And I'm a bit afraid of pi55ing him off...our legal agreement is that we establish "reasonable" parenting time. If I prevented him from having the kids for his Christmas celebration (such as it is), it might backfire later.

MIL has been a huge advocate for me...is there a reason that you think I shouldn't enlist her help to get it all worked out ahead of time? Keep in mind, I don't think MIL or FIL would be under any obligation to share the plan with WH. FIL invites me for dinner, that's his call and none of WH's business. But in any case, I can't deny WH the kids on Christmas Eve just because I'm not welcome. It wouldn't be fair to them, even.

MEDC

children are NOT used as pawns

children are not psycologically safe where their mother is not welcome

they are still MARRIED

as in

MAN & WIFE

a package deal

if you think I am dead wrong, so be it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

but , I am still happily married and recovered in a wonderful marriage
so is Mimi

my opinion is valid
so is yours

mine comes from female experience of saving my own marriage

Pep

Exactly ... work it out ahead of time. I edited my post to add a couple of scenarios if you follow the advice given here. Pep and Mimi are being a great help to you here.... I just think they are off the mark a small amount on this single point.

your comment about not leaving without the kids puts them in the position of pawns. bottom line is that even though he is a WH, he is still their father and unless a court says he cannot spend time with them, the "stick" in this case is an alienation of affection. I would agree that if she cannot work it out ahead of time that the children should be with her in their home for Christmas... but not to shuffle them over there on the chance that the WH and FIl will be okay with it.

And yes, you and Mimi come at this from the female perspective of someone that helped save their M... but be thankful that you have a H that was not so far gone that it could be saved. Not all are so lucky.

Hey, LilSis! Sorry if I confused you. If you'll reread my post, you'll see that I said that some of my suggestions were going over the top...and that you probably shouldn't take things that far. I didn't take it that far with my own H, but I do know that he got worried that I might actually find somebody else!

Oh, and you don't want to do a whole bunch of stuff too close together. Listen to Mimi. What you want to do is get yourself into your WH's mind...make him start thinking about you all the time. That is one reason for doing things that are out of the ordinary for you!

Being a tad bit outrageous every now and then is good! Oh, and when doing things with the boys...be a little outrageous around them, too, with jokes and cutting up and doing things that are fun. Have ADVENTURES with your sons whenever you can. I can guarantee that they'll laughingly tell their dad all about "Hey, Dad, you know what Mom did the other day?" In short, laugh a lot with your boys...not just for your H, but for you and the boys, too!

Great advice.

Christmas Eve---- I think I'd call FIL first. "Dad, I planned on making Mom's traditional casserole on Christmas Eve for all of us and was wondering if it would be OK with you if I brought it over to share with everyone?"

Your Plan A---A GREAT job so far! Remember, as much as your H admires your wonderful qualities and skills as a W and as a mother, he wants You, his GF, back again.

Lady C did take back her suggestion about the shirt, because she didn't want your WH to actually see an indication you'd done something wrong. (Although you COULD have just been trying on clothes, lol.)

EXACTLY!!!



You are making your CHANGES from a position of sincerity and love..Right? You have to BELIEVE in the NECESSITY of making CHANGES. That's what I am attempting to instill in your MINDSET and then they will come across as SINCERE...



Your actions will feel radical to you NOW... But, you will become accustomed to this and it won't seem radical....YOU JUST MIGHT BECOME THE A WILD WOMAN like me at the direction of PEP, SUSAN and OTHERS..including MEL but she's trying to play GOODY TWO SHOES...LAP DANCING AND ALL.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



It's not EITHER-OR, Sis. In order to CHANGE, you have to go to a place where you feel like it is over the top..

You are doing this out of love for your husband and in fighting for your marriage. You are right hers ACTUALLY is for show. Rest assured she is ON HER BEST, BEST BEHAVIOR, PUTTING ON THE FULL SHOW.. THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE COMBATTING.....

My FWH continues to think that his dinner will MAGICALLY BE WAITING...warmed and everything..when he walks into the house...I still have not been able to figure out how she pulled this off..with the RIGHT TEMPERATURE and all... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Lilsis, you posted:
"I can Plan A because it allows me to be honest with myself about that, and at the same time demonstrate my love to him AND respect myself AND maintain my integrity."

Wonderfully said. Honestly, print it out, put it on your mirror or in your wallet.

There are a couple suggestions in this thread that would compromise your honesty, one is a best friend making a phone call and you responding as if it was a date. I understand that it tweaks the H, but, it isn't honest because you are actually & actively deceiving him.

Panties/no panties, roses on the bedstead, going out, smelling different all to the good.

And, I agree about making the Christmas arrangements ahead of time, with communication with your H. It is simply respectful.

And, even though the longer a spouse is wayward, the less respect the BS tends to feel, you do want to be that lighthouse.

Your statement shows you have a good grasp of your personal boundaries and realize where they can be expanded and the limits to which you will go.

Most of us here have personal experiences that color our words and advice. Personally I did stuff that I would never advise anyone to do (and not necessarily following anyone's advice!)...yet I too am in a long-term recovered marriage.

Change may be very good, but, at the end of the day, you are the person you will always live with.

You are dealing with the holidays and deadlines for deciding how to act during the celebrations, just think through your actions and the possible consequences so that you won't look back and regret...that may mean stepping out of your comfort level, it should mean protecting your integrity.

Pepper, Mimi, Melody, Lady C, MEDC, Believer, Neak all good people with good intent, no offense intended.

LOVE the plan of showing up for Christmas Eve! GREAT idea! Fun, happy, family time, you get to show off your culinary skills and save them from a take-out-pizza Christmas Eve .... That's an image that will stick with him for a long, long time!

I vote for a little bit of pre-arrangement with the IL's .... just in case WH has something really icky planned, like bringing OW (GAG!). Plus if FIL is a fore-warned, then he can help defuse any potential scene by being welcoming and happy to see you and ushering you right in - instead of being shocked and speachles and useless.

Wow, I'm so impressed!!! Loving this thread!

I did some thinking over lunch.

I think I'm getting now the sense of what you are saying about being YOU. I think you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

Agreed. There will never be another YOU. Your H wants YOU..no doubt about it. That's what he is saying, the OW is NOT YOU.

I think it's best to think of it BEHAVIORALLY. You are not changing the essence of your PERSONALITY. You are ADDING NEW BEHAVIORS in places where there were DEFICITS.

On the other hand, the OW is NOT BEING HERSELF. She is being PHONY, NON-AUTHENTIC. Your WH will learn this during PLAN B. But right now he thinks that this is the REAL HER.

She is able to FOOL HIM by the BEHAVIORS. That's why I said to think of this BEHAVIORALLY. She is evidencing the BEHAVIORS which are MEETING HIS PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS.

So your job is to continue to be YOU and PLUS to begin EVIDENCING THOSE BEHAVIORS. Then he will appreciate you as ALMOST PERFECT...

So I'm changing my viewpoint a bit. The DEFINITION of CHANGE in the MB PERSPECTIVE, I think is TO ADD ON NEW AND IMPROVED SPOUSE BEHAVIORS....NOT TO CHANGE WHO YOU ARE AS A PERSON...

Using me for example, I absolutely was not meeting my FWH's NEEDS for ADMIRATION AND AFFECTION..So behaviorally, I began SAYING THANK-YOU for his good deeds in the present, EXPRESSING APPRECIATION for his good deeds in the past, saying I LOVE YOU, leaving him LOVE NOTES, sending him CARDS, LOOKING into his EYES when he was talking to me, SITTING WITH HIM when he watches TV, etc... BEHAVIORS... But I was STILL ME, picking out the cards that I liked, using words that fit with who I am.....STILL ME....

The LOVE BANK of BEHAVIORS..fill it up until it is BRIMMING..

Regarding the Xmas dinner, DO WHAT YOU THINK YOUR H WILL FIND TO BE ATTRACTIVE IN THE LONG RUN...In whatever way that you can get there, GET THERE...

You see, maybe Pep's H is like my H..My H LOVES THE SELF-RESPECT AND SELF-CONFIDENCE that I developed during PLAN A..."I LOVE A WOMAN WHO LOVES HERSELF..IT'S HARD FOR ME TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOURSELF" is what he has said...

So he likes for me to "BE FORWARD" so would have liked for me to positively and cheerfully show up to DEMONSTRATE MY LOVE FOR HIM..this what it is ALL ABOUT NOW..DEMONSTRATING LOVE....

Lor...just saw your post as I went to post this...Thank you. I hope your words help to clarify my points. Thank you for bringing up the comment about lying and deceit especially...I just can't go THAT far and maintain my integrity. If I am willing to compromise my integrity and sense of self, then I'm really no better than WH or OW.

Lady C and Neak:
Yes, I appreciate that you did address the shirt thingie...it must have been the 1 AM/up to my arms in cookie dough that I didn't recognize the subtleties of your suggestions. Sorry! Regardless, though, it did raise the question of how far is too far...which I think is a really relevant issue worth personally exploring and one that you've all helped me clarify.

mimi, et al:
I'm getting it, slow but sure. I guess I need to process it all for a while before I internalize it. I DO have the mindset that I need to make changes. I 100% BELIEVE it...I don't WANT the marriage we had before. I totally own 50% of the problems in our marriage pre-A. Further, I am ready to go to the mat to actually SHOW him that I GET THAT and am ACTING ON THAT KNOWLEDGE in order to be the wife that he needed me to grow into. I do truly believe this is growth, not a false, contrived act that I'm putting on just to snare him, only to return to my former ways as soon as he's dumped the "love of his life."

That's where I have to earn his trust, though. I CAN be radical...I took a teeny baby step the other night (panty remark) and it was totally empowering! I know I could totally love getting more and more out there to win my man, but so much depends on even having the opportunities to be demonstrative. Grrr...frustration.

I need to be edgy, I can be edgy, you have absolutely convinced me of that! But it has to be in a way that doesn't feel like I'm overtly compromising my lighthouse-ness...AND in the ways that are doable given my less-than-optimal circumstances. How about this: I'll be a burning hot lighthouse! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Heck, forget the lighthouse, I'll just be a huge enormous bonfire on the beach. Smokin'! But still solidly planted on the beach, in the safe harbor of home. Now if he were just a moth...

I guess right now--at this early stage--I just see it as a delicate balance between being the lighthouse of safe harbor and the wild woman. I think what you are saying is that I can be BOTH, and I'm just getting that. You guys have the experience, so I'll keep revisiting this issue as I move forward, pushing myself to go over the top and test my limits. It sounds fun! and you all have certainly given me PLENTYof ideas...

I think we are more on the same page than not, do you?

LS

Did you see my post just previous to yours?

YES!! Perfect. That is EXACTLY what I was (so unsucessfully!) trying to say. Thanks for your eloquence!

(((((mimi))))

LS

(Didn't see yours until after I posted mine...we're talking right on top of each other) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Miami,

I loved your post, it's great!

nab

Hi everyone.
Don't know why, but I had sort of a bad afternoon. Maybe PMS is setting in...maybe because it is cold and rainy. I called a friend who I can always count on to remind me of all the things I need to remember...of which the addiction metaphor is key. Without that metaphor, I end up listening to Fear and Doubt, and start thinking that WH is willing to sacrifice everything...his children, friends, family, integrity, morals, relationship with God just to GET AWAY FROM ME. Ugh. Self-blame is one of the particular cruelties of A, don't you think? I am much better at recognizing it and exorcising it...it still creeps up every now and then, but doesn't debilitate and consume me like it used to.

Anyway, I've decided to call MIL tonight and talk to her about my thoughts on Christmas Eve. She is an excellent sounding board and would likely be able to give good advice about how to proceed. I'm very interested in her reaction. I expect her to be supportive, but who knows. If she shoots me down or tells me it's a bad idea, I don't know if I'd have the courage to call WH and ask if I can be a part of the celebration.

AmI: OW is NOT welcome in their home. In addition, WH and I have a verbal agreement that he will not have the boys around OW. If he violates that agreement, WH and our respective attorneys are aware that I will go to court to ask that such a restriction be included in our temporary support agreement. On advice of my attorney, I didn't push for that NC to be included in the current agreement because WH gave in on some financial issues. My attorney included the above "verbal agreement....go to court" language in the cover letter sent to WH's attorney along with the support agreement, so it is documented. My attorney thinks we are covered even though it is currently not binding, because if WH violates it, it would look very bad for him to the judge.

I did worry about your Christmas scenario myself, but now that I know FIL will be there, I can sleep easier.

mimi: I completely agree with everything in your post, and I'm so grateful for how well you expressed my thoughts for me! It is about behavior, and every couple is unique. I loved your examples. For me, I KNOW that he likes(d?) me to BE FORWARD sexually (thus the no panties comment), but I know he would react negatively if I tried to "impose" myself on his Christmas Eve by just showing up. He would not see that as confidence, he would see it as manipulative. It's all a matter of perspective... and of respecting each other's--and our own--individuality. For those we truly love, we should be willing to stretch in new, different, and potentially scary ways for the purpose of deepening the relationship or increasing intimacy. What those "new and different ways" are is, of course, different for everyone.

Off to bake another batch of cookies for yet another school party.

LilSis

DO NOT LISTEN TO THE DOUBT!!!!!!! YOUR REAL H IS IN THERE SOMEWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*groan* do not mention cookie dough right now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

This thought process helped me...

Whenever you give into the FEAR AND DOUBT, she is WINNING...

She wants you to DOUBT YOURSELF and to GIVE UP....

Then she most DEFINITELY would have WON THE WAR...

The last batch of Chocolate Mocha Rounds just went in the oven. I'll be up early frosting and then sprinkling them with crushed up candy canes. DS11 has high standards. No pan cookies for him, he's gotta have the kind that require multiple steps. I'm sure his fellow 6th graders will appreciate my efforts...NOT. Neak, are you groaning because:
A. You have baked so many cookies over the past few days that you are repulsed by the word "dough";
B. You have eaten so much of said cookie dough that you want to ralph;
C. You, too, have some baking to look forward to tonight;
D. All of the above.

The calendar and the precipitous drop in my mood over the course of just a few hours tells me it's PMS. Sorry for the TMI, guys, but that's the reality. As my high school biology teacher once said, "Try having your testes removed one a month and see if you get crabby."

PMS is fertile ground for Doubt and Fear, though, so I need to be extra vigilent. I will refuse to give in and consciously turn away from them and look for Hope and Faith (Love will come later, right?). If I wake up in the night, I will read the Bible. I will remember that my H is in there somewhere (thanks for that one, Neak), and that I need to shine my light as brightly as I can to help him find his way out of the darkness.

I left my MIL a message asking her to call. She will help me remember my H and take the focus off of WH and OW. We will talk about the boys and how I am stronger and wiser. She will tell me how warm and sunny it is in AZ. She is so brokenhearted about what has happened. She also grieves for the loss of son. I am very hopeful that she will see the urgency of getting me in on Christmas Eve, and she will facilitate that happening.

I know what I want from Santa (I'll post this to the other thead, too, in case that's the one Santa's checking); a crystal ball. Is it too late to write a letter??

LS