yep....that's how my H fell for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

LilSis:

I am so disappointed that you were so attacked this past evening. MB'ers! Watch your keyboards! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

You certainly do not need that.

Your a Democrat? Great! I'm a Republican. (More like a crunchy CON!) But my BS is a Democrat. Do we have spirited discussions? Oh yes. And I still enjoy them. And sometimes, I even let her win... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That person you were having discussions with for 14 years was your H. The WH is not that person. If and when H comes back, you can have those conversations again.

Your H didn't leave the M because of that. He left for other reasons. Entirely his own. I believe that you have recognized those areas in yourself that may have contributed to his conclusions, and you have created the new, better LilSis.

You just have to continue to show via Plan A, those changes to WH. He may be blind to some of them, but he is aware of the changes you have made.

You are doing great. Ignore some of the debate around here. Everyone around here wants to take the credit for successfully guiding you to a recovering M. But no one here is going to give you that path. The full path. Each of us may give you a piece of it. But you get to walk the yellow brick road. As you are constructing it.

And as I said before, your WH may not be worthy of you when you are done. But you feel that he is now, and that is all that matters.

Please let me begin by telling everyone how grateful I have been for the support, good wishes and prayers that I have received from so many of you. I have had a lot of time to reflect on last night’s discussion. Perhaps it was enlightening in a way that no one intended. I’d like to share with you the conclusions that I have come to.

This experience—the whole experience—has changed me irrevocably. I AM, without a doubt, a different person. Moreover, I am a BETTER person. I was a good person before, and happy and content enough with myself, but I have grown and stretched in ways that I never imagined. I could no longer be happy and content being the person that I WAS.

One of the ways that I have CLEARLY grown is in my ability to be more open, more caring, more giving of myself. I am willing and desirous of sharing that growth with my H; I’d love the opportunity to be sexy, playful, and fun with him. Those changes are good and admirable, and feel good to me. However, I am NOT willing to sacrifice the parts of myself that were good and admirable BEFORE any of this occurred. I am also NOT willing to “settle” for a relationship in which I cannot feel free to express—fully and openly—the person that I am.

I enjoy the growth that I have seen in myself…and I want that to continue. At the same time, I do not want to lose or DIMINISH my OTHER good qualities…in fact, I want those qualities to continue to grow as well.

If you all are telling me that even after going through the pain of betrayal, after beating my taker into submission for the good of Plan A, after growing and changing and discovering new aspects to my self, after going through the struggles of recovery (assuming it would ever get to that point)…after all that…that I would be left with an H with such a fragile ego that I cannot be who *I* am…I don’t know if it’s worth it.

I do not want to go through the rest of my life looking over my shoulder for the next simpering, mincing woman who allows my H to “feel like a man” to the extent that he would betray me yet again. Neither do I want to spend the rest of my life feeling like I have to BE simpering and mincing just to “hold on” to my H. I want an equal partner…someone who has enough confidence and self-worth that he is not threatened by me, who in fact respects me and admires me for my intelligence and thoughtfulness. If WH is NO LONGER that man, then maybe he is not worth having…because it is CRITICALLY important to me that I can have intimate, heart-felt conversations with my H about issues and spirituality and current events….all that LIFE has to offer! I want to feel admired, valued and loved for WHO I AM…all of me…including my opinions, my intellect, my feelings and my foibles.

I know that now is not the time to expect ANYTHING from WH. But…if what you are telling me is true, then I cannot look forward to having that, even in the future, even if we ever get the chance to recover.

Just to be clear…WH did value, admire and respect me for those qualities when we met. If those qualities are NO LONGER what he desires in a spouse, then maybe RT is the right woman for him. And also…to be clear…my relationship with my H has not historically been one in which I am intellectually competitive, pushy, or “holier than thou.” We simply enjoyed one another’s company, enjoyed conversing, enjoyed stimulating each other intellectually.

That is what I wanted before I met H, it is what I found in H, it is what I STILL want…and I am not willing to give that up…because then I would not be GROWING as a person…I would be settling.

SO PLEASE TELL ME…if you HONESTLY BELIEVE that I CANNOT EXPECT TO HAVE THAT AGAIN with my H (assuming we get to recovery), then I might as well quit right now. I am eager and willing to become more of a wife, a better wife…but I am not willing to be less of ME.

It's your choice, Sis.

What I've learned and I believe my H has learned, too, is that MARRIAGE is not about just being who YOU are. In order to be happily married which is a WONDERFUL and JOYOUS and many positive things, it takes meeting EACH OTHERS primary EMOTIONAL NEEDS...not just giving in to your own TAKER. Although your primary need may be CONVERSATION, your H's needs seem to be ADMIRATION, SF or whatever. I think one' ENs may change over time. I, personally, was wrong in ASSUMING that my H's ENs were the same as mine. How self-righteous and judgmental of me to not accept him as he is..to expect him to be WHO I WANTED HIM TO BE. I have learned to ACCEPT HIM FOR WHO HE IS as he ACCEPTS ME...it becomes a two-way street..with YOU ACCEPTING HIM and HIM ACCEPTING YOU. Right now, in PLAN A, you are given the charge to only employ YOUR GIVER to exhibit to him that you can meet his PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS. If you do not choose to meet those needs, NO you will not be happily married to him. You will need to be in relationship with someone who you desire to meet HIS EMOTIONAL NEEDS. For me, I have desired and chosen to be with MY HUSBAND. I have chosen to ACCEPT HIM FOR WHO HE IS. This has been a MAJOR, MAJOR LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR ME!!!! This is the overall change that I have made as a wife.



You see, you may need to ACCEPT that your H is INSECURE. I've learned this about my H and now ACCEPT that he was hiding this behind a facade...but he accepts me, too..because I now meet his primary ENs and he meets mine. I'm sure Sis that you have frailties just as your H has his weaknesses that he would want you to accept.



Do you think you can make someone into who you want them to be? I used to think that, too. It is important to ACCEPT him or whoever you may be with AS HE IS.

My H needs my help with his insecurity. That makes him happy in living his life. I need his help with a lot, a lot of things. WE NOW WORK TOGETHER AS A TEAM..me helping him, him helping me....



Yes, he ENJOYED CONVERSATIONS with you but this is CLEARLY NOT HIS PRIMARY EN...although it may be yours....If you cannot ACCEPT him for who is and SHE CAN then he does belong with her and will be happier with her or any other woman that does.

I came to terms with this myself about my H. The OW did give the PRETENSE of ACCEPTING HIM. I REALLY DO ACCEPT HIM. I've been here to MB and studied these principles, changed myself and have apply them DAILY.



Bottom line, being a better wife is effectively meeting HIS PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS..not the EMOTIONAL NEEDS that YOU PREFER TO BE HIS PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS...

Make sense?

This weekend my H and I were together for extended periods with both of our sons. This is the first time in years that all of us have been together. I was even more aware of what I've been sharing with you this morning. Our sons would complain to me about this or that about their D, disrespectfuly triangling me, expecting me to agree with them, an old dysfunctional pattern. I had to make it clear to them: "This is the way your D is...you have to ACCEPT him for who he is..." Who is to say that the way I am is the RIGHT WAY? (ALMOST A DIRECT QUOTE FROM STEVE HARLEY to me). So sadly for me, our sons grew up believing that I was ALWAYS RIGHT and I went along with it. That is so sad for me to admit. I'm shaking as I type this. I'm thankful that God has given me the opportunity to undo this and for us to FINALLY BE A HAPPY FAMILY with us looking forward to DILs and GRANDKIDS ONE DAY....

I know I keep giving reading assignments but I have found BIBLIOTHERAPY to be so helpful to me.

If you have not already, I think it's IMPERATIVE for you to read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS by DR. HARLEY.

It is from this book that I have gained my point of view.

LilSis:

You are going through all this growth.

Your WH is an Alien right now.

When your H returns, He will be a different man. A man much like he has before, but different. How divergent will he be from what he used to be?

I, personnally, am a much different person than I was pre-A. And during the A. (DUH!) But the advice I try to provide now is significantly different from what I would have ever offered pre-DDay. KWIM?

But your H has to have that "moment of clarity" when he decides to return to LilSis.

Will He? I hope so. Because than all your effort will be worth it.

And then the two of you can start working on an Affair-proof M to avoid the next simpering, mincing woman to attract your H.

But if he returns like this:

WH did value, admire and respect me for those qualities and If those qualities are NO LONGER what he desires in a spouse, then maybe RT is the right woman for him.

Then all your effort will be for naught. And, I cannot predict that future. Nor can you. But you have a plan to put it back together. A Plan that has a high percentage of success. If both parties buy in. And WH's chips are not on the table yet. When they get to the table, We will know better what he can do.

And to fully answer your question?

Do I HONESTLY BELIEVE that you cannot have it again?

Yes. I honestly believe that you can. And it may even be better than it was. I believe that your H is a good man. He has the "Stockholm Syndrome" right now and Identifying with his OW. But when he walks out of that, and back into your arms, and puts all his chips in, it can be great again.

And you have Marsh, Mimi, Mel, Pep, the Wonderings and others around here that can attest to that. I just happen to be on the otherside of the aisle in most of these conversations because of what I did.

Take heart, LilSis. You are getting tons of advice because everyone here thinks you are doing a wonderful job, and we WANT your marriage to recover. So people are just thinking of ANYTHING that you could do better. It is a measure of caring, but I'm sure, EXTREMELY frustrating to you.

I'm like you. If I had to change my whole being, I'd rather get a D and move on. In fact, I did.


The affair will end. Take care of YOU.

LilSis:

I have read HNHN. It made all the difference in the world....

When your H returns, take him to a MB weekend. Your H will be amazed by the insight provided there. And you will be reinforced in the lessons you have learned around here.

And I think another appointment with SH may be in order.

((((LilSIS))))

LG

Do I hear Helen Reddy belting out "I AM WOMAN, HEAR ME ROAR" in the background?? BTDT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No one has ever told you to be simpering and mincing, LS. The alternative to being competitive and ballbusting is most certainly NOT "simpering" and "mincing," if that is what you think. Be assured that is not what we are saying. Seriously, do you think me, Pepperband, Mimi or noodle are simpering women? C'mon! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What we are trying to point out here is that perhaps you have believed certain social stereotypes about women's role in marriages. I know I sure did. I thought my dazzling intellect and my longwinded "discussions" about the evils of <insert latest current event> were most appealing. But the only person who was impressed was ME. What my H wanted was ROMANCE. A good FISHING PARTNER. Lots of SEX. My political opinions did not make up for any of that.

It seems that intellect is valued to the exclusion of the things that really make a marriage enjoyable and strong, such as affection, admiration, appearance, companionship, romance. That is how the OW was able to penetrate your marriage and attract your H. The lack thereof made your marriage vulnerable to an attack. And that tells me that those things are important to your H.

After all, the goal here is to LEARN to meet your spouse's needs. Doing what makes HIM feel happy.

And maybe it is true that one of your H's needs is CONVERSATION, which would give you the outlet you so desire to express your "intellect," but I don't believe it is a top need of his. You clearly place a much higher value on it than he does. But, right now the goal is to learn to meet his needs. You have no guarantees that your needs will be met in the future, but that is a risk you were willing to take when you made the decision to fight for your marriage.

So please relax, LS. We might all be hoochie mamas here, but we are NOT wilting wallflowers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mimi, that post was just PERFECT! You hit it right on the head! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"What my H wanted was ROMANCE. A good FISHING PARTNER. Lots of SEX."

Must be a left-coast thing, but that makes me cringe.

pps 156-158..THE ADMIRATION CHAPTER

"..A woman needs to appreciate her husband for what he already is, not for what he could become, if he lived up to her standards.
For some men-those with fragile self-images-admiration also helps them believe in themselves....
Behind every man should be an admiring wife.A man simply thrives on a woman's admiration. To a great extent men owe gratitude to their wives for this kind of emotional support, for without it, their confidence-the major source of their success-erodes and eventually crumbles. "

Dr. Harley says that this is NORMAL for men and I find this viewpoint is backed up in almost every book that I have read about MANHOOD over the past few years.

Since it is quite possible that you may not read other threads at this time... I wanted to also post this here... and I will take my leave again.

And I am fine with being only giver, in Plan A. But from what you were saying last night, I should not expect that I can have MY NEEDS met…or that I have to be someone that I am not…in order to meet HIS needs. So let’s say his primary need is admiration. Does admiration mean never disagreeing with him? Does it mean that I can’t express myself if he behaves in a way that I DO NOT admire—because that doesn’t sound very open and honest? Does it mean that I have to spend my whole life looking out for the next homewrecker who decides to blow boat-loads of sunshine? Can’t I just love him and admire him for who he is, for his strength and intelligence and integrity, even for his vulnerabilities? Because THAT’S honest. It would be DISHONEST and DISRESPECTFUL for me to expect that he is unable to handle who *I* am.


No problem…I WANT to know what his insecurities are…that is simply HONEST! And I’ve got boat-loads of insecurities (clearly!).

No, not at all. And if he is also able to get to a point where he is meeting my needs as well, then we are good. However…what I’m trying to determine is if our ENs are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. If he requires admiration to the DEGREE that I have to be DISHONEST…that’s a dealbreaker, it’s not a real marriage. Maybe I’m not being clear….I don’t know quite how to articulate it. Maybe my question is…can Admiration (his need) and Conversation (my need) coexist? Because Admiration is one way, and conversation is two way.

I’m still not communicating it well…work with me here.

Again, I can accept that conversation is not his primary EN (I wouldn’t EXPECT it to be, either, BTW), but does the fact that it IS one of MINE…coupled with the fact that one of HIS is likely admiration…can we ever strike a balance? Maybe it’s a question I can only answer myself…but is it possible to be honest with someone who thrives chiefly on admiration? Do you end up filtering EVERY interaction through that lens? Are you constantly on guard…worrying that you may do something that he interprets as NOT admiring of him? Or ALWAYS on the lookout for other women who shower him with false or insincere admiration? And feeling the need to compete with that?

Maybe my question is…does it come naturally…I would think it would…as it did early in our relationship…but I need to have a sense of it. AGAIN…I ACCEPT that his primary needs are not the same as mine…but I am concerned that our differing primary needs may be in conflict.

Does this make ANY sense. I’m trying to process this…NOT ARGUE with you or DISAGREE with you. Are you okay with that?

AND I've been researching and devouring books about MANHOOD because I was SOOOO DEAD WRONG in my mindset about what A MAN WANTS AND A MAN NEEDS.

I had to ADD these behaviors to what I was already doing as a wife so I think I've become ALMOST PERFECT in his eyes. Really, my H is SOOOO "IN LOVE" with me.

Sis, I forgot to add that...I'm agreeing with what you said last night. It does take the TOTAL PACKAGE...continuing to meet the needs that you were meeting..CONVERSATION, DOMESTIC SUPPORT, PHYSICAL APPEARANCE, etc...but in order to be HAPPILY MARRIED it is imperative to meet HIS PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS in addition to those needs....

MB helped me to understand after 30 or so years of marriage what my H's primary ENs ARE....

Sis, I bet you USED to meet those needs when you first met your H but for whatever reasons you STOPPED... Steve helped me to understand this...Your WH was probably was MOST ATTRACTED to you way back then because you met those needs. He must have felt that YOU LIFTED HIM UP..ADMIRED HIM...were NOT CRITICAL OF HIM...NEEDED HIM..all those things that seem to be less true NOW....

My response to Steve: "Why didn't he tell me that HE NEEDED that?" Steve's response: "Did he have to TELL you when he was courting you and you first fell in love with him..you WORKED at it didn't you?" That's what RT is doing..WORKING IT...

Mimi, SELF-PROCLAIMED HOOCHIE MAMA...Really... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

how OW wooed my H is as old as the hills
part one:

when 2 people are starting to get to know each other

they share their stories
their growing up stories
their most embarrasing moment stories
their first broken heart story
their worst nightmare stories

my H is, by nature, a story-teller
he's got some pretty good ones too
who he's worked with
who he saw doing what on the set ... juicy stories ... some go back to his days on CHiPs ... yeah, that's what I said ... we're THAT old !!!

after 14 years, I had heard all and I do mean ALL of his stories MORE THAN ONCE

Sis,

I'm going to have to leave in a few minutes.

I just read your post and I want to take the time to respond to you.

I don't see you as arguing.

I've been right where you are.

Read over my post again though and NOTE MY EXPLANATION for the way our marriage is NOW. I meet my H's ENs AND he meets mine. It's reciprocal. The more and better that I meet HIS NEEDS...the more and better he meets MINE. That's where the PRINCIPLE OF BEING OPEN AND HONEST comes in THE FOUR RULES OF A SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE. All of this is Harley stuff not coming from me.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html

part two:

when I was hearing H tell one of his stories (again) to someone else
I might walk away
I might make a comment "I think you've told that one"

I am 100% CERTAIN I made it VERY clear
I was tired of his stories
and I was no longer interested

part three:

enter OW

H's stories are new/fresh/funny/smart/exciting

she sits for hours (on the phone at first) with adoring attention

she laughs
she asks for more
and she is probably not being phony about this, his stories ARE good, anyone would enjoy them

except his wife, that is

Well hang on just a minute here before I get lumped into the group hug...

I understand what LS is saying and I largely agree.

When my H changed into the alien he became someone I couldn't respect. There was no WAY I was going to change and accomodate his new manner of living or his new values.

Perhaps he had some insecutities that were stoked and stroked and vulnerable?

Boo frickedy hoo...we all have insecurities and I don't consider it my job to manage his feelings for him.

I believe in meeting your partners needs but I also think there are limits and reasonable expectations.

OW was successfull basically because she WAS willing to become a simpering slag and *because he chose to be weak and he chose to believe a flattering lie and he chose to become a liar* I don't agree that the solution is for LS to become MORE like OW.

I think that WS is going to have to GET OVER himself and rejoin the rest of the grownups in a world where we are not always first, not always best, and not always satisfied immediately..and [this is critical] the person responsible for being vigilant about guarding our heart is US before he will be able to shake lose of the power of the affair.

Personally I can't RESPECT a man who requires the woman in his life to run ahead of him clearing the road and putting up PSAs to stroke his ego along the way.

Possibly she might be willing to make the rest of her life about satisfying him and he might BE satisfied with such an arrangment and NOT be satisfied with anything less...and if it were ME...I'd stick a bow on his butt and drop his junk at her house because I certainly have no intention of living that way nor would I recommend it for anyone else.

I believe that WSdom is a sickness of selfishness...a real live mental illness in which a person has become extremely self absorbed and possibly borderline narcissistic.

If they stay that way who would WANT them?