True. But if you met Joe and you liked him, you would not be telling Joe that you are dating Mike but perhaps you and Joe can keep in touch, would you?... You would tell Joe that you want to see him again. That is why I am bothered by this woman bringing up the other guy - she is creating distance and lowered expectations with Gnome. Double yikes.

AGG

Hmmm.It sounds like she is "keeping her options open" which is fine for some but,I personally don't know if I would like that for dating.The last thing I want to be in is a competition for someone's attention.Yuk.I am with Karona in that I probably will date one at a time to get to know them best not have one foot,arm,leg,in several different doors.

What do you mean by "complex" if I may ask? Verbal/intellectual ping pong?

"Lets' keep in touch". ugh...sounds a bit like a send off to me but what do I know.

i see it as her being honest and basically saying she is not ready to date just one guy right now. she, apparently CAN multiple date.

so, she is telling gnome "if you don't mind that i am not going to date just you, than we can do this again"

i guess it depends on how she said it..

gnome, did it sound like what i stated above, or like what agg is implying? (say it is what i said so that i am right and agg is wrong... lol)

Geez AGG, what a circle. Did you get confused writing that?
Okay.....
No. My answer is no. I wouldn't have went thru with meeting Joe/Gnome if I had started dating another guy.

I guess AGG may have a point here Gnome.
I'll change my first reply to: Be mighty careful where this lady is concerned. Potential for heartbreak if you're not careful.

K.

Nah, she didn't say that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. She told Gnome that


This is not a case of her wanting to date both "other guy" and Gnome. She is "seeing" the other guy, but she's willing to "keep in touch" with Gnome. "Seeing" and "keeping in touch" are in different leagues.


Yup, and be honest Gnome, I am going to giggle seeing mlhb be wrong... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I cannot resolve the controversy, and I'm not at all sure that it's an important one to resolve.

I think it's very possible that she wants to "date" this other guy and keep me as a "friend." But I suppose it is also possible that she is thinking in terms of "multiple dating." Either way, I don't see what difference this makes for me.

On the one hand, I don't have a problem with either of us doing multiple dating. Furthermore, the kind of "dating" that I'm interested in doing (in order to get to know her) is not in practice distinguishable from the interaction of "friends" anyway - if there is a real difference, it is only in attitude, and I have no control over her attitude. If she already has me in the fatal "friend" box, then no matter what happens I am probably stuck there. If she is thinking of me as a fallback option then I might have a chance, but it will depend on what happens with the other guy. However, I suspect that if she had confidence in that relationship, she would not have seen me in the first place - and it may or may not be significant that she was the one who proposed getting together in the first place. (Yeah, she beat me to it.)

I did not get any signals from her that she was attracted to me in a romantic sense. But I'm not sure I'm capable of tuning in those signals, so that may mean nothing. And even after her mention of the other guy, she said something about it being too early to tell where things might go with us, so either she was being polite or she wanted to keep her options open.

So I just can't tell.

All I can do is keep the channels open, let her know where I stand, and try to be her friend until and unless we both decide that we want something more. Because there's really no question about me wanting to be her friend (whatever else happens), for as long as that is possible. She's a really neat person.

I have no intention of waiting for her to make up her mind, or of competing with anyone else. It's her responsibility to decide what she wants, and it's my responsibility to show her who I am.

My assessment is that the potential for heartbreak is high. That, however, is not a factor in my choice of actions.

Oh, and about her being complex, I meant mostly that she is a deep thinker, and that her interests and activities are very diverse. It's a description which applies with equal validity to me.

I don't think I can ever understand how multiple dating is acceptable at all...
E.g. I meet a guy and he does multiple dating... He has two options: to tell me (and I'll lose that feeling of building something special and being special) or not to tell me (and it means lying, for me it's equal to cheating).
So, either way I'd just say goodbye.
Or I miss something special about multiple dating?

- Hi baby, any plans for tonight?
- Yes, going out with Josephine ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)
- Oh, OK then, my turn would be tomorrow, right?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I mean, I could never accept that.

I'll take it as me being right, OK mlhb? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Well, that is true. But, if she has not reached a conclusion of where she sees you, then your attitude may well have an effect on what she decides. If you act resigned, then she may feel that she can do better. If you project confidence and some aloofness, she may be more intrigued. I am not saying to play games, but I would not give her the indication that if she wants to date you, you are salivating at the thought. More importantly, I'd have the same approach to a possible friendship - don't let her know that you'd be her friend in a heartbeat - let her view that as something to be earned, not a given.

One thing I discovered in my dating (darn, I am gonna give away all my secrets here), is that many women who acted somewhat reserved or disinterested in early contacts with me suddenly became quite intrigued and "interested" when I told them "thanks but no thanks". I guess it is the whole thrill of the chase thing - don't make it too easy for her, you know?


Well, that is good, but remember, friendship and dating are two different things. Very often, if you take the "friends" approach, you actually preclude anything else from developing. I'd not give her the indication that she has you at her beckon call, for either dating or friendship. Let her earn it.

AGG

I'm glad you had a good time Gnome.

What I might be inclined to do is ask her out again in the near future. See how you feel after that. If you still like her I'd tell her you find her interesting & would like to see her again. However, you're not fond of competition & if she wants to see you again ask her to call you. Be clear you'll be talking with & seeing others while she dates this other guy.

This accomplishes a few things. You've shown her your level of interest, you've exposed her more Gnome mojo, you've left it up to her which takes the uncertainty of the chase out of your hands & forces her to show you how much of you she wants.

Ugh. I've been forced to realize that I've never been in anything like this situation before. I've gone on (a very few) dates with women I'd not met before, but it was never of any great concern to me what happened afterwards. I've been interested in (a very few) women with whom I had frequent interactions, where we could get to know each other as part of our normal life. I've gone out with friends as a natural thing. But I have never before found myself interested in a woman where my only means of getting to know her is to follow the dating protocol - and I simply do not understand that protocol.

What bothers me here is that what applies for "many women" doesn't necessarily apply to any particular woman - especially one who's got her head screwed on straight. I acknowledge that the anxiety of not knowing where one stands can add a certain spice to a relationship which is easily conflated with the thrill of desire; but the kind of woman I want would value openness and honesty highly enough that the price of keeping her in the dark would be too high. Besides, it goes against my nature.

This is probably what concerns me most. I am at heart a gentleman. Even if I knew how to "put the moves" on a woman, I would not want to do so. I suspect that I'm pretty bad at flirting. I don't want to go heavy into romance unless I'm sure I think it's welcome and I'm sure it's what I want. Past history suggests that "precluding anything else from developing" is exactly what I do most naturally, regardless of my desires and intentions.

The only way I really know to express my level of interest is to tell her. The only way I know to project aloofness is to be up-front about my own uncertainty regarding where I want this to lead. As for confidence...well, if she knows where I stand on multiple dating and I'm not concerned about there being another guy in the picture, that ought to be pretty telling, I reckon.

So, as poorly as it may have served me in the past, I suppose I'm going to end up giving openness and honesty another go. Hope springs eternal, and all that. Shouldn't someone eventually be smart enough to appreciate it?

Gnome, there is no contradiction between healthy tension or anxiety over not knowing what a person thinks of you and the policy of being open and honest. The fact is that even though you do know that you like her, you do not know if she is right for you. So in a way, you ARE uncertain about how you see your future with her. That is all I am talking about - do not give her the impression that you already know that you would like to date her, because that would be premature and may actually scare her off. It reminds me of that ridiculous line in Snow White, something along the lines of "the Prince saw Snow White and knew instantly that she was his True Love". The point is, even if you do know that you would like to see her again, then by all means be open about that - but do not go beyond that, because frankly, you do not know that there is anything to be had beyond that. And do not imply that you already know that you would be happy to be her friend - that is also selling yourself short.


That sounds good. Asking her out again is more than enough of an indication of your interest - do not overdo it by saying you would very much like to get to know her better.

BTW, I think that this is all a matter of the bigger picture. For instance, after I met G on that first date, we both made it clear to each other that we would like to see each other exclusively. And that was great, and there was no need to play "cool". That was an example of where honesty and openness worked totally in our favor. But, from what I am hearing, the lady you met did nothing of the sort to imply that she wants to be seeing you. In fact, she said that she is already "seeing" another guy. All she offered you was a chance to "stay in touch". IMO, that does not deserve much warmth in return - you do not want to appear to be excited to settle for scraps. IMO.

AGG

AGG, I'm afraid that some of the distinctions you are making are too subtle for me - or perhaps my paradigm is a bit too different. I don't see how saying that I'd like to get to know her better is overdoing anything any more than asking her out again. And, I don't see how I am selling myself short by wanting to be her friend. Friendship is a wonderful thing, and the fact (or belief) that two people are unsuitable for each other as marriage partners is in no way an indication of their worth. Flip it the other way, for instance: if I were the one to decide that a dating relationship with her was not what I wanted, it would not necessarily mean that I thought any less of her as a person, or that I wouldn't value her friendship.

I am not saying that you are overdoing it, Gnome - I am just giving you a friendly reminder not to. You know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Given how enamored you were by her, I was just reminding you to stay somewhat grounded - that's all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Is this the same activity in which you already have an unrequited love for another instuctor?

Whatever happed with the athiest European?

that thought process or belief assumes a binary outcome from a personal decision that is indicative of "spouse hunting." a thought process that makes a distinction of or labels the participants of the event of two adults going out to find out about each other. Why does that distinction of "friends" or "dating" have to be made?

is that because the label represents the only way that one can look at the event? because of the "J" component? or does the label represent the viewpoint that there is an underlying goal to the interaction?

What I wonder about is why people look at the process of an adult interaction as having to have an predetermined outcome from the start? or how quickly one can make the decision?

I have been meaning to ask AGG if he is starting to believe my mathematical probability of his search as very low? and that in order to get married again, does he insist he has to go through this labeling process of dating vs friends?

Why not wait until the girls are in college to undertake this process such that the situation equals the future? no temporary step parent type role is required for making the decision or entering into the decision. . .

I guess i don't understand because of my "ruggedly independent" point of view. . . or rather my "economic survival" mode is my excuse for not requiring this label before or after the event. . ..

wiftty

Because when a woman says to a guy "let's just be friends", it usually means that she has no romantic interest. Not always, and I am sure there are exceptions, where a woman tends to eventually fall for a "friend". But if I am interested in a romantic partner, I would tend to look elsewhere than in the "let's be friends" pool.


Well, despite life being uncertain, we make decisions all the time. Do we buy or sell a stock, do we move for a new job opportunity, do we date someone we have no interest in. You do not have a predetermined outcome for any of those, but sometimes you have to take an educated guess and go with it.


Nah.


Nope. I won't date or marry a friend, and I don't need to get married to feel happy. Has nothing to do with labeling.


Precisely why I am in no hurry.


I have no idea what you mean by this.

Regardless, there is no "label" in considering some people friends and other people lovers. I think for the most part, people can tell the difference in their relationships with others in their lives. There is nothing judgemental about referring to a person as a friend or as a lover. Only in the interest of political correctness would we be afraid to make such distinctions.

AGG

FWIW, if I've determined a man is a friend the likelihood of this being reversed & becoming something more is very small, from my experience. It's never happened with me though I've heard other people say they've started out as friends.

If I had a friend & started to feel more for him I'd certainly be open to more.

Yup, my point.


Yup, me too.

We'll probably keep arguing this point for eternity, but I have never precluded the possibility of meeting someone as a friend and having it develop into romance. Same for any other women I come across, through hobbies or other activities.

Where wiftty and I disagree is that by making a decision that I have no interest in dating someone, I am somehow "spouse hunting" or violating his axiom that the "future is uncertain". That makes me giggle, because following wiftty's logic would imply that I should never make a decision about anything - heck, the future is uncertain. LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

The key difference is that with some women, I can see the possibility of having romantic interest develop sometime, and so I am all open to being friends first and seeing if it will develop into anything else. And with other women, I can guarantee that romance will never happen (not my type physically, different outlooks, dysfunction, etc). I am not going to waste my time being friends with the latter hoping for it to develop into romance. Now, don't get me wrong, if I enjoy their company for other reasons, I will gladly be their friend - not because the future is uncertain, but because I enjoy the present. But there is no "spouse hunting" in making decisions, it is something most of us do every single day.

AGG

Heh. I never can seem to escape the debate about whether a "friend" can ever become anything more. It follows me around...

AGG, I appreciate your concern about me not staying grounded, but that is not a present danger. I am very attracted to this new woman, but I know how to keep that in perspective. And I think it's safe to say that her interest in me is less than my interest in her. I sent a follow-up e-mail last Tuesday, and it was a few days before I got back a I-haven't-forgotten-you-but-things-have-been-crazy response. Given her lifestyle and the Christmas holidays, I'm not going to read too much into that, but it seems to me that if you're really interested in someone you've just met, you would find some time somewhere for a little more than that. In other words, I don't think it's a brush-off, but if I'm going to pursue her, I probably have my work cut out for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />