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Originally posted in divorce section -- Respondants recommended I post here. with some adjustments, since my original question seems dated and skewed to me (this whole day later).
I moved out 2 weeks ago when I realized how painful it was for her to have me around. (I confessed an 1.5 yr-old infidelity about 3 weeks prior to that, and she wants divorce). I have repented and hope for reconciliation and am in recovery for sex addiction. She printed some paperwork from online and asked me to complete it for filing for divorce. I had not cooperated, and expected to work through a process of some sort before doing that (counseling, church, something). She is unwilling, and has now told me that she did her part by printing that paperwork, and since I won't finish the work, she is now going to act single, as the marriage is "dead" and the lack of a form filed is not going to keep her from behaving as a single.
Is there really anything to be done here? Is there any way to show how serious I am about winning her back without just ticking her off? I feel I must reach out to her, even though she doesn't want me. I feel like I need to take every rejection and press in. Until it's over, and as long as I want to repair, I have to do that, but it still feels like I'm doing more harm than good by even contacting her. but cutting off contact just seems to go in the wrong direction. This paragraph is really my key question (not to say it's really the key issue, I don't trust my perspective).
I feel like filing for divorce myself is not what I'm called to do - I don't want it.
I'm out of the house, still unsettled (I've been out a weekend, back in the house a week, then out again, now moving to a house, with another move in late January for sure). I'd love to get into my basement. The finances make this seperation untolerable long term, but I can't show that as I don't want that to be a 'weapon' and I also haven't been very good at tracking the finances (another thing I'm getting help with). The visible relief it gave her when I said I'd move out was crushing. I hoped the time and space would give her time to think, and that I could return. Right now that looks unlikely. I accept that I've lost everything. But I do want to fight, but I want that fight to be honorable, and have some hope. I'm constantly unsure if my telling her I'm still hoping for us is more offensive than the silence that I cannot believe is good for us, though she asks for no contact. I know I have a long road, but I'm still unsure of whether I'm even on the right path for 'us'. I do feel I'm on the right path for me (counseling, recovery, pursuing God, ...)
We've been married 14.5 years and have 5 kids from 5 to 11. Marriage has been rocky with unresolved conflicts over the entire period. She's never been willing to see a counselor for that. Several months ago said something like "this marriage is broken, and I can survive in it. I won't leave you unless there's infidelity, but I don't care to try and fix it". My confession gave her that out. Her father left the family for another woman when she was 11.
Thanks for listening.
I am catching up on reading here.
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I am going to post a Q&A column from Dr. Harley that best describes your situation. What I would do right now is just stall. Don't do any of the divorce paperwork. If she wants to get divorced so badly, she can go through with the paperwork and plop down the $1000 retainer for the lawyer. In the meantime, just be her friend. Don't try and push the relationship. Visit your children as often as you can. Don't abandon the family. Try and negotiate a way the you can move back in. Telling her you've changed doesn't mean anything to her, she must see it with your actions over a period of time. Hopefully, before the divorce goes through. Read up here and try to answer the EN and LB questionnaires like you would think she would answer it. I would read up on plan A and try a similar type of approach. Tell her you are committed to the marriage now, you understand how she feels, but that you want to keep the family together. Don't beg, plead, or get angry with her. Read SAA to understand why you had the affair. It will take time for her to change her mind. Here is the Q&A column that I am posting: Dear Dr. Harley,
I am in exactly the same position that TC describes in his letter that was printed in your June 17th column. Unfortunately, you did not print your response there.
I am still very much in love with my wife. We have a 21 month old son whom I adore. She is an educated woman with a very responsible career. Now, even after a year of marriage counseling, she wants a divorce. My wife is in total lock-down; she refuses to discuss the situation with me. I had thought the sessions were working, but she says she was just pretending so as to avoid conflict.
How can I save this marriage? I gave her a book but she refuses to read it. The only people she talks to want her to divorce me and therefore drive a bigger wedge between us. But I know I have changed over the last year, and I know I can be the loving and supporting man I was at the start of our relationship 10 years ago. I realize I've made too many large withdrawals from her "Love Bank", but I've been trying hard to make deposits for some time now. Is there any way I can break through her shell and get past the influence of her friends? I want to save my family.
Thank you
A.J.
Dear A.J.,
The truth is, you are in a better position to be your wife's husband than anyone on earth. You are married to her and you are the father of her child. The reason she wants a divorce is that the disadvantages have far outweighed the advantages for so long that she has made this very painful decision -- for her it is painful! But it is even more painful for her to remain married to you.
The solution is for you to see to it that her relationship with you is painless and clearly in her best interest. You must eliminate every situation where she has been uncomfortable (including your trying to get her to stop talking to her friends), and replace it with things you do that meet her emotional needs. Granted, since she is in the state of Withdrawal, at first she will not want you to meet her needs, so she may not give you much opportunity. But the reason she is in Withdrawal is that you are doing and saying things that cause her to raise her defenses. Stop trying to straighten her out and start making her life enjoyable! Then she will lower her defenses, emerge from the state of Withdrawal and allow you to meet her needs.
You've been to marriage counseling for a year, and yet she is divorcing you. Was the counselor as surprised she left as you? I'm sure your counselor has a few suggestions based on his or her observations that will help you see what it was that your wife is running away from. Find out what it is she is most afraid of if she would return. Perhaps she thinks you are responsible for her having lost her self-esteem, her identity, or being depressed all the time? If so, what does she think you could have done that would have prevented that from happening? Are you disrespectful toward her? Do you threaten her? Do you make demands? What do you do that makes her unhappy? Whatever it is, learn to overcome it.
You need to understand what she is going through, and try to accommodate it instead of change it. Be her best friend, not her adversary. The child you have in common is an undeniable and life-long link to her heart that will bring you back together again if you demonstrate your care for her in the respect you show for her. In most cases I've seen like yours, wives are willing to talk to their husbands on the telephone because there is safely in distance. Call her regularly just to see how she is doing and ask her what you can do for her. When she is comfortable talking to you on the telephone, you may suggest seeing each other, but don't push. Let her take her time. Prove to her that you care more about her feelings than your own, and you will not do anything to hurt her again.
Last edited by jmwc95; 12/15/06 09:55 AM.
Jim BS - 32 (me) FWW - 33 Married 8/31/03 No kids (but 3 cats) D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA) NC agreed to - 11/8/06 NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07 Status - In Recovery Jim's Story
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You did give her an out and it is her right to take it if she so chooses.
She is hurt beyond measure and really may choose to leave you. If she does, you should handle the situation in an honorable way that does not compound the pain that you have caused her. Let her know of your desire to heal things, seek out a counselor and suggest that you would be willing to go to marriage counseling. Other than that... at this point, you really need to follow her lead. If it is divorce she desires... you should let her know it is not want you want up until the very moment it is finalized... but make it as pain free as possible should she decide to follow through.
When I suggest letting her know that you do not want a divorce... I do not mean for you to badger her about it. Make your feelings known and then back off and give her some space. Picking your spots may be more effective than anything else. So, while your contact should not be cut off completely... you really need to follow her lead here.
The first thing for you to do in all this is to work on you though. Something in you allowed you to risk your marriage and family... and it is a big family... for 1 1 /2 years.
Good luck to you... and I hope your wife recovers from all this....
Another thought... even though it may not be directly letting her know that you want to stay married... make sure you are you are being the absolute BEST father that you can be right now.
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Agree with the above
Unfortunately, you may have to accept the consequences that result from your poor choices. Become the best individual, father and husband you can be from this day forward and hope it's enough. If not, move on knowing you did what you could to make it right but alas your wife took her biblical option and followed through with the divorce. You will make it.
I do have a couple questions:
Considering there are FIVE children involved, I have seen stats that indicate that divorce over infidelity is very unlikely (don't ask me to find them but I am certain I saw them). Basically, it boils down to it's just NOT financially conceivable. The question I have is: Your wife has now had a month to internalize this and she's still dead set on a impossible divorce are you certain no other man is involved???? (I do realize you posted on a non-infidelity board first so this likely isn't an issue).
What prompted you to reveal this old affair??? The reason I ask is many don't. It's good that you did; however, I have a sneaky tiny suspicion that just maybe you told out of desparation because you internally suspected your wife was out and about on ya. Her words to you before you revealled sounded strangely like "I love you but I'm not in love with you".
IF she's got feelings for someone else, be it an EA or a PA, then you've just handed her the ultimate rationalization and justification. Not that you shouldn't have...but, it certainly complicates trying to fight for your marriage. If such is the case, my advice to you about strategy would greatly differ. Two wrongs don't make a right and she no longer has her biblical out.
Finally...what is it that makes you think you are a sex addict???? One affair is not enough...there is more to this. Remember...this is an anonymous forum...speak freely.
Good luck
Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Thanks for your replies.
jmwc95: Thanks for the Q&A copy. It's very encouraging and specific about possibilities for establishing lines of communication and love-bank deposits, even given how repulsive I am to her.
mkeverydaycnt: thanks for your suggestions. She's been dead set against counseling for years, I've never had success at that. We even had an appointment right before I left, but she backed out at the last minute "if it's not to complete the divorce paperwork, I don't want to go". I have always assumed counseling looked like a threat to her "you go get fixed, and come back and I'll consider seeing a counselor" (that's from well before the current crises). Meaning, the offer of counseling was an accusation about her being flawed. That's my conjecture, not really truth. thanks also for encouraging me to seek out solutions to be around my family more, not less.
MrWondering: thank you. As far as unworkability of divorce, I'm not sure she understands that yet. It's absolutely unworkable financiallly. In fact, this current seperation is unworkable, but I can't yet prove that objectively, but it's high on the list so it doesn't come across as a threat (anything I say is deciet to her, so I must have a financial partner help get the facts clear for her, my word is not enough by a longshot).
I do not believe another man is involved yet. I do believe she may pursue that. I don't mean I think she has an unfaithful heart, but that she wants to hurt me. But, in the actions she might take for show to hurt me, other things could happen. I fear for her heart in that case, but I have given up my claim that "she can't do that or else" that first gripped me.
As far as the timing, I had been working on other aspects of the marriage, and this was completely not on my mind. Trying after all this time in spite of the hopelessness of a broken/unfixable marriage for everything else. When Ted Haggard's situation hit the news, I felt very convicted to keep no more secrets. So, it all came out. I thought it would be rough, but I had no clue it would be so devestating. I only understand afterward, and can't truly claim I yet understand. Every week is another cycle of understanding/despair/new hope/etc. The month seems like a year, and I think I have a new understanding, but expect yet another cycle.
The sex addict claim is not the telephone affair, but the 25 years of self-sex/fantasizing/porn etc. The affair was the 'worst thing' the rest was "any other woman you lusted after in your heart (adultery)". I'm in a top counseling practice specializing in sex addiction, in recovery etc. So, the isolated incident is an example of an escalation of the underlying ongoing addiction (probably more critical than the affair, but she does focus on the affair "a real person").
Anyway, hopefully that makes sense through the recently acquired psychobabble that frustrates me for even speaking, but is frighteningly accurate the more I read.
Thanks again. I really appreciate the insight and time it takes to write it for me.
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What strikes me, is the similarity in the ages of your eldest child, 11, and the age of your wife when her father left the family. Could she be punishing her father through you? Is your wife the eldest in her family? Is your eldest child a girl?
She may well have unresolved issues and a lot of pain from her childhood that you have just woken up!
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Was your affair a physical affair or "only" a telephone emotional affair?
I don't know the biblical ramnifications. Does she still have an out if you never committed the actual act of adultery???
There is something to be said for her strategy..."fix yourself first". Only then can you approach her about marital reconciliation.
See as you are on the computer NOW...when is the last time you look at porn on-line??? How are you going to stop??? If on-line porn was your game you may want to independently and voluntarily put a keylogger onto your own computer...even while separated which will email your wife with all you computer activity as a way to demonstrate that you have given it up. It's an ACTION you can utilize to demonstrate new behavior to back up your words. If your marriage has any shot she will be watching what you do, not what you say. This might interfere with your posting secretly here but so what...maybe she will join in and learn a thing or two herself.
Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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lorraine555: Yes, I believe much of this is tied to her father. This is all conjecture on my part. They were not well off financially after he left. Mom never really held him accountable. He never admitted to anything. I think she decided then that she would immediately divorce over any infidelity. I had no idea it would include non-physical adultery. Foolish on my part, perhaps. Anyway, I do believe there's more to it than the surface, and it does tie in to her family stuff, and it hurts that we never really talked about it all this time. Still, any conversation like this leaves me frustrated that it ends up pointing at here when it's my sin that's keyed this all off, and not just the adultery, but the lack of love for so long. While I'm not the sole cause, I'm the key cause, and I'm the only one I can do anything about, so I try to focus on that, but feel I don't know what to do. I'm told I'm too impatient. I think I could be if I thought patience was really doing any good. The cycle repeats, I'll fret, calm back down, etc.
MrWondering: Yes, the worst case was online chat and telephone with a woman over 3 month period, 3 business trips (3 or 4 total phone calls). I don't even know what she looks like and was not within 700 miles of her at the time. I think "emotional affair" is even strong, but I might be defending myself when I say that. I've gotten where I don't trust my own honesty.
Matt 5:28 is her reference for whether I'm an adulterer. I've accepted that now, but I fought that at first. I was really blindsided, but... yeah, anyway foolish I am in many ways.
The "fix yourself" comments were before this, before the event and before the confession. I accept that, but what is 'fixed'? What is too close for her to stand, and what is too far to ever reconcile? What is long enough away to return, and what is away so long it's comfortable to keep away? What's long enough that it's worth the financial cost, and what's so long that the bankruptcy is another reason to divorce? I have no idea how to proceed. I work on myself, and I can bury myself in recovery and reading and praying, but then I feel like I'm neglecting my family. But if I reach towards my family, I'm not welcome. I'm constantly going round -n round not knowing ... anything it seems. I am willing to do anything, and if this is part of the process, I'll keep at it. I just don't know if I'm in a process, or just fighting the air, or just completely wrong.
I am using work computers now which have never been a problem, and have extensive screening software. Since this started I've only used other computers (home mainly) with witnesses around, so I use it very little at all now. I had not viewed online porn for the 2 months prior to the confession, but was not in a recovery program. I am looking into buying monitoring software since much of my work has gone neglected while I've stayed away from any perception of private computer use. I value your suggestion, and am taking steps in that direction, but it's slow with me being seperated from the home and such.
Thanks again. Appreciate it. Sorry if I'm dense.
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Mr. "Wondering is usually right. Your wife may be using your "emotional transgression" as FOGBABBLE RATIONALIZATION for what she is demanding. She may already have a new man in the picture. TIME TO SNOOP. REALLY SNOOP. EMAIL LOGS AND CELL PHONE DATA is a good start... do it now before she covers all the tracks.... now while she thinks you're playing defense........
I've seen so many instances in just the past four months that indicate MOST WOMEN ONLY SAY THEY WANT OUT when they have a new boyfriend........
BH = Me 38; WW = 35; DS = 5, DD = 3, DD = 14 mo.
Feb 2006 = EA/PA started
May 19 & Aug. 15, 2006 = D-Days
Nov. 3, 2006 = Divorce Papers - (EA/PA ongoing)
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Second Heartsores opinion!!!!
JKG
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Heartsore22 & JustKeepGoin: Thanks for the input. I think the other-guy stuff does point out how unusual her reaction is, but I don't think she has someone else. I think she's so set on dumping me, probably has been for some time, that rationality has no place. The decision to dump me over any infidelity was made before she ever met me. It was underlined while in a marriage where the only thing holding it together was there was no infidelity. "I don't want to fix it. It can't be fixed. I can live with my mistake of marrying you" Those quotes from before all this. At that time I seriously wondered if she was driving me to an affair to end it. I believed I'd resisted that temptation. But... seems I was doomed all along and didn't even realize it.
Thanks for the thought, though. I will keep it in mind and give it a look. While I doubt she has another, I do believe she thinks she can pull one off the rack with no trouble and her considering our marriage dead without the paperwork might is her reasoning for proceeding with finding someone else. So, if not now, very soon perhaps.
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