Ok, Guys... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just see her as more the cunning and manipulative type..and also as being self-seeking..

Actually I do HOPE that he is spending a lot of time talking about Sis....

BECAUSE THEN HE IS NOT GETTING HIGH OFF OF HER ANYMORE....

I just don't think he does ANYTHING that HE THINKS THAT SHE WON"T LIKE and, feeling intimidated by Sis, she clearly won't enjoy talk about HIS FAMILY...

BUT..enough about HER and THEM..

ONWARD WITH SIS' PLAN A....

Sis, I wanted to comment on the animal part of all of this. We too have 2 cats (shelter rescued) that loved him best. During the time WH moved out, we got a cool dog. He felt left out of the loop with all of the animal business.

OW also had a designer pocket dog....he absolutely hates those fluffy, yipping, lap dogs.

Here we were, at home, enjoying HIS pets and now had a cool new dog that he wanted to be part of. (I know, the humans he left behind should have counted more than the pets, but oh well....fog.)

Do not underestimate the power of the animal connection. That worming episode was ideal.

LilSis:

Make sure you put some cat hair on WH when he leaves, let him pet, and hang out with cats during your meeting... RT WILL notice.

And your right Mimi, on with Plan A.

She HATES cats? never trust a person who hates cats.
i told you i wasn't like her in the ways that matter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> your H loves cats....I picked up on that int he way you were talking about all the cats in your life last night...
that's good......he's a good man in his heart.

and she has 1 of those silly little yappy dogs( no offense to the poor dog)....i guess she dresses it up in expensive sweaters and carries it around in a handbag?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
You have more power than you think.

Sis,

Just want you to know I will be praying for you and the meeting with WH today. Keep up the good work.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

LilSis,

I just wanted to comment on the different ways OW manipulate. Not all of them cringe at the mention of the wife. My FWH talked alot about him and I. That's what made her so attractive and innocent to him. She was his "counselor", he could talk to her, she listened, she was kind and caring. She cared about me and our children. She would tell him that he should try to work it out with me, she would tell him how beautiful I was and she didn't stand a chance against me, all the while continuing to spread her legs. There is still some fog left when it comes to her in the fact that apart of him still sees her as an innocent victim. She was telling him to work on his marriage he just wasn't listening, it was ALL his fault. When he would say anything negative about me she would stick up for me.

She completely played him and he is just now starting to see through some of it.

My point is, it doesn't really matter too much which way she reacts, either way will eventually backfire on her. If she gets angry she's LBing. If she tries to be nice and caring she is only reinforcing the good in you and your marriage. There is only 1 time I can recall that FWH told me OW said anything negative. She told him it made her sick when she knew he was spending time with me.

What's even funnier is after he FINALLY ended things with her she almost immediately started dating someone else (wow, she was so in love with my H!!!) anyway, FWH was still very deep in the fog when he found out and he broke NC and called her on it. He told her that even if things didn't work out with me and him that he would never go back to her b/c she had lied to him. She lied by telling him she wasn't seeing anyone else. He told her that that's the one thing they had was honesty between them (gag!!!) and she ruined that. She goes, well you were sleeping with your wife the entire time and he said, "yeah, but I never lied to you about it."!!!!!

Do you see how screwed up their logic is. Thankfully, her getting a boyfriend so soon after her and FWH ended was the best thing that could have happened. That's when FWH's fog REALLY started to clear.

Anyway, you just never know what's going on behind the scenes. You have to just keep your faith, keep to your plan and let them self destruct on their own.

The one thing that kept me sane was the fact that I never knew 100% sure that FWH was seeing her. I could kind of live in this naive world, so when FWH wasn't with me I never 100% thought he was with OW. He made very sure I never knew there was an A going on. So I knew but I didn't REALLY know. Does that make sense or does that make me sound crazy??? Anyway, I never focused too much on OW, I never put alot of thought into her. This helped me tremendously with keeping to my plan A.

When FWH would say crazy, hurtful or off the wall things I actually got to a point where I could look at him and feel sympathy for the turmoil he must have been in. I sometimes would almost laugh at the absurdity of some of it.

Sometimes you have to really find your sense of humor in some of this.

I look forward to hearing how your meeting with him goes tonight.

Just wanted to wish you luck and love for your meeting later this afternoon!

Had a bit of a keyboard spew at the suggestion to rub cat hair all over his clothes....love it! Mssillyfruffydog wouldn't like that much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyhooooo, have been searching for an old, old thread by Ark for my real life 'LilSis', as I fear she's in for a bit of a ride herself, and finally found it (after hours, I might add..she's SO going to owe me). When I reread it, I wanted to make sure you've read it too!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=029805;p=1

BEST OF LUCK THIS AFTERNOON! Woohoo!

Hope I"m not the only lifting up LilSis in prayer right now.

You're not <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Still in prayer for her myself. Will check back in later tonight and see if she has updated.

I have to go out, but I keep holding off. I just want her to be okay. I have been thinking about her (them) all day.

I pray today is the day the tide begins to change.

I have confidence in her

Oh man...

Mixed bag. It wasn't wonderful. It wasn't awful. Nothing was resolved and nothing miraculous happened. It MIGHT have been a bit of a wake up call to WH, but the fog was sooo thick.... WH was the one who arrived...clearly he had been getting high at some point...he would not look me in the eye for the first 15 minutes he was here. As a matter of fact, once he came in, he tried to say that we didn't really have anything to talk about. I said that we did. So we sat down at the kitchen table and the boys went upstairs.

I began by thanking him for being my hero and giving the speech. He was so WH-ish that he didn't comprehend, but said you're welcome. He did look me in the eye at that point. But then I "ruined the moment" by showing him some things that DS8 had written that showed he was angry and sad. (darn that reality! so inconvenient) WH teared up a little upon reading it, but clenched his jaw (determined to keep the fog in place). I said that I wanted to know what he wanted to do about the kids, because they are struggling and I can't really do this anymore. Right away, first thing, he began to tell me that I need to stop giving the kids the wrong idea and exposing them to my emotions, like with the roses and dropping off the poem. I told him that I am just showing them that I love their dad and being honest with them about how I feel. (Apparently kids don't deserve to know about emotions...that's healthy) I love him, the boys love him, this is his home, we want him to come home so we can be a family.

Since this went on for quite a while, I can't even begin to recount it in the detail I usually do. Let's just say that he (of course) REFUSED to take any responsibility. Stuff with the kids will just work out somehow (yeah, it's been going great so far...) He acknowledge that he wants what's best for the boys, but then said (with pride, almost?) that he wants what's best for him, too. I just stared...wishing that I could come up with some ideal RB comment that wouldn't just p- him off so badly he'd leave. After a minute--shock wore off--I said that I just wanted what was best for him, too.

Okay...you have TWO children that you brought into this world...and what's best for YOU is MORE IMPORTANT than these two innocent lives??? Grrrr....

He was adamant that I stop with the panties and with the roses. I told him that the roses meant a great deal to me. He acknowledged that they meant a lot. He said something about "groveling." I said I was just being me, treating him the way a wife should treat a husband. He said those overtures weren't welcome and weren't wanted. He asked it I have told my IC about what I'm doing. He said--at least twice--"I'm NOT coming home." Thank GOD that I've heard that from you all here, or I would have been crushed.

We really couldn't get to the conversation about the boys, because I pretty much maintained (calmly of course) that they need their dad at home, and he pretty much maintained that's not going to happen and that the kids will be just fine seeing him every now and again. Again, his statements were so off the wall that I can't even recall them. He did say at one point, "Do you want me to have custody?" to which I responded, "I don't want anyone to have 'custody' of our children. I want them to live with their mom and dad." He rolled his eyes, obviously thinking that I must not understand English.

I said, "The boys need a mother and a father."
WH: They have a father. I am their father. I am there. They can reach me anytime. They can call me anytime.
LS: They are just little boys! They need a father who hugs them and kisses them and is around them, who talks to them in person while eating dinner, tucks them in and is just THERE. They aren't going to pick up the phone and call, and even if they did, it wouldn't be what they really need.
WH: Well they need for you to stop confusing them.
LS: What they need is for you to stop committing adultery.
WH: That language! Does your IC know you use that language?
LS: What language? (I mean, really, it was hard not to laugh)

There was a similar exchange earlier when I had the nerve to refer to him as my "husband." He kept prefacing every remark with, "In light of what's happened..." as if it was an accident. ???

After that adultery comment he got up and said he was leaving. He went upstairs to say good-bye to the boys. I packed up some soup and cookies for him.

When he came down he stood around a minute. He asked if I had talked to IC about what it would take from me and what it would take from him if we were to try again. I said that it would be hard, but we could be happier than ever. I was confident of that.

He went down by the back door and put his shoes on. I told him again that I didn't think we had figured anything out, and I really couldn't do this. He told me that people do it all the time. I told him that we built this fort together and now I'm holding it down all on my own, and it's too much. I told him I needed him. I brought up the thing about working more hours and he--again--somehow things will just magically work out. (That's easy to say when you are not the one actually CARING for the children). He said he would do anything I needed...shoveling, vacuuming, whatever. I said all of the above. He said he would come by in the mornings and drive the boys to school if that's what I wanted.

To me, that is SOOO beside the point...just proving he IS CLUELESS. I put my head in my hands and began to cry softly. I told him that I have changed and grown as a person, but this is STILL too much. He said he was happy for me for growing. I said I am strong; I had to be--he knows where I have been. Yes, he said, I know where you've been. He closed his eyes and leaned his head on the wall and he swallowed hard...opens his eyes and he's welling up. I let that sink in a minute. Then I told him that I came out of that awful place...I'm better, stronger. He said he doesn't want to hurt me anymore, to see me fall apart again, doesn't want me to set myself up. I told him I wasn't setting myself up. I was doing what I needed to do. He, the boys, our family are worth fighting for. That I took vows and I intend to keep them and I will fight to keep them. What he sees as groveling is not...he said he didn't WANT to see it that way...I assured him it is not. I see it as keeping my vows and honoring the promise I made to him.

What about come April (final D??), he asks. I said a piece of paper does not change anything in my eyes, the eyes of God or the eyes of his family. He closed his eyes again.

I told him that I really needed him to understand that I am just doing what I have to do. That I know what I am doing is right, and he is a good person. I had made a promise to him years ago and I need to keep it...even if it makes him uncomfortable. I need to do what I need to do. I asked him to respect that. He said he would...tears in his eyes.

I thanked him again for being my hero and told him I loved him and said good bye. He left with soup and cookies in hand.

I don't know if anything made it through his fog. CLEARLY he had been schooled by RT as to what to expect and what the right answers were. I should have just let it go when I realized it was WH, not H...not even tried to reason with him. The things that affected him were seeing DS8's note, when I recounted the things that a dad does as opposed to one who is available by phone, when I reminded him of "where I've been," and when I told him in tears that I made a promise to him years ago that I intend to keep and asked him to respect that.

He's SOOO adamant. "I'm NOT coming home." Practically telling me I can't call him "my husband" or what he's doing "adultery." GOD got me through this, everyone. I kept thinking of the earlier conversation with MIL. God is working. God is working. I can't see it. I can't see his plan, I can't see the path he has laid for WH. But I KNOW it does not end with RT.

Did I do okay? NOT A SINGLE LB. I promise. Please let me know what you think about any of this.

Been thinkin' about her all afternoon... wondering if there's a time difference between where she is and Texas. Praying for WH's heart to melt towards LilSis and grow cold towards that "other".

Oops! I didn't realize you'd posted! Very quick read but one thing stood out for me:

"He was adamant that I stop with the panties and with the roses... He said something about "groveling."

I can almost promise you this came from RT.

Now I bow out to the experts.

Go back to the part where he aske dyou what it would take for you and for HIM if you were to try again?
That sounds HUGE to me....did I misunderstand?

Hey, Sis.

I'll leave the advice to the experts, just wanted you to know that my then-WH and I had similar conversations. He said the same things. No way, no chance, stop trying, he didn't appreciate it, could never love me again, etc. .... and I kept saying that I meant my vows, I chose to love, etc. (I sometimes got a little too preachy with it all)....

And would come out of those conversations feeling the same way -- unsure, not really bad or good, not the breakthrough that I'd been hoping for ..... all those things.

But some of it did get through.
I see a lot more hope in your conversation than you might.

His welling up ...
His cringing at the "adultery" word....
Him not being able to even bring up the "d" word....
And him ASKING WHAT IT WOULD TAKE from each of you to fix things!!!!!

I see some hope in all those things.

I'm sure it took a lot out of you, though .... so take good care of yourself tonight. A glass of wine, a fun movie with the kids, a nice hot bubble bath .... do something good for you.

Nice job Lil Sis. I think you did great.
It sounds like your WH wants to discourage you from even trying. He asked if you had asked your IC how much it would take from each of you to try again? Do you think he meant that in a way to find out if you know how hard it will be to put things back together? That's the sense I got from the question...or did it seem that he was sincerely wondering if things could actually be fixed from the IC point of view? It's hard to tell, the way I read it could be way off base. He mentioned your IC more than one, and seemed to be hinting at your emotional well being by saying things like "I don't want you to set yourself up"...From the things he said it sounds like he wants to have an amicable relationship with you but wants to maintain that he can be a parent while having a relationship outside of marriage. I really feel a solid Plan B (whenever you are ready) will be what it takes to see if WH will come around.
I think you did great.

Well now you know she grilled him about last night. He wouldn't look at you because he left last night high on you, and she honed right in on it.

She trotted out all the justifications that they have used to rationalize their infidelity, I'm sure she knows his rewrites of history by heart.

Don't worry LilSis, he's being sucked toward the fence, but batten down the hatches because as she feels him slipping toward you she's going to wage the fight of her life.

That is a mixed bag, isn't it?


That wasn't 'pride' IMO. That was a statement force-fed to him by SheWithFakeDog. Take that to the bank.




Okay, but the problem is that right now what means a great deal to you seems to LB him, and it's turning into an issue. I think I'd try another tactic. Make sure you read that thread of Ark's that I linked for you, okay? I think you'll really like it!





Another cute term no doubt used by TheOneWhoAccesserizesWithCanines. Don't give it another thought.



Don't educate him. He's a *W* person and I think they are required by law to suffer from a complex rectal-cranial inversion. A rectal-cranial inversion is when you think with your butt. A complex rectal-cranial inversion is when you think with your butt, but, unfortunately, you're a [censored]. His thought process isn't tracking correctly right now, and no amount of what appears to you as common sense is going to track with him.




Fogspeak English is a bit hard to understand. lol!



R.O.F.L.M.A.O!!!!!



AH! This is kind of amazing considering the rest of the conversation. I love this! LOVE THIS!!




You're talking 'responsibilities' and he's talking D. BlahBlahBlah. Let it go in one ear and out the other (although this could be a bit more difficult for you than it is for an active wayward...as you actually have a brain in between said ears).


Excellent. And when he shows up, the house will be clean and smelling of homecooking, and you and the children will be cheerful and a 'family'. He, OTOH, will have to do his work and leave unless he takes you up on your invites to have dinner/lunch/supper/movie/whatever!




Good!





He doesn't see it that way.....bet you a donut!! That word came straight from FakeDogPerson.




Good! You don't talk D, you only talk Marriage.


I'm going to be interested in what the pros say.

Bless you, LilSis!!!!