week, he didn't love me at all, couldn't stand the sight of me, our marriage had been a mistake and he wished he had never married me. Knew our relationship had been a mistake since the beginning (TEN YEARS???) and it never should have happened. Kristin (my daughter from my first marriage) didn't care for him at all and never would. His family couldn't stand us and we had ruined his life. He couldn't count the number of times he had wished I had been in an accident and died so that he could be released from these "pits of ******". We had NEVER had a good time, never really cared for each other like we should - he couldn't even remember the fun times. And on and on....All this was news to me! We were the couple that most people envied! We had had a hard couple of years, Mom's cancer, Papa's death, but I had NO idea. I wanted to die.

THEN, he told me about PT. She made him feel WONDERFUL. He finally knew what true love really was and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. He adored her 3 year old and she loved him. I had NEVER made him feel this way, we were never meant to be, etc......you know the stuff, right? The knife turned. We've all been there.

So, I came here and lurked. And cried. And couldn't sleep, 30 pounds in 30 days, all the standard stuff. One month later, he left to be with her.

When he left, I didn't know where he was. He didn't contact us, not even Kristin. He spent some time visiting his mom, but eventually, cut away from them as well. She was my greatest strength through this mess. Now, don't get me wrong, she welcomed PT into her home, the whole family did. They were afraid they'd lose Robert if they didn't. His sister called me and told me that Robert was finally happy and I should "move on". (Man, I hate those words, what DO they really mean???) But Mom called me daily once she found out what was going on and tried to spy as much as possible. We've gotten closer than I ever imagined we could be.

PT and Robert set up house. He already had her moved into a new place b/f he left. They opened joint bank accounts, he brought her HERE when I wasn't here to get some of his things, set her up with OUR doctor (she supposedly didn't have one), took her all around OUR town (they lived an hour away) as his girlfriend. Told everyone he ran into that we were through. In VA, you have to be separated for 6 months to get divorced and he said as soon as that time was over, we were done. Taught Leah (PT's daughter) to call him "Daddy". (That hurt worse than ANYTHING, believe it or not.) No financial support whatsoever. Took two vehicles so PT could have one. He called infrequently - when he needed something (until the last month), came by rarely, usually to pick up something or hunt. Didn't give me his address or phone number. Was cold and mean to me - wouldn't talk to Kristin at all hardly (except for once or twice during the whole time.) He was someone I didn't even know.

The first time I posted here, Deb responded first...."You'll be ok, you CAN get through this, there are things you can do." Ok, so there was NO way she could know..I mean, she could NEVER have hurt like I did, loved like I did, been treated as horribly as I was. Ok, I was wrong. She DID know! And she was right - so was everyone else.

I owe my friends here my life. They calmed me down. Showed me I wasn't alone. Cried with me, took deep breaths with me, got me through way too many sleepless nights, laughed with me, and kicked me in the butt and outta feeling sorry for myself when I needed it. I think that was the most important thing of all. And helped me find something to laugh at in the midst of all this mess. I soon discovered I was looking forward to waking every morning.

So, like she said, the rawness eased - the hurt found it's place, continuous sorta, but in it's place. I started paying attention to what people were trying to teach me, got rid of my stubborness and self-righeousness. Ordered books, read, read, read! And started thinking.

You know, Robert couldn't come up with one specific thing about me as a wife that was bad. Even said so himself. But, once I got rid of the old ideas and opened my mind, I COULD!!! I mean, I had worked my butt off to be a good wife, but..... You've heard me say before that he broke the vow of fidelity, but I broke a lot of them too - unknowingly. I wasn't the best PERSON I could be and therefore, not the best wife either.

And I thought about him too. I'd known this man for fifteen years - through good times and what I THOUGHT were bad times (this mess sorta changes your perspective!!) This was not him...to abandon us, leave us to starve. He and Kristin were "joined at the hip". To say now that he never really loved her, just cared for her? Something was definitely not right. This was NOT him....not from my experience, or that of his family and friends (who he had now begun to turn his back on.) Sooo.....

Well, after reading a few books on the nature of affairs, looking realistically at my contributions to the state of our marriage, listening to my betrayer friends on this site, I started to understand. It took away the sting of his words and actions. Didn't erase it - just took the edge off. Through Harley's books and others, I learned about marriages and affairs. From Phil McGraw, I learned about myself. I was insatiable. My basic personality is to DO something. Now, I had a bit of understanding, AND something I could do! I got stronger and stronger. Sure, there were bad days. Thanksgiving and New Years come to mind, as well as one notable weekend w/ two love-busting letters. (BTW, I found out that he was thinking hard about coming home at that point and my letters talked him right out of it! The power of a love buster!! I'm glad - I wasn't where I needed to be yet!) As I grew stronger, I felt freer. I realized that I had the power. He didn't keep me going, I realized it was up to me to do that, and to keep HIM going, too! Even though he didn't know it.

First decision. Do I love my husband? Yup, more than life itself - not the things he's doing now, but the man he truly is inside. Second. Do I want my marriage back? Nope - but I want a better one. Third - Am I ready to work for it? Absolutely!! I asked myself these three questions every single day. Every morning, before I got out of bed, I asked myself these questions. Same answer.

So I loved him. And respected and believed in the man I KNEW was inside. I learned to look PAST this behavior and into the soul of the man that I was convinced was still there. And tried to understand the torture he was going through - even though he didn't THINK he was. I knew now, right? I took the good little signs and they sustained my love. I blew off the bad stuff as part of the addiction. So it wouldn't KILL my love. I believed in him and lit a candle (still do, for us and all my friends) and every time I passed it, I told him I loved him and I believed in him. The coolest part was I was also beginning to believe in ME!! TNT taught me that, the power of words and belief.

Since I couldn't talk to him, I wrote a letter to him once a week and sent it to his mom's. Pop would deliver it to work for me. They were light, funny, flirty, news from home - like he was away from camp and homesick!! Works of art that I worked hard on at first, then seemed to come more easily. Somewhere in each letter, when appropriate, I compared something that I was telling him with a good memory of ours (and then this happened and you know it was just like when we....)and laughed about it. I ended each one with "I love you and I will always believe in you." I never took off my rings. He commented on that once - asked why I was wearing them - really angry sounding. I told him I loved him, I was married to him and I would always be married to him in my heart. He looked annoyed at first, looked like he was gonna yell at me and then got quiet for a minute. Then, with a strange look on his face, he said quietly "Thank you, Lori." I laughed and flirted when I saw him. Once or twice, I teared up, but not often. I saved that for when I was alone. At the end of each of the few visits, I hugged him goodbye and said "I love you." I got nothing except "You DO know I'm getting a divorce and marrying PT - no matter what. And even if I didn't marry her, I'll never come back." I just told him to do what he needed to do, but I'd always love him. I never discussed PT with him, never mentioned her name. I never discussed us or our marriage. If he brought it up, I'd just say I loved him and I wanted what would make him happy. No more. He'd just look at me like I had lost my mind.

At first it was "pretending". But I was working on me too, with the help of my favorite book by Phil McGraw. And I wasn't sitting around waiting. I continued to love him, but I had a daughter to raise and life was happening. I knew I couldn't support us and keep this house. She couldn't stay in private school. And I didn't have much time. I knew my job would be ending, just didn't know when. So I enrolled her in public school, started working on the house to sell it. Went to HS football games, shopping with friends, movies with the kids, whatever. I enjoyed more days than I didn't. And grew stronger. So, soon, I didn't have to pretend. During this time, I forgave him. Don't remember when or how, just all of a sudden, realized that I wasn't angry and didn't hold anything against him. Robert had held marriage sacred, had always been there for me, no matter what. Had NO respect whatsoever for any SOB who would stray and was very verbal about it. For a good, kind and decent man - the most wonderful man I ever knew to turn his back on everything that had ever been important to him - something was wrong. And I couldn't love him and not forgive him for something that took him over so completely. I learned to laugh. I began sleeping, I began to live. But I didn't stop loving him. I think THAT'S moving on.

Around Dec. he started calling a bit more, bogus reasons, favors he needed. Still talking divorce. But finally communicating a bit. I just listened. Never talked about us. See, now I wasn't "playing" him to get him back. I was REALLY his friend! You know? I cared about him, loved him and wanted what was best for him. Like a real friend would. So, it was getting easier most of the time. Of course, I still wanted him back, but, I wasn't obsessing anymore. He called one day at work, wanted the Dr.'s phone number and wound up getting really nasty with me. I patiently listened and let him talk, no matter what he said, and eventually discovered that he had had a seizure, the first in 20 years, the Friday b/f. Once I thought about it and the way I know my husband is, I realized he could've looked the phone number up in the directory. He needed to talk - he was scared. And, for him, scared turns into angry. And I was the target. Why? Because I was the one he could trust. And I was there for him. I found out later, I was right. Without even realizing it, when he got scared, he turned to me.

In January, I got the letter telling me he was about to file. It was time to "get it over with." And 4 days later, he asked to come home. We took a month to make the transition and see each other. He still had not said "I love you." That came during that month. So did our first conversations about us since that very first week. I found out later that he thought he came home b/c he decided he SHOULD. Now, it didn't hurt that PT had been a B**** and I had become someone he enjoyed being around. He told his family he really "liked" me now - I was still Lori, but "more somehow". And I really liked me too - a whole lot more than I did before. I was very proud of myself for what I was doing - for my marriage and for me personally. That shines through, I think. It seems that he had been doing a lot of thinking - for practically the whole time. And then, one day, he heard a song, and it stuck in his head, reminding him of committment and all that stuff. He pushed it away and wrote that letter - fighting the thoughts. Well, on his way over here on Saturday, he heard it again. And he decided. He couldn't "move on" until he had finished this. He was coming over to fix my dryer for me (the FIRST thing he had ever offered to do) and wound up taking me for a ride and asking to come home. No real romance there, guys.

The first few weeks were unsettling. PT pulled hard and so did his emotions. There's so much guilt and other stuff. He said he wanted to move out on day 3. He tested me constantly to see if I was real and if my love was real. And, then, very slowly, he became strong. And we began to fall in love. And now, he tells me he loves me forever, loved me even when he didn't love me (that makes sense to me for some reason) and that he's 100% "in love" with me (I hate THAT phrase, too, but I'll take it from him! ) He also says he admires my courage, respects me for respecting him, even when I had no reason to, and that my believing in him made him strong. I don't take credit for all that, but it sure feels good to hear it.

Ok, now for opinions. Don't blast me, ok? I never felt humiliated or shamed. We made mistakes and bad judgements, but...stuff happens. I had small spurts of anger - at specific THINGS he did and said, but anger has never come easily for me - I believe it's simply another way of showing hurt, so I never really had to deal with the slow burning continuous anger - I just let myself hurt and dealt with it. Tootrusting is right - we can't force them. THEY have to figure it out on their own. All we can do is be there and love them - if we choose to.... and that's what it is - a choice. We're not doormats or any such nonsense. We're strong and independent and coping with a difficult situation, thank you. And this is NOT for wimps! I can't think of anything less doormatty (like that word? ) than standing strong for what you believe in in the face of all the nonsense. But I'd be there for my child and I decided I'd sure as ****** be there for my husband as long as he'd let me - and sometimes, even when he wouldn't. A lot of times it would've been a lot easier to run - For my short time, I chose the other path.

Robert didn't decide "all of a sudden". All those months of Plan A (I just do NOT have a Plan B personality!) were slowly building impressions that were eating away at his subconscious. When the time was right, a trigger (the song) brought them to the surface. I'm not so sure that he really did it to "do the right thing." I think that's the excuse for doing what he wanted to do, know what I mean? I mean, his love just grew too quickly to have just been "doing the right thing." He didn't change his mind quickly. Everything was slowing bringing him back to reality - we just couldn't see it. PT was being a B*****. I was being an angel. The fog was wearing thin. The letter was a last grasp to hang on to the "I'll never go back" thing. Fighting back against those nagging thoughts. I found out later that every time he left here, no matter how awful he was to me, he went home and was MORE awful to PT - or quiet and sullen. Then, he'd go out and do something WONDERFUL for her.....trying to hold on, know what I mean? Remember the little Dutch boy? A tiny hole in a dam is NOT a big thing. But that little bit of water, seeping through, DOES eventually break it down! That's Plan A. That's what happened to Robert, I think and so does his mom. It didn't happen all of a sudden, the damn dam just finally broke against the consistant gentle force of the water!!! (I just LOVE analogies - even corny ones!)

OK, warned you this would be long and I don't even know if I've helped at all. The saddest part is that it WAS longer....I actually pared it down a bit! TNT summed it up better than me.

Ok, so that's the closest I can come to a nutshell version. If I missed a question, let me know. I'll try NOT to be so wordy the next time around.

Good luck to you.

Love and prayers,

Lori

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Mel:
In the past, I've resisted his attempts to help because I've felt that they were just his attempts to relieve his guilt. I'd rather do things myself than have his "pity" help. And it has empowered me at the same time. But I'll admit...that's mostly my pride talking.

Maybe I'm just dense on this whole needy vs. need thing. How can I demonstrate that I need him without making it seem as if I am helpless? He has pretty much checked out and I get the feeling he expects me to phase out going to him for help with house/car stuff ("I'm paying the support she asked for, what more could she possibly want? I'm not helping pay for new tires. What don't you get about SEE YA!").

I did call him for some friendly advice on selecting a TV. Does that meet your criteria? What about asking for help with the kids (i.e.; asking him to watch them outside of his scheduled time when I have to go to a meeting), does that count? Should I ask him to help one of the boys select a present for an upcoming birthday party?

Just trying to get some real-life examples that fit my situation, given the fact that we have such limited interaction. Sorry if I'm having trouble getting this, but I appreciate your help and advice.

LS

IMHO, "needy" is when a person needs anyone and everyone to help them. It doesn't matter who it is.

But to "Need" someone is entirely different. You need "HIM" to do it for you because no one else can replace him for that need. He is the only one.

LilSis, it is very important for men to feel NEEDED. Otherwise, there is no reason for him to be there at all. Feeling needed is ATTRACTIVE TO MEN, and that is what you should do. You want to call on him to help you with things you know he is good at. And then when he does them, PRAISE HIM.

Try and think of ways to make him feel needed in ways that will highlight something he is GOOD AT. Ask him to help you HOOK UP the TV, ask him to come and fix a leaky faucet, ask him to talk to one of the kids. Ask him to do things for you that HE IS GOOD AT that involve him coming in your home. Babysitting is something a monkey can do, but if he is real good at fixing leaky faucets, ask him to fix it.

What is he good at?

Do you need him for ANYTHING?

Okay, that's a little harsh, but I'm getting it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I need him to be my partner, my lover, my best friend, my confidante, a father to my boys. (That may sound over the top/too much, but I'm just trying to make a point.) Those things are a little difficult to put into practice these days. Around D-day, he would complain that he felt like a fixture...like all I needed him for was to cut the grass, take out the garbage, etc. So I don't want to give him the impression that this is true; rather, I need to let him know that I need him for HIM, not for what he can DO for me. That I can cut the grass and take care of the garbage myself, and I still want HIM, because we have great conversations, we are passionate about the same things, because we both love our boys and our families. Does any of this make sense?

Keep in mind that I've spent half my life trying to prove (over and over and over) to everyone that I am capable and self-sufficient and never need to ask for help. It was actually a quality that WH used to admire in me, but probably not so much, deep down. And it wasn't healthy for me, either, as it turned out.

I think you hit on a key phrase, though--admiration. I think that's more important to him than the fixing things around the house type stuff. I do admire H (not WH) tremendously, but now I realize that I didn't provide him with the kind of validation that he needed--and OW provided it in bulk, and disparaged at the same time.

I will ask him to help me choose a new hot water heater, though...

Thanks, Mel. I'll get it eventually. I need to process this, I think.

Thank you, Resilient! That is perfect; so much of it resonates with me...from the feelings of the good guy underneath, to the relationship with MIL. And good ideas, too! I c&p'd into a word document so I can go back to it when I need a reminder of what this is all about.

I think you can write and send him notes. Talk about the goings on of the kids on a daily basis, like Lostva did. Make them light and cheery, perhaps slip in some memories of you and him duing the good times, but be descrete in doing so. So its not obvious.