Anyone have any experience with a very cunning, very manipulative OW? I feel like she has her claws into my WH so deeply that he will never escape, even if he wanted to.

Some examples:
One of the emails that I discovered (this was d-day): It was clear that the context of the email was that WH had asked for some time apart. Her response (the content of the email) she talked about how she had already given him time apart and that he couldn’t stay away. She referenced times that we were away on family vacations and he could only go a couple of days before he called her (addition metaphor, anyone??). She talked about a time when WH and FIL had gone on a boating trip for several days, and when WH came home, he told her how much he had missed his family, but he couldn’t wait to see her. She closed this email with (and I quote) I HAVE THE POWER. (yes, all caps)

Very shortly after d-day, her (now) STBXH told me that he “had no doubt” that she was the instigator in the relationship. I know this man quite well (we were all friends and frequently did things as couples), and he is very low key and never has an unkind word to say about anyone, even OW.

At a neighborhood party two summers ago (a few months after the PA started), OW appeared in her bikini and jumped into the pool shortly after it got dark. The odd thing was, none of the other 40 or so people there were in the pool. A few minutes later, OW’s former neighbor and the husband of her “best friend” jumped into the pool and proceeded to take off his swim trunks. (lots of sort of nervous, uncomfortable laughter) Then my WH jumped in (to save her maybe? Yuck). The three of them proceeded to swim around for 10-15 minutes. No one else swam (the guy was still naked). The next day when we were driving our kids to swim lessons, OW told me how embarrassed she was when the former neighbor took off his trunks. I thought to myself, why didn’t you get out?

One of the first times that I went out to dinner with OW and some other girlfriends, her best friend (wife of the skinny-dipper) joked about how her H had a crush on OW. I remember thinking how I would hate to think that and how I could never joke about such a thing. Interestingly, OWBF and the skinny-dipper had just recently moved out of the neighborhood to a home some 10 miles away. This was just about the time the A started with my WH.

OW laughed once about how embarrassed she was when one of the neighborhood boys (and friend of DS) caught her in her underwear. Sort of this teasing, “I scarred him for life” type thing. To me, really inappropriate.

OW and I were “friends” throughout the A. Our kids played together very frequently. However, pre-A, the kids would only get together during t-ball/baseball season. They went to different schools, sort of had their own friends, and although we live nearby, we lived far enough apart that we had to drive the kids back and forth (they were too young then to ride bikes that distance). The A stated March 12, 2004. During spring break of that year (first week in April), OW’s son called to play with my DS every single day, and from that point on, OW’s son would call to play incessantly, to the point where my DS would complain…”I don’t want to play with ***!”

On DS birthday one year ago, DS did not want to invite OW son to his party. He wanted friends from school to come. On the Monday before his party (which was on Friday), DS was presented with a very expensive birthday gift from OW’s son. WH told DS he must invite OW’s son to the party; that it would be rude if he didn’t.

OW complained to the management at the local market that one of the guys at the meat counter (how appropriate) was flirting with her, and she was a married woman and this made her so uncomfortable. The guy was disciplined.

OW complained to my WH that as she would walk to the same local market, one of the firefighters at the fire station that she would pass would flirt with her and how this made her so uncomfortable.

OW would frequently disparage her H to her friends and me; hide money from him, etc. Shortly after discovery, I found a bank receipt from an account that my WH had opened after he moved out. The receipt was for an $800+ deposit, and written on it was “$ is OW’s money” and was signed by WH and OW. I flipped out, and when I confronted him on this, he claimed that it was OW’s money from her waitressing job, and that she didn’t want her H to get it. (What, she can’t take the 15 minutes it takes to open up her own account???)

OW was a SAHM and had been for 12 years. Before kids, she had been a special ed teacher. She did not volunteer, had no hobbies, didn’t really bake or cook well, and didn’t take a part-time job when the kids were in school. Not to disparage other SAHMs, but I don’t know what she did with her time except go shopping to spend her lawyer husband’s money. Suddenly, last spring, she decided to get a job waitressing at the neighborhood coffee shop…the very coffee shop that my WH (a cop) would hang out each morning and have breakfast. Keep in mind that we live in a mid-sized city with about a million restaurants, stores, offices, etc. This coffee shop is literally around the corner from my house, and she continued to work there after D-day. I exposed to the owner (whose kids go to Catholic school) and he said he wouldn’t get involved. I told him to ask his wife what she thought and walked away.

And the kicker…
One night, I totally lost it (see my thread for the whole ugly story…please know that I am horrified at what I did) when I discovered WH at her house. I barged into the house, slapped her and bit him when he grabbed my arms and wouldn’t let go. After I left, the two of them decided that the next day they would go get a personal protection order to keep me away from her. After my WH left, she called the police and had me arrested. When WH found out, MIL told me that he collapsed on the floor and wept. Nonetheless, he did not end the A.

I was charged with illegal entry, assault (on OW) and domestic violence (on my WH)…al misdemeanors. When it was time to go to court, the prosecutor was going to drop all but the DV and recommend a diversion program in which the charges would be dismissed in six months thereby leaving me with no record whatsoever. The prosecutor called my WH to ask if that was okay, and my MIL eavesdropped on that conversation and assured me that WH was very adamant that the charges be dropped. I can only assume that OW got a similar call. When I went to court to finalize this deal for the DV/diversion program, the deal was suddenly off the table and I had to plead guilty to the assault charge. I now have a criminal record—today’s version of the scarlet letter. I have never even had a parking ticket. Again, it seems clear to me that OW did not want those charges dropped. Keep in mind that this assault did not send anyone to the hospital, no blood was drawn, etc. It was a really, really bad move on may part, but I was totally at the breaking point, barely holding it together, not eating…rock bottom.

Again, my WH is still involved with her. I am the mother of his children, the woman he vowed to…well, we all know what they vowed, don’t we. He’s a cop, he knows what jail is like, and I was there for two days and two nights with the prostitutes and addicts and awful, awful guards (the prostitutes and addicts were not nearly as scary, and I felt great compassion for them and they really helped me). And WH doesn’t seem to be phased. I’ve seen him weep for what has happened, but he doesn’t seem to be able to pull himself out of her web.

My therapist (who is totally non-judgmental and has NEVER in the five months I’ve been seeing him said anything blatantly negative about anyone) told me this week that OW is “trouble.”

I see her as a black widow, and I know she will destroy WH. I am determined now to be a lighthouse, and I am much stronger than I have been in the past, probably even pre-A. My question to those of you with WH or FWH, have any of you experienced the sort of really manipulative and cunning OW? Any advice or experiences you can offer?

Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to try to give you a picture of OW.
LilSis

I'm not sure where you are in all this but IMHO plan B will end the OW. Plan B where she is responsible for meeting all of his needs. She is self-absorbed, enjoys the attention of men, likes money and has major issues w/ self-esteem. a good plan A followed by a strong plan B...whe will crash & burn...her true colors will show neon bright.

Melody Lane and AmIok have suggested a quick and very effective Plan A, followed by a very dark Plan B. I haven't done much Plan Aing since this all started...didn't know what to do and reacted on emotion.

I regret that, now. I've been growing and changing and getting stronger, though, and I'm determined to demonstrate that to him through my actions over the next few weeks. Knock his socks off. Then I'll go Plan B.

I just worry though, because I think she has a tremendous amount of patience and won't show her colors until she gets him to commit to her or has destroyed him so completely that he is absolutely trapped.

MIL confided to me that FIL actually used that word, too, that he saw WH as "entrapped."

You've got 2 of the best advising you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Plan A is hard, cause you really want to shake them and make them snap out of it. I agree the best way to do that is a good plan A followed by a strong plan B. Don't beat yourself up for being emotional...I think that actually supports the plan A/plan B stratedgy. WS thinks you'll get all emotional and weak....then when you don't fall apart it REALLY makes an impact. They seem to be immune to tears almost like they feed off it. Don't waste anymore tears!

ETA:

Sounds like she likes to have several irons in the fire, she might not like having to give so much attention to one. There is no way he will be absolutely trapped as long as you become his lighthouse in the fog and give him a map to show the way home (aka plan A and plan B letter)

This will work in your favor. Your OW is pretty typical. She is controlling because she knows she does not have a firm grasp on him. And she understands that he is infatuated and addicted to her, which is very fleeting. This is why she has such a short leash on him. This is a HUGE lovebuster that is likely already working against her.

Just stick with your plan, LilSis! I think you have some GREAT opportunities over Xmas because you have something she does not have: HIS FAMILY and HIS HISTORY. Christmas will be very hard with her.

Thanks, ChaCha! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have NO DOUBT that this situation will require Plan B ... so get it ready but follow Mel's lead as to when to launch it....

and this ....



will give your Plan B letter some MEAT !!!!

as in: "I can no longer risk contact with you. Already my desire to keep this marriage together has caused me to behave in ways so uncharacteristic of me, that I now have a criminal record! I must protect my brokenheart and my love for you .... Contact with you poses a very great risk for me while you are involved with OW."

Get your Plan B ducks lined up ... this is your ace in the hole ... your husband does NOT want to lose you ... and he must experience that reality in order to see what his ridiculous affair will cost him and your family.

Hang tough for now ... Plan A like you have drugged your "taker" into submission .... and then, when the time is ripe for Plan B ... do it like a pro ... all business and NONemotional .... and as dark as you possibly can go ... Plan B needs to be a reality bite ... especially after an excellent Plan A....

see an attorney & acquaint yourself with your rights
get money socked away in a safety deposit box
along with the "proof" of dultery

and for heaven's sake ... avoid OW like the plague that she is ...

take care

Pep

PS

do NOT tell your H about this site ... he will share with OW and she will come here and read about YOUR PLANS ...

Pep

I agree with Melody. Hang in there. You have all the power. The OW is sadly mistaken.

I know is is heartbreaking right now, buy years from now you will look back fondly at the time the cop's wife went to jail, and was comforted by the hookers, in order to save her family.

You need to avoid further confrontations and be the lighthouse. We will help you stay strong.

Your husband WILL see her true colors, just stay OUT of the way, and work on yourself.

I agree with all the others regarding your situation. I mainly want to share, in support of you, that the OW in your situation sounds EXACTLY like the one who tried to destroy my marriage and my life.

You said:



Yes, the OW in my situation had THE POWER. Steve Harley called her a DRUG DEALER and my FWH was strongly ADDICTED as is true with your WH.

Yes, the answer will eventually be PLAN B so that he can experience her for whom she REALLY is....



This is accurate. It was SOOOOO difficult for my H to get away from her..even when he knew it was wrong and felt that the affair was destroying him.

Mimi, your situation came to mind when I read her posts. I agree this OW sounds just like yours. Very conniving, very aware of her power. Very creepy....

Creepy is RIGHT, Mel...

PEOPLE OF THE LIE...Pep knows about this.....

Moreso than a BLACK WIDOW..such a woman is best described as being a WITCH...

Some of the best advice that I got from my GFs, Lil Sis..was to STAY AWAY FROM HER..because such EVIL FORCES will also ATTRACT you...

Wow! Thank you all for your responses! I know I can do it with all the support from you here. I will swallow hard and put on a huge smile and bake cookies and act light and airy and happy every chance I get.

mimi: People of the Lie was recommended to me by a friend as well. I did read Road Less Traveled and loved it. She IS creepy! I've used that word as well. She is evil. I've often wondered if she was a victim of sexual abuse...the only girl in a very strictly religious family with three brothers. It would explain some of the overtly sexualized behavior. I absolutely am staying away from her (have to as a matter of fact as a condition). No question. I will not risk anything like that again. My children would be the ones who would pay, and they've paid enough already.

Quote: "This is accurate. It was SOOOOO difficult for my H to get away from her..even when he knew it was wrong and felt that the affair was destroying him."

I sense this is where he is. He KNOWS what he is doing is very, very wrong, but has no map out. I've seen him cry over hurting me, and when I showed him our wedding pictures. I've never seen him cry until the A was exposed I think he is torn up and conflicted. That's why the lighthouse thing works so well for me (besides, we always had this thing for visiting lighthouses--we live in Mich. near the lake and did a lot of boating so it has this great symbolism for me).

Any feedback from your FWH about anything in particular that made it through the fog during this period in his A?

Pep: I LOVE your suggestions for PBL! I was wondering what I would say and this gives me a great place to start and build from.

Mel: I've got a few tricks up my sleeve for knocking his socks off (as you suggested) during the holidays...wish me luck. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I already put your advice into action on Wednesday when he was dropping the boys off, I happened to be bringing out the garbage at the same time (coincidence??? not really...:) ). When I walked past the truck, I gave him a huge smile and kept walking toward the house. He stepped out to help the kids out and yelled, "Hi!" and I turned around and smiled and yelled hi back. Okay, it's not much, but it's a start from the scowls I used to throw his way. The thing was, it must have made an impression because when I spoke to MIL last night she had heard about "how much it meant to him." And MIL is at their winter place in Pheonix, 3000 miles away, so it's not like she has direct, frequent contact with him.

I'll focus on that as progress...and I've got a number of opportunities coming up do more of the same.

Truly, truly, I can't thank you enough! I have felt so alone and uncertain about what to do...and everyone thinks I should just kick him to the curb for what he's done. Your support and wise advice is a lighthouse to me!

LilSis

Your job is not to protect your husband from every woman who is willing to hook up with a married man. I ended up with a harassment order from OW and agreed to NC, after which she called my H to get the A started again.

It was a difficult lesson to learn. In our state, there is no law against breaking the marital vow. Your H has to keep the vow without any legal consequences to him. The only consequence can be Plan B. You cannot change your behavior. You can change your own. The only way to get the message across that an A is intolerable is to not tolerate it by getting away from him.

By the way, I've been a SAHM for 7 years and just got a 20 hour a week job now that the youngest is in school. It's much easier to work!

If you do a search on Sophia for more than 3 years ago (Sophia being the name of my H's OW), it was about that time that I started to wise up to the fact that Sophia was not the problem. My husband made a choice and then another choice and then more and more choices to spend time with and develop a relationship with another woman despite the obvious pain it caused me. He could have walked away. He could have filed a harassment order against her. Instead, I ended up with the harassment order.

Forget the OW. There are lots and lots of women out there willing to help your husband break his marriage vows. She just happened to be the one he ended up with. The real problem is his willingness to hurt you.

Respectful

I am very sorry as to what you are going through. It is a shame that your H and the ho are treating you this way. I came to your thread at someones suggestion since I am a retired cop...
I am a bit confused about the following statement that you made.


Why did you need to plead guilty? Did you have a lawyer? Was this your attorney's recommendation? Technically, you are guilty of the crimes... and I say technically...but before pleading anything out, there has to be an advantage for you doing so. You DID the things you were accused of... but in all reality I don't see a jury convicting you of those charges.... a judge, yes... a jury no. And bottom line is... you would NEVER do jail time for this as it is a first offense.
YOur offense will carry with it no scarlet letter... since no one was seriously injured... unless your lawyer is a complete a$$... these are nothing more than misdemeanors.
As far as your H goes... yes, he is in a very bad way right now. She is not to blame though... she is a no good ho and deserves to rot in he!!... but he is a big boy that is making his own decisions... and he is choosing to be with a manipulative and coniving person. The best thing you can do for your H right now is to hold a mirror up to what he is doing and help him see her for the ho that she is.
Be a beacon for him... but do not make it your responsibility to save him from her. HE needs to make that call. You should, if you have not done so already... expose this affair to his supervisors and trusted friends and family. Even though no crime is being committed, the police force will be interested in what you have to say.
Stand out front of the coffee shop with a picket and without naming names let the patrons know that there is an employee that thinks nothing of screwing married men.
Make an absolute pest of yourself.
Contact the IRS... I suspect her ploys with money have more to do with her wanting to avoid taxes... either way... just another thing to make her uncomfortable. She will eventually get the hint that you are not someone to be messed with. The IRS will take tips annonymously and will often times result in an audit. (and send a copy of that bank receipt to her H).
I have a lot of other suggestions that would make her life he!!... but for right now, I hope some of this might help you...

Oh, and please remember to take care of you.

Hi Lilsis,

I just wanted to point out something that jumped out at me while reading your post. "The deal was off the table" and you were arrested. I can almost guarantee you what happened. She blackmailed your WH. This woman is a psycho and your WH is a cop. She has some kind of dirt on him, maybe just the affair dirt, and she is holding it over his head. He is probably worried that he might lose his job, etc. The crying that he does appears to me that he knows he is hurting you, loves you, but is in over his head. Go rent Fatal Attraction. Is there one close friend of your WH's that you could go talk to and let him know what is really going on? My Ex is also a cop and I was surprised at how supportive of ME all his friends were.

Don't go picket the restaurant, people will start to think you're crazy and won't believe you. Just smile and hold your head high and people will SEE the truth.

You need to protect yourself and your children from that loser 'ho. She is going to control, manipulate and suffocate him, and then move on to someone else for the attention she seems to so desperately crave.

Good luck and take good care of yourself.

Count me in on having a very manipulative OW in my situation also. She wasn't just manipulative, but she had a goal and was determined at all costs to achieve it.

I was horrified at the things I heard in her months of voice pages to my then husband, unbeknownst to both of them. 11+ months worth, averaging 14 a day. There were times I almost felt sorry for her hearing the lengths she'd go to make him hers, it was pathetic. That sounds so disrespectful, but she was so desperate and coniving.

She "played" the needy, sex and jealousy cards to the hilt. and she was not needy, quite the contrary, she was a bulldozer ... pushy and mean doesn't cover it.

I'll never for the life of me understand why these type of woman feel that having someone else's husband will save their lives. But they do.

One thing I heard that scared me the most, was when she started saying she wished she was me. That she wanted to be me in every way, and have everything I had, career, husband, house, etc. etc. It became excessive. (I wondered if she wanted my cancer too?)

Then the harassment started, and I was forced to take her to court, filing an anti-harassment charge against her using my ans machine msgs from her to me (calling me a cancerous C word). The judge went after her and told her she'd be incarcerated if she violated it. (BTW, I had never met the woman before the court date) I have to admit, I was more fightened after that beacuse now she was extremely angry.

To this day, regardless of how much she manipulated, I still hold the responsibility of my ex-H's affair with her squarley on HIS shoulders. He was not a victim. He made the choice.

Jo

for the record... unless you live in a very small town, the police have NO say over what charges are brought against you... nor do they have any say in plea bargains. This was most likely due to pressure from the "victim" here that does have the most power to see that a plea bargain is not offered.

I thought I could offer a little inspiration for your desktop. In my experience little things mean a lot. It will remind you of all of us pulling and praying for you.

Wallpaper 1
Wallpaper 2

MEDC, to respond to your questions about the case:
I did have an attorney. He led me to believe that the offer (DV w/ diversion) was pretty much a done deal when we went to the settlement conference (w/ the judge and assistant prosecutor) a week ago Monday. It was on the following Friday that we went back to finalize it, and discovered that it was a no-go. The chief county prosecutor himself (the guy who tries all the big-time murders) nixed it. I was very suspcious that my WH had pulled strings until MIL told me about the conversation she overhead with the prosecutor. So I'm fairly certain that OW was the one who put up a stink at me getting off so "light." (As if what she and WH wasn't an assault of a much worse and brutal kind.)

I pled guilty because I had three charges against me and unless I wanted to go to trial on all three, it was take the one and the other two were dismissed. I know...cop friends have told me that I would have been a very sympathetic witness, etc., but I just can't stomach a trial. I also spoke to another attorney who used to work in the prosecutor's office who told me that if I withdrew my plea and made waves that the prosecutor would go after me with big guns and it could end up worse. I've got enough going on, and I can't afford a ton of legal fees either. I wanted it DONE. After a bunch of boo-hooing, I decided it was not the end of the world and I'll live. I've lived through worse. I know I will not do jail time; probably court costs and some community service. The woman who is doing the pre-sentence investigation was horrified at my circumstances and I'm sure will be sympathetic (she suggested I withdraw the plea because she thought it was so unfair). I also know the judge, who thinks I'm a "lovely woman." He had been in favor of the DV/diversion deal, too. Hopefully at sentencing in January all will go well (doesn't seem like much has gone well recently, so my luck's bound to change sometime, right?).

I have exposed to ALL...after my arrest, everyone at the dept. knew. That kind of gossip spreads like wildfire. As a matter of fact, one of WH's co-workers came to visit me in jail. Another cop friend who is retired told me he doesn't know how WH can even show his face at the dept.; he broke the unwritten code about taking care of one's own problems w/o involving the cops. All the cops I have spoken to are very disdainful of WH's behavior and while not approving of my behavior (rightfully!), they are sympathetic. No one EVER thought it possible that WH would be less than morally upright. He fooled A LOT of people, and cops tend to take pride in not being fooled.

One thing that has always bugged me is that WH works patrol in our neighborhood, which is also OW's neighborhood. After d-day, I told OWH to call WH's supervisor and ask for him to be reassigned, but OWH never did (he's a super nice guy, but kind of a pansy).

You are right...none of OW's actions take WH off the hook. His pants didn't just fall off and no one made him lie. He absolutely has his own issues that he needs to own up to and address. My concern is to what lengths OW will go to hold on to him...and my fear that she is willing to do whatever it takes because she cannot afford to lose. She has three kids of her own who go to private school, no job and no marketable skills (she'll have to back to renew her teaching certificate). She'll get some spousal support from her STBXH for a couple of years and on-going child support, but that's not going to cut it. She needs a man. I guess she hasn't thought through how much a cop makes, especially one who is paying child support to his ex. She won't be shopping at Ann Taylor while the kids are at school anymore.

No, I don't live in a small town and I know that the cops didn't have anything to do with the charges that were brought...however I am not so naive that I don't think that my WH could have swayed things. He works with prosecutors all the time...he's one of their boys. However, as I said, it turns out that didn't happen; he asked for them to be dropped. I agree with you...I'm SURE it was the other "victim" who applied the pressure. I suppose she could have raised a stink for the prosecutors if it appeared they gave special treatment to a cop's wife. OW's STBXH is an attorney BTW.

Anyway...that was a long answer. Hope I answered your questions.

LilSis

Resilient: That woman (can one even call her that??) in your case sounds....wicked, evil, dispicable, scary, inhuman just for starters. Psychopathic maybe? In my case, the OW is too smart to show that side; she would never leave evidence. She is able to come off as the innocent bystander who is just following her (cold, hard unfeeling) heart.

OW's script: This is really so hard for me to know that I've hurt anyone, but I must be with my true love. We are soulmates and can't be torn apart. I'm so sorry; we never meant to hurt anyone. (Flash puppy dog eyes and summon up a crocodile tear) BS is SOOO scary and crazy! Please WH, protect me! What WILL I do? I will help everyone see how wrong she was for you by having her arrested. Now everyone will know why you had to leave her, WH. Then we will be the victims and she will be the criminal, and everyone will come to accept our relationship.

Fortunately, I do not believe they have fooled anyone, at least not anyone who knows me...and as far as anyone who doesn't know me, I've gotten to the point where I don't care what they think anyway. I know I can hold my head up. I'm a great mom with two beautiful, intelligent boys, I have a great job that I love, I have wonderful, supportive friends and family. I'm a fighter and a survivor and I know that even though there are still bad days, I WILL make it. (Que music)

I also agree that it is not all her fault. No matter how appealing she made herself, my WH failed to honor his commitment, in every way.

10swords: What a thoughtful gesture. Just the scene I would imagine: a warm, cozy house with lights shining. People her amaze me! Another "gift" from going through this is realizing the depths of compassion that people are capable of.

One book I read talked about how the soul is like a balloon...it's elastic. Through extreme suffering, the balloon expands...but also makes it capable of feeling extreme joy, love and compassion that would not have been possible had it not been stretched through suffering. That metaphor clicked with me.

Thank you again, all!
LilSis

"OW's script: This is really so hard for me to know that I've hurt anyone, but I must be with my true love. We are soulmates and can't be torn apart. I'm so sorry; we never meant to hurt anyone. (Flash puppy dog eyes and summon up a crocodile tear) BS is SOOO scary and crazy! Please WH, protect me! What WILL I do? I will help everyone see how wrong she was for you by having her arrested. Now everyone will know why you had to leave her, WH. Then we will be the victims and she will be the criminal, and everyone will come to accept our relationship. "

Bwaahaahaa - I THINK YOU'VE GOT IT!!!!!!!! It made me spew my coke all over the monitor.

Plan B required him to SEE her for who she REALLY is..he says that she couldn't keep up the "BS" 24/7. So, during Plan B, he began to miss ME....the ME that I was during Plan A...

So...begin to COMBAT HER by doing PLAN A...rise to your HIGH LEVEL..shine your LIGHT...be yourself..the "lovely" lady that you are....

What made your marriage vulnerable to this affair?

Good question, mimi. Although I didn't see it before, there were certainly issues on both sides. For my part, our first DS was born in 1995, 11 months after we married. At that time, WH was working nights, which was really hard on us both as I was still working. We lost virtually all of our "couple time." My dad was diagnosed with cancer in 1997. Our second DS was born a year later, and after taking a year off, I went back to work part time. So I was very caught up in parenting, a new job, and my dad's illness...along with the usual everyday responsibilities of life. But I won't let myself off that easy...the expectations I had for myself were higher than anyone else's expectations of me. I always had to do things right, perfectly, never leaving anything to chance. Never let anyone know that I wasn't perfect, composed, etc. No chinks in that armor.

I know now that I was so busy with all of that, I wasn't making our marriage a priority...I truly took it for granted.

My dad died in 2001, after an ugly, prolonged period of suffering. He held on for a long time. My mom was devastated...we all were; my dad was a wonderful, caring man who was well-respected and loved. His death was very, very hard on me. I know now that I was quite depressed, but at the time, I felt like I was getting through okay (the house was still clean, wasn't it?). Until the A, watching my dad die was the worst experience of my life. After d-day, I told my WH that one of the reasons I married him is that he had so many of the same qualities that my dad had. WH began weeping when I told him this.

So for my part, I think it was much of the stresses of everyday life taking my attention away from my marriage, my own unrealistic expectations for myself, and the death of my dad that distracted me and drew me into myself. There we have (check) motive.

For WH's part, he hates his job and has been for years sort of chronically depressed about that. About three years ago, his sergeant and another co-worker retired--both men were excellent role models of what it means to be a cop with morals and integrity. WH admired them greatly, but when they left I think he drifted. Without their grounding, his cynicism increased. He's highly intelligent, so he is incredibly bored by work. OW lives in the neighborhood and was a SAHM, so he'd stop by and chat with her from time to time. Due to his work schedule, he has a fairly significant amount of time off during the week when I am working (I work during the school day). There we have (check) opportunity.

He is also a HUGE conflict avoider and really a pretty poor communicator when it comes to feelings/emotions. There is only one time (@ 5 yrs ago) that he mentioned to me that he was not feeling happy/fulfilled in our marriage, but he couldn't articulate what was specifically the matter or what I could do. I got incredibly frustrated and blew up at him. ("What do you want from me?") Needless to say, he never said anything again, he just drifted away further and further. I was so busy keeping kids, home, work together that I didn't have time, nor did I feel responsible, for prying open his tightly locked emotional box.

When I look at ILs, things make a lot of sense. WH has a lot of PA tendencies that I believe come from his dad. His parents are very closed (although I am now very close with MIL) and harsh words and conflict--even diagreements!--are not tolerated. It's dad's way or no way. If that doesn't work for you, you better be ready to sweep it under the rug. I call their house Denialville.

Many changes that I have made came from ingesting a whole lot of humble pie. I am much more content to just let things be and not get to me...whether the kids are arguing or jumping around acting goofy, I don't feel compelled to straighten things out. The kitchen floor isn't mopped every Friday like clockwork...may not get mopped for a couple of weeks. Sort of an "it's not the end of the world" attitude. Who needs perfection, anyway?

Also, I feel much more compassionate, have much more humility, and feel more open than before. I've been forced to rely on others for help and guidance...and I never asked for help before. Now I do, and don't feel automatically like I'm a burden. I've had the good fortune to be able to be there for others (two friends are experiening marital problems and I've been a shoulder for them). So I know how good it feels to help someone in need...sort of like paying it forward. I also don't have that same sense of worrying what others think all the time. I've been degraded, locked up and rejected...look, I'm still breathing and my family loves me! I guess now I know what really matters. It all comes down to love. It's as simple as that. If I have that, I have what is important. No matter what happens, I know that I am still me, I am still whole because I have love. I'm just a little soggy sometimes.

That's probably more than what you were looking for, but thank you for asking. Composing it and thinking it through is therapuetic...but I'm guessing that's why you asked. (and if I spelled therapuetic wrong, I don't care...how's that for progress?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LilSis

A question about in-laws. I mentioned before that denial is their standard operating procedure. They have allowed WH to live in their home since he moved out in July. I have had great difficulty with that and have confronted them on it many times. Their defense is that they love their son unconditionally and they'd like to be able to influence him in any way. They also claim that this situation is better for the boys...when they visit it is a familiar, comfortable environment for them. Finally, they think I would experience less harm financially because he will not be supporting two households.

I can (and have) refuted each of these. To me, unconditional love does NOT mean enabling your son's self-destruction. They refused to put a boundary on him that while he is living under their roof that he have no contact with OW. FIL seems to think that is unreasonable...I guess he thinks that WH can wean himself off OW ("What should we do, LilSis, put a GPS on him?"). If they established that boundary, to me it puts the realistic burden on WH...either honor it, cross it and subsequently lie to his parents, or find his own place. Those are the consequences; let them fall freely on his head.

As far as giving the boys having a familiar place...again...let WH deal with those consequences. I maintain that the damage done to the boys if they had to go someplace unfamiliar and uncomfortable for a few months will be far less than living a lifetime with a broken family. Same goes for finances...let him experience the true consequences! Guess what...child support is dictated by state guidelines so there's no hedging there. I'll get what I'm owed and it will be enforced by the state. I'm protected. He's the one who will have to figure out how to make a go of it.

So here's the current situation with ILs. My MIL left a couples of weeks ago to their winter place in AZ...ALONE! I believe she couldn't take it anymore, but is incapable of standing up to her H after 45 years of marriage in which she was controlled. She will be gone for Christmas--this is amazing to me! I go back and forth...is she just running away (denial) or is she standing up for herself in her own way?

When SIL and BIL #1 found out MIL would be out of town (and knowing I wouldn't be there), they immediately decided to do Christmas with SIL's parents in Canada. That leaves WH and FIL for Christmas. How sad and pathetic is that (imagine a Christmas dinner prepared by them...Hungry Man, anyone?). I can't believe (well, okay, I can) that WH feels no responsibility for driving his mom away. It would be a huge disappointment for the kids, who are accustomed to a delicous feast, a bustling house, lots of cousins, gifts, etc. (another consequence)

However, it seems other ILs won't allow WH to experience that consequence. BIL #2, his wife and three kids are now planning to come on Christmas Eve from Fargo. So it seems Christmas may not be so patheic after all. BIL will bail out WH by bringing some warmth into the home. Again, I'd rather have the DSs experience one pathetic Christmas Eve than a lifetime of Christmases split between mom and dad. BTW, Christmas Day at my mom's will include (as always) the delicious feast, presents, cousins, etc., so they won't feel completely gyped.

So finally, my question...do I point out to BIL and SIL that by celebrating like everything is wonderful and normal is doing a diservice to WH by not allowing him to experience the consequences of his actions? HELLO, Denialville!! Can't these people EVER acknowlege the elephant in the room?? BIL and SIL were VERY supportive of me when they visited this summer, but I have recieved only one email from SIL since...and it was in response to an email from me. No checking in, no "how are you and the boys doing," no "is there anything we can do," no "oh, we're so sorry you got locked up and we are thinking of you."

On the one hand, I feel like I should point out that pretending is not helpful and sort of call them on their denial/enabling...on the other hand it probably will do nothing to change their behavior. What do you all think? (This is total opposite of BIL and SIL #1 BTW, who live here in town and who have been there for me time and time again.)

Thanks, everyone.

LS

Using the ENs, as described by Dr. Harley as your reference, what specific ENs do you think that the OW meets? What are your WH's primary ENs?

Notice that I am saying that this is ALL ABOUT YOU.

Knowing about the OW is helpful for combatting the war but the main goal is to develop YOUR PLAN.

I ditto Mel ... this OW-drug-dealer seems nearly identical to the one who had her hooks in Mimi's H

Pep

Regarding your in-laws....



use this ....

write or call your in laws (I prefer to put it in writing so there can be less misunderstanding)

tell them something akin to this:

"It is my understanding that you have NOT choosen to require that H not see XXX while living under your roof.[color:"blue"](use OW's MARRIED NAME ... call her >>> Mrs whatever or >>> so-and-so's wife.... from now on whenever refering to her ... do NOT use her first name, ever...be sure to always reference that she is also still married)[/color]

I respect that is your choice to make. Thank you for letting me know.

I am certain that you'd agree, an adulterous relationship is inappropriate for my children to be around.

Because I cannot be certain the children are 100% free from Mrs XXX's influence when they visit you in your home, I am making the choice that you are most welcome and encouraged to visit the children in our home.

It is my duty to bring up the children with morals and values, and in order for me to do that, I must be vigilent that they are not exposed to adultery and disrespect for marriage vows.

Please call whenever you wish to visit the children. I look forward to many visits in our home."

see..... how this works

no DJ
respect for their decision
but making your decision as well


Pep

reach out to MIL
call her 2-3 times a week

my guess is ... she was once a BS and this has triggered her BIGTIME

call MIL
frequently
ask for her advice (even if you have no intention of following her advice)

"Mom, this adultery is just so cruel. Have you any suggestions of what I can do to protect myself and the children from all this hurt?"

"Mom, have you ever been in this position?"

get her to open up... she may prove to be a major ally in the future

seems she is fairly annoyed with her husband right now !!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

NO

do not POINT OUT anything


not your job to educate them .... unless they ASK.... and if one of them does ask .... there is a very useful, non-disrespectful way of stating your position... (more later)


YOU begin by saying something like "H's adultery-choice sure has put all of us in an awkward position, hasn't it?"

pause & wait for response

"I know it might make you feel that you are placed in a position where you have to choose ... but please, I value your friendship, and I don't want H's choice of adultery to come between us.

Please feel free to call or write anytime. Just to chat. It would help me so much to have family connections keep in touch. I feel so lonely at times."

see... friendly-like and NOT full frontal educational or confrontational ... just letting them know you value their friendship.... see?


I think doing that would DRIVE them away ... you want to build alliances in his family ... not break them


they probably know you better...

remember

an olive branch offered from your position as THE LIGHTHOUSE

is going to pay you dividends down the road

and when you Plan B your WH ... you open up MORE FREQUENT communications to his family ... something Mrs Ratturd cannot do at this time !!!!

You beat her to it.

Pep

Of course, I agree with my Pep 5000%..MRS. RATTURD...LOL...

Sis,

What's the nature of the interaction between you and WS? Phone contact? Does he come home at all?

Mimi <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think this M is sooooo ready for Harley method... such a great opportunity

Sis...>>> do NOT bad-mouth H in front of his family or his coworkers ... if you must blow off steam ... tell them something like:

"I have learned so much about myself from this experience. This experience has shown me the value of my marriage more than ever. I just HATE adultery. Adultery is so cruel and so antisocial."

in other words .... you bad-mouth [color:"red"] a d u l t e r y [/color] NOT your H

and become very obviously PRO marriage/family

you can Plan A indirectly, you know...

when you are talking to one of your BILs or SILs or FIL or MIL ... you admire something about your H .... something you miss....

"H is such a great kisser ... I miss those warm intimate moments so much"

many men have ADMIRATION as one of their top ENs

so you admire the heck out of H indirectly ... because his coworkers/friends/relatives WILL tell him the nice things you've said about him

Plan A is bitchin' !!!!!!!



see?

Pep

You know whats hilarious, OW in my sitch tried to play the victim card early on. She kept telling my then H how scared she was of me finding out they were having an affair. That she wanted him to protect her from ME. lol

Flash foward a few months later, and because he hadn't left me for her, I was the one needing protection from her.

All the advice Pep, Mimi and Mel are giving you is the right implementation of Plan A for you, Sis. You're getting support from the MB best and wisest.

We're rootin for you!
Jo

Bravo!!!

I love this!

I come home from church followed by lunch w/ BIL and SIL #1 and look at al the great advice I've got waiting for me! You women are GREAT!! Okay, so much to respond to; I’ll go through them one at a time.

RE the ENs: I believe one of his highest ENs that I did not meet was RC. He is 6’3” and very athletic. I am 5’1” with shoes on and not at all athletic. I’m not out of shape (I’m up to 97 lbs), I just am very uncoordinated and always have been. I would love to bike, hike or walk with him—and have told him so—but he would complain that I wasn’t fast enough (his legs are about a foot longer). Even biking he wants to go faster than I can really go comfortably. Just when the A got started, he and Mrs. Ratturd would go biking together on the trail near our house. She is bigger and more athletic than me, so apparently she could “keep up.” Ugh. Also, it worked to their advantage that they would go biking in the evenings, when I was home with the kids and her husband was home with their kids. How’s that for convenience. Apparently the two of them would also go running (he would say he was going to “walk the dog”…how right he was!).

His other big EN is admiration (Pep was right on with this). I’m sure OW(akaRT) showered him with it and really made him feel like a hero for rescuing her from her dismal, practically arranged marriage. Also, although he’s very intelligent and good at his job, he doesn’t get a lot of kudos because he is not at all ambitious, and doesn’t put himself out there to be rewarded. He quietly does his job, diffusing things rather an escalating them, but as a cop that’s not what gets noticed. I can absolutely work on this one, but it will feel VERY forced at this point. I can focus on the kids and his love for them, I think, without feeling like I’m totally blowing sunshine. And stuff like “that shirt looks nice.” (Ugh…what if OW bought it??) Just keep in mind that this is for the greater good…Gulp.

RE the ILs and suggested letter: Love it! and the way you use language is Pulitzer-worthy, but not sure that it would work as is. WH lives in their house, so that’s where DSs go when they spend the weekend with him. To be clear, ILs are very much opposed to WH’s relationship and OW is not welcome in their home (and never will be according to them). They have actively attempted to dissuade WH from continuing to see her, but again, my point is more about them failing to set a clear and decisive boundary that he should not see her AT ALL as long as they are providing a roof over his head. As it is, with no boundary, he’s cake-eating with them. That said, the way you frame the issue in the sample letter is very helpful in understanding the importance of HOW issues are addressed productively and respectfully. It certainly can apply to many situations.

RE relationship with MIL: We are very close, and she is an ally. It is actually easier to have a relationship with her now that she is in AZ and is not so enmeshed; she was feeling very much in the middle. She has not confided that she was a BS, but I have wondered given the propensity for this to run in families…it’s a possibility. I have opened up to her a great deal and she has seen first hand my pain, holding me while I sobbed uncontrollably. She also knows how concerned and fearful I am for WH…my feeling that he is self-destructing, and she agrees. She knows I love him. She has also seen me grow spiritually through this process, and we have had long spiritual conversations. In many ways we are closer than my mom and I. I will continue to talk to her a couple of times a week; we both enjoy it and it is very sincere.

RE relationship with BIL and SIL#2: Great advice; I thought my first reaction might be wrong. I am seeing that this involves a lot of hard swallowing and not going with the emotional reaction, being a lighthouse even with extended family (this is an a-ha! moment for me!). Based on this insight, I will actually reach out to them while they are here to facilitate interactions between the cousins rather than waiting for them to initiate…you are right…this will pay dividends later with both WH and ILs. You women are GREAT!!

RE contact with WH: Limited to phone contact. I always have to leave a message on his cell…he usually won’t answer if he sees it’s me…then he will call back. Our phone interactions have been very brief, but friendly as of late. When he drops off the kids, he just pulls up in the driveway. When he comes to pick them up and they don’t come out, he stands outside the kitchen window. Should the kids and I “be busy” upstairs so he has to knock, come in, whatever, to get our attention? Anything to get him in the house where it smells like his favorite cookies and his favorite kitty can rub up against his leg? (Am I getting this now, ladies?)

RE no badmouthing/yes admiration: As I mentioned, I think admiration is one of his top ENs, and one I totally failed to recognize (I always thought he was SO self-confident that he didn’t need validation that way…I was dumb). The example quote you gave (“I have learned so much about myself…”) is almost verbatim what I have said repeatedly to MIL (and she is truly proud of me)! Yay! And the thing is, it is the truth! I’m sure I will have the opportunity to say the same to BIL and SIL#2 when they come for Christmas. I was even fairly kind about WH in talking to BIL and SIL#1 today (which is actually hard since SIL is almost militantly anti-WH). Hey—I’m doing well on this one! Hooray for me!

So help me do better…does it work as well when I refer to admirable qualities that he USED to exhibit? (see next paragraph) Or should I refer to good qualities he currently has (that’s a shorter list, frankly).

Please give your opinions on this: I’ve been telling the kids that when their dad and I married, I admired him so much: he was so compassionate, intelligent, kind, caring, fun—and I’d like for them to grow up to be just like that man. Unfortunately, (I go on) he’s not acting that way so much right now but we can all pray that part of him will begin to show itself soon. I very much want them to be proud of their dad, know he’s not completely evil, and recognize his admirable qualities…but neither do I want them to think his current behavior (not necessarily adultery, but not honoring commitments, hurting others, etc.) is in any way acceptable. When you make a bad choice, you need to recognize what you’ve done, stop doing it, clean up your mess, and apologize. Basic playground rules. This strategy won high marks with DS school counselor in terms of DS well-being…what do you think in terms of Plan A, Drs. Pep and Mimi?

Have I mentioned that you women are GREAT!! This is unbelievable. I can do this, I know it…now that you’ve told me what to do and how to do it. Time to knock some socks off and prepare to go dark. I was thinking mid-January, about the time OW’s D becomes final. I’m sure the pressure will be on at that point. She will no longer have any legal restrictions on contact between WH and her kids (her STBX required that), so I’m sure she expects WH to become Mr. Brady to her Carol Brady ASAP. Any reactions to this idea of a timeline?

Have I mentioned you women are phenomenal?

As usual, feedback is most welcome!
LS

How about calling him on his cell and leave the MESSAGE that you were thinking him and are calling TO HEAR HIS VOICE...CLICK...

Start doing this MORE OFTEN.. but not every day..."Hi, how are you?".."it's me again"..."Xmas reminds me of the time when we"...cheery..uplifting... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Need any HELP with anything around the house?

hey mimi

should i call and leave those kinds of messages too? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If I catch you doing this, Eav, your neck will be wrung along with your WH's.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Dear Sis (97 pounds of piss & vinegar & sugar & spice)

you are a quick study <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

here is one more thingy ... when H's "affair" comes up in any conversation ... without correcting the other person ... YOU always call it ADULTERY ... and not "affair"

when one says "affair" ... one thinks of Deborah Kerr and Cary Grant at the Empire State building, ya know?

"Yes, H's adultery has been a spear through my heart, but I am tough and I think our marriage can survive adultery, if we both make an effort."

Hang tough & listen to Mimi ... she's the best advice giver .... you'll see.

Pep

LOL at Eav! you brat! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The "ALWAYS HAVE BEEN" is the key here that should tell you that he is NOT ATTRACTED to her body type or athletic prowess. It was probably the admiration and attention she provided..showing INTEREST in his activities.

Your WH continues to be ATTRACTED to WHATEVER HE INITIALLY FOUND TO BE ATTRACTIVE ABOUT YOU...This is your ACE IN THE HOLE....I had forgotten these things..and when I went back to those BASICS, it BLEW HIS MIND...I heard him say stuff like: "Why did you stop doing etc., etc....this is what I wanted you to start doing again...

Remember: The OW is just learning about him. It's FUN in the beginning of a "DATING" relationship BUT you ALREADY KNOW the TOUCHES, the SAYINGS, the MOVES, the RECIPES..without having to ASK HIM..without having to GUESS...this is YOUR MAN..MAKE CLAIMS ON YOUR TERRITORY....



It's alright if it feels FORCED. It takes PRACTICE and you will become more comfortable with this. It will begin to come naturally. YOU WILL BE UTTERLY SURPRISED BY HOW HE WILL LAP UP ANY AND ALL ADMIRATION LIKE A PUPPY!!



ANY AND ALL ADMIRATION WILL DO...It will FEEL like OVERKILL because you probably are not accustomed to doing this...it is what we were supposed to be doing as wives because MEN LOVE THIS...showing appreciation and RESPECT.. it's what the OW are so GOOOD at....especially the HOish OW like ours...YUCK!!!!

Okay...here's what I did today. I got to work and an email had come through with a link about a new restaurant opening in my neighborhood that is owned by the same people who ran this out-of-the-way mom and pop place that WH and I went to years ago. I forwarded the link to WH (subject line: Yum...) and added, "Remember when we went to So-And-So Grill?" Left it at that and hit send.

Am I getting it??

Then I called him and left a VM (of course), a very perky VM. I asked him to call me back so we could talk about DS's Christmas program tomorrow night, because I thought it would mean a lot to DS if we all went together, and suggested that he pick the DSs up from school and bring them by the house prior to the concert so that DS could change into appropriate clothes and we could all go from there. He called me back a short while later and said that sounded fine. He then asked if there was anything else going on and I said, "like what?" and he said, "I don't know, like Christmas presents?" I should have had another conversation item in my bag o' tricks, but I was sort of tounge tied. He told me what he got them for Christmas, etc. I now realize I should have gushed over what GREAT things he got them, but frankly I wasn't real pleased to hear that, among other things, he got them some GameBoy games. It's a battle to get the kids to put those things down sometimes. but I kept my mouth shut, and congratulated him on getting one of the DS an ipod.

I then told him that I could use his help or input on getting a new hot water heater (yeah, I know, how sexy is that). He said it was no big deal; go to Lowes and just get one and have them install it, that it didn't really matter what kind. Darn, I was hoping he would have some big opinion on that.

Anyway, I'll be seeing him tomorrow. I will have his favorite cookies baked, the house will be spotless and beautiful, and I will be a smokin hottie in my size zero jeans.

However, my little voice started talking to me again as I was driving home from work, and I need you all to tell it to shut up. WH is not mean to me when we talk as we did today, he's just absolutely normal. Like just being polite; like I could be the checkout lady at the grocery store that you smile and chat with. Is it possible that he's so far gone that's all he feels for me? Anyone else experience this? Is it significant that he's not raging or hostile like some of the other posters here?

I need reassurance about that...and any additional great suggestions for tomorrow's first Plan A offensive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LS

FANTASTIC!!!



Like some other FAMILY EVENT that he can be INVITED to? Any special Xmas meal that you are cooking?????? Cookies??? Tree trimming??? ANYTHING?????



"Honey, this is a BIG DEAL. Could you go by Lowe's FOR ME? I think it would be best for you to do this, don't you think...since you are a MAN..I need the help of MY HUSBAND..to do these things..FOR ME"..Whatever..TRY TO GET HIM TO DO THIS...I REALLY THINK THAT IT IS HIS RESPONSIBILITY TO HANDLE SUCH THINGS....It's the least that he can do to HELP YOU.....

He does have a BIG OPINION..He wants you to RECOGNIZE this...YOU WILL BE SURPRISED by his RESPONSE..I BETCHA...



WONDERFUL!! WONDERFUL!! Look into his eyes as you speak to him....get close enough to TOUCH HIM....



I want you to try to develop confidence in yourself. BELIEVE IN YOUR POWER TO IMPLEMENT YOUR PLAN...This is YOUR PLAN..He has NO PLAN...He is a SCARED MAN WHO HAS BEEN CAPTURED BY AN ALIEN BEING....

This is the beginning of your road map home...My FWH even began a Hansel and Gretel analogy which he still talks about..You are laying out the bread crumbs..He is LOST..you are beginning to help him FIND HIS WAY BACK HOME....

The anger MAY come when he tries to get you to STOP YOUR PLAN..a PART of him will want YOUR PLAN to fail..so that he can have a justification to continue his DRUG SUPPLY...I think you are hearing CONFUSION..but YOU DEFINITELY HAVE SPARKED HIS INTEREST....

Mimi is a freaking GENIUS at Plan A! The stuff she thinks of is nothing short of genius! Am so glad you are here, Mimi. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi has some special talents. I love her Hansel and Gretel anology. Keep leaving that trail of bread crumps.

A lot of men don't even know it, but they do have a big need for domestic support. When WH left, I got real busy making the house perfect, and I organized, rearranged, changed things, had the yard and car perfect. Put fresh flowers, and even cuttings in glass vases around, was often cooking.

I adopted someone else's idea and hung a soft and feminine nightie on the bathroom door. I used to wear a cotton gown (can you say dumb, dumb, dumb).

He said absolutely nothing for several months, and then one day told me that it looked like I was moving along, and maybe he made a mistake.

If he likes sports, get some game tickets and go to the game, and leave around a few souvenirs.

We always say this is like planting a garden. You get the soil ready, plant the seeds, and water them, letting them get lots of sunshine. Then you wait. You don't go out the next morning and get disappointed because you don't have a full crop yet. It takes time, but is happening, even though you don't see it.

Mimi is a genius and Pep is a jenus

LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks so much for the kind words...

Like most of us here..trying to do my part to FIGHT THE WAR AGAINST INFIDELITY...

The fight is certainly one of my MISSIONS in LIFE...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

ME TOO! Great advice once again! Among other things, I'll go to town on the hot water heater tomorrow night...looks like DS has to be at the school about a half hour before the performance begins, so there will be plenty of time to happily chat WH up as we sit in the auditorium. "I've been thinking about that hot water heater and I'm really pretty nervous about making such a big decision on my own...I don't really know what capacity tank I should get or which energy star rating I should look for. You know those salesguys will give me the runaround cause I'm a woman, and I don't even know what questions to ask. I'd really appreciate it if you would go with me to choose one or go ahead and choose one that you think would be best." I'll also think of some funny stories about the kids, update him on what's going on with people at my work, etc.

Maybe even tell him about my intent to write (I'm just kidding about this, ladies) a "Girlfriends Guide to Going to Jail."
Hint #1: Dress in layers, it'll probably be ice cold or hot as he11.
Hint #2: Wear something with a hood so you don't have to put your head somewhere icky.
Hint #3: Come with a full stomach because you won't want to eat what they serve.
Hint #4: Make friends with the prostitutes; they can tell you what's happening and what to expect, because they've been here before.
Hint #5: If the prostitutes are going through DTs because they haven't had their fix, offer them your drink at mealtime. It makes both of you feel better, and you'd probably just throw it up anyway.
Hint #6: If you wear contacts, for goodness sake take them out and put on your glasses before they cart you off to the pokey.

Okay, maybe not such a good idea to share that with WH. I'll think of some other material and keep him entertained with my wit and humor. (OW's not real bright; she's more a stoopid dirty joke kinda girl.)

And mimi, my confidence is coming along, thanks in large part to you. THIS I can do--now that you've shown me how. It's just that stupid little voice that pops up and makes me question myself, my abilities, my WH's underlying goodness. That little voice has been plaguing me my whole life, and became a screaming nightmare on D-day, telling me I was worthless and a failure. I think the voice's name is Doubt. But after what I've been through--and am going through--it's harder to believe what Doubt is telling me. How could I be worthless and a failure if all these people still love me? when my boys adore me? when people I didn't even really know before have come to my aid? when I can still manage to shower, bake cookies, make eggs and sausage for breakfast, check the homework, pack lunches, dress for work and still be out the door at 8:00?

Doubt's a no-good (expletive deleted). Next time she starts bad-mouthing me I'm telling her to get lost. I've got a PLAN, so get outta my way! I've got some bread crumbs to drop...

BTW, believer...I'm going to begin working on removing wallpaper, etc. from the former nursery and turn that into a sitting room over Christmas break. That will be the last room in the house that needs to be re-done. What an accomplishment to get that done! and I'm doing it for me.

Thanks, all. Wish me luck for tomorrow. I'll keep you posted...
LilSis

PERFECT!!!

ARE YOU A COMIC??...LOL..You are hilarious.....




And I just met you on THIS FORUM..as unfortunate as that may be..and I THINK YOU ARE ADORABLE!!!

"Maybe even tell him about my intent to write (I'm just kidding about this, ladies) a "Girlfriends Guide to Going to Jail."
Hint #1: Dress in layers, it'll probably be ice cold or hot as he11.
Hint #2: Wear something with a hood so you don't have to put your head somewhere icky.
Hint #3: Come with a full stomach because you won't want to eat what they serve.
Hint #4: Make friends with the prostitutes; they can tell you what's happening and what to expect, because they've been here before.
Hint #5: If the prostitutes are going through DTs because they haven't had their fix, offer them your drink at mealtime. It makes both of you feel better, and you'd probably just throw it up anyway.
Hint #6: If you wear contacts, for goodness sake take them out and put on your glasses before they cart you off to the pokey."

Bwahaahaaa!!!!!!! I'll remember your tips, just in case. So far, I've not had the, shall we say opportunity, of going to the slammer.

Awww...shucks.

The least I can do is give you all a chuckle after all you've done for me.

Okay, you are doing just fine. Let's agree that the OW is the drug dealer. Your husband is presently addicted. Why not plan to give him the "drug" at home?

It won't be easy at first, because he is in her claws. But my money is on you.

Something that jumped out at me from your first post on this thread, her I HAVE THE POWER.

Y'know, guys generally don't like thinking they don't have the power and if presented with a statement like that will do whatever they can to disprove it.

She already has shown her true colors and I suspect that somewhere inside your H that statement chilled his blood. It may not show up for awhile, but if she keeps at that sort of thing, it will not be appealing or sexy to him, and he will rebell. That is not to say it will be a good thing for your marriage, but it won't be good for them.

Anyway, I've been thinking about that for 2 days and figured I may as well share it with you.

Thanks, Lor. When I asked him about that shortly after D-day he said it was a joke. (methinks the joke was on him)

I love your sig line. That is from one of my favorite passages.

Nervous about tonight. If it seems comfortable enough, would saying something slightly suggestive (just in passing) be too over the top? He always loved that before...

Quick replies needed...t-minus four hours and counting.

NOT OVER THE TOP...ABSOLUTELY DO WHAT HE ALWAYS LOVED BEFORE....

What is lots of fun is saying ordinary things that your spouse knows are naughty, but go right over the heads of the kids.

"Sure, Baby, I'll roll your burrito."

"Oh dear, this just squirted all over me..."

"Oooh, this is almost better than se....same cake."

Or anything with the words "juicy", "hot", "spicy", "melting", "dripping", etc. etc. etc.

You will drive him nuts! Except that he's already nuts, but you will drive him nutser, and he will be thinking of you for a while instead of thinking of her. Then he will catch himself thinking of you once in a while when he's with her, and startle guiltily.

You want to turn him into a double-cheat, at least in his own mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

EXACTLY....

He will LOVE having two women "lusting" after him..and then POUF you will disappear into DARKNESS and he will MISS you...

Get it?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I get it, but tonight's my first test. I'm very apprehensive that I'll chicken out and not milk this for all it's worth, or I will get freaked out by his babble and lose my confidence.

So my mantra is this:
I have the power. He's my husband. This is my right. He belongs here. I have a plan. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Don't freak out. (repeat)

Just took his favorite cookies out of the oven. Gonna go fix my nails and shave my legs now. Not that he'll know, but I will.

Deep breath. I can do this.

EXACTLY!!! This is the PERFECT MANTRA!!!

BTW:

Make it so that he has to walk all around the house..especially into your bedroom...

IF YOU CAN..

If not, don't worry about it...

Make sure that he knows that he's WELCOME to come over at anytime since it is HIS HOME....where HIS FAMILY lives....

Any of his belongings still there?

I was thinking about that...he hasn't seen the attic since it was finished. Last he saw, the floor wasn't in. I've begun the decorating and bought the boys and I a big screen TV (that was always our big plan for the attic...another family room...and it's very cool, exposed brick and all). I was just up there vacuuming and picking up the kid's junk, so it's looking spiffy...just in case. I'm going to ask if he'd like to see it. That means he has to walk all the way through the house. I also just finished putting out the outdoor decorations. Whew!

I'll just stash the unfolded laundry in the closet....

Thanks, mimi! You are my guardian angel. Keep your fingers crossed...

I'm LOVING reading this .... you're going to be SMOKIN' tonight ... and will have him on his knees!

One little bit of caution .... you probably won't SEE that happen. You won't have the immediate satisfaction of seeing the effect you're having on him. Don't lose faith, though .... keep it up, even if there is no reaction -- or what seems like a negative reaction.

You've got a great plan ... stick with it!

And let us know how tonight goes!

-AmI.

She is a quick study! Don't forget the nice smelling perfume, nice makeup and hottie clothes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In answer to your question, yes, the OW that helped destroy my 25 year marriage was also very manipulative.

My daughters could always tell whether their daddy and the OW had broken up or were back together again. (They broke up and made up sometimes several times per week - very junior-high-ish was there supposedly REAL soul-mate relationship LOL)

When WH and OW were together OW only allowed him to see his daughters a couple of hours per week AND he had to check in with her by cellphone with her and tell her exactly which daughters were with him and where they were going. But when he was with the OW and OW's daughter our daughters were instructed they had to leave him a message on his phone (because she insisted his cell phone be off when he was with her). BTW, my daughters refused to leave messages for him and eventually demanded that he not have phone communication with OW during their visitation with the dad! Our youngest daughter once told me that she felt like her daddy was pretending she was dead when he was with OW and her little girl.

When WH and OW were broke up he wanted to hang around my home every day. He wanted to be there for dinner, watch movies with kids at my home, and even for me to come along on visitation with him and our daughters.

My WH also did the sobbing routine too... BUT evidently wasn't crying because he cared about how he was hurting us because he never stopped hurting us.

I heard once that REAL guilt prompts the guilty to stop whatever they're doing that makes them feel ashamed.
That makes sense to me. My WH would try to convince us that he still 'loved' us... but it didn't matter to us if he didn't love us enough to stop hurting us, if he didn't love us more than he 'loved' the OW, more than he wanted to destroy our marriage and family. Whatever it is he felt, and called 'love' for us, really didn't matter if it didn't prompt him to protect us from adultery and divorce.

I'm pretty sure his being so distraught was more about his cake-eating hopes being thwarted by his victims' non-cooperation. I think he was just feeling sorry for himself (still is). Many times he revealed to us that he thought we were being cruel to him if we couldn't just be happy for him and OW AND allow him to still be as much a part of our family as before! He even told me it was my job to tell our daughters that THEIR feelings were wrong - that they had no right to be upset.

In the long run it was the manipulations of the OW that brought an end to their adultery. I saw some evidence that the micro-short leash she tried to keep him on embarrassed and angered him. In any case they fought a lot (WAY more than we had during our marriage or even divorce) and eventually really did break up for good.

Yep, Mere, same scenario in my situation...

H "sneaking" to our sons' football games and "rushing" back to her after the game was over...YUCK...

And also the BREAKUP to MAKEUP...YUCK...

INCOMPREHENSIBLE !!!

you are getting wonderful advice here from the right people... just remember with all this flirting and suggestive banter to not let it go beyond that until such a time as your WH is tested for all STD's.
Good luck and you are doing very well.

Okay, friends, I'm back. I didn't blow it. I did what I needed to to, was charming and fun and chatted about friends and family. I looked great, smelled great, and had a great attitude. WH didn't seem to be angry or resentful, just normal. What's up with that? I swear he treats me like I'm his sister or something.

Here's the run down (if you don't care for all the details you can skip to later):

He dropped off the DSs about a half hour before we needed to leave so that DS11 could change into appropriate Christmas program attire. At first WH told me (through the kitchen window...he wouldn't even come in) that he would just meet us there and for me to save him a seat. I objected, telling him that I had promised DS11 that we would go together. WH relented and said he'd come back when it was time to leave, so he left for something like 15 minutes (what was the point again??). When he came back, he actually entered the house. DS11 asked if he would come see the attic. I went up, too, of course. He said it was "cozy" and I asked him to sit down and check out the new TV. I hope he was feeling like he was missing out on something...we had planned to re-do that attic for years, but it was one of those things that got done bit by bit as we had the money. Finishing it would have been a big deal for us together...we always talked about a trip to Ikea to outfit it. It ended up being a big deal to me alone.

Before we walked out the door, I grabbed the container of his favorite cookies. So off we all went to the Christmas program...this is the first time we have all sat in a vehicle together since July 9. The boys and I carried on an animated conversation in the car. I sat next to WH in the auditorium, and while we waited (we were about a half hour early so DS11 could warm up) we chatted (and a couple of times whispered!) about Christmas presents and I told a couple of funny stories about the kids. He had brought along a boating magazine and I kind of looked over his shoulder at the pictures and we commented on various boats, etc., and I played a game with DS8. (WH barely acknowledged DS8, and I think even DS8 picked up on that). WH and I were, however, very friendly and cordial...no fireworks either way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

One of the songs performed was Ode to Joy, which coincidentally was the recessional at our wedding. I gave WH a nudge and and gave him a "remember this?" look, and he smiled...but not really, more a grimace, like, "oh, yeah." I kept leaning in close to get a better view of the stage. About halfway through the concert, right in the middle of a song, I leaned over and said, "I'm not wearing any panties." He said, "What, I didn't hear you?" so I whispered it again, and he got this big laughing smile and squished his eyes closed. So I ended up feeling like he kind of just laughed at me.

No matter...stick to the plan, LilSis. When the concert was over and time to leave, I dropped my program and had to bend down to pick it up as we filed out of the row. It's chilly doing that when wearing low cut jeans, I tell you, but I was hoping a glimpse of skin (my BACK, people!!) would impress WH, who was right behind me. It was very crowded and I managed to bump into WH a few times as we bunched up with all the other parents waiting for our accomplished musicians. Once DS11 found us and we appropriately showered him with adoring praise for his prowess on the clarinet, DS11 asked if WH would go out for hot chocolate with us. WH declined, claiming he was very tired and had a long day of training tomorrow (it was 8:30). DS11 begged a little longer, and I let that go on for a bit, then felt badly enough to jump in and tell DS11 that I'd make us some hot chocolate at home, which seemed to satisfy him.

When we pulled up in the driveway, we all piled out, and WH made a show of hugging each boy. Before he could hop back in, I went toward him--enough so he could see the hug coming--and he reached out and put his arm around me. I planted a kiss on his neck (I'm 5'1" and he's 6'3" so that's about where I could reach, especially while he's turning away trying to escape it). And I said, "Careful love you bye," which was our nightly ritual goodbye when he worked nights. He said thanks, and before I went in the house, I told him that it meant a lot to the boys that we went together and thanked him for that, then said bye with a big smile and wave. (I could have done better here for sure)

I can Monday morning quarterback this until the cows come home, but it won't change anything and I'm not going to waste anymore emotional energy on it right now. I did what I needed to do, and I got a clean house in the process. My boys were delighted that we did that together and they got to see their mom and dad getting along instead of fighting. I still feel so bad for DS8...WH really kind of ignores him. DS8 is in a group for "families in change" (how's that for a euphemism) at school, and the other day he had to draw a picture for each parent and put each one in an envelope. My envelope said, "To Mom from DS8." WH's said, "To Dad from DS8, you'r son." (punctuation his) There was a little star over the word son.

So I'm worrying about DS8, but also trying to interpret WH's actions and behavior tonight. Again, I feel like he's just Mr. Friendly...that there's no real emotion there. Is it possible that he's just completely committed to this new path in life, no question about it, and that I'm just some desperate STBX?

I know AmIok warned me about not expecting anything, and I told myself that all day. I didn't expect him to come panting after me (not that I would have been disappointed with that, and I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say a teeny part of me hoped). But somehow, the fact that there is no emotional extreme from him leads me to assume that he's perfectly comfortable with his decision to leave us; leave me. That it is a decision he has made, no longer struggles with, and is content with.

I know what mimi says about assumptions, but sometimes they are right, aren't they? I'd feel less "down" if he acted pissy or angry...then I'd know I actually affected him. I feel like I don't affect him at all.

Any thoughts, comments, feedback? And thanks, everyone, for your support today getting me in the right frame of mind. Time will tell...but I do think I could do it again. It wasn't as hard as I thought it would be, and now that I've done it once, I can only improve. The difficulty will be having the opportunity to do so...

LilSis

Ah, the garden is tilled, the seeds are planted...........

Good Job!!!! Men are a bit slow, but he will be thinking about things - his family, your new attic room, no panties.

You outdid yourself. Christmas is a time when people want to go "home".

Thanks, believer. The affirmation really helps.

I think he also HAS to be thinking of his boys, and how he has to say good-bye to them all the time, and is so out of touch with their lives. I think that was very apparent tonight...I'm involved at school and know what day DS8 has music/gym/library, how many hours of practice DS11 has credit for, when their respective Christmas parties are and what they will be eating at their parties (because I'm sending cookies to both), when the book report is due, who their friends are/where they live/what their parents are like.

That was actually one of the knife in the heart moments tonight...on WH's other side was a little girl about 4-y-o. She was swaying to the music and enjoying herself, and I saw WH smile at her. I immediately thought that with OW, he'll have a daughter--the little girl we never had. Then I looked on my other side at DS8 (same age as OW's daughter), and my heart just about cracked.

Ugh. Adultery is so wicked and cruel.

Hang in there. You are doing just fine. My WH didn't show any remorse for quite awhile. But he was noticing things.

You did the perfect combination - home and family, a bit of naughtiness, rememberances of the past, accomplished dreams. The OW doesn't stand a chance.

I hope you will talk to your sons, and tell them that while there are some problems right now, mom has a plan.

Now that Christmas is here, you might tell them that the thing you want most in the world is a handmade Christmas card from them. I raised my boys alone for the first 10 years, and that is what I always requested. The funny thing is, they continued making me a Christmas card up to this day, and they are 21 and 25. I have kept each and every card.

GREAT job!!

He can't react in front of you .... can't let you know you are getting to him. Mine now tells me how often he thought that he wanted to touch or say or do something, but couldn't even admit that to himself because that would kill the excuses he'd made for himself about why his A was ok.

But you can guarnatee that all night long he'll be thinking about you not wearing any panties.

"Why in the he11 would she say something like that to me????"
"Was that an invitation .....?"
"Wonder if it was true ... I didn't see any when she bent over that one time...."

No way OW can compete when she's complaining about the time he DIDN'T spend with her tonight ... and all he can think about is your panties....

Great job, girl.


Was your WH always distant with your DS8?

-AmI.

I woke up at 4:40 in the morning and Fear and Doubt came to pay a visit there in the dark, but I successfully told them to get lost. I decided to come down and post for a little boost. (Cup of coffee doesn't hurt, either)

Thanks, AmI. I need to remember it is a marathon. I was reading Neak's thread about the seemingly ridiculous things she would do/say and her WH would just blow her off. Once I get better at this and do it a few times, I suppose it will get easier...??? My armour will get stronger?? I suppose this is where it plays to my advantage that he doesn't live here. I can do a full frontal (hmmmm...) assault, then retreat to lick my wounds and refortify for the next battle against the evil forces of A.

Do you girls totally mind walking me through this, one day at a time? I could really use your invaluable advice, help and support. You are all so wise, and I'm new enough to this that I second guess myself.

So today's question would be, what now? I thought about calling his cell later and leaving a VM, something like:
"Hi, it's me. I just wanted to call and thank you again for the nice evening. It was really nice it was to be together as a family...like the way it should be. It really meant so much to the kids...and to me, too. And just so you know, I wasn't kidding about what I whispered to you during the concert. Careful-love you-bye." Click.

(FYI the careful-love you-bye was our ritual good bye)

My first thought was to just be dark today...but because of the compressed timeline of my Plan A, I don't know if I should be a tad more aggressive. A "thank you" call seems appropriate, doncha think? I could be dark tomorrow...

Feedback, please! And thanks...AGAIN.

(((((hugs all around)))

LS

I love the idea, especially cuz it was a good night together, and I especially love the 'ritual goodbye'. These are the things that will call his heart back home when the glamour of the affair begins to fade and the evil beast begins to show true colors.

I'm no expert at Plan A, I did mine on instinct, not knowing about MB at the time, in fact I began my Plan A before I even knew about the affair, I just knew his heart was lost to me and I needed it back; but it worked like the charm it is.
Hugs!

AmI:
Sorry, forgot to respond to your last question about DS8. WH has never been quite as close to DS8 as he was to DS11. I suspect he began to fall into a depression when DS8 was about 2. I believe this depression precipitated all of this...mimi you are absolutely right on in your other thread!! That was about the time my dad died, and I was very preoccupied and needy, and not meeting his ENs. At the same time, he was becoming VERY disallusioned with his job. A perfect storm.

With DS11, WH was a very hands-on parent from the very first, because I was working and we juggled child care to avoid having to put him in daycare. With DS8, I quit my job and stayed home for a year. When I went back part-time, we did put them in day care.

Then keep in mind, too, that for the past almost three years now, WH has been in the A, emotionally disconnecting from the family. So that would be since DS8 was 5. Since d-day, WH has seemed much more attentive to DS11...maybe because he knows that DS11 knows the truth about his A?

Yuck. It's all so ugly. How can a dad watch his kids suffer, and not do anything to stop it? It's incomprehensible to me.

LS

"Yuck. It's all so ugly. How can a dad watch his kids suffer, and not do anything to stop it? It's incomprehensible to me."

Ever know a drug addict? These WS's act exactly like crackheads. Try not to dwell on it. It's this kind of thing that can make the BS fall out of love with the WS - I think it is more damaging the the marriage than the actual affair.

Sis:

I think your night was just about PERFECT...

Keep in mind that what you are doing is CREATING UNFORGETTABLE MEMORIES of YOU..so when he is in the DARKNESS of PLAN B..he will think of YOU...

You are profitting from what I learned..what we other BSes learned..We did not have a clue that this was occurring during Plan A because our WSes gave the impression that they were not affected by us..mine did..but later, as others have said, he reported how PLAN A was having its effect...



THIS WAS A MAJOR VICTORY FOR YOU!!! There was no way that he planned to come into the house. This was at your insistence and he relented. He had to leave to try to explain this to the OW...I bet she LBed big time when he got back.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Work is calling..BACK LATER...

He couldn't help but picture this in his mind...

He LOVED that you told him this...

Don't deny the significance of his LAUGHING SMILE....

You BRITTANY SPEARS WANNABE, YOU.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



I LOVED the GOODBYE RITUAL..I LOVED THAT YOU KISSED HIM..Today though I suggest that you fix this up a bit and stress how it was important to YOU..at this point, the key is to make claims on him as your HUSBAND..not as the FATHER OF YOUR CHILDREN..he will remain the FATHER OF YOUR CHILDREN whether you are married to him or not...an important distinction in this BATTLE....i know, YUCK....



NO WAY..Stop it..The path is BACK HOME..not to THIS NEW PATH IN LIFE...YUCK!!!



Remember that he is a WS..hooked on OW CRACK..he is not capable of being this LOGICAL AND RATIONAL...He is living from minute to minute, trying to get his next FIX...unfortunately, he is only getting his EMOTIONAL HIGH from her right now..so you see APATHY..that's better than the ANGER AND RESENTMENT that a lot of us got in response to PLAN A....



NOPE.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Did you know that you were speaking from Ephesians? As you can tell, reading my Bible got me through this...



You asked about this phone call:




I say...Yes, call him today..a Thank-You is certainly warranted..he was not at all planning to come into the house..and RT probably LBed about this...leave out the part about the family and kids..and even the part of about the underwear..tell him how much it meant to YOU..how GOOD he looked..key is ADMIRATION of HIM by YOU..."Looking forward to seeing you again soon..and finally, the CAREFUL, ILY...

NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO BE DARK..

Now is the FULL FRONTAL ATTACK..WITH ARMOR...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

be certain to talk to the boys' teachers as well as the school principal (when school resumes) ... be certain to say IN WRITING something like:

"We are having a family crisis. Their father is living elsewhere instead of home with the family. I am asking you to keep an eye open for any problems with my sons. They are missing their Dad and feel another child is getting the love and attention that is rightfully theirs. Call me at (your cell #) anytime you think there is something going on. You can reach their father at #."

don't mention "adultery" or "affair" ... just say FAMILY CRISIS

[color:"red"] YOU are doing an excellent Plan A+ ... do not think otherwise.... we've seen some very chitty plan A s recently ... and yours RAWKS !!!! [/color]

one of the Plan A tools is to quiet your "taker" ... and this is HARD and it builds tension and eventual resentment (a marriage recovery killer)

soooooooooooo

as you quiet your "taker" ... you need to treat yourself and pamper yourself

here is a Plan A move that also pampers YOU ....

call your WH
ask him to come over to "babysit the boys" ... you have some last minute HOLIDAY errands to do and you cannot take them ... get him to say "yes"

then, when WH shows up ... you go out looking SMASHING ... more like you are going on a date than shopping ...

you smile
bat your lashes
ooze gratitude and admiration
and stay in the house with WH only a few minutes befor you must dash out ... and be evasive where you are going

if he comments on how you are overdressed for a shopping trip ... giggle and place your fingertip against your nose and say ... "Silly me."

then slip away for 2 hours & go see a movie or meet a friend for coffee & dessert ... it does not matter

with your cell phone turned off

and before you leave... place a store bought bunch of roses in a vase NEXT to your BED ... he will likely spy in your room

Your Plan A is creating great emotional conflict in your husband ... NOT in the WH, but in your H. (big difference)

H is feeling that he has hurt the most wonderful wife of his ... WH only wants to snort Mrs Ratturd .... but the soul of H is hurting over hurting YOU .... and causing you to get tossed in the pokey for a nite !!!! Here YOU are, still being NICE to him AFTER he caused THAT!!! He's confused and conflicted as hayul.

GOOD JOB!!!!!!

Have you bought your H a Christmas present? ... just wondering.....

and next time you see WH ... slip some of your panties in his coat pocket without him knowing ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pep

panties in his pocket
he will NOT be 100% sure who put them there

and
he might even thank Mrs Ratturd for doing it ...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

and she will be soooooooo pizza'd off that she does NOT have "the power" she thinks she has

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

oh... and be 100% CERTAIN NO ONE can get to your 'puter and read your MB plan .... this is a MUST!

Pep

Don't you just LOVE IT when we work together as a TEAM???

I was wondering how she was going to get him to come over??

I am SOOO GRINNING and LOL at Pep's suggestions which of course you should do with Is dotted and Ts crossed....

Yep, SIS BRITTANY gets A++++

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BTW, Thanks, Pep...

I think I'm gonna do "PANTIES IN THE POCKET" and he better know who put them there...

You learn something new everyday around this place...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

ANDDDDD...

If you leave a message for him, thanking him for a wonderful evening,, be SURE to ask if he liked the remodeling job on the attic. Tell him you tried to finish it exactly as "WE planned" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and ask if he had any other suggestions.

I'll bet you the OW is "snooping" to find out any info on your relationship she can and he probably promised her he wouldn't enter the house. That will let her know he did come in. The message will also let him know the attic was finished with HIM in mind and you value his input. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mimi

this was so funny

H pulled out my panties while in line to buy movie popcorn ... thinking it was a hankerchief !!! and he almost blew his nose on them .... others in the line were snickering as my H held panties up to his NOSE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I LOVE YOUR IDEA, Nerly..so forgive me if this sounds like I'm being picky.

I think you shouldn't ASK but TELL him that you loved it that he got a chance to see the attic..and then on to that you designed it as "WE PLANNED"....

Just wanted to add that I love the Plan A tactics that have the effect of increasing (revealing?) the OW's jealous controlling streak.

My WH tried to pretend that OW was 'better' than me in that she didn't expect any committment from him... LOL Just because she had slept with him for about a year minus any serious discussion once he divorced me, he assumed she didn't expect him to ever marry her... "She's not like you" he said (um her willingness to have sex with a man minus marriage - a man who was MARRIED to another at that - supposedly made ME inferior to HER!!! He saw ME as controlling simply because I wanted my husband to be faithful - as I was. And she was 'better' than me because she didn't have that hang-up?

Anyway, when I did Plan A I gave her plenty to react to in a most unbecoming, controlling way. I started Plan A just 6 weeks before the divorce was final. When the day came to sign the divorce papers WH agreed to one-year legal separation agreement instead! OW flipped out LOL

You bet he got to see that she did have some expectations and jealousy after all!

I am a big fan of messages that the OW gets to see.

During sleazy hotel week, I left naughty handwritten notes in his room, and several of them she got to first.

Bet if she has any suspicions about last night, she will be checking his TM's, and anything else she can get her hands on.

It is beautiful if you can create enough conflict and confusion that he can't keep straight which of you did what, when he is supposed to be with whom, who said what, what all his rules from OW are, whether he was supposed to be lunching with you or her......

Still lololol about the panties in the pocket.

OMG, Pep!!!



I just sprayed coffee all over my keyboard!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"It is beautiful if you can create enough conflict and confusion that he can't keep straight which of you did what, when he is supposed to be with whom, who said what, what all his rules from OW are, whether he was supposed to be lunching with you or her......"

LOL Neak - During Plan A, even I got confused. One day WH and I were sitting on the porch talking (the marital home porch that is), and OW came over to check on WH. I told him, "Oh-oh, you better go home (to the love shack), before you get in trouble".

*snicker* It probably gave him a jolt to hear you call his amoral 'love' nest "home". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay...so much to respond to, but here's what I said (can you believe I needed to write myself a script??) My hands are still shaking because I was so nervous.

"Hi, it's me. I just wanted to thank you again for the nice evening. I was thinking how glad I was that you got to see the attic, FINALLY all finished just the way we planned. But mostly, I just enjoyed spending time with you. You looked great, smelled nice, and I look forward to seeing you again. And just so you know, I wasn't kidding about what I whispered to you during the concert. Careful-love you-bye." Click.

It just felt right to include the thing about the panties even thought you advised against it, mimi...I think one of OW's appeals is that she's sort of fun and flirty. I was always just the nagging wife (not really, but I'm sure that fuels his rationalizations).

Reviews?? (I hope I sounded okay on the phone. I said it with a smile (which I think you can hear in someone's voice), but I was nervous so my voice might have been a little high.

Next installment to come.

I've got another Plan A idea...

just an outline here .... YOU fill in the details to suit your situation

I think you might go Plan A the POLICE STATION where you were arrested!

yes, that's right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

you waltz in looking like a million bucks

you ask to speak to the person in charge (I don't know who this might be, but I am sure you will)

you are bringing a basket of goodies for the officers to enjoy at the station
... muffins, fruit, candies, cookies, etc

AND you handwrite a lovely note on a Christmas card

something like:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I wanted to offer my humble apologies for my being brought into the station (give date).

After much reflection and prayer, I realize that everyone deserves a second chance when they resolve to never repeat a terrible mistake ever again.

I acknowledge that my loss of control and my passionate outburst of anger and outrage may have put (husband's name) co-workers in an awkward position.

Please forgive me for that. I assure you, that will never be repeated.

Please enjoy these Holiday Treats with my best wishes.

I have "inside information" what it feels like being locked up, (try & crack a joke) so if it is permitted, I am including a separate basket of women's toiletry needs. Please offer these things to any woman in need of them.(tooth brushes, tooth paste, sanitary napkin/tampon, deoderant etc)

I thank you all for your great kindness.

Sincerely,

~MRS FIRST & LAST NAME"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you are trying to build alliances where Mrs Ratturd cannot.... if you are on a friendly basis with any other police-wives ... reach out to them as well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

remember to put emphasis on

EVERYONE DESERVES A SECOND CHANCE <~~~ speaking right to your husband (but indirectly)

Pep

Sis, ABSOLUTELY, modify our ideas to what YOU FEEL IS RIGHT...

Pep, I've been having one of those bad days at work and you are keeping me LAUGHING even though a large part of me does not feel like it....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

good job hunny!

Pep

Okay, I’ll try to respond to everything. Isn’t it a pain how having a job interferes with one’s personal life? I can’t believe the amount of traffic today, so I’m going to just go through them all with one big response.

First, thanks but no thanks on the Brittney Spears comparison! Know anyone less skanky who doesn’t wear undies? (as I write that I see how mutually exclusive that is…but it doesn’t count when you just share it with your hubby, cheater or not, right?)

Okay…add to my mantra: WH is a crackhead. He is not my H. He is treating me this way to get his fix. I can’t let it get me down that he shows no reaction. You all told me he wouldn’t.

I have been reading my Bible, too, since all this started. Maybe I picked up on the armor reference subconsciously? I also love the one about living in the light, in Philippians, actually all of verse four, but especially: “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.”

RE DS8: I have spoken to and emailed both teachers and the school counselors at their schools. I told the counselors the whole truth, but the teachers just know that WH filed for divorce, and it was not what I wanted. I asked each one to let me know if it appeared any issues were coming up. Both boys are in divorce groups at school run by the counselors.

Pep, your Plan A assault of having him come babysit the boys would be perfect if…he would actually come here. I know from experience that he would just take them to his parent’s house where he is living, less than a mile away, or tell me that I needed to drop them off. Maybe if I just have a quick trip to wrap up the shopping, etc., he could come by and hook up the xbox for the boys (I know, a monkey could do it…yellow to yellow, red to red, white to white) or play an xbox game with them? You are right: WH hanging out here at the house—his home--would have as much impact as seeing me going out. I totally get where you are going with this…I just don’t know how to pull it off.

Actually, the most critical question truly is how to manipulate things so that WH and I have contact for ANYTHING more than just the pick-up drop-off? That’s essentially no contact as it is. We need TIME AND OPPORTUNITY to interact!! And I’m afraid he will avoid it at all costs, just to avoid facing anything that eats away at his carefully crafted rationalizations and justifications that allow him to get his fix. Last night, for example, before he agreed to go together to the concert, one of his objections was that it would give the kids the wrong idea (like his adulterous relationship with one of their friend’s mom was the RIGHT idea???). Gross.

Okay, I will rack my brain to think of some possible way to get him here or have significant contact of ANY KIND. Need more ideas, people…this fish is gonna be a tough one to reel in.

I did get him a present…a coffee table book with these wonderful photographs of Michigan lighthouses (okay, the weirdness about me and lighthouses lately is another post entirely). In another thread, I proposed an inscription (which I will now post here for your consideration):
"Seeing these lighthouses brings back many memories of wonderful trips we have taken, beautiful sights we’ve seen, and happy times together. I hope that we have a chance to see the ones in this book that we haven’t visited yet. In the meantime, I hope I can be a lighthouse for you. Love, me" Another poster recommended an alternative, “saw this book and thought of you, enjoy!” Where do you come down on this one?

I’m ALL OVER the pocket panties idea…LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT…if only I can get within 10 feet of him. (that pesky no contact thing again) That would SO surprise and intrigue him. Even if he does come to the house, though, I bet he just keeps his coat on so he can flee at the soonest possible moment.

No prob on the ‘puter; thanks for checking. I set it up so you need password to log on, and I’ve been very careful about logging out every time, just in case he comes over when I’m at work. In terms of stirring the pot, I don’t know how or if OW will have access to any messages I leave on his cell. Other than time spent here or with the boys—and thus not with her—I don’t know how I can get it right in her face. (‘specially since I still have to figure out how to get myself under WH’s nose first). I would LOVE to get to the point of causing him confusion…but again, this requires more than just very minimal contact, which is all we have!! See my dilemma? All of these ideas are fantastic, but I need to get TO him.

The police station idea won’t work exactly as presented…the jail is actually run by the county sheriff, so it was a whole different set of folks who “hosted” me, even though it was WH’s coworkers who “escorted” me there. However, I really like the idea of sending a cards and some cookies to the handful of guys who were so nice to me….and not just those at the dept.; the guys WH plays cards with have also been very kind.

Mimi, I’m so sorry you are having a bad day! Anything I can do, except tell you how wonderful you’ve been to me, and what a difference you’ve made to me? (((mimi)))

Whew. There’s the long story. WH is working tomorrow, then he’s off for Fri., Sat., Sun. so we’ve got a day to come up with a battle plan. You with me, MBers?

LilSis

not skanky ---> Neak <--- sometimes does not wear panties

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

1. Keep reading the Bible. Also, you will enjoy Hosea.
2. Repeat that mantra several more times. You can't see it from your viewpoint, but your WH is already oodles more attatched to you than many I have seen on here, and you're just starting.
3. Regarding the holiday excursion, it doesn't matter if he drops the boys off at his parents'. In fact, you could suggest that to him, since you 'might not be back right away'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It is most important that he see you leaving, looking great. Bet once he saw you, he would wait in spite of himself, just to see when you got back.
4. Brainstorming about C opportunities: this deserves more than just a bullet point, but start thinking of things you can invite him for, even if it's only little. "The boys and I are watching (insert name of movie he would like too), and it would be really great if you would come over and have popcorn and (insert name of his favorite food that you know she can't make nearly as well as you) with us." Perky and happy, sweetness and light. Don't be discouraged if he doesn't come, or even if he rebuffs you rudely. You trying to include him will get under his armor despite his best efforts.
5. Personally, I like the longer inscription better for the book. Just a thought, I would take out the last sentence about you being the lighthouse, and save it for your Plan B letter, at which time you could refer back to the lighthouses. In that letter you could also be much more blatant, i.e. directly saying that you want to light his way home to his family, where he belongs.
6. Keep your panties handy, maybe even in your own pocket. You never know when you will have an opportunity to place them. You are probably right, and you won't have a chance the first few times he comes over, but with time he will relax. And don't worry if he somehow finds them in your pocket, or they fall out in front of him. He will spend DAYS trying to figure out why you had your undies in your pocket, lololololol!!!
7. The message thing is easy enough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Dollars to donuts she checks his phone every chance she gets, so TM's are still a good thing to keep going, just in case. Are they living together right now? Send him a Christmas card. Leave cards and notes on his car. Just one time of the two of them walking to his car together, her seeing a note under his windshield wiper, which he hastily and guiltily slips into his pocket and when she screeches at him demanding to know what it says (because she has the power) he hems and haws and tries to say it is just his psycho wife or a pizza ad, she is liable to become completely unhinged and snoop through EVERYTHING!!! If she has not found the TM's by then, she will.
8. Are you in a small town? Why not make cookies for as many of the law enforcement personnel as you can, PD and SO both? One basket for each office, and one for your WH's friends? Love this idea!
9. He's off Friday? What can you try and get him to do with you and the kids?

That ought to keep you busy for a few minutes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> For whatever reason, your WH is really reminding me of mine. I would not be surprised if your Plan B, when it comes, is fairly short. Just in case, you probably will want to devote any spare time (<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) to learning about recovery, and laying out your boundaries for taking him back. It could take a while, and don't give up if it does, but your stellar work is having enough of an impact I think you should prepare for anything.

Wow..this is also one of my favorite passages. I also recommend Psalms..thou preparest a table before me in the presence of my enemies.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />..Thanks, Neak. I will have to check out Hosea. I haven't read it.



Don't doubt yourself. He was not planning on coming into the house at all last night. that was a major feat!!



My vote is for asking him to do this..

A part of him wants you to provide him with an EXCUSE...

Later....

OMG Pep, you are a genious!!! How Brilliant!

Sis, get those panties in his pocket! Make sure they're hot hot hot ones too.

Okay, Neak! You can be my panty-less role model! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

1. I will read.

2. I will repeat.

3. Hmmm....okay (wheels turning). Maybe drinks with my best friend tomorrow night? Neither of us work on Friday...WH could come home and put the boys to bed...they have school on Friday. But wait! I can't drink (ADs); but as long as I go somewhere smoky and reek like cigarettes when I get back, he doesn't have to know that I wasn't doing shots and dancing on the tables. How am I doing so far?

4. Perfect! We could do Polar Express or Elf. Is it icky to have the kids invite him? On a scale of icky-ness, it doesn't even rate compared to what WH and OW did to them by using them to facilitate their A, but I don't want to sink to their level. I'm sure if they did the inviting, he's accuse me of using them, but if I ask, it'll be a straight up NO.

5. Great...that's exactly what I'll do! Sounds like me, strikes a chord, and makes a point, but not over the top...and I can still play the card later in the PBL.

6. Operation Pocket Panty will be launched as soon as conditions become optimal for success.

7. They don't live together. Her D isn't final for another month or so and he isn't supposed to be around her kids overnight until then (can you IMAGINE being an OW with 3 kids and suddenly the married dad of one of their friends is your mom's boyfriend, and your dad is gone? what kind of **woman**-let alone MOTHER--does THAT?) I digress. I also thought of the note under the windshield thingie today when I saw his truck parked at the dept. Maybe tomorrow I will send him a TM. We never did that before...we'd always just leave VMs...but he and OW used texts. (and photos...shortly after d-day I found a crotch shot of my WH on his cell that he forgot to delete...UGH) What grade are we in again?

8. No, there are 330 some officers in the PD alone. I think if I focus on the key people that I exposed to initially (WHs PD friends and card-playing group), in addition to a couple officers that were decent to me while I was at the "spa," I ought to cover my bases.

(My best friend and I use that as our code around the kids; the morning after I was let out of the slammer, WH dropped the boys off and said, "Did you get your hair cut?" If I hadn't been so completely and utterly demoralized and degraded at that moment, I would have Bah-ha-ha-ha'd right in his face, and said, "Yeah, they give a nice pedicure, too." Hello?? Luckily, after the shock had worn off, I remembered his comment and best friend and I Bah-ha-ha'd anyway.)

8. I'll give Friday some thought tonight. I need to be strategic so he can't worm his way out of it or just outright turn me down. Since our kids have school, best friend and I were going to spend the day (okay this sounds pathetic but we've been friends since 9th grade and were college roommates) watching movies on my new TV in the attic, eating pizza rolls, ice cream and popcorn (after going out for breakfast at Panera). I know that BF would sacrifice the chance to re-live our college days in the name of true love...after all, a couple months ago I went with her to a town an hour away to meet the XH of her FWH's OW so they could verify the A with a cell phone the XH had taken from OW's house. (Talk about intrigue. This sounds like your family, Neak. HEY! She could be LilSisSis to your Neaksis!! She would be SO honored.)

Anyway, LilSisSis was afraid XH might be a whack job and apparently thought I could provide some sense of security. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Truly, I'm so glad I could be there for her and drive us the hour back home while she sat in the passenger seat bawling, so I could say over and over, "I know exactly how you feel, honey. I wish I could take it away." She and her FWH are now in recovery and I am FWH's "sponsor." (He calls me when he needs to vent, or is triggered and needs to be reminded what a psycho witch the OW is and how wonderful LilSisSis is.) Interestingly, LilSisSis' FWH introduced me to WH. They've known each other since the police academy. FWH is helpful to me as well by describing the wayward point of view, similar to what you all describe. He was also helpful in carrying the big screen TV up two flights of stairs to the attic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Again, I digress. Once I come up with some possiblities for Friday, I'll post them for your advice and counsel.

Thanks, Neak!
LS

[/quote]

My vote is for asking him to do this..

A part of him wants you to provide him with an EXCUSE...

Later.... [/quote]

You think? Really? Okay, I'm game! but I still want a back-up plan....

Already got the panties picked out. The ones we bought together on Valentine's Day a few years ago (don't be grossed out, even thought they aren't new, they aren't comfortable enought to wear often...or for long... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Here's another thought on the panties (BTW, make sure they're thongs! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

You could also drop them into his car...maybe in the back seat or onto the floor space between the passenger seat and the passenger door..or even tucked in between the back and the seat of the passenger seat.

Ummm...maybe think of ways to get your perfume scent attached to him...or his car. For some reason, it makes sense to me to have a perfume-saturated cotton ball inside a zip-lock bag tucked into your pocket...just in case you get a chance to rub the cotton ball onto the passenger seat.

You could also surreptiously open the baggie and get some of the perfume onto your hand and maybe pat your WH on the shoulder...or rub his collar the next time you get a chance to hug him. If you're already wearing the perfume, he shouldn't notice.

If you get a chance to hug him, it would indeed be "unfortunate" if he should happen to have a lipstick smear on his shirt collar the next time he sees her.

Maybe you could clue your best friend in on the next time he comes over and have her call you on your cellphone so your H can overhear you say, "That's so sweet of you to ask me out, but I'm still married. Yes, I'm sure we would have a great time, but I am a married woman. I'm very flattered, and I thank you for the invitation, but I really can't go. 'Bye!" (One thought: Delete the phone number ASAP from your cellphone, so your WH won't catch on to who actually called you. Besides, it'll do him good to wonder who's asking his wife out! And, he probably knows ALL ABOUT deleting cellphone calls! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> )

*67 to just block the #

I like everything except the smelling like cigarettes. You should always smell wonderful.

Maybe wander aimlessly around the mall, and play with the men's cologne testers. Leave him wondering whether you were with someone, or perhaps shopping for a present for him.

Maybe one of your awesome gurus has an idea for inviting him, kids vs. you giving the invite, but I think if you were to ask him yourself, tell him how much it would mean to the kids and to you, say that you have no expectations but only want to spend some time with him, that he will be fairly likely to say yes. And if he doesn't come, he will resent the OW for her power that "makes" him do what he doesn't want to do, and keeps him from doing things that he really wants to do. Win-win, whether he says yes or no.

Panties with memories attatched are good! I don't care how old they are, I'm all good with it as long as they haven't been worn more than once since laundering. (If it were me, I would wear them for an hour or two, just enough to have a small whiff of you, but not too much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

LilSisSis.........ROFL!!!!!!!!!

Neakie, Neakie - you are something else.

Neakie <------ very naughty <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hopefully Neaksmom is busy bringing babies into the world, and won't have time to see THIS.

LOVE IT!! I could SO do this...much easier than trying to get them in a pocket. But we'll stick with the name Operation PP just for the fun of it, kay? And the perfume thing is a GREAT idea. He bought me that perfume as a gift when I came home from a trip for work. I know that I totally react to scent...I'm sure I'm not the only one who would smell WH shirts after d-day.

OW would react, too, wouldn't she....she'd recognize it for sure.

I hope so too, B!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Sis, who says you can't have your cake and eat it, too?

Go for the easy panty drop ASAP, and in a couple weeks, when he is hanging around sometimes and being more comfy, go for the pocket.

Refresh my short, faulty memory. How long have you been doing Plan A, and how long has the A been going on?

ever notice as soon as we start the pantie talk ... all the MB men disappear... why is that?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm certain they are READING every word ... LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Pep - I noticed that too.

So let's warn them - most women are not above using their female charms. After all, (thank God), we are different from men.

**thud** What have y'all done to this nice lady?? She comes here for help and the next thing I know yall have her running around town with no underbritches on like that trashy Brittney Spears!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> What have you people done to this nice woman?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I feel like I have wondered into a HO-down!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I hope she's gonna use some hot red thong panties with pink fine lace. Something that makes a STATEMENT, if yanno what I mean.

Is Britney from Texas???? Just askin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

We don't have no ho's here, bite yore tongue!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> She is a Louisiana HO'! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mel - It's ladies night, and we are running wild.

tho ith I bith my tongth I takf funny

you gals need to get your britches on and act like ladies! To shame!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Plan A = No Britches (this is war dammit)

WE MARCH COMMANDO!

WHATTA HO!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Nite y'all, I am off to do a lap dance for the hubby! **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On the Friday night thing...Neak's idea about playing with the men's cologne samples at the mall is a good idea. Just get the whiff of one of 'em onto you, though!

When you get back...maybe if you wear a button up shirt, have it buttoned up slightly wrong? Tousle your hair a little bit. Maybe use some eyedrops to make your eyes extra dewy-looking and sparkly. Maybe bite you lips enough so that they are naturally reddened and give the impression of being a teensy bit swollen? Be sweet and a little "breathless"

Oh, gosh! I dunno! Maybe this is all a bit over the top? Forget the button-up-wrong shirt idea, and probably the rest, too. I think the idea is to make him wonder if somebody else might be trying to move in on "his territory" without making him think you're screwing around, too. A little manly scent around you won't hurt...after all, you could have danced with someone.

Anyway, being a police officer, he may start trying to keep tabs on you (which should really go over BIG with OW...NOT!), but he will go crazy when he can't find anything on you, which should make him start coming over more often so he can figure out what's going on with you...thus giving you more Plan A ops.

Oh...and when he's around, if you DO wear panties, make it thongs...with the low-riders, and bend over occasionally
so he can get a peek at the thong.

Push up bras are good, too. Particularly if you start wearing more revealing shirts/tops. If you wear a button-front shirt, unbutton one more button than you usually do. If you're still perky enough...no bra works good, too...especially with a THIN top.

Oh...and some men get turned on by women who work out.

So....get a workout tape and some cute and revealing lycra workout clothes. If you have long hair, put it up into a tousled, but cute, ponytail. Work yourself up into a slight sweat (enough to be "dewy") around the time you expect him to arrive. When he arrives, just be casual and friendly. Grab a towel and start patting off some of that dewiness, but do it in a seductive manner. If you put your hair up into a ponytail, you could pull the ponytail holder off and let your hair just kind of tumble down...as you smilingly chit-chat with him. I understand that the sight of a woman's hair tumbling down really gets to some men. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Maybe use both hands to kinda lift your hair off your neck and let it fall down again. That will give him something else to look at, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You could then say something like "Oh, look at the time! I've got to get ready!" Excuse yourself to go take a shower. You could go into your room, just push the door almost shut, start stripping down...and then "realize" that the door is pen and firmly shut the door. If he's peeking, then shutting the door should get to him a little. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hey! Maybe even get one of those FAKE tattoos to put on your hip or back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

THE QUEEN OF CLEVER HAS ARRIVED!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Quote:
Refresh my short, faulty memory. How long have you been doing Plan A, and how long has the A been going on?

PA began 3/12/04 (her email was beg312...can you believe it??) Dday was June 28. Spent summer and fall LBing and unwittingly aiding and abeting the destruction of my M. I really started lurking here about 12/1, then finally registered and started getting great advice here. Probably my first real day of Plan A was 12/10. I reached out to him that day with honesty and caring (it was our 12 yr. anniversary). Soo...not long at all. I'm going for the very quick and very dirty (but in a good way!) Plan A, followed by a very dark B. If I can Plan A for a month, I'll feel proud, but I'll go longer if I can. Just gotta get those opportunities for interaction...and I'm hoping that with Christmas break, there will be more opportunities than there would be otherwise. I'm taking whatever advantage I have.

Any particular reason you ask?

Mostly just wondering how long till you needed to start your Plan B prep.

Dr. Harley's recommendation (updated since the book) is 1 1/2-3 months for women.

But with a killer Plan A of the quality you are doing, I think a month would probably be enough if that's all you could stand.

So many A's peter out close to the 6mo mark, and they are already well over that, so chances are good they are on shaky ground already. Plan B will just kill it off that much faster.

Wow, Lady had some great suggestions! I really liked the working out one, especially. You are going to drive this guy bonkers!

And Melody, dear, WHO YA CALLIN A HO????????

We march commando, bwaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!

Geez...I step away to bake cookies for DS school Christmas party and look what I come back to! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> This is all great fun to read!

But here's where I have to pick and choose. I'm all for stretching my comfort zone, because I think that's very healthy and promotes growth, but I still have to be ME. You know what I mean? If I go too over the top, he'll know it's just a farce because he knows ME. And one of the reasons that Plan Aing works for me right now is because I finally get to be true to ME. I do love my H, not the WH, but my H. I can Plan A because it allows me to be honest with myself about that, and at the same time demonstrate my love to him AND respect myself AND maintain my integrity.

Operation PP and the perfume (so now it's Operation PPP!) work for me. The little whispers work for me. Was it Pep's thing, about getting WH's attention through a whisper? Movies and time spent as a family work for me. VMs and TMs that are a teeny bit suggestive work for me. Dropping admiring comments works great for me. That's more who I am--actually, it's who I WAS ONLY BETTER, and I believe it's more what WH would respond to in me, because that's what he responded to me when he met me and married me.

OW is so much more the "oh, I'm so sweaty, notice me with my hair in my eyes so that I look alluring. Even on a 90 degree day with 89% humidity, I will never wear a ponytail because it distracts from my look. And even if I'm just folding laundry, I'm always in my high heels and dressed up." If you would have asked my H four years ago what he thought of someone like that he would have scoffed and how high maintenance and self-absorbed she was. Mind you, I'm nothing to sneeze at...WH has said many times that I'm better looking than she is. I always look nice and trendy and pretty...I definately care about how I look, I just don't fuss over myself. To me, that would just be fake, and I know he would see through it. I can push it, but not too far...because it would him away either because it scared him or because he would know it wasn't sincere and he couldn't trust me.

And I don't say this for him...it's for me, too! I know who I am now. I don't need to be someone I'm not to be worthy of love and affection and (dammit!!) friggin' adoration from my HUSBAND. He knew the real me when he met me, he knew the real me when he asked me to marry him, he knew the real me when he said I do. The real me had his children, the real me cried on his shoulder as my dad died. The real me also didn't work hard enough at my marriage, but the real me owns up to that and is willing to fight for it. But I won't give up the real me.

Gee...(looking over my shoulder)...Where did THAT come from?? Is that my Power talking? It sounds so ungracious! I don't want to offend anyone...actually all the comments are so helpful, because as I read through, I was thinking, I can't do that, I can't go that far. But I want to be clear it's not because I'm afraid or not willing...it's that it's just not ME.

BTW: I believe WH's quote was "she doesn't hold a candle to you in so many ways." (this was early August) About the same time was when he told me that he "love you to my core." Words, words, words.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Was this a lightbulb moment for me? Hmmm...maybe it's just because it's almost 1 a.m. and I have to get up extra early to finish these cut out cookies. Anything for my sweet DS8! (sweet DS11 doesn't need his cookies til Friday)

(((((all around))))

LilSis

Just so ya know that I'm still listening: I am starting a pilates class in January. And I'm SO going to find some cute little yoga outfit...Target has some cute stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WOW!!! Listen to you ....!!
Way to be impressive, sis. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are SOOOOO far ahead of the game. And certainly ahead of any sweaty high-heeled overdone OW.....

(I'm working on cupcakes for school parties tomorrow .... but it's only 11 here.)

-AmI.

ML, wanna call me wife and give her some lessons???? In lap dance that is, not **snort** !!!!!

Anyway, the idea of wearing the panties once before planting them is brilliant....Good luck !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

You were right, Pep...the guys ARE here...

Hey, there's nothing wrong with lurking. You know, this is the most action I've gotten in six months.

OMG..this is a MB PLAN A Gold Mine..LOVE IT..LOVE IT!!!

Seriously, though, Sis, I want to help you out with some of your thinking on this..

You say:



I'm not exactly sure where you are going with this..but PLAN A is about CHANGING and demonstrating your CHANGES to your WH. At first he will think your changes are a FARCE (as you say)..but you maintain those CHANGES..so that he realizes that it is not a FARCE..Straight from Steve Harley: "HE HAS TO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE CHANGED. You do not want to be the ME that you WERE. It was the ME that you WERE that created the conditions for TURD to make her way into your H's heart. Don't make the mistake that I did in being SELF-RIGHTEOUS. I was called on making statements such as yours by STEVE HARLEY. You see what I mean? It's about MINDSET. I understand what you are saying but there is a NEED FOR YOU TO CHANGE even it feels like you are GOING OVER THE TOP....With practice, you will feel comfortable with the NEW YOU....



This is what Pep was talking about yesterday. PLAN A is NOT about what works FOR YOU. It's about what works for your WAYWARD HUSBAND. I know, YUCK.... totally your GIVER and not your TAKER....



What I am about to say may HURT... but this is the mindset that is necessary for the BATTLE...I had to come to accept this about the OW in my case...HE IS "IN LOVE" with this woman now. She is the one that is filling his LOVE BANK. He sees everything about her as being WONDERFUL. THIS IS YOUR OPPONENT. Face the fact that he may ADORE all of the ABOVE NOW..It won't bother him until PLAN B.

SO NOW YOU HAVE TO CREATE OVER-THE-TOP MEMORIES OF YOU WHEN HE HAS TO BE WITH HER 24/7.



ANOTHER SAD FACT...The H that you once knew and had is GONE. A part of him NOW may like a high maintenance/self-absorbed woman or whatever she is....THERE IS DEFINITELY SOMETHING ABOUT HER THAT HE FINDS TO BE EXTREMELY ATTRACTIVE....



You see, something about this mindset is concerning me for you. I don't know exactly how to put it into words. Speaking from my experience, I had to come to grips with the fact that so much of what I assumed was so RIGHT AND GOOD about myself as a WIFE was WRONG. During PLAN A, I was instructed by Steve to demonstrate my CHANGES. Steve encouraged me to continue to PRACTICE so that I felt more AUTHENTIC. Your specifics may be different than mine.

I HAD TO DEMONSTRATE MY CAPACITY TO MEET THE EMOTIONAL NEEDS THAT I HAD NOT BEEN MEETING. H' need for ADMIRATION...H's need for AFFECTION....

THIS IS YOUR GOAL DURING PLAN A...DEMONSTRATING YOUR CAPACITY TO MEET THE PARTICULAR NEEDS THAT YOU WERE NOT MEETING....

There is a need for us to make changes in ourselves given changes in age and in circumstances. I'm not recommending that you give up the essence of who you are. I didn't give up the essence of who I am..but I WAS NOT PERFECT. You are NOT PERFECT and it is important for your own self-interest, whether with your H or not, that you are ALWAYS OPEN TO PERSONAL CHANGE....



THIS IS SOO..SOOO..KEY...This tells you that you need to MAKE CHANGES in the areas where SHE IS SUCCEEDING...SHOW YOUR CAPACITY TO MEET THE NEEDS THAT SHE IS NOW MEETING...In PLAN B, she will FAIL at meeting ALL OF HIS NEEDS...

HE HAS TO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE CHANGED AND YOUR CHANGE IS AUTHENTIC AND REAL....

I CAN HONESTLY SAY THAT I HAVE NEVER TURNED BACK INTO THE WIFE THAT I WAS PRIOR TO PLAN A..even when my then WH was trying to provoke me back into being that wife.

Had an inspriation this morning and don't know why it didn't come to me earlier. Guess I was distracted by all the panty talk.

You may recall that WH and FIL will be alone with the boys on Christmas Eve, which is when their family always celebrates. I think that will be really, really pathetic given that usually there is a housefull of family and a great meal. You may also recall that MIL (totally my advocate) escaped the chaos and drama by leaving early for their place in AZ; she'll be missing Christmas entirely. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

So here's my idea...enlist MIL's help to get me invited to Christmas Eve. After all, WH, FIL and the boys will be celebrating at the IL's house (even though she's not there), and I would hope that MIL has some sway with FIL. If she told FIL that I will be alone on Christmas Eve, etc., how could he NOT invite me? After all, it's his house, my boys are there, and he should darn well be able to have over whomever he chooses, regardless of what WH thinks. Just because he's living there (rent free) doesn't mean he shoud dictate who is invited to the house for Christmas.

I would even be willing to make the traditional casserole my MIL usually makes, along with a number of other familiar goodies. I think a woman's touch is essential to a happy holiday, don't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BTW...LilSisSis has invited me for Christmas Eve, so I'm not really out in the cold, but no one has to know that, now, do they? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

What do you think? Brilliant??

Can't you just go without being invited?

"I've decided that I want to be MY WHOLE FAMILY on Christmas?"

drive the boys to FILs
bring food
take off your coat
laugh
give hugs
give compliments
be warm
be Christmassy
don't leave without the boys

~voila~

"After all, it's his house, my boys are there, and he should darn well be able to have over whomever he chooses, regardless of what WH thinks. Just because he's living there (rent free) doesn't mean he shoud dictate who is invited to the house for Christmas."

You are trying to create the positive. I see a lot of potential negative in this if it will upset your H. Just a thought.

mimi:
Okay...I'm working with you here. Let me see if I'm understanding. What I have to do is demonstrate through my actions that I have CHANGED. That I am NO LONGER the same safe, boring wife that I was. That **I** can infuse some excitement into his life. That I am willing to REALLY go outside my comfort zone...far, far out of my comfort zone...to be VERY demonstrative in my admiration and attraction to him.

One really significant point that you make is that it will become more comfortable. I hadn't considered that.

I guess the suggestion that elicited my reaction last night (at 1 AM) was along the lines of making him believe that I'd been with another guy (shirt mis-buttoned, etc.)

Part of what I'm struggling with is that, to me, one element in being a lighthouse is that WH needs to know that the lighthouse leads to land; that it is real, that it is home, that it is true...that it's not just one of those bouys out in the middle of the ocean bobbing around and would leave him stranded. It's about gaining WH's trust, not just trust/belief that I have changed, but trust that I am doing this from a postion of sincerity and love. Does this make ANY sense? I don't know if I'm expressing it correctly, and if I am, I may still be off base.

So...I'm with you on being WAY more out there than I had thought I needed to be to TRULY, OVERTLY DEMONSTRATE MY AFFECTION AND ADMIRATION FOR HIM IN VERY RADICAL WAYS. I just question crossing some sort of line that would not demonstrate that I am coming from a position of trust-worthiness, truth and love. After all, RT is absolutely not trust-worthy or true. She's all about lying and deceit. I still think I can do things that are radical and demonstrative without sacrificing my authenticity.

Is there a way to balance this, or am I still NOT getting it? Please walk me through...I really appreciate it!

LilSis

Having his WIFE and BOYS with him on Christmas Eve might upset the WH, it would not upset your H

I vote go
assume that if your sons are to be there ... you are also invited

if you are asked to leave by WH
go to FIL and say your goodbyes ... and TAKE the kids back to their HOME with their MOM

but no scene
no yelling
no argueing
no 'nuttin
leave pleasantly

surrender FIL's right to have whomever he wants in his home

but take your kids with you if you leave

desiring family time Christmas Eve may indeed "upset" your WH ... but he does have a family & he does have a wife .... and part of his consequences of adultery is the pain of such situations of his creation

do not forget
Plan A is also a stick
not just a carrot

the stick is ~~~> WH does NOT get to order up Christmas with the kids and kick out his wife

sorry Charlie

Pep

IMHO... not only do you get it... that was about as perfect as I could imagine. You didn't ask for my input on it... but I think you hit the nail on the head!

sorry Pep... but you are dead wrong here. The kids should not be used as pawns and that is what your actions are advocating. This should all be worked out ahead of time to avoid ANYTHING that will create conflcit for the kids on Christmas. If it cannot be worked out for her to go... the kids should stay with her in her home. But work it out ahead of time.


ls...imagine for a moment the turmoil these suggestions would create. If you are asked to leave and attempt to take the kids with you and you WH does not agree there is potential for a major scene. And if you do not have legal custody and the police are called... you wind up leaving without the kids.... trust me, it happens.
Or imagine your WH decides that it is okay for you to leave with the kids..then you have to tell the kids... say goodbye to dad and grandpa... this has to be upsetting to them. Another potential scene.
Be above all of this. Get the okay ahead of time and if none comes... you and the WH can work out the details of the day ahead of time.
Do you really believe that SH would advocate what is being suggested here? I say not a chance!

And I'm a bit afraid of pi55ing him off...our legal agreement is that we establish "reasonable" parenting time. If I prevented him from having the kids for his Christmas celebration (such as it is), it might backfire later.

MIL has been a huge advocate for me...is there a reason that you think I shouldn't enlist her help to get it all worked out ahead of time? Keep in mind, I don't think MIL or FIL would be under any obligation to share the plan with WH. FIL invites me for dinner, that's his call and none of WH's business. But in any case, I can't deny WH the kids on Christmas Eve just because I'm not welcome. It wouldn't be fair to them, even.

MEDC

children are NOT used as pawns

children are not psycologically safe where their mother is not welcome

they are still MARRIED

as in

MAN & WIFE

a package deal

if you think I am dead wrong, so be it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

but , I am still happily married and recovered in a wonderful marriage
so is Mimi

my opinion is valid
so is yours

mine comes from female experience of saving my own marriage

Pep

Exactly ... work it out ahead of time. I edited my post to add a couple of scenarios if you follow the advice given here. Pep and Mimi are being a great help to you here.... I just think they are off the mark a small amount on this single point.

your comment about not leaving without the kids puts them in the position of pawns. bottom line is that even though he is a WH, he is still their father and unless a court says he cannot spend time with them, the "stick" in this case is an alienation of affection. I would agree that if she cannot work it out ahead of time that the children should be with her in their home for Christmas... but not to shuffle them over there on the chance that the WH and FIl will be okay with it.

And yes, you and Mimi come at this from the female perspective of someone that helped save their M... but be thankful that you have a H that was not so far gone that it could be saved. Not all are so lucky.

Hey, LilSis! Sorry if I confused you. If you'll reread my post, you'll see that I said that some of my suggestions were going over the top...and that you probably shouldn't take things that far. I didn't take it that far with my own H, but I do know that he got worried that I might actually find somebody else!

Oh, and you don't want to do a whole bunch of stuff too close together. Listen to Mimi. What you want to do is get yourself into your WH's mind...make him start thinking about you all the time. That is one reason for doing things that are out of the ordinary for you!

Being a tad bit outrageous every now and then is good! Oh, and when doing things with the boys...be a little outrageous around them, too, with jokes and cutting up and doing things that are fun. Have ADVENTURES with your sons whenever you can. I can guarantee that they'll laughingly tell their dad all about "Hey, Dad, you know what Mom did the other day?" In short, laugh a lot with your boys...not just for your H, but for you and the boys, too!

Great advice.

Christmas Eve---- I think I'd call FIL first. "Dad, I planned on making Mom's traditional casserole on Christmas Eve for all of us and was wondering if it would be OK with you if I brought it over to share with everyone?"

Your Plan A---A GREAT job so far! Remember, as much as your H admires your wonderful qualities and skills as a W and as a mother, he wants You, his GF, back again.

Lady C did take back her suggestion about the shirt, because she didn't want your WH to actually see an indication you'd done something wrong. (Although you COULD have just been trying on clothes, lol.)

EXACTLY!!!



You are making your CHANGES from a position of sincerity and love..Right? You have to BELIEVE in the NECESSITY of making CHANGES. That's what I am attempting to instill in your MINDSET and then they will come across as SINCERE...



Your actions will feel radical to you NOW... But, you will become accustomed to this and it won't seem radical....YOU JUST MIGHT BECOME THE A WILD WOMAN like me at the direction of PEP, SUSAN and OTHERS..including MEL but she's trying to play GOODY TWO SHOES...LAP DANCING AND ALL.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



It's not EITHER-OR, Sis. In order to CHANGE, you have to go to a place where you feel like it is over the top..

You are doing this out of love for your husband and in fighting for your marriage. You are right hers ACTUALLY is for show. Rest assured she is ON HER BEST, BEST BEHAVIOR, PUTTING ON THE FULL SHOW.. THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE COMBATTING.....

My FWH continues to think that his dinner will MAGICALLY BE WAITING...warmed and everything..when he walks into the house...I still have not been able to figure out how she pulled this off..with the RIGHT TEMPERATURE and all... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Lilsis, you posted:
"I can Plan A because it allows me to be honest with myself about that, and at the same time demonstrate my love to him AND respect myself AND maintain my integrity."

Wonderfully said. Honestly, print it out, put it on your mirror or in your wallet.

There are a couple suggestions in this thread that would compromise your honesty, one is a best friend making a phone call and you responding as if it was a date. I understand that it tweaks the H, but, it isn't honest because you are actually & actively deceiving him.

Panties/no panties, roses on the bedstead, going out, smelling different all to the good.

And, I agree about making the Christmas arrangements ahead of time, with communication with your H. It is simply respectful.

And, even though the longer a spouse is wayward, the less respect the BS tends to feel, you do want to be that lighthouse.

Your statement shows you have a good grasp of your personal boundaries and realize where they can be expanded and the limits to which you will go.

Most of us here have personal experiences that color our words and advice. Personally I did stuff that I would never advise anyone to do (and not necessarily following anyone's advice!)...yet I too am in a long-term recovered marriage.

Change may be very good, but, at the end of the day, you are the person you will always live with.

You are dealing with the holidays and deadlines for deciding how to act during the celebrations, just think through your actions and the possible consequences so that you won't look back and regret...that may mean stepping out of your comfort level, it should mean protecting your integrity.

Pepper, Mimi, Melody, Lady C, MEDC, Believer, Neak all good people with good intent, no offense intended.

LOVE the plan of showing up for Christmas Eve! GREAT idea! Fun, happy, family time, you get to show off your culinary skills and save them from a take-out-pizza Christmas Eve .... That's an image that will stick with him for a long, long time!

I vote for a little bit of pre-arrangement with the IL's .... just in case WH has something really icky planned, like bringing OW (GAG!). Plus if FIL is a fore-warned, then he can help defuse any potential scene by being welcoming and happy to see you and ushering you right in - instead of being shocked and speachles and useless.

Wow, I'm so impressed!!! Loving this thread!

I did some thinking over lunch.

I think I'm getting now the sense of what you are saying about being YOU. I think you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

Agreed. There will never be another YOU. Your H wants YOU..no doubt about it. That's what he is saying, the OW is NOT YOU.

I think it's best to think of it BEHAVIORALLY. You are not changing the essence of your PERSONALITY. You are ADDING NEW BEHAVIORS in places where there were DEFICITS.

On the other hand, the OW is NOT BEING HERSELF. She is being PHONY, NON-AUTHENTIC. Your WH will learn this during PLAN B. But right now he thinks that this is the REAL HER.

She is able to FOOL HIM by the BEHAVIORS. That's why I said to think of this BEHAVIORALLY. She is evidencing the BEHAVIORS which are MEETING HIS PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS.

So your job is to continue to be YOU and PLUS to begin EVIDENCING THOSE BEHAVIORS. Then he will appreciate you as ALMOST PERFECT...

So I'm changing my viewpoint a bit. The DEFINITION of CHANGE in the MB PERSPECTIVE, I think is TO ADD ON NEW AND IMPROVED SPOUSE BEHAVIORS....NOT TO CHANGE WHO YOU ARE AS A PERSON...

Using me for example, I absolutely was not meeting my FWH's NEEDS for ADMIRATION AND AFFECTION..So behaviorally, I began SAYING THANK-YOU for his good deeds in the present, EXPRESSING APPRECIATION for his good deeds in the past, saying I LOVE YOU, leaving him LOVE NOTES, sending him CARDS, LOOKING into his EYES when he was talking to me, SITTING WITH HIM when he watches TV, etc... BEHAVIORS... But I was STILL ME, picking out the cards that I liked, using words that fit with who I am.....STILL ME....

The LOVE BANK of BEHAVIORS..fill it up until it is BRIMMING..

Regarding the Xmas dinner, DO WHAT YOU THINK YOUR H WILL FIND TO BE ATTRACTIVE IN THE LONG RUN...In whatever way that you can get there, GET THERE...

You see, maybe Pep's H is like my H..My H LOVES THE SELF-RESPECT AND SELF-CONFIDENCE that I developed during PLAN A..."I LOVE A WOMAN WHO LOVES HERSELF..IT'S HARD FOR ME TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOURSELF" is what he has said...

So he likes for me to "BE FORWARD" so would have liked for me to positively and cheerfully show up to DEMONSTRATE MY LOVE FOR HIM..this what it is ALL ABOUT NOW..DEMONSTRATING LOVE....

Lor...just saw your post as I went to post this...Thank you. I hope your words help to clarify my points. Thank you for bringing up the comment about lying and deceit especially...I just can't go THAT far and maintain my integrity. If I am willing to compromise my integrity and sense of self, then I'm really no better than WH or OW.

Lady C and Neak:
Yes, I appreciate that you did address the shirt thingie...it must have been the 1 AM/up to my arms in cookie dough that I didn't recognize the subtleties of your suggestions. Sorry! Regardless, though, it did raise the question of how far is too far...which I think is a really relevant issue worth personally exploring and one that you've all helped me clarify.

mimi, et al:
I'm getting it, slow but sure. I guess I need to process it all for a while before I internalize it. I DO have the mindset that I need to make changes. I 100% BELIEVE it...I don't WANT the marriage we had before. I totally own 50% of the problems in our marriage pre-A. Further, I am ready to go to the mat to actually SHOW him that I GET THAT and am ACTING ON THAT KNOWLEDGE in order to be the wife that he needed me to grow into. I do truly believe this is growth, not a false, contrived act that I'm putting on just to snare him, only to return to my former ways as soon as he's dumped the "love of his life."

That's where I have to earn his trust, though. I CAN be radical...I took a teeny baby step the other night (panty remark) and it was totally empowering! I know I could totally love getting more and more out there to win my man, but so much depends on even having the opportunities to be demonstrative. Grrr...frustration.

I need to be edgy, I can be edgy, you have absolutely convinced me of that! But it has to be in a way that doesn't feel like I'm overtly compromising my lighthouse-ness...AND in the ways that are doable given my less-than-optimal circumstances. How about this: I'll be a burning hot lighthouse! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Heck, forget the lighthouse, I'll just be a huge enormous bonfire on the beach. Smokin'! But still solidly planted on the beach, in the safe harbor of home. Now if he were just a moth...

I guess right now--at this early stage--I just see it as a delicate balance between being the lighthouse of safe harbor and the wild woman. I think what you are saying is that I can be BOTH, and I'm just getting that. You guys have the experience, so I'll keep revisiting this issue as I move forward, pushing myself to go over the top and test my limits. It sounds fun! and you all have certainly given me PLENTYof ideas...

I think we are more on the same page than not, do you?

LS

Did you see my post just previous to yours?

YES!! Perfect. That is EXACTLY what I was (so unsucessfully!) trying to say. Thanks for your eloquence!

(((((mimi))))

LS

(Didn't see yours until after I posted mine...we're talking right on top of each other) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Miami,

I loved your post, it's great!

nab

Hi everyone.
Don't know why, but I had sort of a bad afternoon. Maybe PMS is setting in...maybe because it is cold and rainy. I called a friend who I can always count on to remind me of all the things I need to remember...of which the addiction metaphor is key. Without that metaphor, I end up listening to Fear and Doubt, and start thinking that WH is willing to sacrifice everything...his children, friends, family, integrity, morals, relationship with God just to GET AWAY FROM ME. Ugh. Self-blame is one of the particular cruelties of A, don't you think? I am much better at recognizing it and exorcising it...it still creeps up every now and then, but doesn't debilitate and consume me like it used to.

Anyway, I've decided to call MIL tonight and talk to her about my thoughts on Christmas Eve. She is an excellent sounding board and would likely be able to give good advice about how to proceed. I'm very interested in her reaction. I expect her to be supportive, but who knows. If she shoots me down or tells me it's a bad idea, I don't know if I'd have the courage to call WH and ask if I can be a part of the celebration.

AmI: OW is NOT welcome in their home. In addition, WH and I have a verbal agreement that he will not have the boys around OW. If he violates that agreement, WH and our respective attorneys are aware that I will go to court to ask that such a restriction be included in our temporary support agreement. On advice of my attorney, I didn't push for that NC to be included in the current agreement because WH gave in on some financial issues. My attorney included the above "verbal agreement....go to court" language in the cover letter sent to WH's attorney along with the support agreement, so it is documented. My attorney thinks we are covered even though it is currently not binding, because if WH violates it, it would look very bad for him to the judge.

I did worry about your Christmas scenario myself, but now that I know FIL will be there, I can sleep easier.

mimi: I completely agree with everything in your post, and I'm so grateful for how well you expressed my thoughts for me! It is about behavior, and every couple is unique. I loved your examples. For me, I KNOW that he likes(d?) me to BE FORWARD sexually (thus the no panties comment), but I know he would react negatively if I tried to "impose" myself on his Christmas Eve by just showing up. He would not see that as confidence, he would see it as manipulative. It's all a matter of perspective... and of respecting each other's--and our own--individuality. For those we truly love, we should be willing to stretch in new, different, and potentially scary ways for the purpose of deepening the relationship or increasing intimacy. What those "new and different ways" are is, of course, different for everyone.

Off to bake another batch of cookies for yet another school party.

LilSis

DO NOT LISTEN TO THE DOUBT!!!!!!! YOUR REAL H IS IN THERE SOMEWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*groan* do not mention cookie dough right now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

This thought process helped me...

Whenever you give into the FEAR AND DOUBT, she is WINNING...

She wants you to DOUBT YOURSELF and to GIVE UP....

Then she most DEFINITELY would have WON THE WAR...

The last batch of Chocolate Mocha Rounds just went in the oven. I'll be up early frosting and then sprinkling them with crushed up candy canes. DS11 has high standards. No pan cookies for him, he's gotta have the kind that require multiple steps. I'm sure his fellow 6th graders will appreciate my efforts...NOT. Neak, are you groaning because:
A. You have baked so many cookies over the past few days that you are repulsed by the word "dough";
B. You have eaten so much of said cookie dough that you want to ralph;
C. You, too, have some baking to look forward to tonight;
D. All of the above.

The calendar and the precipitous drop in my mood over the course of just a few hours tells me it's PMS. Sorry for the TMI, guys, but that's the reality. As my high school biology teacher once said, "Try having your testes removed one a month and see if you get crabby."

PMS is fertile ground for Doubt and Fear, though, so I need to be extra vigilent. I will refuse to give in and consciously turn away from them and look for Hope and Faith (Love will come later, right?). If I wake up in the night, I will read the Bible. I will remember that my H is in there somewhere (thanks for that one, Neak), and that I need to shine my light as brightly as I can to help him find his way out of the darkness.

I left my MIL a message asking her to call. She will help me remember my H and take the focus off of WH and OW. We will talk about the boys and how I am stronger and wiser. She will tell me how warm and sunny it is in AZ. She is so brokenhearted about what has happened. She also grieves for the loss of son. I am very hopeful that she will see the urgency of getting me in on Christmas Eve, and she will facilitate that happening.

I know what I want from Santa (I'll post this to the other thead, too, in case that's the one Santa's checking); a crystal ball. Is it too late to write a letter??

LS

This is what I tell myself. If my WS REALLY wanted a divorce, wouldn't they have gotten one by NOW?

Afterall, my WW has been telling me that she wanted a divorce since August, and she has only talked to a lawyer once for 20 minutes, and that was right after I exposed.

Well, my WH filed in October, so I guess he really does want one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It truly disgusts me that he would spend money--our money, and lots of it!--to destroy our marriage and our family...but couldn't take the time to go to one MC session. But that's the crackhead WH...right, everyone? Absent of any logic, reason, morality, or integrity....just get the fix no matter the cost. He will crash, it won't last, ratturd will not win and destroy my H and father of my children.

Okay, I was depresed after writing the first sentence, but then I bit back. See? See? Gettin it...gettin it! (pat self on back)

Hosea, huh, Neak? Nighty, night, all.

Jim and LilSis -

Affairs always end. Hang your hope on that.

Just curious.

I've never seen it mentioned here or maybe I've forgotten, but when in Plan A, is it appropriate to ever say anything, even just in passing, about OW? Or should the BS just act as if she doesn't exist, not worth even mentioning, etc. Needless to say, any comment about OW would be negative...

My sense would be act as if she doesn't exist, but maybe I'm wrong and some occassional well-aimed skewers might find a mark.

??

I think it is better not to focus attention on her. Gives away some of your power. Anyway, I talked a lot about OW, and I'm divorced now.

Believer is RIGHT ON TARGET.

Recall what I told you yesterday and other stuff many of us have said.

She's filling his LOVE BANK and he's HOOKED ON HER so he experiences EVERYTHING about her as being WONDERFUL. She is GOD'S GIFT TO HIM..his TRUE LOVE..a PERFECT WOMAN...I know, YUCK..but this gives you the flavor of your foe....

So any negative talk about her brings him to her DEFENSE..you have to be perceived in his mind as the BAD GUY anyways who is standing in the way of him getting his FULL FIX of HER....

Your goal is to IMPLANT MEMORIES OF YOU..to be STORED..for him to RETRIEVE LATER when he begins coming to grips with who she REALLY IS because she will be UNABLE to adequately MEET HIS NEEDS....

LilSis,

You're really gettin' it and even your senses are leading you in the right direction. No negative comments about OW. Not only does it give her power but it makes him feel the need to defend her. And you DON'T want that!!!!

You can be STRATEGIC though if you think there are indirect comments that you can make to combat the affair.

For example, I was able to hint that the OW will try to get pregnant because I knew that it bugged her that she was not the "MOTHER OF HIS CHILDREN"..he said she would "CRY" when he told her our birth stories...DOUBLE YUCK...

Anyways, so I would say stuff like: "I'm sure glad our kids are grown up now; "I wonder how older people cope with having babies, etc....

Plus, OW had a young teenage daughter and my H had a terrible time coping with our sons' adolescence..so I would remind him about the difficult times with our sons...

These points were instilled in his mind prior to PLAN B ...at the suggestion of folks here... and it turns out that he also kept these points in mind.. H "HATED" HER DAUGHTER AND SHE HIM..plus THE OW WAS SCHEMING TO GET PREGNANT...

Thanks, everyone. Everything you said makes perfect sense. Just to be safe, I'll keep my trap closed and my smiled glued on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

mimi: To your point about OW's kids. I can't imagine that OW's son (the one who was such good friends with DS11) will be particularly receptive to WH's new role in his life, especially if he's smart enough to figure out (even at an unconscious level) how he was decieved and used for so long. And it will HAVE to affect WH deep down when he spends time with OW and her kids...knowing he's not with his own boys, that they are missing out. OW's kids totally lack the intellectual curiosity of our boys...and I'm not just saying that because I'm their mom.

What breaks my heart is how "close" WH was, even before d-day, to OW's youngest son, who's now 5. I wish I could ask WH with whom he has the more abiding relationship: our DS8 or OW's 5 year old. I think I kow the answer. Yuck, Yuck, Yuck!! (don't worry, I won't ask!)

Thanks, all.
LS

Ark helped me to BELIEVE that people can CHANGE...

At one point, I was willing to ACCEPT that my H and our YS would never have a good relationship because our YS was at home during the A and my H, like your H, seemed to be more distant from him...

My H is SOOOOO changed in terms of his parenting. To me, it's a MIRACLE...

Just last night, he and our son were having the BEST TIME with each other...

This is why I'm such a BELIEVER...

I SOOOO pray this for you and others....

HAPPINESS..regardless of the outcome of your marriages...HAPPINESS for YOU and YOURS....

And the answer is:

E. I was already ralphing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I just ate 5 soda crackers, my first solid food since Wednesday night. (The two pieces of garlic bread I ate yesterday afternoon didn't stay around long enough to count. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />)

As I told heartbroken, if your WH brings up the subject of the OW you may be able to glean some useful intel from it, but other than that, focus on the two of you. She is nothing.

It doesn't matter if he already filed. He'll still change his mind when the aliens return his brain.

LilSis:

Quite the story.

When I first happened on your other thread, I thought you had alot of work to do. And since Dec 10th, you seem to be doing it.

Remember my perspective. I am the WH. For 4.5 years. So, I will try to get into your WH head for a little while and help you succeed in the Plan A.

Do not be concerned with how OW looks. It played a role in attracting your H's further Attention, but nothing else. You knew this women for many years before the A, so something finally turned it inot an A. You are slim, trim and great looking. Remember that. So OW started feeding him the other things (EN's) that he needed.

You stated that H seemed to be depresssed when your YS hit 2 years old. This may be true. Probably not. What else was going on? When my son was born, my wife became superMOM. And many of my needs were unmet. Any many of my problems as a man and Husband were exposed to even a greater light, and I was not meeting the most mimimal standards as expressed by my W. Your two children could have certainly pushed him further in these directions. SO, the affection, admiration, and SF he used to get from you diminishes and criticism for not being a great Dad, father and H increases. And you are under alot of stress as well. OMG, you have two children now! In hindsight, we can see these things alot clearer than we did at the time. When the whole Dr. Harley and EN's idea was revealed to BS and I, alot more stuff made sense. Remember that. You have gained knowledge from here, that WH has not had the benefit of. Maybe later, when you know that recovery is in place, you can show him HNHN and start building a great marriage.

Your H is cool to you, reacting to your whispers about panties, etc. like you are his sister. Right now, you are his sister. Keep up the gentle but firm pressure as noted by Mimi, Pep, Neak and that Wild and Crazy Lapdancer Mel. Show the opportunity for love that you have. OW can not compete with you. Mine couldn't, I just took OW on a 4.5 year ride. But OW met my needs for something else, Conversation, Admiration and Affection, that I was not getting from BS. Adventure with OW, the secret of it all was a rush. My BS and I now have that type of relationship. She dresses a little naughterer, Talks to me a little dirtier, Shows me admiration for the work I do and the things that I do accomplish. Definately not acting like my sister. This is side you need to show. You had it before, It just has to come back into every day life.

I would recommend, that you propose that one night a week, your H comes to your H and spends the evening with the kids and puts them to bed. It's his house and family. After the kids bedtime, you can return from being "out". It gets him back involved with the Kids. You do not have to be in the house, just elsewhere. You can go to IL's I guess, or a friends, do not hide from him at least on this night! But he can spend time with the kids, tucking them into thier OWN BEDS, and you get to see him at the end, to kiss him and say "Careful-love you-bye." as he leaves. He does this two-three times, watch how long he lingers when you return....

Takes him away from OW. And it makes him a Family man.

LG!!!

LOVE IT!! LOVE IT!! LOVE IT!!

LISTEN TO HIM, SIS!!

As I told LG before, he is so speaking the words of my FWH..following his script..and I think the script of Sis' WH...

THIS IS ALMOST EXACTLY OUR STORY as you describe below: ( and a lot of what I've been trying to communicate to, Sis... from a BW's perspective... Now, the perspective of the WH...)



WHAT A HUGE BLESSING FOR SIS TO HAVE YOUR PERSPECTIVE, LG!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yep!! Like I said,,he wants YOU, the GF you, back again.

Great, great stuff! Thank you SOOO much, LG. It does provide a wonderful perspective. The description of your pre-A relationship with your W sounds like it could have been written about my life. So similar. And with mimi saying the same thing...it's just interesting, isn't it? I did become supermom...working, keeping home, volunteering. H fell to the bottom of the priority list (yikes, it hurts to say it), and I did feel like he began to fall off in his contributions to family life. Almost like the more I did, the less he did. I owned it, he didn't. It's no wonder commitment was lost. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> BTW, I'd love the opportunity to be naughtier, etc.

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the idea of having him put the kids to bed. More important even than the impact on WH, it would do wonders for the DSs--truly!! They would fall all over themselves with glee. That's got to be some kind of drug, too, doesn't it?? (I know it is for me...)

But I'm so excited to share my update with you all..so let me cut to that. Three good things, no bad (so far...)

1. My best friend (LilSisSis, aka LSS) came over to hang out with me today as both sets of kids had school. She is a FBS, just recently entering recovery and still struggling with a FWH in withdrawl. So we have TONS to discuss and can understand each other completely. We often say that we are fated to cross paths in life...we've been friends since 9th grade gym, roommates in college, I met WH through her, we were each others' maids of honor, our Hs ended up working for the same PD, we were pregnant together, gave birth to our first children on the same day, and this summer, discovered we were both being cheated on at the same time. Kinda weird, huh?

Anyway, I confided to her about Plan A/B, and she was totally for it. As I'm sure many of you have experienced, most family and friends think WH should be shot, hogtied and kicked to the curb (and I don't even live in Texas!). LSS understands that it is not that simple when one's heart is involved. So she totally supported me...which reinforced my decision to pursue Plan A/B. No offense to all of my virtual supporters on MB, but now I have an actual body that I can confide in and gain support from. It also helps that she knows WH and I so well.

2. I also spoke to MIL. CHA-CHING!! She began to cry when I asked if she would help me be a part of Christmas Eve. She said my asking was an answer to her prayers. We spoke for quite a while, but LSS was here so I told her I'd call her tonight. I assured her that my focus now is to be a lighthouse, both for myself (because it represents my new-found strength and feelings of love overcoming the feelings of anger and resentment) and for WH (because he needs a light to find his own way out of the wilderness). She was so happy, and told me she was going to call FIL this afternoon to help make the Christmas Eve happen. She said that if she knew I were there, it would be the best Christmas present she could ask for. Maybe by tonight I will have more info. I hope FIL goes along with it....fingers crossed (or little prayers, whatever works for you), everyone, please!!

3. I had also called WH today and left VM of course:
"Hi handsome, it's me! It's good to hear your voice, even though it's just the recorded version. Just wanted to make plans for tonight. I'd like to pick up the boys because we have something we need to do here at home before they come over to your place, assuming that's what you are expecting. Give me a call so we can work it out, thanks! C-LY-B."

He called but left no message at about 2:30, then I called him at about 5 when the boys and I had finished our craft project (the picture and frame for him). He said he was at the store and would stop by on his way back. I quickly ran upstairs, fluffed and primped a minute, sprayed some perfume, and packed the kids bag.

When I came downstairs (commando now), I saw his truck parked in the driveway, and he's standing out there looking around aimlessly. I figured when he was tired of standing out there, he'd decide to come in. After a couple of minutes, I just went to the back door and said with a smile, "Are you going to just stand out there all night?"
WH: Can you send them out, please?
LS: --head toss, signaling, come on in--he does, and we stand there together in the back entry. I just look at him expectantly.
WH: Where are the boys, watching TV?
LS: Of course, what else? (with a smile)
WH: Would you go get them for me, please?
LS: Why don't you come on in and get them yourself?
WH: My shoes are wet.
LS: No biggie, just wipe them on the rug. I don't care.
Go to the living room, where the boys are watching TV. WH goes up to DS11 and begins to tickle his feet. I joke about how stinky they are and WH smells them and gives a big pee-yew. DS8 laughs. I tell DS8 to let Daddy tickle his feet, too. No, he laughs! Don't tickle me! Okay, just a little. Big smile (LS's heart melts).
WH: Okay, boys, let's go.
We all slowing make our way to the back door, and DS's take forever as usual getting shoes and coats on.
LS: Oh, you guys forgot your bag.
WH: DS11, run up and get the bag.
DS: Is it packed, mom?
LS: It's left over from the last time you were at your dad's. Everything's clean. Just check it out and if you need something, get it out of your dresser. (stalling for time, here...)
DSs run upstairs.
WH: Will you pay the house insurance and taxes? (looks sheepish)
LS: No, I have a huge credit card bill this month (with a smile) Besides, that's your responsibility. It's in the agreement.
WH: Hmmm...I haven't recieved an agreement.
LS: Do you want to see a copy?
WH: No, that's okay. I wondered why you put that stuff in with my mail.
LS: Well, here, let me show you the agreement, I don't mind.
WH: No, no, that's okay. I'll take care of it.
LS: (with a smile) Well, there's another alternative.
WH: (with a little laugh) yeah, I know.
Boys come back down and there's a little chaos as the finish getting ready
LS: Bye, boys (hugs, kisses)
WH and boys start to head out the door.
LS: Wait a minute. (boys continue walking out and WH turns back. I reach for the zipper on his jacket and pull him towards me. I go to kiss him on the lips and he turns his head away, so it lands on his cheek. We hug, his is one-armed, mine is nice, but it does last a little longer than it needs to--definately not a drive by hug. As we let go, I go to kiss him again and he says no. I say with a smile, why not? and he just shakes his head. So I give him another kiss on the neck this time and give him a nice good hug.
LS: (while hugging) Okay, then, well have a nice weekend with the boys. (we let go) And please give DS8 some extra attention? He really misses you and I know you'll figure out a way to make him feel special.
WH: Okay, maybe he can sleep in my room tonight.
LS: That would be nice. If you want, I am watching a movie tonight. You are welcome to come over after the kids go to sleep.
WH: (smiles) I think I'll stay with them.
LS: Well, your dad is there. It could be fun. I'm going commando again, you know. (if he had looked at all, he probably already did, because I'm wearing the size ones, which are still big and need to be hiked up all the time)
LS gives a wicked grin.
WH: (smiles) Thanks for the offer.
LS: If you change your mind...
WH: Thanks.
LS: Have fun. C-LY-B

Okay...reactions...comments...

I feel good, like I was successful, like I was a lighthouse, like I was fun and flirty the way I'd love to be with him! No pressure, no expectations, just me freely giving to him of myself, purely out of love and acceptance. Ultimately, the fact that I was true to myself and my feelings for my real H is really what's important, right? Honestly, I was a little nervous that I scared him off with the no panties stuff on Tuesday, but he didn't retreat or treat me coldly today, so I choose to take that as a good sign. I felt a little less "sister-ish" today. Just a teeny bit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, everyone--that is so insignificant, though. What a difference this has made to me in this experience. Now if Christmas Eve works out....

you did just GREAT !



WoW
sometimes this stuff gets me all choked up

Pep

I think you did GREAT. Teh stuff with the MIL could pay huge dividends.
The only thing I would continue to caution you on is risking your life (and the life of your children's mother) by having sex with him.
Otherwise... you should be writing a book on how to attract someone!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> This would probably sound a lot more appealing if I hadn't spent almost my entire professional life looking at, at getting a sufficent whiff of, the panty-less crotches of laboring women. But hey, don't let me stop anybody from trying to be sexy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And here all this time I thought all that sniffing was to check and see if her fabric softener was working. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

t&l, who used to be Neak's mom, but who is now seeking anonymity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Wow, thanks, MEDC. I'll write that book after I complete the Girlfriends Guide to Going to Jail. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Gotcha on the health issues. I'm clean...was checked in July after d-day. He was also checked out at that time, but that was before we separated. I don't think it's going to be an issue any time soon, though...getting WAY ahead of myself. He won't even kiss me, so I don't see us getting hot and heavy in the near future. He's got a soulmate, remember? I'm just trying to confuse him a little, is all. Make him wonder...catch him off guard (better yet, get him to let his guard down!)

LS

T&L Bwaahaahaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!

LilSis

"He won't even kiss me, so I don't see us getting hot and heavy in the near future." Don't be too sure of that. We have had lots of instances where the WH showed up for some "married sex".

Who won this BATTLE???? Do you feel the POWER??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



The score is now 2-zip.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Were you speaking of reconciliation here? If you were, YOU GO, GIRL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He is SMILING in reaction to your seductiveness..CREATING POSITIVE MEMORIES..GOOD STUFF!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



EXACTLY!!

Now it's a GIVEN that he's coming in the house on the pickup...

I must have missed something...

Sis is nowhere near having sex with her H...

I think you're close to a kiss on the lips, though....

JUST A PECK, MEDC...Don't get anxious...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Of course I was... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had a good teacher.

Mimi, hon, my money is on WH hitting on his wife soon. His brain is getting mixed up. He just doesn't know it yet.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know. Sis has me SPEECHLESS...

SIS, OH SIS..(Mimi yelling)

Are you there alone?

Your chaperones are out here watching you...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't know about your WH, but you are getting me turned on (then again, I haven't had sex in 5 months).

Keep up the good work. I can guarantee that would have an impact on me. I'm a guy, and we can't resist that for too long.

Jim:
Hey, thanks. Problem is, you are not a crackhead junkie. Sorry. Get back to me when you CANNOT see things clearly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

mimi, et al:
Yes, m'am! All present and accounted for. All clothing intact. No, WH did not come "watch a movie" after the kids went to bed. His loss.

I'm with mimi. As much as I wish it weren't true, I don't see it coming. His brain has been so re-wired that my attempts so far have just interrupted a few itty bitty circuits. As LG said, I'm like his sister. (Ewww...) I'll keep working it, and having fun with it, but it's going to take a lot more time to get him to the point where he EAGERLY drops his drawers...cuz that's what we're talkin' about here, right?

And besides...let's say he does hit on me, then he's just reverting to cake eating, right? Do I just pull a Neak and go all bathroom sinky? Not that there's anything wrong with it.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I like cake, and SF is a high need for WH too. So do I meet that need, even though it's cake eating? And as far as the health issues go, I'm certain he hasn't been with anyone other than ratturd (they're so in LOVE and all), and he was sleeping with both of us for two years, so I guess we already share the same...whatever. (let's all say GROSS together now) I'm just askin'. Be prepared and all.

Back to Operation Christmas Eve. So I spent some time on the phone with MIL tonight. She talked to FIL and he thinks it's a wonderful idea to have me come and is TOTALLY for it. I thought FIL would be a tougher nut to crack. Probably he would do anything to avoid a Hungry Man frozen dinner for his Christmas feast. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> FIL is going to talk to WH, though, before we settle this up. Which I believe, quite honestly, is the respectful thing to do, and quite in line with Plan A. Imposing myself, or showing up where I'm not at all wanted would engender a negative reaction (defensiveness, I'm manipulative, using the kids, etc.), not the postive ones we are looking for. IMHO.

If WH caves, and "lets" FIL invite me, then I can proceed to totally knock his socks off, as per the expert instruction I have received here. If he puts up a stink about me coming, then I guess it's up to FIL to make the call since it's his house. Maybe FIL will invite me anyway and I can still knock WH's socks off in spite of himself. Maybe FIL will say it's not a good idea for fear of a scene on Christmas Eve, and WH will be the bad guy to everyone AGAIN, disappointing his dad, leaving me out in the cold, and denying his kids a half-way normal Christmas Eve.

Given the recent cordial interactions between WH and me, however, he doesn't really have cause to say I'm going to LB all over him, so the only reason to deny me coming to Christmas Eve is because he's SCARED. His claim that it will give the kids the "wrong idea" is just patently ridiculous--not to him of course--but his dad won't buy it.

No matter what, having FIL/MIL push this means that WH can't turn it on me and make it my fault...wait a minute, did I just say that?? Of course it can be my fault. It can be my fault that the sky is blue according to a cracked out WH.

What's odd is that I can barely let myself hope. As soon as I think something good is going to happen to this situation, it gets blown out of the water and something worse happens. I think everything is jinxed, that the other shoe is going drop at any second, that there's something over my shoulder. That's a PTSD response, isn't it?

Thanks for all the laughs tonight. You guys crack me up.
LS

"What's odd is that I can barely let myself hope. As soon as I think something good is going to happen to this situation, it gets blown out of the water and something worse happens. I think everything is jinxed, that the other shoe is going drop at any second, that there's something over my shoulder. That's a PTSD response, isn't it?"

LilSis - Yep, we know exactly how you feel, and it is perfectly normal. Give this some time - remember that you tilled the garden, planted the seeds, and are waiting for your crop.

Hang in there, and let yourself hope.

You never know for sure what will happen from one moment to the next.

One night, I was driving then-WH home from work late, and ran through a memory litany of some of the good times we had shared. This was early on, when he was still being completely cold and indifferent to me.

For some reason, most of the good memories seemed to involve sex in diverse places. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

When we got home, he rushed me into the bedroom and proceeded to knock my socks off, the first time he had shown ANY affection whatsoever since the whole thing started.

And then he immediately reverted to cold for a while yet.

It wasn't until after he ...almost... broke up with her after the first time they rutted that he became regularly affectionate with me, and returned to ILY's, etc. Then once he did, he would waffle between loving and insanely hateful.

Some ride!

I can guarantee you have piqued his interest.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />fabric softener<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

You may not have noticed yet but this is a CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC around here...so let's talk when and if the time comes....



I'll go ahead and say that MY THINKING was EXACTLY like YOURS and yes I allowed plenty of CAKE. Be prepared for dissenting views on this. I don't want this discussion to get you off course because you are doing SOOO WELL and this might be best left to when the time comes for you if ever. I answered because you were wondering...

Even if you don't go to the Xmas dinner, the support from your ILs is bound to have some effect on your H.



ACCEPT TODAY BUT NEVER GIVE UP HOPE FOR THE FUTURE!! When that thought comes to mind, reach for your Bible....Trust in the LORD with all your heart...HE is working this out for you...

Ahhh....caffeine. My warm, comforting, energizing friend.

Thanks for your input, mimi. That's what I was looking for. I agree it's not something that I need to worry about now--focus on continuing what I've been doing--but with all the banter and teasing, I thought I should know what the consensus is (of which there apparently is none).

The conclusion I'm coming to is that--in all things--we do what is right for us, given who we are and our unique situations. So I'll just cross that bridge when I come to it (assuming I get to the bridge), and concentrate on showering WH with affection, admiration, being fun and flirty and light and unpredictable. My confidence is growing by leaps and bounds. My prayer now is that this continues...setbacks suck. A lot hinges on getting that invite for Christmas Eve...if it doesn't come, I know I'll feel defeated. Yes, support from the ILs is great and all, but it doesn't give me face time w/ WH.

But anyway, my new friend Confidence told me to run to the store and get all the items I need to make MIL's traditional Christmas Eve casserole and dessert. Even though I don't have the green light yet, Confidence said that doesn't matter, because the green light IS forthcoming, dammit! Confidence also told me to buy myself a thong (or two?) so that I don't have to keep going commando, but close enough. (Confidence might have heard that from someone here....)

There's a store call Priscilla's down the street from the grocery store. I've never been in, but I think it's a chain...? From the outside, it looks to be a couple of steps down from Victoria's Secret (okay maybe a whole flight down). WH bought me my little blue friend there, and I know VS doesn't sell little blue friends. But VS would require a trip to the mall (perish the thought of going THERE today!), so maybe I'll check out Priscilla's and see if they have anything tasteful. I'll need something sexy to wear SOMEDAY, either with a FWH or someone better.

For God's sake, I'm only 38. I'm just hitting my prime, and this is the new and improved LilSis. This LilSis isn't afraid or embarrassed to go into a store that sells little blue friends and has black leather bustiers in the window. This LilSis has been to jail, been cheated on, and has a criminal record! (I should write a country song.) What's left to be afraid of? Who the he11 cares what anyone else thinks?

TTYL.
LS.

LS... You don't KNOW WH has not been screwing someone else... you assume it and are most likely right. I can go with that assumption.
What you really should not assume is the the ho is not screwing anyone else. I mean your H was getting it from at least two... why not her...
You will figure this all out... but I hope you do so ahead of time so you don;t get caught up in a moment should it arrive. Condoms... 6.75 for a 12 pack... I hope you get to use them all!
As far as Christmas Eve... great job.

The guys are STILL checking out this thread?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Thanks MEDC. Maybe Priscilla's sells condoms, too, so I don't have to get them at Meijers where I recognize all the checkout people since I'm there about every other day. (So I guess I'm not quite as brave as I was pretending.)

Yep... logic and reason needs to come from somewhere! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Truer words were never spoken. You do realize that you are taking your life in your own hands by posting that....

Mimi, wiping brow...

MEDC. We are most definitely IN AGREEMENT on this statement.

Happy Holidays to you.

I really admire your choice of foster-adoption.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(Mimi, whispering to be PC for the "boys")

My FWH hates thongs...but, of course, he is OCD about stuff like that..cleanliness, health issues and all...my reason for having judged him to be safe..like you say, "WE DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR US"....

You might think about getting the undies that he likes...

Brazilian bikinis anyone?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />..just keeping it LIGHT for Saturday morning...I'm getting into the Spirit...

thank you.

thongs... yuck!

the more boxer looking undies on a girl... I think they call them boy shorts... now that works... thongs just seem so 80-90's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thongs are GREAT on a very small percentage of women. 99.9% of the women who wear them look ridiculous.

Okay...I've never been the thong type either, but y'all told me to expand my comfort zone! Do I need to start a poll...the great thong/no thong debate of 2006.

I guess anything that shows a little lacy stuff above my low cut jeans when I bend over will do. He'll sure notice that they're not the white cotton bikinis I USED to wear. I had to get all new because the white cotton ones started to fall down when I went on the infidelity diet, and so I bought cute colorful ones to replace them. (Still cotton, though. I prefer natural fabrics...)

I was so happy to hear about your foster-adoption, MEDC. Truly the gift of a lifetime, in every way. I'm with mimi. Let's all get in the spirit today and rejoice!

"I guess anything that shows a little lacy stuff above my low cut jeans when I bend over will do"

LilSis - Sounds good. My neighbor washes her car in baggy jeans and a thong. She is short and weighs about 220, but all the neighborhood guys seem to watch her.

OMG, Sis....

We know one good thing that is coming out of this...getting you out of those WHITE COTTON BIKINIS....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

First of all, you can deal crack, too. Just try to make it the more potent, high quality, less impurity stuff (it's kinda funny, but I actually make crack at my job, only we call it benzoylmethylecgonine or BME).

Secondly, did you miss the part about where I haven't gotten any in FIVE MONTHS (and I'm only 26). I already CANNOT see clearly (probably because it makes you go blind, right). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Keep up the good work.

Hey. I didn't say BRIEFS.

Hey Jim:
You CRACK me up!

I know, Girl..but the WHITE COTTON... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You might find it FUN to check out VictoriaSecret.com..

They are having their Semi-annual sale...

There are lots more options in COTTON...

You BME me up, too. It's always good to be able to keep a sense of humor throughout all of this. You'll do just fine.

So should I wrap the coffeetable book on lighthouses that I got for WH in a gift box from Priscilla's?

With the conversation here going the way it was going, I was expecting silk pj bottoms for him (you keep the top to wear under the tree) and say in the card, "Looking forward to seeing you in these soon!"

Hey LilSis, hanky pankies are all the rage and they drive my DH crazy! They are also comfortable! click here for ho britches <img ...ns/grin.gif" alt="" />

cute panties Mel!

I have some of them there HANKIE panties but mine are not thongs...

Thanks, Mel...Good to know that I'm keeping up the pace with you...

Plus, I didn't know they are THE RAGE....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I was thinking that those HANKIE panties might really CONFUSE Mr. Pep..if left in his pocket....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's almost 4:30 here and still no word from ILs about tomorrow. I have all the stuff here to make what I would bring over, so I've decided that even if it's a no-go, I will still make everything and bring it over for them to enjoy, then leave. That can be my Christmas gift to them all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My taker doesn't have a say. Just me demonstrating my love, good faith, and joy of the season.

The hanky panties look comfy. I'd look for the non-thong variety, tho. I'm not so so big on the creepy crawlies myself. So I guess I don't REALLY have to go outside my comfort zone! Whew.

Nice, Mel.

I just got back from the store where I noticed a young, luscious looking girl. I swear, she had something on that looked like a pair of men's cotton underwear, a skimpy tank, and FM heels.

Good idea, LilSis.

B:



Shame on you... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Napoleon to Josephine, in a letter:

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> "I'll be arriving in Paris tomorrow evening. Don't wash." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Tsk tsk ... those French, so good at being naughty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Confidence needs a little boost this morning, folks.

I finally called FIL last night about 9:30. He didn't seem nearly as enthusiastic about my attendance at Christmas Eve as MIL had indicated (althought he did say he thought he was coming down with something so maybe he was just feeling crappy). He was sort of wishy-washy...said he had strongly suggested to WH that he and I work something out so that we can be together with the boys for at least a short time during Christmas. WH works a 12-hour shift on Christmas Day, and I'm going to my mom's, so it has to be Christmas Eve or not at all.

From my point of view, it should be FIL's call. If he thinks it's important that we spend time together--for whatever reason--then he should have me over as a full participant in the evening's activities (meal, fellowship, presents). To me it's as simple as that. I really don't understand why WH gets to dictate what happens in his parent's house. And frankly, to sort of leave this up in the air when I offered to prepare a meal is...well... rude. Apparently FIL believes that entire meals just magically appear on the table. Further, does it occur to him that if I am not to be with them, then I would like the opportunity to try to find somewhere else to spend the evening so that I'm not alone on Christmas Eve??

So anyway, I told FIL that either way, to please plan on me bringing over the meal. We talked a bit longer, and ended up leaving it that I would bring the meal over at about 5:00. I guess they will let me know then if I can actually participate in the "festivities."

Ouch.

After my conversation with FIL, I left a VM for WH, very cheery again, but telling him how nice it would be if we could spend Christmas Eve together with the boys--it would mean so much to them, and to me as well: that I missed him, loved him, and would like to celebrate Christ's birth with him and as a family. Maybe that was too much, but it is honest and heart-felt. I said all of this in a cheery enough tone...but it is a serious matter, so it's not as if it is something that can be said playfully.

I was a little concerned about how serious it was, so I called back a minute later and laughingly left a VM saying that--oops!--I had forgotten to tell him that I never got a chance to watch that movie the night before, so if he wanted to, I was just getting ready to put it in. "Could be fun!" I said. Click.

I have a call in to MIL on the premise that I need her recipe for her traditional peppermint ice cream dessert (I actually do need the recipe). Maybe she can fill in some of the blanks.

So...am I still doing okay? Confidence is sort of getting her a55 kicked by PMS and that it's Christmas, I really miss my H, I grieve for my boys, and I feel really alone. Some encouragement would be welcome, MBers.

BTW...no one ever answered my question. Should I wrap the book I got for WH in a gift box from Priscilla's? (See, the meds MUST be working if I can still have a teeny bit of sense of humor today.)

FYI: I wouldn't recommend Priscilla's for anyone except the above-mentioned young lady in the FM heels. Their selection of tasteful items is VERY VERY limited. However, I did manage to find a lovely white chemise. Very simple, lacy, flirty and by far the most understated thing in the store. (for all you guys who are lurking, "chemise" is sort of like a slip-style sort of thing) When the cashier asked if I'd like a gift box, the lightbulb went on...I'm sure I could put THAT to good use sometime! I would have paid extra for the gift box alone.

I did check out the clearance at the VS website...thank you for that head's up BTW!!! Not only do they have steals on some beautiful "nighties," but my favorite bra is on sale for 20 bucks!! And in cute COLORS (is that you cheering, mimi?). Given my tight timeline, I went to Kohls and couldn't find any hanky-pankys, but did get some pretty undies that will show some pretty pink lace when I bend over. And they are even cotton...(thus proving I CAN be sexy and not sacrifice my need for natural fibers on my tush).

Thanks, all, for letting me vent and share. Now I'm going to go read the Bible for a while, and focus on the wonderful gift of Christ's birth, the peace and joy of the season, and the promise of God's love.

Blessings everyone,
LilSis

Even if you don't spend a lot of time over there, make sure you at least make an appearance. When you do, you know how to act. Maybe he'll want you to stay. Remember, even if you do lose this battle, this is a war. You now have a strategy. You also have some big guns (children, years of history together, the financial hit and loss of children he will have to take if he does follow through with divorce, and your cute size 0 bod). Rome wasn't built in a day. You are doing the right thing, and you've seen some slight chinks in the opponents armor. I know it sucks right now, especially when there are special occasions that leave us feeling empty (my D-day was the week of our 3rd anniversary, how was that for timing), but think of all those years you will have to make it up when you win this war. The OW has got nothing on you. If you truly believe you can save your marriage, then you will. Your WH will notice that confidence. Keep up the good work, and Merry Christmas!

You are doing extremely well. Don't quit your efforts. However this Christmas turns out, you are leaving lasting memories. You may end up alone, but don't worry about it. You are in the process of exposing what the affair has done to your family, and not doing it in an ugly way. If you are NOT with your family at this wonderful time of year, your absense will be felt and remembered.

Stay the course. You are in the position that whatever happens, you will come out the winner. I know it is not going to be pleasant if you end up alone, but this is just one battle, and you hope to win the war.

Gosh, Jim, great minds think alike.....

Just a regular box, I think

save the "special box" for another time ... don't toss it out

IF it turns out you do not stay for festivities at FIL's tonight ... do NOT despair ... you will leave an impression of generosity and caring in your wake

OK hun?

AND ... if you get all emotional as you leave FIL and WH and the boys to their meal without you ... I think if your eyes moisten up with emotion ~~~> THAT IS A GOOD THING

just don't get angry or morose

but to show genuine EMOTION is a good thing

that too will leave a lasting impression that you are trying very hard to save your M ... despite your breaking heart ... and you can reference it in your Plan B letter if it comes to pass

Pep

Sweetie ... this is an excellent message written by Starfish earlier this year .... please read.


Betrayed Spouse! It is the FEAR......
03/29/06 01:21 PM


It is the fear that paralyzes you, sends blood rushing through your veins, sours your stomach, and interupts your sleep. It is the fear that gives away your power, your hope, and your forgiveness. It is fear that robs you of the active self and traps you in the role of patronizing enabler who will take them back at ANY cost...even if the price is too high. It is fear that keeps you from confronting and exposing. And fear that prevents you from enforcing your boundaries and having compassion for yourself.

Fear of abandonment.
Fear of rejection.
Fear of reaction....yours, theirs.
Fear of future...the unknown.
Fear of destitution and want.
Fear of failure.
Fear of losing.
Fear of loss.
Fear of solitude.
Fear of settling.
Fear of change.
Fear of lack of change.
Fear
Fear

Infidelity creates FEAR....and fear is crippling. Research shows us what we already know in our hearts....when we are fearful....we are unable to fire up the parts of our brains that "process" information on a logical, rational, spirtual level and create solutions that increase the odds for success in crises. When we are fearful....we don't use our neocortex....but instead, it is our limpic system which lights up our MRIs....our animal brains wired for "fight or flight".

There is no HOPE in our animal brains....because our indentity, our souls, our compassion....don't reside there. You are only capable of conflict or escape when you are there....so you must find a quiet place to deal with your fears so that you can confront, expose, do all the things that overcoming infidelity entails....all the things that happiness entails. You must value yourself as well as protect yourself, without fear of losing your WS or enforcing boundaries.....because if you don't....all your fears will be realized anyway.

MB is not designed to trap you in a marriage where your feelings are crushed and disrespected or the vows of marriage are meaningless. It's designed to help you overcome fear and give you hope that marriages CAN recover from infidelity....but you must be brave and be willing to risk losing your WS in order to regain trust, fidelity, security.

You must be willing to see beyond your pain and take logical and systematic steps to undermine the affair and increase the stability and security of your marriage. That takes courage above pain. It takes the peacefulness of knowing you are strong enough to lose a self indulgent and unrepentant spouse or recover with a flawed, but motivated one.

Don't let your fear take back a spouse who isn't ready to do the hard work recovery after infidelity entails. It is an invitation for misery.

If you don't believe you CAN survive without your WS....you cannot do what you must do to ensure success.

Stop being fearful of their threats...they are just excuses to leave or be selfish.

Stop being fearful of their reactions....their reactions arise from their guilt...not your boundaries.

Stop being fearful of taking a stand....it's the only way to gain respect or trust.

Stop being fearful of being alone.....until you can stand on your own and risk losing them, you will NEVER know if they remain with you by choice. And you will never know if you want them or you NEED them.

And if you need them....even if they return....you are in trouble chere.

I'm quoting Jim's post because I think it's says it ALL...

Repeat this to yourself TODAY...

Come back here and read this again...

What SAGE ADVICE from such a YOUNG MAN...Kudos to you, Jim...

I LOVE YOUR VMs to your WH...they are definitely registering with him..I HAVE NO DOUBT...

He now cannot deny to himself that you LOVE HIM..despite the OW's goal to convince him otherwise..that SHE is the ONLY ONE who cares....

As Jim implies, as long as you continue to FIGHT, there is a HIGH LIKELIHOOD that she will be the LOSER...

She is counting on you to GIVE UP..

That is why you have got to FIGHT THE FEAR....

Actually it does not matter that much about the undies..that's ICING ON THE CAKE... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What matters right now is your COMMITMENT and DEDICATION to this FIGHT...

Hang in there...

Thanks, everyone. I just had a wonderful talk with MIL. She was deeply disappointed that things weren't going as she had hoped. She was so looking forward to being with her sister's family and imagining HER family back here, all together. But as we talked, I told her how I was still planning to make the meal for them all, as a simple demonstration of my love for them all. I don't expect anything in return. I'm doing it in the spirit of Christmas, because I want to nurture and comfort the people I love....and I can do that by cooking and baking up a storm. It gives me joy. It is my gift to them all.

MIL was so grateful and so wonderful and we talked for a long time...you know it doesn't matter to me anymore that things aren't working out the way I had hoped. As you all said, at some level it will register with WH, but even if it doesn't, I have done this for myself. I like this person that I am--that I've become...someone who does something with no expectation. To give honestly, from the heart. It feels so different...I feel so different. Is it too much to think it's God's light that chases away the fear that exists in the darkness? By focusing on that light, by letting the light be in me, the fear goes away. (Can you tell I was reading the Bible this morning?)

Anyway...thank you so much...all of you...I will print out mimi's last post with Jim's quote, and stick it on my cabinet door today, to look at while I cook.

You saved the day. Thanks and Merry Christmas!
LS

Hoping that you are spending Christmas Eve with your family. Let us know how everything turned out.

Just returned from Christmas Eve dinner at ILs w/WH and FIL and the boys, then mass with the boys. So here's the latest installment of my life.

It was almost surreal. There we are, celebrating Christmas...just the five of us. No other cousins, brothers, sisters-in-law, no other female besides me, no MIL. I brought the entire meal with all of MIL's traditional Christmas Eve dishes. But there were none of the special touches that women bring: no tablecloth, no centerpiece, no candles, no wine, no coffee with dessert. WH and FIL have truly been "baching" it; they don't even have butter in the fridge. They bought a 3-foot prelit Charlie Brown tree that the boys decorated with paper ornaments just today. It was just so....barren and desolate.

When I arrived and unloaded the food, WH stayed in the living room. Finally, I went in and sat next to him, kissed him on the cheek and wished him a Merry Christmas. I was petting the dog (our dog, that I sent off to live with WH--at least SHE misses me!), and WH was clearly not in the mood to talk. I asked him if he'd like me to leave, and he said, "No, you may stay."

I thanked him with a bright smile. He still looked tense, and I asked if anything was wrong...he said he was tired. I put my hand on his knee and smiled at him, and he asked what I was doing. I asked back, "Putting my hand on your knee?" He replied, "No, what are you DOING?" The kids came in the room at that point, so I was saved from having to come up with any reverse babble (Orchid I am not). As the kids walked in, I just quickly said, "I'm just being me." and gave him a big ol' smile. (BTW, I wore my wedding band tonight...no diamond, just the band)

Based on a conversation w/ MIL late this afternoon, before I went over, I take it he meant the whole nicey, nice, suggestive stuff. MIL had spoken to WH to express her deep wish that we all be together. She didn't remember (or didn't want to repeat?) exactly what WH had said about his reluctance, but it had something to do with "intimacy." MIL assured WH that I had no expectation of anything.

The evening went on and we all played nicely. The meal was pleasant and the tone conversational. It was strange though, because for the last two years (probably more), I have seen this distance in WH's eyes that would always be so apparent at family gatherings. It was like he couldn't wait to get out of there, and I always felt so gyped...I could never fathom why he couldn't conjure up a little cheer, even for the sake of everyone else. He'd just be crabby and make everyone uncomfortable. I love family gatherings, even if some people can drive me nuts, that's sort of the beauty of family. Interestingly, he always seemed more at ease with my family. Unfortunately, the distance was still in his eyes, the fidgeting, the restlessness. At one point DS8 climbed in WH's lap, and WH just sat thre like a manequin with his arms out to the sides...no hug, no nuzzle, no affection. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

WH did seem to loosen up as the evening went on, however. A number of times I caught WH's eye and would smile softly. At one point, while we were sitting down to read the Christmas story, I caught his eye and mouthed, "love you." He winked back at me.

The "boys" got me a new digital camera. It is very nice, but I already have one...WH insisted that once I use this I'll know why I need a new one. It's a nice gesture. Certainly more than he's ever gotten me for Christmas in several years. And all I got him was the book...

I did inscribe the book I got him as described in an earlier post...something about the photos in the book bringing back happy memories and hoping we can make more. I also got him a Christmas card, in which I said something like:
God sent his son to us on Christmas Day to teach us about love and forgiveness. It has taken me a long time, but I have learned those lessons, and I wish nothing more than to share with you how much I have learned. I love you and I forgive you. Love always, me

It was written off the cuff, quickly, and probably could have been worded better, but as I was experiencing the holiday, I felt compelled to make some kind of significant gesture. Not for him, for me. And it's true...I have forgiven H. WH is another story...but H I will fight for, and I won't hold H accountable for WH's actions. For me, that's the only way that I can really do this...separate the two out. And it has taken me sooo long to really understand this, and I still struggle with it sometimes, but I have to believe it or none of this makes sense.

By the time we left, I could tell WH was ready for us to go. He was getting antsy. He hugged the boys and wished them a merry Christmas, and I began to get teary watching them. Just as we left, I asked him for a hug, and got one. I kissed his cheek and whispered ILY. As we walked out the door, C-LY-B. I'm sure he could see at that point that I was tearing up.

As the boys and I were walking out to the car, I started to really cry, but I sucked it up and got on with it. The boys and I went to midnight mass (which was at 10:00...???) and I didn't cry once during the service.

Long story short...no great successes, no great failures. It just WAS. I don't know how I exemplified myself tonight...again, I could have been his sister, and I didn't really do anything to break out of that mold. Somehow Christmas Eve, at the ILs, with the kids around doesn't seem the appropriate time to do much besides the smiles, eye contact, admiring his shirt, the brownies he made...

What's the consensus on saying ILY?

I think I'm going to cry now, though; it's 1 a.m. and I have a mountain of dishes to wash and Santa hasn't arrived yet. As a matter of fact, Santa's elf who does all the wrapping hasn't even started, and Santa has to go to the basement to find the stockings.

Merry Christmas, every one!

WOOHOO girl, good on you.

"I thanked him with a bright smile. He still looked tense, and I asked if anything was wrong...he said he was tired. I put my hand on his knee and smiled at him, and he asked what I was doing. I asked back, "Putting my hand on your knee?" He replied, "No, what are you DOING?"

Believer here- So you have fired up the burners. The OW doesn't have a chance.

You're kidding, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let's list ones you mentioned...I'm SURE there were more...

"There we are, celebrating Christmas...just the five of us."

"Finally, I went in and sat next to him, kissed him on the cheek and wished him a Merry Christmas." ( There's ways he could have prevented this from happening..how about, standing up amd walking into another room?..saying, "Don't touch me!"..mine even did that..a YUCK memory..)

"I asked him if he'd like me to leave, and he said, "No, you may stay." (MAJOR..MAJOR...YOU ARE WINNING ALL OF YOUR BATTLES, SIS!!!)

"I put my hand on his knee and smiled at him, and he asked what I was doing." (Hand on knee..a MAJOR TURNON for a lot of men..an erogenous zone.. his comment should be translated to mean..."YOU ARE BLOWING MY MIND and CONFUSING ME..SO EXPLAIN THIS BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A CLUE..I THOUGHT I WAS OVER YOU..BUT I AM NOT..HELP ME, SIS"...tee hee)

"As the kids walked in, I just quickly said, "I'm just being me." and gave him a big ol' smile." (PERFECT MEMORY FOR HIM...He will think..THAT WAS SIS?..WHAT AM I DOING HERE WITH THIS TRASH?)

"WH did seem to loosen up as the evening went on, however. A number of times I caught WH's eye and would smile softly. At one point, while we were sitting down to read the Christmas story, I caught his eye and mouthed, "love you." He winked back at me." (YOU SHOT A CANNON..CATCHING HIS EYE...HE WINKING BACK AT YOU...OH MY!!!!)

"Unfortunately, the distance was still in his eyes, the fidgeting, the restlessness. " (Just because you are doing sooo fantastically, don't think that you can be a MIRACLE WORKER.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Unfortunately, he still remains a WS..but you are DEFINITELY HAVING AN INFLUENCE...)

"BTW, I wore my wedding band tonight...no diamond, just the band)"( And why have you taken your rings off? You are still married, right?)

"Just as we left, I asked him for a hug, and got one. I kissed his cheek and whispered ILY. As we walked out the door, C-LY-B. I'm sure he could see at that point that I was tearing up." (EVERY SINGLE LAST BIT OF THIS PARAGRAPH WAS PERFECT..PERFECT)

I've got to go...

But want to say that this is the BEST PLAN A that I have seen in a mighty long time....You are a testimony to its EFFECTIVENESS..

Blessimgs to you and your family, Sis...

As you well know, the LORD IS WITH YOU AND IS WORKING IT OUT FOR YOU...

As B says, my prediction is that the OW you were SOOO concerned about doesn't stand a chance against your PERSONAL POWER..THE POWER OF LOVE...


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And you are learning something vital - how to separate the WS from the spouse you love. It is very difficult.

"WH did seem to loosen up as the evening went on, however. A number of times I caught WH's eye and would smile softly. At one point, while we were sitting down to read the Christmas story, I caught his eye and mouthed, "love you." He winked back at me." (YOU SHOT A CANNON..CATCHING HIS EYE...HE WINKING BACK AT YOU...OH MY!!!!)


That WAS my H...poking through. I recognized him right away, it was so familiar. Thank you, mimi and believer. I was lacking a valuable perspective that you provided. I still have yesterday's post stuck up in the kitchen, and I need to read it again with that perspective. This IS a war, and it will be won one battle at a time. Maybe I should think of this as prolonged guerilla warfare, instead of like that first war with Iraq back in the early 90s when it was over in a week (remember?). Keep chipping away, right?

I spoke to WH a couple of times today, re: technical questions about DS11's new ipod. I took the opportunity to thank him again for the camera, how generous it was, and told him I would use it today at my mom's. Also, VERY first thing in the morning, the boys and I called his cell and left a VM, the three of us shouting, "Merry Christmas! We love you!" Click.

Yeah, I think you are right. It WAS a success! And he'll be eating my delicious leftovers for at least a a couple of days...so continued positive reminders. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Believer, I believe it is easier for me to separate WH from H because of something I spoke of earlier...we are separated, so I can arm myself for each interaction. Guerilla style; hit and run, go home and lick wounds, prepare for next interaction. I don't have to sustain it day in and day out as some BSs do. One of the most important ways I arm myself is to really psych myself up...I can do this, I can do this (said it to myself in the car yesterday when I arrived at ILs).

And from the sounds of it, when I compare to others, he's a softy. Doesn't deliberately hurt me with words (although he used to, back when I was LBing...duh)

Gotta go. I was supposed to leave for my mom's earlier, but given that I only had about three hours sleep, I fell asleep watching the kids play with their new gadgets, curled up under a nice fleecy blanket LilSisSis gave me. I have such great, wonderful friends and supporters...including all of you here. I believe you are all angels; God's way of answering my desperate prayers. I have repeatedly thanked Him for that.

God bless, rejoice and be glad!

Don't think repetitively stating that "I love you" is appropriate. He already knows this... Say it once and then let your action speak for themselves.

It does appeart that there is a little crack in the armor but stay alert.

I used to be able to just look into my husband's eyes, and without him saying anything, know if it was my husband or the WH. The WH had hard, cold, empty eyes.

"Don't think repetitively stating that "I love you" is appropriate. He already knows this... Say it once and then let your action speak for themselves."

Good point. Wondered about that. Actions speak louder than words, but I'll say it when/if it feels appropriate (like last night by the fire/Christmas story...so familar...it felt right)

"I used to be able to just look into my husband's eyes, and without him saying anything, know if it was my husband or the WH. The WH had hard, cold, empty eyes."

Good...so I'm not just imagining things!

Orchid: .....and you said you don't reverse babble? You certainly can. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> U did.



Orchid: Now this is important. Keep watching those eyes. That's usually where you can spot your H trying to peek out. He really wants to escape from the alien holding him hostage. My WS had the same cold, empty eyes. After a while it was easier to send him back out and remind him to take his cold empty eyes and heart (or lack thereof) with him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: U R not imagining things and you did a good job.

take care,
L.

Wow! This is terrific!

You know, Midway was just a tiny island, but it was a turning point in the whole war.

Many things you do will appear insignificant until you can see them in hindsight.

Sis,

You're doing a tremendous execution of Plan A. I'm so proud of you when I read how well things went last night. You're one very courageous loving woman.

This interaction especially jumped out at me:


Seems he is "recognizing" your consistency of Plan A and its making an emotional imprint upon him. He still questions it tho and that's why the comment "No, what are you DOING?". Its familiar to him, but he still doesn't trust it fully.

Stay this course, no lovebusters for the remainder of your Plan A which will leave the brightest light path back to the marriage.

God Bless and Merry Christmas!
Jo

Good luck with the ipod. I just downloaded by first song. Started doing it 4 hours ago. I think there are probably another couple million people doing it today.

"What are you doing?"

Translation:
"Why are you making me feel so uncomfortable by reminding me of our love and our life together? Why can't you be more like I need to convince myself that you are? Why do you have to be so NICE?"

Even deeper translation:
"This makes me really uncomfortable because it reminds me that I want you, but I want her too, and I don't want to have to choose. I can't commit to you, but I can't leave you behind, either. So stop touching me, because you're confusing me!"

Keep right on confusing that man, LilSis!!!!!!!!!!

I respectfully yet strongly disagree with this.

Your WH felt that you didn't love him..opening the door for the affair.

This was a BIGGY in my situation. The OW's main goal was to convince my H that he was CORRECT that I did not love him...She HATED it the two times that I called her just to say: "I LOVE MY HUSBAND"....

PLAN A involved me taking every opportunity possible to convince him that I did and that's why I was doing the PLAN A..the ANSWER to his question...

"What are you doing?"..Showing you how much I love you...

PLAN A is about FILLING UP THAT LOVE BANK...

There is no problem, IMO, telling your H that you love him...especially if ADMIRATION and AFFECTION are his primary ENs..You meet both needs at once when you say ILY...

My H who LOVES AFFECTION..continues to like for me to SAY it and of course he knows that I love him...

REMEMBER PLAN A IS ABOUT GIVE, GIVE, GIVE..no holding back...

Mimi - Threadjack here. I've been trying to find the post that Takola made called something like "the reflection in your eyes." It was a great post about admiration, and how you can BET that the OW is giving the WS lots of admiration. At the time, I thought she was completely crazy - frankly, there was NOTHING to admire about my ex during his affair.

But now I realize that Takola was right. Do you remember that thread?

yay!!! Two more songs downloaded from itunes.

Another update...guess I didn't scare him off w/ all the ILY...

Just as we were heading out of town to mom's, I packed up a box of Christmas cookies for WH and FIL. I meant to bring it last night but got lost in the shuffle (not the ipod variety). The plan was to swing by quickly and drop them off...if FIL wasn't home, just leave them on the back porch.

Turn the corner and guess who's cruiser is parked at ILs? Must be stopping off to have some lunch. (or perhaps God was working something here, giving me a sign) So I pull up to the end of the driveway and ask DS11 to run into the house and drop the cookies off, and as long as Dad's there, can you ask him to stop by the house sometime and let the kitty in? The boys and I are staying at mom's for the night; the kitty escaping when we were already REALLY late was a happy accident that I thought I could use to my advantage.

DS11 runs in. Couple of minutes later he runs out, and WH is following! Wow! I'm thinking to myself...okay, I was worrying that I overdid the ILYs, but here he is, wandering out to actually SEE me. If I were scary and evil, he would jus stay in the house, right? So he walks up to the car (I'm just idling there, pulled up) Course, I'm smiling...I was delighted and quite surprised to see him!

WH: I gave DS11 some extra clothes that they left here. Do you want those in the trunk? (I drive a Vibe, so there is no trunk, you can toss stuff over the back seat and it lands in the "trunk."
LS: No, that's okay.
WH: When was the last time you had the oil changed in this car?
LS: (looking at the little sticker in the winder) Well, it doesn't have to be done again until Jan. 24 so I guess we're good.
WH: Okay, just checking. You know this car has a little plug in it under the hood so that you can plug it in and it will be warm in the morning. (even though we live in MI, it has only gotten very far below freezing something like twice all winter)
LS: I think the plug in the garage isn't working. The little bird bath defroster thing isn't working, it stays frozen.
WH: Well, it's on the same circuit as the computer...maybe the GFI in the garage one needs to be reset.
LS: Oh, okay. I'll do that.
WH: You know at the car wash across from Wendy's they have free vacuums.
LS: (with a false surprised/schocked look) Are you saying the car's a mess (it is)
WH: No, I'm just saying your--our kids are slobs. (Did ya get that? Did ya get that?)
LS: I know, it's pretty gross. Did DS11 tell you about the kitty?
WH: Yeah, that's no problem. Is the door unlocked?
LS: Uhh, no, I locked it. Do you want my key (he does not carry his own keys when on duty...a fact I became quite cognizant of when in labor for the first time)
WH: I'll either stop by tonight or use my dad's set of keys.
LS: Okay, otherwise, the cats are fine. I gave them a ton of food.
WH: Okay, I'll take care of it. Drive carefully.
LS: Thanks, I will! C-LY-B! (as I drive off with a smile)
WH smiles and waves as he turns back to the house.

Whaddya think??

I'm thinking I wish I had been more prepared. I'm thinking I'm going to call him tonight and leave a VM saying, "It was such a pleasant surprise to see you today. I'd forgotten how handsome you look in your uniform. Thanks for takng care of Kitty. If you wouldn't mind, I forgot to water the tree before I left...maybe you could give it some water?" (he was always anal about watering the tree)

Gotta go EAT again. Can someone please roll me out of here?

I'll check back here later.

LS

B: we have a mac, but an older one with a non-current version of itunes...gotta upgrade the operating system.

DS11 is soooooo bummed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

OMG!!!!

You are the MB PLAN A ..POSTER WOMAN!!!

YOU HAVE THE POWER!!!

I like all the stuff about him in his uniform..PERFECT..but you NEED HIS HELP in getting the OIL CHANGED!!

PLUS, CLEAN UP THE CAR and let him SEE IT!!!

Will result in you being able to sincerely say... "THANK YOU..THANK YOU..THANK YOU"..LOADS OF ADMIRATION..

Perfect.. encouraging him to go into HIS HOUSE...

Don't you just love MARRIAGEBUILDERS? Works doesn't it????


Love it! Love it! Love it!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You did good, hon.

Now, about the above. I believe not only is he wanting to talk with you, but more importantly he's looking for a way to be your hero and take care of you. He wants you to need him and trying to find his value in that respect.

Next time the opportunity presents itself, allow him to take care of the things he brings up needing done. He NEEDS to be needed. And then appreciated for the value he brings to you and the marriage.

For example, instead of this response: "LS: Oh, okay. I'll do that."

Perhaps respond next time with (para-phrased): "Gosh, do you think you can do that for me? I'm lost when it comes to this stuff. You've always been the expert."

You're doing great, Sis. He's coming around hon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jo

Exactly....

Leave this on the VM..ASAP.."On second thought, about the oil change...

Resilient is expressing my opinion exactly...

"okay, I'll do that???" Do we have to beat you about the head, girl!!? This will not do! These were CUES, offers to do what guys like to do: TAKE CARE OF YOU!



2.

Dang! All these little veiled offers to HELP YOU and you missed them!! LILSIS, remember, I told you to LOOK FOR opportunities like this to make him feel NEEDED??? Instead of saying "ok, I will get that done," respond like Mimi and Resilient suggested!

Stop being so darn hyper competent and let him do some of this stuff so he will feel needed! Oil SHMOIL!! You don't know oil from an igloo! Let him take the car in and get the oil changed! I bet he even knows what TYPE of oil.

You have his ATTENTION, LilSis, so now bring him in and ALLOW him to TAKE CARE OF YOU. That is what he wants so take him up on his offer!

WH thinking: "I can't possibly think of breaking up with the OW because she NEEDS ME AND YOU DON'T. You can make it without me and she can't"....

Isn't that YUCKY???

Thats the thinking of a man ADDICTED ON ADMIRATION CRACK!!!

Seriously, I heard my FWH literally say to me:

"I THOUGHT YOU DIDN'T NEED ME"

Another TJ

Threadjack here. I've been trying to find the post that Takola made called something like "the reflection in your eyes." It was a great post about admiration, and how you can BET that the OW is giving the WS lots of admiration. At the time, I thought she was completely crazy - frankly, there was NOTHING to admire about my ex during his affair.

But now I realize that Takola was right. Do you remember that thread?

So sorry, Believer.

I haven't read Takola's post.

But I certainly agree that the OW is giving TONS of ADMIRATION...it's the DRUG....

Thanks Mimi. One of these days, I will find it. I tried the search, and nothing. Takola posts on the other site - save your marriage or whatever. Maybe it is there.

Anyway it was a good post, explaining how there are affairs because of the way an affair partner makes you feel about yourself.

But I think that LilSis is getting it.

Okay, okay, ladies. I'm trying...thank God I have you all to set me straight. I did leave a VM asking him to water the tree for me...does that redeem me in your eyes just a little? I TOLD you I wasn't prepared for this one...I need to plan and have responses ready in my mind. This one took me by surprise, and I'm not good enough at this yet to do it on the fly. One lesson at a time...got the suggestive thing down, gotta work on the helpless thing. Got it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The door is still totally open, though. "Sorry I was in such a rush the other day...we were late for my mom's." I can ask him to come an show me how the plug thing works that lets the car warm up. Also, there's one of those little divits in the windshield where a rock hit it and I remember last time that happened he had someone fix it so it didn't crack. Goodness, I just don't remember the details on that...

Before he comes to do that, I CAN go clean out the car. I remember once he told me that he always felt so good when he would clean the minivan (which I USED to drive, until I found out...ewwwww....now I call it the f*ckwagon), he would say, "It makes me feel so good to know I've gotten the van all clean for my wife." I DIDN'T GET IT!!! mental headslap...

So...maybe I should give HIM the opportunity to clean the Vibe??? I could do the general vacuuming so I don't look like a slug, but I may need his help with the floor mats, etc. He was always very picky...had to clean out every nook and crany. (Weird, because he could walk over piles of dirty clothes and not bat an eye.) Could ask him to check the tires, etc. Hmmmm...I noticed on the way to mom's that maybe it's pulling a little to the left. Do you think it needs an alignment, honey?

gotta go

We now deem you to be TOTALY HELPLESS...

You can't do a thing...

Definitely ask him to clean the car...

You REMEMBER the GREAT JOB that he did before...

Ask him to DO ANYTHING and EVERYTHING..for you... that you can think of...not all in ONE day, of course.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't ask him to show you how to do anything. If you know how, you won't need him....

THIS IS ALL GOOD...

You do need your H....you know, not the WH... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are doing fine. This stuff takes time. But it sounds promising.

Now lady - CLEAN OUT THAT CAR. JUST DO IT.

Tell your son not to be disappointed. Even if you had the right computer stuff, itunes was CRAZY today. My son's bought one for me. Our whole Christmas was taken over. Son #1 started out early - he wanted me to have the music. A few times, I interrupted him and told him we could wait till later, but no, it had to be done. So, at the end of the day, I have 2 songs, and I'm very satisfied.

No, B...

Sis is supposed to ask her WH to clean out the car FOR HER...

You are SOOO going to enjoy your IPOD. Do you like to listen to Books on Tape? Check out AUDIBLE.com...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sis,

You are clearly a self sufficient competent woman. BUT, from here forward you start making a mental list of the things you will no longer do-your-self but instead will NEED your husband to do for you.

He owns meeting those needs for you, and you own thanking and admiring him for doing them so damn well -- to the degree no one else on this earth could.

New "need meeting" marriage dynamics to learn and embrace, Sis. You're well on your way.

Jo

Hmmm, Mimi - I disagree. SHE needs to clean out the car. On the other things she can feign ignorance - the GFI, oil, etc.

I love my ipod already. I'm CRAZY about music. I have a thousand CD's, and very eclectic tastes. Love Big Band, Reggae, Rock, Jazz, Country, Latino music (including Cumbia, Marimba, etc.) My first downloaded songs were Zapoteco music, kind of like Latino, but sung in Zapotec.

Have to work tomorrow, but hoping to download some more.

believer, did you see her comments above? HE is the PRO car cleaner! It used to make him FEEL GOOD to clean up her car for her. She needs to allow him to do this and show her appreciation. He needs to feel NEEDED again!

Dang those Southern gals. Why try to compete with the best?

We westcoasters haven't evolved to all of this GIRLY stuff.

Minor T/J

"I'm CRAZY about music."

Me too, B.

You should love this website for picking out playlists for your Ipod.

http://www.fiql.com/

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Huh? Wait just a dang minute there, B.

We Yanks are wayyyyyy evolved.

We typify GIRLIE stuff, R-E-M-E-M-B-E-R?

Jo

No, we are self-reliant, smart, etc, etc.

But seriously, I've noticed a big difference in the way they treat their men.

And Sis...

Don't forget the BREADCRUMBS...

He's trying to find his way back home...and is literally asking for YOUR HELP...

Isn't it so wonderful to know that YOU ARE THE ONE WHO REALLY HAS THE POWER....and NOT HER...

..CLAWS IN DEEP..MY [censored]... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Last TJ, promise.

Here in the Great Pac NW we treat our men like kings, and they reciprocate by treating us like queens.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm thinking maybe we could do it together...I could have all the car cleaning stuff out when he comes over to show me the car warming up trick/check the GFI.

"I was just getting ready to clean out the inside of the car like you suggested. Wanna give me a hand? You are right...it's really bad, isn't it? I always liked how nice and clean you'd get it for me...it's such a mess now, not even close to how nice you'd keep it." That way I throw in the affirmation/admiration bit, but still don't come across as completely helpless (he knows better than to think I can't figure out how to vacuum the crumbs off the seat), but gives him the chance to shine and do what used to make him feel good. But when it comes down to it, I could just sit back, watch him and keep him company while he does all the work. Too bad it's December or my t-shirt could accidently get wet.

That a good compromise?

I did tell him in the VM tonight how handsome he looked in his uniform today and what a pleasant, unexpected surprise it was to see him. Several more weeks of this and he'll begin to realize that it is true change, not just a trap to snare him back. Then he'll really have something to think about when Plan B starts. Target day for implementation of Plan B...Feb. 14. My birthday is Feb. 15. Can we make it? Yes, we can!

I've decided that the OW doesn't exist. She's too painful to think about, and when I do, the ugly movies start, starring WH.

I have tons of music on iTunes already, and it works fine on my older model shuffle, but it's the new nano that requires the newer version iTunes. I will check out Audible. Books on tape would be great to listen to while engage in my new hobby, crocheting. (gotta multi-task)

Thanks, all!
LilSis

Let's contiue to TJ since Sis in not around... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

B...also check out..www.pandora.com..helps you discover new music that you might like...

You silly yankee gals can't even fix yore hair right!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Hi Sis..excuse me, you're back..you and I tend to post at the same time.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"...and the Northern girls with the way they kiss, they keep their boyfriends warm at night...."

iPods + regionalism = bad music

but I just had to get in my licks for the upper midwest

LilSis - I have to bow out of this one. It is way over my head.

whoops! that last post of mine was for Resilient!! lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Come to think of it B, something I have noticed about them Southern bells thats so different from us Yanks is they're so jelly of us. <shrugs>

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

B-the only reason it might be "over your head" is because Mel's hair is so BIG that it adds a few inches

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have to work tomorrow, too..YUCK

Promised myself that I won't do this again next year...

I have one word for you, Missy: NO AQUANET=FLAT HEAD! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

<SNORT>! You so RAWK!

Mel's serve.

**snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That carpetbagger STOLE MY LINE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Some of them can't count either.

Course that could be a symptom of BSHCCS [Big Southern Hair Can't Count Syndrome].

And the kicker---------

"""""""Wish they all could be CALIFORNIA GIRLS!!!!!""""""""

Where the women don't need BIG HAIR and AquaNet is against the law!

Back to the point - does a woman have to be completely HELPLESS to hold on to her man?

but our hair shore looks purty! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So how do I rate in this discussion?

Some of us Southern girls have short hair...

Maybe only Texans have BIG HAIR...

What is Aquanet, anyways???? Do they sell it at Walmart?

I don't believe so!

Yeah, but California girls do need big boobs, fake tans, and blonde hair. (sorry, but we're playing dirty, here, and it's all in fun, right?) Ahh...Michigan: fresh water, four seasons, no tornadoes, hurricanes, wild fires, earthquakes...just a blizzard or two once a year, no biggie. Besides, I know I brought it up, but have you SEEN the Beach Boys lately? I don't think I'd put much faith in any opinions that they voiced 30 years ago...

Anyway...any commentary on my TOPIC?? Not that rooting for the home team isn't fun and all...:)

And what exactly is wrong with big boobs, fake tans, and dirty blonde hair?

I think the happy medium is as I suggested..."I'm going to do xyz, could you possibly help me since I've never done it before. I could really use your help/knowledge/expertise." Shows that I'm not a lazy slacker who needs WH to do EVERYTHING for me; that I am willing to learn and be appreciative of what he does for me...ESPECIALLY if I end up just sitting by and appreciating him while he doing it; keeping him company, thanking him, admiring him.

Most important, it's consistent with the ME that he knows. If I suddenly turned into a complete idiot about the most mundane things like how to reset a GFI...well, he just wouldn't buy it and might end up feeling manipulated...like the WHOLE thing is an act. There needs to be an element of sincerity in everything I ask of him, otherwise I essentially AM manipuating him, which isn't true to myself, and he'd see through it. That's too risky. One of my trump cards over OW is that I am completely honest and always have been. If I compromise that, I forfeit that trump card.

Get what I'm saying?

Ahem - all kidding aside, you are doing extremely well. Give yourself a big pat on the back.

You won't think that all of this is getting through to your husband. But I think it is fairly obvious to all of us here that it is.

Hang in there and have patience. I don't think it is going to go on too much longer.

You know, Sis, why couldn't you allow HIM to do the things he is good at and leave it at that? Asking him to teach you how to do it clearly implies that you are seeking to independently do it yourself, rather than ALLOW him to do something FOR YOU. He already knows that you are hyper competent and don't need him. Why not allow him to do something FOR YOU that he is good at? He wants to do something FOR YOU. Not teach you how to do it all on your OWN. It is not manipulating him to allow him to do something he is GOOD AT and appreciate and ADMIRE him for it. Men like to FEEL NEEDED.

I'll admit it. Just jelly.

A fake tan in Dec. in MI stands out like a sore thumb so we're all pasty, and I require highlights to maintain dirty blonde streaks in my brown hair. No comment on the boobs, so I guess you can figure it out.

...and you were trying to get us back on topic...

Hey Sis,
I have not posted on this thread, but I just finished reading all of it.

I think you are doing an awesome job. Several times I have even gotten teary eyed- and not just when somoene was unkind about big Texas hair as I can give Mel a run for her money on that one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, you are doing just great. About page 4 I sent an email to in_pain encouraging her to read this thread.

I just wanted to send you some Kudos. I'm praying for you and your marriage.

Keep up the good fight.

I think I understand what you're saying, Sis. You want to be YOU, just a better YOU via Plan A. And YOU is not a helpless puppy.

But something tells me during your marriage years you grew into a role where you're doing far more than your share, if only because someone had to make sure it got done.

Things like making sure the oil gets changed. Coordinating, if not performing, a good number of the tasks that your husband formerly performed or owned.

I could be entirely all wet in my theory above, just guessing. Am I off the mark?

Jo

The reason why we've been going this route is to help address the particular ENs of Sis' H..whatever HE particularly finds to be ATTRACTIVE...

He seems to have a NEED to be NEEDED by her...

Independent Behavior is considered to be a LBer..Perhaps she went too far in this direction...

You know what, Mel? You've got a good head under all that hair. (okay, okay, UNCLE!!)

You are right. Why not give this a try? Plan Aing in the first place didn't feel "right," but it's the only thing that's gotten me anywhere. The suggestive stuff wasn't intuitive, but it clearly made him do a double take. I probably still wouldn't believe any of this was doing anything, except for the encouragement and insights from you all (or y'all for the southern ladies).

It sure doesn't hurt to ASK for him to do something for me, does it? I do not have to PRETEND I AM helpless, I just WANT HELP. Bat a few eyelashes, offer to bake him a batch of cookies or pot of soup in return. GOTTA believe that OW did the EXACT SAME THING beginning about three years ago now. A few months later, she had reeled him in and hooked him good.

So am I getting the distinction here:
asking for help=good
pretending to be helpless=bad
I think that distinction is what's been so elusive to me.

More philosophically, what's interesting is that one of my most important areas of personal growth in all of this has been that I am no longer afraid to ask for help...that I am a more compassinate, open person because I have NEEDED to ask for help, and have accepted it from others. I do not have to be Superwoman.

Nighty night, all. I'm at mom's and being forced off the computer.
LS

High Five Mel! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

asking for help=good
pretending to be helpless=bad
I think that distinction is what's been so elusive to me


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

you are one smart Plan A-er
which is why you will get tons of attention on MB ... you listen, you take it all in, then you process to make it work for you

what a breath of fresh air !!!!

Pep

Just wondering, Sis...

Has it been an issue to you for your H to do things for you?

Are you concerned about appearing lazy?

It just seems like you are somewhat anxious about this..because we haven't suggested for you to not be able to do EVERYTHING...

But there is a need for him to FEEL MANLY..to do things for you that a MAN does for his WOMAN...



Don't take this as criticism because I think you are doing EXCELLENT..but again with the MINDSET...

If you stay too true to yourself, you are not CHANGING...

You can SINCERELY CHANGE....CHANGE with a CAPITOL C will FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE TO YOU...You will feel like you are not being yourself because you are DIFFERENT...

You have to BELIEVE in the CHANGES and the NECESSITY for you to MAKE these CHANGES...

Do you believe in the need for you to change in these areas..to become more open to relying on your H to help you..

The key is for you TWO to work as a TEAM..not as SELF-SUFFICIENT INDIVIDUALS..you relying on him for HELP on what HE is good at doing..and HE relying on YOU for HELP...

Although the OW is NOT COMPLETELY HONEST..SHE IS MEETING HIS NEEDS...and he experiences her as being sincere....

ETA: Mel said much of this in her own way..in her post..I hadn't read Mel's post beforehand...

I think this is key with you and me and in our marriages.

I thought BEING SUPERWOMAN was a good thing that my H found to be ATTRACTIVE...

What he found ATTRACTIVE and finds ATTRACTIVE are the parts of me that led him to fall in love with me 30 plus years ago..when I was 18 and did not have the HIGH MANAGEMENT skills I have now...

So your H does want YOU as I said before..the YOU that made him feel like a MAN..the YOU that made him want to be YOUR HUSBAND..the YOU that made him want to take care of you..the MAN who would be willing to lay down his life for you..to DIE to protect you and his family.....yes, to DIE for you...it's anthropological..it's how God created man..Your H wants to FEEL LIKE A MAN and treat you like a WOMAN...there is nothing BAD or WRONG about that....

I made the mistake and... maybe you did, too..of not recognizing the value of MYSELF as a WOMAN to MY MAN...

I gave more priority to other less essential and insignificant aspects of who I was to him...

I forgot the BASICS...all he wanted was the BASICS...and not such a SUPERWOMAN...

Make sense?

mimi:
I think I get exactly what you are saying. I think that's where my good/bad analogy comes in. I just needed to figure out how to make what I need to do to save my marriage (ask for help, accept help) fit with who I am (a competent woman).

I think I've JUST had that sort of a-ha moment realizing this whole experience has taught me just that. I am not an island. I can't control everything. I do not know everything. I can't take care of everyone...even myself, sometimes. I can ask for help, and still be loved and appreciated. I don't earn love and appreciation by being everything to everyone. People love me, flaws and all.

In turn, I also realize that trying to control everything and know everything and take care of everyone and never make a mistake is one of the issues that stressed our M. Further, the ability to let go, to ask for help, to have faith IS very much a part of the new, improved LilSis.

That said, and now that I'm putting all those pieces together, then it becomes clear to me that being vulnerable, needing help, making mistakes--heck, being HUMAN??--is EXACTLY what I need to show WH. I am a real human, capable of REAL love. It's all just about honesty...no more artifice, no more pretending that I've got everything under control. He didn't want that, never wanted that!! He wanted me to be more easygoing, less anal about the house being clean, less rigid about life.

So....why should I worry about appearing "lazy"--that word is OLD LilSis talking. New LilSis would say, "Hey, can you help me out? I love you and appreciate you and I need you. Just you. Heck yeah, I can do it on my own, but you can do it better, and I love for you to do it for me. If you want, I'll hang out and keep you company while you do it, or I'll make you some cookies in return, but you know, I'm darn tired of keeping all these balls up in the air, so I'm just going to let go."

That's a revelation for me...that's CHANGE.

This was the same dilemma that we had on the whole suggestive, sexualized behavior thingie if you recall...I needed to realize that a change in BEHAVIOR does not change the essential ME. Once I HAD that, I could think of all kinds of ways to incorporate that into who I am and how I present myself to WH. Now that I GET this, I think I can do the same...but really, it is the SAME issue.

It's just what we ask of WSs...the proof is in the pudding. If I can't walk the walk, it's just talk. My BEHAVIOR needs to demonstrate my new growth and understanding.

Wow. Insight at 12:30 a.m. How am I going to get to sleep now?

LilSis

Just read your previous post. YES! When we met, I was much more laid back, easy-going, etc. Life, kids, work, dad's illness, house...all took a toll and I started to micromanage and take over everything without regard to WH's role. And I thought that made me more--appealing, attractive, necessary maybe? UGH!!

Really, I think felt I needed to earn his love, when I didn't. I had it. But I didn't think I was worthy unless I juggled more and more balls.

The issue about the competent wife is just what lousygolfer described a few days ago...exactly.

***CRUD, JUST REALIZED I POSTED UNDER Mr.W's NAME...IT'S REALLY ME, Mrs.W...OOPS, SORRY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ***



HEY...I have to step in here and speak for us Southern chicks, that find themselves "servin' time" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> in Michigan...LOVE, LOVE, LOVE fake tans, big boobs, and in my case, honey blonde hair...And hey, sticking out like a sore thumb is what we big busted, blondes do best anyway...might as well work it with a tan too!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, LilSis, just wanted to jump on here and let you know what a stellar job that you are doing...Also to mention that if should ever need local help, just give Mr. W and I a shout...I'm not sure what part of Michigan that you are in, but we are in the 'burbs of Detroit-Oakland County...You are a wonderful role model here Sis...We are very much in your corner...The ladies here advising you are my very FAVES and the very BEST, IMO!!! God Bless You...

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

P.S. Email us anytime should you need any off board help! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

EXACTLY!!!

He wants the WOMAN that he fell in love with...and you will FEEL HAPPY to find her again, too.

You will not seem INSINCERE..as you fear..if you give in to becoming her again...

On a personal level, you will feel like a load has been lifted off of your shoulders...


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LilSis, glad you are having such success. Just please be careful not to feel crushed if/when your WH does something to sabotage you, as he surely will. Enjoy the success you are having but please protect yourself emotionally against the inevitable defeats and setbacks. They are all part of the roller coaster.

As an aside on the "being needed" thing: Y'all have pointed out that WS often say "I didn't think you needed me," yet I have felt for years that my WH does not need *me* at all - certainly not when his girls from work are around and barely at any other time.

I am the one who feels completely and totally unnecessary in his life. Do you think it is an attribute of WS that *they* stop needing the BS?
Mulan

Yes...because the OP is meeting MOST if not all of the WS' ENs...

The goal of PLAN A is for the BS to EVIDENCE the ABILITY and/or POTENTIAL to meet the ENs that were not being met PRIOR to the A...

So, in Sis' case, she need to EVIDENCE her willingness to meet his need for ADMIRATION which comes from allowing him to take care of her..to do things for her...

Not sure how this fits in your situation, Mulan...

From HIS NEEDS/HER NEEDS on a man's need for ADMIRATION:

Thanks, Mulan. I am dreading those setbacks...I know they will come, and I know it will be hard. Just breathe deep and keep pushing forward, right? I know I can come here for help when the time comes.

I even have to look out for my fear sabatoging me. I am very aware of the damage that fear can do...the earlier post by Pep outlined it well, and we've talked about it before. Just this morning I had to banish the thought that WH is just being so normal because my behavior does not faze him at all...he's so secure in his relationship with OW that he sees my efforts as nothing more than a shameful display and he feels sorry for me. Ugh. Had to turn those thoughts off right away, and turned them instead to planning my next assault.

Might sound cheesy and self-righteous, but I decided to tell myself that this is war (which we've all acknowledged), and that I am a warrior for God; for what's right and good...battling against evil. I will not allow evil forces to destroy my H, that good and honorable man that I married.

Since I've never been much of a religious person (church-goer and spiritual, but not religious if you know what I mean), this is a real CHANGE (capital C). And a warrior?? Come on...I mentioned before that I am uncoordinated as can be, not at all athletic, and felt that I had to EARN love from my own husband. So that warrior imagery is FAR from how I've EVER seen myself. But my spirit is strong and getting stronger, and this is a battle fought with love, wits, and emotional endurance. Timidity and fear can no longer define me.

Okay...I'll keep you posted when I've come up with a plan for a new assault on A.

LS

mimi:
OUCH is right...but if the shoe fits...

LS

Of course, this doesn't sound cheesy or self-righteous...

This fits with the belief system of many of us here...

We even had a thread started here on the book THE ART OF WAR...

YOU"VE GOT IT, SIS!!!

ONWARD INTO BATTLE!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LilSis:

Just reading your thread and thought I would add my two cents. I think you are doing a really great job executing your plan.

I find your commitment to be inspirational and I want to add that you are awesome.

My husband has also identified one of his biggest ENs is ADMIRATION. I recognize that I was not doing that previously and would respond to a project that he was doing or an accomplishment at work as "whatever", "why didn't you do that before" This was a major LB and it has really helped tremendously to go out of my way to say how much I appreciate his efforts and recognize his hard work.

I will be doing this in the next few days as he is coming over to work on the mantle for the fireplace.

I know what you mean by fear sabotaging you. It is indeed paralyzing to feel the fear settling into you. I like your description of a warrior. You are indeed girding for battle every day and that is how I am going to look at it too.

Someone said this on this website not too long ago. You must act and not react because you have your eye on the end result, not on what is just happening right now.


Good Luck

Freya

You understand. This is not "cheesy," this is an accurate understanding of the situation.

Yeap. Absolutely.

This IS war. War against the adultery that's threatening your marriage. And the Plans (A & B) are your arsenal of weapons. And we're (the MB army) here to support you in your tactics in implementing those plans and keeping you prop'd up so you stay focused and positive.

Adultery = Evil
Marriage = Good

Jo

LilSis:

Perspective Time:

Your description of Christmas Eve: Excellent Job. You are laying bait for him, just like when you were dating. ANd you are creating conflict. Keep after it.

Too many ILY's? Did you say too many before? The important part is HIS response. Some WS are offended by this. Yours does not appear to be. Go with what feels right for you. AND as icky as it sounds, I never stopped saying ILY to my BS during my A. I wasn't being Honest with her, I know that now, But if you withheld ILY's from him in the past, using them now is a very powerful drug.

You are right about all the little touches at Christmas, and that the Men are "Baching" it. Why no one else followed up on this, I do not know, but here goes:

You do not want to make his new environment any better.

Let him do the boys laundry there. DO Not take it back to your place to do it. Let him own his choice.
Do not invite him over for a "Movie" That just makes it OK For him to slip over to OW after the boys fall asleep at FIL's (However, you could arrange with FIL or friend to watch the boys one night and you take your H away...But that is for later.) Remember, you are trying to disrupt the A.
Make him pay the Taxes/Insurance/mortgage as required. (Do you think he would take OW out less if he had less cash?) Pain=A Killer
Invite your FIL over to enjoy a meal with you and the boys. No H included. Do it on a night he works, and when your H asks why, say because you wanted too, and be cheerful. Get into a pattern. See if he tries to join in. Left the FIL take home the leftovers...

Any MB thoughts on this?

As for competent woman, yes, you are, but when he offers asssistance, TAKE IT! And tell him how great he was.

Does your FIL leave to be with MIL Soon? You stated that MIL is in the Southwest, Why isn't FIL?

If FIL is leaving, then the House will be really barren. (But more opportunity for time w/ OW!) (This could work to your advantage however!)

That's why I proposed you having him host the boys at your house. Even if you leave for a while. And you could have a good home cooked meal in the Fridge. (With extra sugar in the boys meals... So they stay up later!) And if he can not leave right on time, he gets to talk with you longer, making OW angry... These could be his nights with the kids, and once they are in bed, and when you return, He could go to FIL's, or maybe your couch?

Let me address this:

Just this morning I had to banish the thought that WH is just being so normal because my behavior does not faze him at all...he's so secure in his relationship with OW that he sees my efforts as nothing more than a shameful display and he feels sorry for me.

Never, ever, in 4.5 years did I ever feel "secure" in my R with OW. Remember, He is not in your house. OW is getting D'ed. And he hasn't moved in with her has he? How's that for security? He's filed the D papers, he can move on with her if he wanted to, but he can't. BECAUSE OF YOU!

LG

Sis...

this usually comes up

DIVORCE

when WH tries to rush along the D ... you purposefully drag your feet and stall for time

if WH asks YOU to file or asks YOU for papers ... here is the standard MB response to that sort of request:

"I don't do divorce. I do marriage."

you make it difficult and time-consuming for HIM

he must do all the leg work himself

the WS usually does not want to LOOK LIKE the "bad guy" by filing for D

they often ask the BS to do this

do not fall for it

Pep

I'll have to back through these one at at time, so it might be scattered. I'll start with Pep. He did file the papers, two months ago. I have not signed ANYTHING...I refuse to sign my name to any document that ends my marriage. Everything has been done through the attnys. However, I did have my attorney file a motion for support and custody, to protect myself and the boys. I don't really know how to stall it...it seems like it's sort of an autopilot thing. I did tell my attorney I wanted this to take as much time as possible. We haven't done any negotiations for settlement...so I guess that would be when I stall??

Related...LG's remarks about why WH hasn't moved in with OW. I BELIEVE her STBX required that their kids not be with WH during the pendancy of their divorce. So it may not be WH/OW's choice that they are not living together....we'll see after her D is final, which should be the next month or so. UNLESS there's some prohibition on her co-habitating while she gets spousal support (yes, she's getting spousal support--YUCK YUCK).

Also, ILs have stated that when they return from AZ in April, WH should be outta there. No idea what his plans are then. We do have the verbal agreement that the boys are NOT around OW, and I will go to court on that if he violates it...he knows this. Might be tricky to have the boys for overnights if he's living there (not to mention horrible for the boys...the thought of it truly makes my stomach turn).

Anyway, I do not believe for a minute that WH is not living there because of me or feelings for me. There are other issues in play.

I believe MIL went to AZ early because she couldn't take it here anymore with all the drama and WH living in their home. She was very conflicted...loves her son but hates what he's done, aches for me and the boys and feels her son is self-destructing. Too much, and I think she needed to escape.

I do plan to ask WH to do the "tucking in" thing at night with the boys. That is a wonderful idea; perfect. With the holidays and crazy schedules, I haven't had time to implement that one yet. I was thinking of asking him tonight, but more family is coming to town...we'll see.

FIL will be leaving in about a week for AZ. OW is NOT NOT NOT welcome in ILs home whether they are in town or 2000 miles away...I don't know how they are going to enforce that while they are gone, but I guess it will put the onus on WH if he chooses to betray his parent's trust.

It will be lonely and barren; however, my thinking is that ANY contact with me is disruptive to the A. Since I am Plan Aing, I am good, nice, supportive, fun, etc. If OW doesn't like that WH is with me, my HOPE is that she will be mean, crabby, and generally LBing. I'll look better by comparison. Thus if he ever did take me up on my movie invite (which I knew he wouldn't), it would just piss her off. It may even piss her off that I ASKED him to come over. That was part of my motivation for doing the Christmas Eve dinner. If she didn't like it that WH spent the evening with me, and gave him a hard time, too bad. Let her dig her own grave. Maybe she'll sink her claws in so deep that it begins to hurt. BTW, FIL wouldn't stand for WH going to OWs in the evening...assuming he would know about it...he's sort of a don't ask, don't tell guy.

I don't believe I have been making life easy or comfortable for him. He does send the clothes back washed (although any mom will tell you it's getting them put away that's the hard part). WH is paying mortage/taxes/insurance as required by above mentioned support agreement. He may be feeling a little financial pinch, but not much as he is living at ILs rent free. Inviting FIL over for dinner before he leaves town is a great idea.

Finally, I'm definately going to ask for help, and not be helpless, and take him up on his offers to help. I think I will keep up the ILYs, but keep them light and without expectation. I am also going to continue to ask him if he'd like to join the boys and I on outings...to the movies or whatever. Just continually remind him that he is wanted and has a place with us in our family.

Again...so much of this has been a journey for me...discovering who I really am..the essential LilSis. It turns out I'm not who I thought I was...I'm better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LS

BTW....when I arrived home from my mom's, the cat was in, the tree was watered, AND the litter box had been cleaned out... I hadn't requested that last one; it's such an icky job, although one that he did when he lived here and I never THANKED him for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I left a VM thanking him profusely, asking if he would show me the trick about plugging in the car, and telling him the boys and I were going to see a movie (gave the time) and told him the boys and I would all enjoy it very much if he joined us. C-LY-B. Click.

Never got a call back, but that's okay. I did what I needed to do.

I spoke to MIL, and she enthusiastically agreed to do all she could to help arrange "face time" between me and WH. (I think she rather enjoys the intrique, and she desperately wants the M to recover so it is SUCH a blessing to have her on my side.) This week, BIL#2 is visiting with his family (cousins the same age as the boys)...MIL is going to make sure that I am invited to all of the family gatherings that will occur while they are in town.

Keep you all posted...any other ideas? What about frequency of VMs to WH? Once a day if I don't see him? Or is that too frequent?

Thanks AGAIN, all.

(((((MBers!))))

I don't think I would do it as often as once a day, but just be consistent. You want your husband to know that his place in the home awaits. That will be in the back of his mind while dealing with the OW. She has no plan and will probably start LB'ing him, especially if she gets divorced, and he is still married.

Thanks for the feedback on the frequency. Hopefully I'll be seeing him regularly enough over the next several days that it won't be an issue, but it's good to have an idea.

I'm hoping that's the case with OW beginning to LB. In addition, she may begin to expect him to be a more regular fixture in her home...which I hope will be a HUGE helping of reality: HER kids (who probably won't be happy with his presence), HER household chores, HER cooking, HER errands that need running. Hmmmm....guess what? The grass that looked so green before is the same color over here, too....PERHAPS even a little LESS green?

One can hope...

I agree with B about the VMs...that they should not occur everyday..there should be a SHOCK VALUE..out of the blue...

We need to think of something NEW AND DIFFERENT now...

What used to signal ROMANCE with you for your WH? Remember he wants that YOU from the PAST..That's what the OW does not have..A PAST with HIM...They only have the PRESENT and HOPE for the FUTURE...He needs to BELIEVE that there can be a FUTURE with YOU that is much like the PAST..Understand?

There needs to be less focus on FAMILY activities and more on the POTENTIAL for ROMANCE...

For sure, it's a given that he will come in the house when picking up the children...

Does he like GREETING CARDS?? Love notes?? What about that idea someone had about a note on his windshield????

Think..what did he like in the past????

I'll give you an example from our experience.

When we were first dating, falling in love, my H would light candles in his dorm room..Yes, bear with me...So during PLAN A, I started buying candle lamps, placing them around the house..YC Store junkie that I am now....This tradition has lasted since that time..My H lights the candles each night now...Bread crumbs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />... Maybe too much information and I'm not recommending candles for you two..but I'm trying to give you the flavor of what I am talking about...

His R with the OW is probably a lot about ROMANCE...

Oh, it doesn't matter if it is bent grass in the summer or zoysia in the winter, all grass will turn brown at some point. It is just a question of how stubborn your WH is at admitting mistakes to you and, even more importantly, himself.

Oh, no matter how much your husband likes her kids, it will get old real quick. My ex and I raised 8 together, and I knew them all for 4 years before we married, and some days were H*LL. At a young age, your whole life seems to revolve around the kids. Not going to be too much romance going on. Mark my words.

Yes...this will be the VALUE of PLAN B..

But he has to know that there is the potential of ROMANCE with YOU...

That's what you want to communicate now during PLAN A so that he will miss YOU during PLAN B....

Thanks, all.

mimi: I was thinking of asking WH on a "date," telling him I have a BABYSITTER. That was something he ALWAYS complained bitterly about: I never got a babysitter so we could go out...we would always rely on ILs (when the boys were young, I was always very leary of having anyone else take care of them...I know, I know...) The word "babysitter" might trigger something...but I don't know if it's too much to ask him on a date. Maybe just asking, using the trigger word, would be enough? It would also indicate Change in me; taking some initiative.

I am going to leave a note on the windshield. Just haven't been able to with all the holiday stuff going on.

OH...I know!!! I know!! Just came to me!!! When we first started dating, he brought me a single rose. I laughed and said, "You know, LilSisSis told me once that the tradition is one rose, then two roses, then three roses, and when the guy gets to a dozen, that's when he proposes."

So a couple of dates later, I got two roses, a few dates later I got three. Then, on Dec. 3, 1993, he gave me 57 roses, and a ring. (Get it?? The four roses, plus the five roses, plus the six roses, etc., up to the 12 roses) HOW'S THAT FOR ROMANCE?? (I still have all the dried rose petals)

So...what about if I give him one rose?

Do ya love it??? (mimi, your example triggered that, so thanks!)

Feedback, please! I'm all excited, now.

Jim: That's fear...that he is too stubborn to admit his mistake. I think he will go to great lengths to maintain the facade that he was right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LilSis

It's too soon to ask him on a date. Instead I would get a babysitter for the kids, and YOU go out, even if you have to go to WalMart for the evening.

You can text him and remind him that you hate leaving the kids with a babysitter, and could he possibly check on them while you are out. Let him know that it is hard for you, but know that it won't hurt the kids.

That way, he SEES that you are changing. He will be wondering what you are doing. All good.

You have just got to plan A your brains out so there is no way he could convince anyone of that including himself.

OT
Jim: What the he** is zoysia? Michigan State offers a degree in Turf Grass Management, you know. I always wondered who the heck would major in THAT! But clearly, your expertise extends beyond the manufacture of controlled substances....

Sis,
I think the one rose is a good idea. Does he email? I started sending mine e-cards. There are some that are suggestive without being suggestive.

Personally, I don't think you should tell him you ha ve a babysitter you are using alone. I think that would be a slap in the face to him that you wouldn't do it when he was home but you will for yourself.

Now, you might ask him to come babysit so you can go 'out' even to Walmart.

Just my .02

You might get a sitter so the two of you can go to lowes and pick out a water heater, though. That would not be a date, but would still be the two of you together. Maybe stop for coffee on the way home?

I think the rose idea is PERFECT...



I love this idea..not TOO DIRECT in your face...but yet a DATE...

Don't mention the sitter specifically...

Can even ask him to MEET you at Lowe's..making it like a rendezvous...

Of course, you might need to stop and VACUUM out the car..that might involve some bending over and accidental touching...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

MF: ahhh...you remembered by water heater dilemma. Excellent idea...

I like all of your ideas...and I think you might be right about getting the babysitter. Besides, he wouldn't buy it if I asked him to come check on the babysitter...the boys are almost old enough not to need one, and WH knows I wouldn't use anyone that wasn't suitable.

Asking him to come "babysit" while I go to TARGET goes right along with what lousygolfer was saying. Definately in the plan.

Zoysia is a somewhat fine bladed grass that LOVES the heat and humidity of summer, but turns brown in late fall. Most golf courses in St. Louis have zoysia fairways because typical golf course grasses like bent grass cannot take the heat of a St. Louis summer. The thing about zoysia is that it grows like a weed. So if you plug zoysia into your yard, your neighbors will soon have zoysia as well.

Target would be my preference as well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So glad I asked... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Don't you roll your eyes at me. If you didn't want an answer, you shouldn't have asked the question. Typical woman. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Now for another problem. Manipulative OW sometimes get PG on purpose, especially when they think the relationship is being threatened...........

Yep...she will need to eventually throw out hints about the pregnancy issue..but not yet..The OW continues to think that she has the POWER..little does she know, right guys?... Sis has to focus on throwing in the ROMANCE STUFF...OW will get divorced and start LBing..when he drags his feet and becomes MIA...then she will get concerned... MY PREDICTION on this....

Okay, you are the expert, Mimi. I was just remembering mom23boys. We discussed the pregnancy thing on this board, and mom even warned dad, but he laughed it off. Now he is living with his OW and baby.

I vote for mailed "hand written" cards every so often from you not only expressing sincere thanks (admiration) for the things he's been doing, but also telling him whats been going on at home with the kids and you.

Just quick quirps about life at home, etc. Light, funny and whenever the opportunity presents itself, reminders of the past happy family times.

There's a def by-product to a mailed hard copy hand written card, and that is its highly likely OW will see one sooner or later. Also known as an OW-Love Buster waiting to happen. lol

ETA: These hand written notes can be read again and again by him once Sis enters into Plan B. They will remind him life at home is a safe place waiting his return (A Lighthouse).

Jo

Gee thanks, Believer. I certainly don't consider myself to be an EXPERT..I'm a FAITHFUL MEMBER of this WONDERFUL TEAM OF WARRIORS here on MB..which definitely includes YOU. I've just been studying and studying this stuff, trying to come to SOME UNDERSTANDING of the HORROR of INFIDELITY...has helped with my own coping.

That all being said, I think Sis needs to begin WARNING him very, very soon but she needs to develop a PLAN for some one on one time with him first..more PLAN A..or else he won't listen to what she has to say about the OW anyways...

The PREGNANCY issue is a REAL and MAJOR CONCERN...

That was the last card that the FOW tried to play in my situation...I thankfully had warned my H..at the suggestion of folks here..and it ended up being a MAJOR DEALBREAKER..a NAIL in the AFFAIR coffin..because my H had stressed to her that he was "FINISHED" with having children...yet she began to repeatedly bring it up in all sorts of ways..."I bet we would have a cute baby"....(Mimi,gagging)

I'm pretty sure that she could have convinced him of it..if I hadn't warned him...

YUCK!!!!

What do you think if LilSis were to leave VM's or notes, one a day for 2-3 days, then miss a day or two, then do something else the day after that?

She doesn't want to be too eager, but if he gets to looking forward to that little bright spot in his day, and then it doesn't come some of the time, won't he miss her and think of her the more?

Love the not-date idea!

Oh, no! Poor mom23boys! Believe me, I THANK GOD that WH had a vasectomy after DS8 because OW is totally capable of that. Whew!

Methinks WH is getting his crack fix today. I left VM this AM wondering about plans for today...WH is off, boys are home, and cousins are in town, so I would think he would have had some idea about spending the day with them?? Apparently not. He called back and told me to call BIL and make arrangements for the cousins to play...Huh?

While I had him on the phone, I asked if he could come over and show me about the plug for the car, and he told me it was easy, just do this, do that, end of story, and check the owner's manual. Okaaayyy.

I went a little further and brought up the water heater again.
LS: Can we go together and pick one out? DS11 even complained this morning that his shower was cold.
WH: Why don't you just call around?
LS: Because I really feel out of my element here. I don't know who to call, who's reputable, what we need, that kind of thing.
We talk a little about what could be wrong with it, how old it is, and agree that it just needs to be replaced.
WH: I think if you just call around...
LS: Could you do that for me...please? (my voice conveys that my eyelashes are batting)
WH: Well...and do what? Have someone call you to make arrangements?
LS: No...you can just go ahead and make arrangements.
WH: Well, who's paying for this?
LS: We will.
WH: Okay, we'll work that later.
LS: Thank you very much. I feel much better knowing you will be taking care of this for me. I'll call BIL and make plans for the kids to get together. C-LY-B.
Click.

He was in the car...I'm totally assuming he had plans with OW today. OK, I know; assumptions...but the cool thing for me is that I'm not sick to my stomach about the thought of it. In my mind, OW doesn't exist. She's off my radar (sorta). I just do what *I* need to do...I can only control ME.

So I called BIL and we planned to get the kids together right away tomorrow, and if they return from visiting other friends at a decent hour this evening, the cousins may come over for a sleepover in the attic. He said other than the plans they have today, the next couple of days are wide open. We chatted a bit, just friendly stuff.

After I got off the phone with BIL, I had a brainstorm...why not have everyone over here for a meal? My house is MUCH better suited to a houseful of kids than ILs (we have more space, more toys, and it's generally kid-proof). I could make a few kinds of soup, get some good bread, cut up some fruit, make cookies, and we can just make it an informal family gathering. I, of course, would be the gracious and easy-going hostess who makes great soup. What a heroine! (IMO, it would solidify my role in the family...doesn't matter that WH has filed for divorce...I'm still IN. There is certainly no room for a skanky homewrecker OW in this picture.)

So I called FIL with the idea...he thought it sounded good...but also said he was leaving all the plans to my "generation." So a little later I'm going to call BIL back and suggest that for tomorrow or Friday. WH is off both days, so he could hardly beg off without looking petty. And if I make plans with BIL and SIL independently, we just bypass WH.

About the rose...my idea is to sneak by sometime at night/early AM and stick it under the wiper. A week or so later, do it again, with two roses. No note, no contact. He'll get the message loud and clear.

So much to do...I'm also going to check out some e-cards as MF suggested, because I really do need to rachet up the romance part. I also thought about somehow communicating that I had another present for him that wasn't really appropriate for Christmas Eve...a little something I picked up at Priscillas. WH: "Why would I care?/Why would I want it?/I don't want it!/(or the like)" LS: "You may not now...but you will..."

But I need to play this all carefully, I don't want to overdo it. You'll all have to help me with the pacing, kay?

Thanks!
LS

Awww...Gerald Ford died...the hometown boy... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh, Oh! (hand waving in the air)

What about the hand-written card with the comment about the "other" present (along with the thank yous)? OW would FREAK if she saw it.

I also love the idea of family/kid updates, especially when we get back to the usual school/work routine. Someone suggested that before. Easy, breezy...emails would work great for that one.

Yes..you will find him to be more receptive when he is not anticipating GETTING HIGH...YUCK!!

I think they should be hand written (by you and maybe sometimes the kids) real cards sent in snail mail.

Something he can read and read again when Plan B hits.

Jo

Ahhhh...strokes chin...very sneaky. LOVE IT.

Why not all of the above?

Tangibles for their potential OW irritation and beacon value during Plan B, and emails for quick consistency in touching bases.

AH...THE BATTLE PLANS!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LilSis,

Been lurking a bit...

I know ALL about manipulative OW...and I've got to say, I AM SOOOOOO THANKFUL your wh has been "fixed."

Still, word of warning....that's not to say that she still won't try the pg thing once he begins to slip her grasp. "It didn't take" is a common theme...then OOP! I lost the baby. Never, ever underestimate what they'll pull.

AND YOU ARE TOTALLY A PLAN A GODDESS!

AWESOME!

AWESOME!

AWESOME!

>Tangibles for their potential OW irritation and beacon value during Plan B,

YES!

And let the kids text him now and again. My kids did that when the Wookie was with VD for that week....SHE ERASED THEM! He was LIVID!

(evil grin)

- Kimmy

LilSis,

You are awesome, so strong to be planning A at the holidays in such a clear thinking manner. This whole A stuff is hard, but you are doing so well!

In my own sitch, I didn't find MB until after D-day #2 and FWH agreed to try with the marriage, so I defer to all the other experts here on the best Plan A/Plan B. I did want to share that I am a very competent person who did more than my share in the marriage (as far as work). There were a couple of things that were in my WH's domain, house repairs, car repairs and paying the bills. Doing these things annoyed my FWH, I don't know if it was pre-A or just A. He felt like I only wanted him there to perform these tasks as I was so efficient in the other areas. He resented having to do them. Probably fog-speak but he convinced himself that was the only reason I wanted him around. Thus in my case, when I was Plan A'ing instinctively, I tried to handle the car repairs, the home maintenance, etc., in my mind to "show" him that I didn't need him to do those things for me, I could be independent. What this lead to is more time for WH to mess around with OW, yuk!(we were un-officially seperated for over a year, lived in two different states.). So when I saw that you understood not to be helpless, I was glad as it would have been too different from your true self. However, I agree with you asking for help not only bc it shows you need your WH, many things with the boys and the home should be joint responsibility until (and if) the D is final.

Lastly, I am saying this out of consideration as I am 5'7.5" tall and went down to 110 lbs and a size 2 on the A diet, for most people, a size O is not a healthy size. Please, please focus a lot of that great attention onto yourself and take care of you! Eat right, even if you have to force the food down, relax, do fun things just for you, pamper yourself. Your sons are young, but my YS was 13 when this all started, they notice when you don't eat and sleep and have lost weight, they worry and it upsets them. When they see that you are ok, no matter how the M turns out, this reassures them. So, what I'm saying is that while saving your M is important, please put yourself and your sons ahead of that. If A's are addictive, that is what family members are advised when their loved one is addicted to drink or drugs.

I do want to end by saying you do rawk!! MI may rawk, but OSU rawks more!! Go Bucks!

Kimmy:
I'd actually LOVE it if she tried to pull the pg thing. It would TRULY reveal her skankiness. I am a "fertile Myrtle" and I have had no scares for the past seven years post-vasectomy. OW had to do the whole hormone shot thing to get pg with her kids, so I think WH might... ahh....question? the validity of her assertion that he was going to be a daddy again. Even his foggy brain would wonder about that.

Bring it, ratturd. I've got an MB army behind me.

LS

If not that...then rape.

VD recently pulled that.

Sad that another woman doubts her...but after all she's done, I do.

She called at 3:45 in the morning saying she didn't know why she was calling Wookie.

He's a cop, also...so he did the logical cop thing and reported it to the authorities and went back to bed. 2 hours later she calls cussing him out saying it's his fault she's at the hospital for a rape kit and he better get his a$$ over there to take her home.

Um...nope, click.

Just a'warning you.

Manipulative is just a smidge away from nucking futs.

Kimmy:

We've got to keep Sis pumped up to do her Plan A...


She's been keeping her mind off of the OW while she does this...

I agree with the nutso stuff..the OW in my case was like that,too, especially when she knew that she was LOSING...

The MB Army can help her deal with that if and when it comes...

Mimi, being overprotective of Sis....trying to help her MAINTAIN the POWER.....

She's doing awesomely....

I apologize.

Edited to add: And what she said about the OW being nonexistant is DEAD ON! I wish I had taken that stance from the get-go!

Sis- my girlfriend told me to think of VD as lineolium (no matter how much 2Long is fond of it)...and it works. Ugly ol lineolium that you scrape up and toss out to make way for lovely hardwood (shiny new life).

- Kimmy

Spoke a little too soon...on my way back from a great outing with the boys and slowed down at a green light to make a right hand turn and who is sitting there at the red waiting to go the same way as me...WH and OW. Nice.

Guess she isn't really non-existent. I just WISH I had thought to roll down my window and give a huge wave and a smile as I turned the corner. Instead I was shaking. Clearly they thought the better of coming the same way because by the time I waited through the next light a few blocks away, they never showed up behind me. Maybe they were both beamed back up to the mother ship.

I KNEW he was getting his crack fix today.

Am I okay, everyone? 'Cuz I feel a little icky. Time to go read the Bible again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Ohhh gawd, I've been there Sis. Just shake it off hon. Its a blip on your WAR radar. Nothing has changed, we're still full steam ahead.

Just curious, did they see you or your car do you know? I hope they did, cuz that will most certainly affect their day. Be expecting a call from your husband reeeeal soon.

I'd also like to point out something you may not have thought of, you still KNOW your husband very well. You KNEW he was seeing RT today ... your instincts are very reliable so remember that and use it to your advantage in the future.

Breathe girlie. You're just fine, God is on our side.

Jo

Aw, honey I'm sorry.

I would have probably reacted the same way.

Tomorrow is a new day.

I am wondering if you should make some kind of contact tomorrow- show this did not scare you off or would it be better to skip a couple of days and make him wonder? Mimi?

Oh, I'm sure they saw me. I was doing one of those, "Is that who I THINK it is?" looks as I went around the corner. It was dark, but I saw enough. Besides, they were in the "going straight" lane, so they should have come up behind me, and curiously never made it to the next light. The 4-5 streets that cross between the two lights go off into residential areas.

He won't call. Not a chance. It may have affected their night, but it won't prompt him to call. He just got his fix, after all, so he's high as a kite.

I'd very curious to hear your responses/suggestions about when to make contact. I have an IC appointment at 10, and I had planned that the boys would be with WH tomorrow...but we don't have any firm plans (he was too busy to do that today as RT had his full attention). So do I call him in the AM and tell him I'll be dropping the boys off...or do I bring them over to my SIL, who's always willing to have them for an hour, and just leave WH out of the loop?

You are right. Tomorrow is a new day, with new battles to fight, and new opportunities to be my best self. This is a marathon. I don't need to get myself down with things I can't control. (Honestly, I wish I felt as good as all that sounds when I read it back to myself. I'll keep reading it.)

Thanks, all.
LS

All during my Plan A my then WH would spend each ENTIRE WEEKEND with the OW....and saw her for hours daily...

Soooo, yes, unfortunately, you have a long road ahead of you...

But look at my H and I today...

Know and expect that there is lots of contact between the infidels during Plan A...This is what this WAR, unfortunately, is all about...

Ark has a post about this somewhere... Anybody?

Wonder why they GOT LOST from you????

Why aren't they PROUD of their relationship?

Because it is WRONG..they are forced to RUN and HIDE....

CONTINUE AS PLANNED....YOU ARE THE LIGHT...THEY LIVE IN THE DARKNESS OF EVIL...

In order to win this particular battle that occurred tonight, you have to get right back up on your horse and forge ahead with even more conviction.

NOTHING NEW OR SURPRISING...

Damn straight, Mimi. They have to slither away in shame where no one sees them. Sleazy shamefully slithering away.

How would you have handled/coordinated it had you not seen them today?

Jo

Why isn't he picking them up..then coming into the house?

This is very good news, LilSis. Now he can no longer think to himself that he is not hurting you. I think he still has a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. At some level he knows that this was sleazy behavior.

WH and I ended up divorced. But we had times of talking intimately. He lost his self respect, and realized what he was doing was wrong. I made a lot of mistakes. It is essential to remain calm and pleasant. My WH lost hope long before the divorce that I would ever take him back. He chose the easy way out by staying with the skank.

That is my situation EXACTLY. My WH had those exact same responsibilities, and he complained (during A) that he felt "like a fixture." Huh? I never got that, since I felt like I was doing 80% of the pulling around the house...like he had dropped off the radar. Now that I've been "schooled," I see that I was not meeting his EN for admiration or affection. Like someone said earlier, my response would be something like, "FINALLY! It's about time that got done!" not an "Oh, my hero! I've been wishing for that to get done and YOU made my wish come true! You are wonderful, talented..." After all (old LilSis would say) when was the last time I got patted on the back for washing 16 pairs of dirty underwear or cleaning vomit out of the carpet? Truth is, we BOTH sucked at the admiration--and affection--thing.

Also, about my weight. I am doing okay...the size zeros are getting snug. I have not been weighing myself obsessively lately. I did step on the scale yesterday and was surprised that I still hadn't cracked the 100 lb. mark. I thought for sure with the holidays...even though it's all junk.

DS11 has noticed, and I know he was worried, but not so much anymore. For one, I think they've gotten used to seeing me skinny, and second, they do see me eat now...whereas nearly all summer all I could choke down was Carnation Instant Breakfast...2x per day. That was it. In addition, my mood and affect are SO much better. I think seeing me waste away physically AND emotionally was very scary to DS11 especially. Now that my emotional state has stabilized, the weight thing is no longer an issue for him. As a matter of fact, DS11 said something tonight to the effect that he admires my confidence; that he believes in me.

Thanks, nab. I appreciate you bringing that up and reminding me. And BTW...I went to MSU so the whole Michigan/Ohio State thing doesn't do anything for me. I think I was at the mall during the big game... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Okay. I'll do that. He'll get a phone call in the morning, "Honey, could you please come by at 9:30 to pick up the kids? See you then. Thanks!"

Thanks, B. I do believe that my H does have a sense of right and wrong. Whether or not he has the will and ability to pull himself away from the crack, away from his WH-ishness, and into the light is the question. But I will remain calm and pleasant...that is the light. I have also made TONS of mistakes. I could NEVER have done this five...even two months ago. I just wasn't Plan A material: I was too devastated, too demoralized. I was a mess.

Could I ask you a question? Do you believe that your XH lost hope that you would ever take him back BEFORE or AFTER you gave up hope that your true H would come back? So I guess I'm asking...who ultimately gave up on the M first? And second...(I hope I'm not re-hashing painful memories here) what, if anything, would you do differently, and/or what do you think might have changed the outcome?

If it's too painful, please don't respond. But your comments sparked my interest. I have thought many times that WH would stay with RT because doing so would allow him to continue to hide behind his rationalizations and justifications, and never have to admit he was wrong, never have to face the pain he has caused SO many people. If he sticks it out with RT, then he was right all along and everyone can just kiss his ***.

Thanks, believer.
LS

I found those ark posts for you...

The Art of War ones??

VM to WH:
"Hi Honey, it's me. Hope you have having a good morning. Wondered if you could please come by at 9:30 to pick up the boys? See you then! Thanks!" If he doesn't show, I'll just drop the boys off at ILs.

Feeling better this AM about seeing them together. Actually, I was able to put it into perspective surprisingly quickly last night...thanks in large part to all of your comments here. Just keep chipping away....I have lots of support, lots of people praying for me, and God is on my side.

How can I lose?

It's amazing how Confidence can keep Fear at bay. That's the inner battle that I fight...along with the outter battle to reach my H who is lost in the dark.

LS

Good Morning:

"WHAT A DIFFERENCE A DAY MAKES" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bumped up "The Art of War" for you....

Sis, you sound much better.

I think you are doing an awesome job.

Just wanted to send you a cyber hug and say keep it up (((Sis)))

Li'l Sis,

Don't have anything to add to be of help to you, as my Plan A and Plan B belong in the MarriageBuilder's Hall of Shame...BUT, just wanted you to know I am following your sitch and supporting you behind the screen...

Brit's Brat

Li'l Sis,

Good to see you are aware of the weight thing. I think boys especially are very protective of their moms and are more aware than we realize. Especially if it is the dad that is the wacked out WS, they need to be assured that at least one parent is ok.

My older two sons thought I was mad at them for not protecting me from WH/OW. This came out about 6 mo. after d-day 2. I really don't know where that came from, but again I think it is a son/mom thing. I just told them that it wasn't their job to protect me from the A, it was WH's and I in no way held them responsible. But it did touch me that they wanted to protect me, I hope through all of this they are seeing me as an example how to behave, that's all I can do.

Good luck today, I never saw my WH with OW, that must be hard. Like you said though, with all the support on MB, you will be ok!

Thanks for all the support, everyone! You have no idea how much it means to me...

Just returned from IC, and it was a great session. I "confessed" to my therapist that I am hoping to recover my marriage by being my "best self" and giving love without expectation. My therapist said that was probably not all together honest...that perhaps a better way of saying it would be love without possession. He was very supportive of my new point of view, how I have grown and changed and have such a new perspective on life. I was nervous about telling him...afraid that he would think I was setting myself up for failure. Not so...he said I was setting myself up for success...no matter what the outcome of the marriage.

We also talked about Change. I know that I would not be the person I am now if I hadn't gone through all of this ugliness and pain. During the darkest days, I would get so angry when people would say that God had a plan. I was feeling so forsaken; like He was not there at all and wasn't answering any of my prayers. But now, having gained six months (as of today....ugh) of perspective, I can see that He did have a plan. Going through all of this, experiencing this, was a way for me to let go of all those old fears of needing to earn love, needing to be perfect. My therapist pointed out that if that's how I defined love, then I really was incapable of loving in return...that I would feel others would need to earn my love as well. How true, how true.

Now I feel free...free to love without possession, and free to be loved without sacrifice. I know this isn't a permanent state...I will slide back and forth from time to time...but at least I know the Truth. At least I've experienced this. If Fear gains a foothold, I know that there is a different way to experience life and I can search for that again.

On a more practical note...WH never showed up to pick up the boys, so I ran them over to FIL. I told FIL that I had left a message for WH and it was not returned. FIL said WH had gone out for breakfast (at the cafe where OW works of course). I said I wasn't surprised, but it does make it difficult for me when he doesn't answer his cell or return VMs. I have things to do.

FIL was upset...he said his expectation is that WH is to spend time with his boys at every opportunity. I calmly told FIL that I agreed, but yesterday WH was too busy getting his fix that he couldn't take the time...and described my conversation with WH yesterday, when he pretty much blew off spending time with the boys and instructed me to call BIL to set up a visit with the cousins. I reiterated the crack thing...that for WH getting his fix takes precedence over everything, so we should not be surprised by his behavior. I also told FIL that I saw WH and OW together last night. FIL was visibly angered by this revelation--and this is a man who shows very, very little emotion.

I also told FIL that I was not shocked to see them together...that I know this goes on, and it doesn't change what I need to do. FIL said he appreciated that, and he commented about how he sees WH "not at peace." (I should hope not, but I still wish that FIL would be a bit more outwardly forceful about disavowing, and not enabling WH/OW's "relationship")

Before I left, I restated my offer to have the whole family over for a meal at some point today or tomorrow and FIL said he would encourage that with BIL/SIL. Unfortunately, one of the cousins sounds like he visited Neak's house...both ends...so if they're all contaminated with the bug it might not be a great idea.

We'll see. Time will tell. I am at peace (for the moment). I do hope that WH has had to experience some consequences for not being more responsible about the boys and essentially putting other things first. Certainly FIL will share his feelings, but I hope that WH also feels some guilt or shame that he wasn't there and recognizes at some level that he was too busy hanging out with OW to answer his cell or check his voice mail. The reality is, however, that he will probably blame me for not making arrangements yesterday for him to pick up the boys.

But I'm okay. I am still where I was earlier: look at everything that is on my side. How can I lose? No matter the outcome, I am a better person. I WANT to be this person.

I WOULD NOT BE HERE WITHOUT ALL OF YOU. YOU HAVE NO IDEA....

LilSis
(but not so Lil anymore...either physically or metaphorically)

Good job with FIL. You are explaining things just right. My ex hid his affair so well that the inlaws didn't believe me.

So it is wonderful that you can help yours understand the mind of a junkie.

Let's see - my old mistakes - this will be quick.

I wanted to show WH that I could be fine on my own, and did too good a job of it. One time he made the comment that it seemed I was doing better without him.

OW was determined too, and drove by my house constantly taunting me. I rose to the bait and blew up at her several times, and told WH to ask his sl*t to leave me alone. Of course, she denied it, and I looked like the crazy one. It would have been much better to ignore that fact that she existed at all.

I should have seen an attorney to protect myself financially. WH and OW had a ton of money to blow, so the first few years of the affair were nothing but fun.

Don't count on this!! This morning I was just thinking how your WH was sooo different than others in wanting to spend time with his boys. Now, he's more closely following the SCRIPT...



EXACTLY..unfortunately...



Yes, this is good. He won't like disappointing his father. However, but don't count on him feeling much GUILT and SHAME at this point. That comes AFTER WITHDRAWAL. All he cares about is getting his next fix..which he uses to soothe any emotional pain. I know, YUCK...but I think it's helpful for you to acknowledge what you are dealing with here. ACCEPTING REALITY is a huge key to winning this battle. You have to come to a full understanding of your foe.

That being said, this MAY be an OUTGROWTH of your PLAN A.

He MAY BE TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK WITH HER, TRYING TO BINGE OFF OF HER TO CONTINUE TO GET HIS HIGH, recognizing now that he also RESPONDS to you...this makes him FEARFUL of LOSING HER....

This happened a couple of times in my situation. It seemed that the more responsive my WH was to me..at one point, he even got CLOSER to her....The week before I latest REAL RECOVERY he took her on a week-long trip to the beach....

Sooo, it may SEEM BAD when it's not. That's why I say all the time DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS. Those WSes DON'T MAKE ANY LOGICAL SENSE TO US SANE HUMAN BEINGS. A common phrase around here is "HE'S BEEN CAPTURED BY AN ALIEN".....

The key is for you to STAY ON COURSE with YOUR PLAN regardless of what HE IS DOING..

You want to REGISTER MEMORIES in his brain for PLAN B...You want him to BELIEVE in your change..You want him to BELIEVE that there can be a FUTURE with you...Right now, he's in a PIG STY..or shall we say IN THE SEWER... with a RAT TURD.....

Just quickly jumping in to say:

Its a very common theme the WS takes the OP on a "vacation" trip before they dump them.

I have seen that same scenario on these boards too many times to count.

All I can think is they (WS) feel so much guilt for dumping them (OP) they feel a nice trip will ease the curb kicking.

Thanks, believer. Clearly I've done a bang-up job of appearing to be the crazy one...but I'm done with that, so there's nowhere to go but up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks to all the advice here, I am also working on allowing WH to be more engaged, more significant in my life. Again, up until recently, I was doing all the grunt work myself...just to prove to him that I can do it on my own, dammit! Not good. (sound familiar?) This one is harder because he's not living here. But it goes further than that...I also need him to be a father to my children, my friend, my lover, my partner in maintaining a house. I need him as the guy whom I LOVE, who I want to be with, who I want to share my life with. To make my life more fulfilled, because I can't be fulfilled if I am unable to carry out the promises I made when we got married. If we give up on those promises, both of us have really lost something precious that we can never regain...no matter what happens.

Does that make sense?

Thanks, Resilient.

I just thought of something else that might be going on that I experienced.

It's the CONFUSION that Pep and Neak talked about.

My then WH and I began talking to each other fairly often throughout the day on his cell. Then all of a sudden he stopped and DEMANDED for me to "STOP CALLING HIM"..I thought it was "WEIRD" (nothing new at the time) since he seemed to enjoy our conversations...Come to find out later, he was getting CONFUSED about who he was talking to. He would hang up from me and then talk to her..she would call him while he was talking to me...then I would call him while he was talking to her...OH MY.....She won that particular battle... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But the thing is, it's going to be hard for YOU and others listening to actually KNOW what is going on with a WS..other than the WS is TEMPORARILY INSANE, ABDUCTED BY AN ALIEN and HIGH ON THE AFFAIRNESS...YUCK!!!

Love how you've created a whole new verb. Let's conjugate:
Past tense: "My WH finally curb kicked the skanky ho."
Present tense: "Check out BW's technique as she curb kicks her WH."
(The other tenses escape me now...)

mimi: I think I'm in a good place with regard to reality. Let's check: OW is nothing but crack. She's a nothing, but she provides him with his fix. It's easier to think of her as a non-human entity; that thing in the passenger seat isn't a breathing woman who (enter all the disgusting stuff I read in those emails 6 months ago today). She's just a drug.

I KNOW that he's with her. I KNOW that he spends time with her. I KNOW he wants her and he THINKS he's in love, can't live without her, she's his soulmate. THAT IS REALITY, so let's not dwell on that. The question is, how do I respond to that reality.

So do I know my foe? Let's check: it's not OW as much as it is WH. WH is keeping me from H. I need to get through WH to get to H...that's the ultimate prize. WH uses OW to keep the wall up, to maintain rationalizations and justifications, to get the fix that allows WH to deny reality. So OW is just a very powerful tool for evil. But for my part, wasting energy thinking about OW just takes my eye off the ball. Not that I can't LEARN from the tactics she uses to entice WH...

I suspect that OW was with her family in Wisconsin over Christmas, and yesterday was her first day back. So of course WH was getting a HUGE high and couldn't possibly think about anything else.

It was just a bit of a kick in the gut last night...but I am amazed how well I handled it, really. Nary a tear was shed! In fact, I laughed with my boys about everyday stuff.

No worries, all. I AM ABSOLUTELY COMMITTED TO THIS PLAN. I am a warrior, remember? tee hee. The image still cracks me up.

So do I check out okay?
LS

MY GOODNESS, SIS!!

We need to give you a Ph.D. in OTHERWIFENESS...or shall I say..WAYWARD HUSBAND MENTALITY..

YOU HAVE SOOOO GOT IT!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Looks like a go for tonight...WH and 2DS, FIL, 2 sets of BIL/SILs and their collective six kids...here at my house for soup, bread, wine, fruit, and dessert.

Preparing a three kinds of soup: $37
Three baguettes: $9
Scoring points with the ILs and making RT hopping mad: Priceless




Just chipping away...maybe it's time for Operation PP (remember that one??)

Yes definitely time for OPERATION PP!!!

What's your "OUTFIT"?

Lots of "ACCIDENTAL" touching...on the thigh works fine...

Keep your chest out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Neakster, you're so cute! lol

Sis,

Wear those panties before you place in target's pocket.

Also, be sure to come here and de-brief us on status post-operation PP. <pun intended>

HoooYA!
Jo

praying for you right now.

Sis:

Just throwing my support behind you all the way. Have been reading your thread and admire your gumption.

After what you experienced yesterday, you have picked yourself up, shaken off the dirt and continue to move slowly and patiently forward. I have you pictured as a mini warrior princess who refuses to let her eye off the "prey".

You have my undying admiration. Good Luck tonight! I know you can do it.

Freya

*tap tap tap*

We're waiting.......no pressure, whenever you're ready........

*tap tap tap tap tap tap*

(What can be taking her so long?)

{{{Jo}}} <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Once again, I spoke too soon.

The food was great, the company was nice, the kids all had a blast and I just tucked in five cousins for an attic sleepover....and it's still ten minutes to midnight.

Unfortunately, WH totally bailed.

He never even came into the house. As soon as I realized he wasn't coming in, I called and left a VM encouraging him to come by...all the family here, etc. Later in the evening I asked FIL if *I* was the reason WH didn't come, and he said no...apparently WH had some pressing "social engagement" that he had already planned. FIL's face showed that he was NOT happy. WH had implied to his dad that it was a card game (could be true; the group has a tournament a couple of times a year).

A couple of hours into it (this thing went from 5:30 to 11:30), I left another VM saying there's still soup, we're all here, enjoying ourselves, please consider coming by and joining us. This message was a little less breezy...more sympathetic? serious? More of a "you are missing out on something significant" tone. And I closed it with ILY.

At about 10:30, WH calls, says thank you for the invite, but he'll pass. I ask if he'd like to come by just for a drink and say hello...everyone's still here and the kids are all having fun. No thanks. Okay, bye.

How bizarre. This is HIS whole family...his brothers, their wives and his dad. All eight grandchildren were here; all between the ages of 6 months and 11 years. The entire family, except for WH and MIL. The whole family gets together only about once a year, so this will likely be it until next Christmas. If I hadn't pulled it together, it might not have happened at all. And I don't mind hosting, or feel put upon...I enjoy their company. Everyone had a very nice time. But if it hadn't been at MY house....who knows. I might not have been invited. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I just can't imagine bailing on the once a year family gathering to go play cards with a bunch of guys that you see all the time. That's assuming there WAS a card tournament tonight...could be that RT pitched a fit or that they had plans.

Anyway, I feel good about spending time with the people I've come to think of as family. I enjoyed hosting them in my home, I enjoyed cooking for them, I enjoyed catching up with my SILs, I enjoyed watching my kids play with their cousins, I was delighted that Uncle K was able to FINALLY download DS's playlists onto their ipods.

So, not a total failure in the "feel good about myself" department, but I didn't make any headway in the marital recovery department. Unless WH has some sense that he missed out on something, but my gut tells me he doesn't. He will rationalize that he doesn't like spending time with his family anyway, or that I was trying to hi-jack his family, or that the "card game" was too important to miss. The only way it could be a positive for me is if RT MADE him bail out even though he really wanted to be here. BUT I don't think he really wanted to be here.

And all of you out there wishing me good luck and cheering me on! What a boost to find those messages, especially after a disappointing turn of events. I feel like I let you all down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LilSis

(((LilSis))) You didn't let us down. You are doing fine. Keep doing what you are doing. Being the lighthouse.

you can do this

hang in there

I know this is but a CRUMB..but it is actually GOOD that he called and I was secretly SURPRISED that he would come anyways..after a full day with her before, he likely couldn't resist going back for more...Remember, she's a DRUG DEALER and the DRUGS are FREE....But, he got it..He got that he was welcome and he shows that he knows that he was WRONG by not showing up...there's some bit of decency left somewhere inside of him...



NOPE..NORMAL AND EXPECTED FOR A WS.....Sad to say, he doesn't care about anything but being with her at this point...Been there..a number of such situations..until I had to ACCEPT THIS FACT...



NO CARD GAME..That's a lie....



There you go..this is what matters for you about last night..GETTING STRONGER YOURSELF for the continued FIGHT ahead of you..Maybe this even moreso helps you to see what you are up against...



EXACTLY!!!



Not true. He called..didn't have to..knows he was wrong. He will hear it from his father and the others..if not directly then indirectly..he will hear it...he is a FAMILY MAN who stands the chance of losing his family....OW can't compete with this IN THE LONG RUN...right now, he thinks that SHE IS ALL THAT HE NEEDS... because he is AN ALIEN DRUG ADDICT but we shall see...



Yep..he will come up with some kind of nonsensical rationalization...



NO WAY..NO WAY....We are here supporting you because your H let you down...actually, I'm not a bit surprised..this is part of your LEARNING EXPERIENCE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know we luv ya, Sis....

Hang in there...

ONWARD..TODAY IS ANOTHER DAY....